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Lord Zentei
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Post by Lord Zentei »

Stas Bush wrote:
Lord Zentei wrote:You deem that the consolidation of power would have been impossible without the Civil War, what with Lenin's radical course and rejection of any overtures to the Mensheviks and most of the Socialist Revolutionaries, insisting on a Communist revolition?
The socialist revolution has already happened. Note that the Soviets themselves were pretty much divided.
That was not my point. Communist revolution does not equate to socialist revolution.
Stas Bush wrote:
Lord Zentei wrote:And why should the Assembly hand over all power to the soviets? They represented their constituents.
The Assembly tried to ban Soviet power and it's representation (congress of Soviets) alltogether.
Obviously, since the soviets were clamouring for all power being handed to them.
Stas Bush wrote:
Lord Zentei wrote:Seriously, the war started because the Bolsheviks wanted more power for the soviets (where the Bolsheviks held more influence) than the other factions were willing to give.
The October revolution was done with the idea of Soviet power. The other factions were willing to ban Soviet power which was unacceptable (to both Bolsheviks and left Eser). The Soviet power was much more potent and had a wider population appeal anyway, which is why the supporters of the constituent assembly lost - both the political struggle and the Civil War. The Whites were not even a solid group of Assembly supporters - more like a rag-tag band of anarchists, monarchists, Assembly supporters, military coupists acting against the Soviet power each for their own reasons and goals. The Bolsheviks managed to get a revolutionary army of 5,000,000 and the support of Soviets in densely-populated regions, while the Whites never managed to get more than several hundred thousand and relied on foreign intervents for supplies. The war was effectively a war between Soviets and their enemies. The Soviets won the Civil War, and there was not a shred of alternative actually since the Whites were weak, disunified and pursued various goals from the get-go.
And yet, the Bolsheviks received only 25% of the general vote to the Assembly. It was their united front and organization that allowed them victory.
Stas Bush wrote:The Soviets which initially could include any individual elected by locals, no matter Bolshevik or not, after the opposition from those favouring the Constituent Assembly as a power base (and thus seeking to undo the goal of the October Revolution), became thus increasingly less inclusive. Still a good measure of independence remained in their actions in the Lenin days and through the NEP.
I would think that since they were set up to protect specific interest groups would mean that they became less inclusive as time progressed.
Stas Bush wrote:
Lord Zentei wrote:Adding more complication to balance an unneccesary complication, that wouldn't be as effective as simply elimintating the initial complication.
That's downright silly, didn't expect that. The idea would be circumventing lobbyism and monetary influence on power, giving the commoner more leverage over power structures. What good is "eliminating the initial complication" if we don't achieve the needed goal? Hell, you could argue that democracy itself is an "unnecessary complication" if you don't take the goals for which the system was made into account.
:roll: No, it is not silly, and your analogy is flawed. The point remains that the heirachy of councils you describe is inefficient and disallows elimination of unproductive manufacturing, since they are wholly dependany on interest groups whose vested interest is in the continuation of such production. Eliminating this hierachy does away with this inefficiency.

And as I have already explained, the number of layers reduces the influence of the individual citizen to the extent that it becomes all but meaningless in any case.
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K. A. Pital
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Post by K. A. Pital »

Communist revolution does not equate to socialist revolution.
There are no communist revolutions, and have never been. IIRC not even one communist or socialist party has called it's revolution "communist". The Revolution has always been known as socialist.
Obviously, since the soviets were clamouring for all power being handed to them.
And rightly so. The whole point of the October Revolution was to overthrow the government and put the power of the Soviets. What good would be a new government which would not recognise this power?
And yet, the Bolsheviks received only 25% of the general vote to the Assembly
The Eser received most of the votes (40%), and the Bolsheviks came second (23%), but only ~50% of the population even voted in the Assembly elections. The right Eser were also a political party - apparently with a larger support base than the Bolsheviks if we go purely by Assembly election results. So the idea that Bolsheviks won simply because they were organized isn't all there is - the Bolsheviks were opposed by a likewise organized party, the right Eser. Moreover, the Bolsheviks were opposed by two other organized parties - Mensheviks and Cadets. Admittedly, they were support-less marginals (Mensheviks got 2,3% of the vote and the Cadets 4,7%), but they joined the Eser which held 40% of the votes in opposition to Bolsheviks.

There was primarily a conflict between Bolsheviks/Left eser representing Soviet power and the Right eser representing the Assembly, because other groups were just marginal and didn't matter. Only in the civil war did various monarchist morons spring up, there were no monarchist forces in the Assembly neither were there any of them in the Councils.

The Bolsheviks lost the Assembly to Eser, but the Eser were not supporting Soviet power.
I would think that since they were set up to protect specific interest groups would mean that they became less inclusive as time progressed.
Workers and peasants who composed like what, 99% of Russian Empire's population, were "special interest groups"? :?
The point remains that the heirachy of councils you describe is inefficient and disallows elimination of unproductive manufacturing, since they are wholly dependany on interest groups whose vested interest is in the continuation of such production.
That's why I said you should have other special interest groups gathered from the likewise general citizens as consumer councils. If we eliminate both, we are left with the same situation we started out with.
And as I have already explained, the number of layers reduces the influence of the individual citizen to the extent that it becomes all but meaningless in any case.
Why is that, really? If there are regular and free alternative elections into the councils, in what way is the general citizen disempowered? If he doesn't like the delegates his particular Council sends to the Congress, he can ditch his Council or the members in this Council which he knows voted to send the said delegate.
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Lord Zentei
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Post by Lord Zentei »

Stas Bush wrote:
Communist revolution does not equate to socialist revolution.
There are no communist revolutions, and have never been. IIRC not even one communist or socialist party has called it's revolution "communist". The Revolution has always been known as socialist.
Never have been and never will be. But this is wrangling over semantics: Lenin's aim was a communist revolution, which not everyone wanted.
Stas Bush wrote:
Obviously, since the soviets were clamouring for all power being handed to them.
And rightly so. The whole point of the October Revolution was to overthrow the government and put the power of the Soviets. What good would be a new government which would not recognise this power?
Oh? I rather got the impression that there were divided opinions on what was to follow the collapse of the monarchy.
Stas Bush wrote:
And yet, the Bolsheviks received only 25% of the general vote to the Assembly
The Eser received most of the votes (40%), and the Bolsheviks came second (23%), but only ~50% of the population even voted in the Assembly elections. The right Eser were also a political party - apparently with a larger support base than the Bolsheviks if we go purely by Assembly election results. So the idea that Bolsheviks won simply because they were organized isn't all there is - the Bolsheviks were opposed by a likewise organized party, the right Eser. Moreover, the Bolsheviks were opposed by two other organized parties - Mensheviks and Cadets. Admittedly, they were support-less marginals (Mensheviks got 2,3% of the vote and the Cadets 4,7%), but they joined the Eser which held 40% of the votes in opposition to Bolsheviks.
The Mensheviks were hardly as organized as the Bolsheviks. A hardcore of disciplined party members with a broad base of hangers on was Lenin's model, as opposed to a party with a wide membership which was the Menshevik model. And the Eser too, yes?
Stas Bush wrote:
I would think that since they were set up to protect specific interest groups would mean that they became less inclusive as time progressed.
Workers and peasants who composed like what, 99% of Russian Empire's population, were "special interest groups"? :?
Yes: specific groups of them, that is. When I refer to "special interests" in this context, I am referring to the workers of particular factories and in their capacity as workers.
Stas Bush wrote:
The point remains that the heirachy of councils you describe is inefficient and disallows elimination of unproductive manufacturing, since they are wholly dependany on interest groups whose vested interest is in the continuation of such production.
That's why I said you should have other special interest groups gathered from the likewise general citizens as consumer councils. If we eliminate both, we are left with the same situation we started out with.
By the "same situation we started out with" you refer to the situation w/o any councils? If so they are pretty much redundant are they not?

And a beurocracy is always less rapid in its responses to the citizens themselves. How often were you planning on holding council meetings and elections?
Stas Bush wrote:
And as I have already explained, the number of layers reduces the influence of the individual citizen to the extent that it becomes all but meaningless in any case.
Why is that, really? If there are regular and free alternative elections into the councils, in what way is the general citizen disempowered? If he doesn't like the delegates his particular Council sends to the Congress, he can ditch his Council or the members in this Council which he knows voted to send the said delegate.
Not really, since his local council's actions vis a vis numerous local actions also must weigh into his descision. And there are more than two layers in the heirachy.
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Post by K. A. Pital »

Lord Zentei wrote:Never have been and never will be. But this is wrangling over semantics: Lenin's aim was a communist revolution, which not everyone wanted.
How is that "semantics"? The October Revolution of 1917 has already happened. Soviets took power. The Assembly was allowed to gather but the Eser tried to undo the Soviet power and thus the October Revolution itself. There was no other "revolution" which Lenin "aimed" for, his revolution already happened and the Eser wanted to reverse that.
Lord Zentei wrote:Oh? I rather got the impression that there were divided opinions on what was to follow the collapse of the monarchy.
You're kinda late with dates again. The October Revolution already overthrew the provisional government under the "all power to the Soviets" motto. The Assembly was running under Soviet power already. It tried to de-legitimize Soviet power and undo the October Revolution which was done by Bolsheviks and Left Eser.
Lord Zentei wrote:The Mensheviks were hardly as organized as the Bolsheviks.
They also got miniscule results in the elections to the Assembly. And the Eser were badly organized? :? I don't think so. In any case, there were organized forces with apparent large support of the masses. Only two of them had support large enough to actually make a point in the assembly (Eser and Bolsheviks), and they were organized rivals. The fact that someone was organized better and someone was organized worse can only mean that the Eser simply failed to either rally their supporters in the Civil War, or there were not so many supporting them in the first place.
Lord Zentei wrote:When I refer to "special interests" in this context, I am referring to the workers of particular factories and in their capacity as workers
But, weren't the Soviets so reformed as to have larger Soviets of urban centers and villages and not of individual factories quite shortly after the Soviet power was instated? :? I thought so, the Delegates to Congress were sent from territorial Soviets. They were composed of various workers but not of a single factory. The Soviets essentially became local representative bodies which was bolstered through the 1918 constitution. You might ask how are they different from non-Soviet representative bodies? Simple - the Soviet bodies only allowed working citizens to be elected.
Lord Zentei wrote:And a beurocracy is always less rapid in its responses to the citizens themselves. How often were you planning on holding council meetings and elections?
There was a certain number of inter-Council Congresses which had to be run in a year IIRC (the All-Russian Congress was to be run no less than 2 times a year, and limits on local Congresses too), in the Constitution, and you could run elections to local councils every year, elections to higher councils each 4 or 5 years.
Lord Zentei wrote:Not really, since his local council's actions vis a vis numerous local actions also must weigh into his descision. And there are more than two layers in the heirachy.
Well, isn't that making sense that local representatives' actions should also influence the citizen's opinion, as opposed to mere PR campaigns of a party? :? And doesn't it influence his choice anyway in rep.democracy likewise, when a citizen might vote Republican in national elections just because his local Republican rep. is favoured by him? :?
As for layers, there's actually only two or three. There's either directly Soviet => Supreme Congress of Soviets, or Soviet => Local Congress => Supreme Congress depending on the situation. All voting for delegates was deemed to be open and public, i.e. everyone should be informed on how the delegates of Council A voted and whom they sent to the Congress, and how the Congresses' membres vote, too. This was to ensure that once in the Congress, the deputees would not forget the people who delegated them.
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Post by Lord Zentei »

Stas Bush wrote:
Lord Zentei wrote:Never have been and never will be. But this is wrangling over semantics: Lenin's aim was a communist revolution, which not everyone wanted.
How is that "semantics"? The October Revolution of 1917 has already happened. Soviets took power. The Assembly was allowed to gather but the Eser tried to undo the Soviet power and thus the October Revolution itself. There was no other "revolution" which Lenin "aimed" for, his revolution already happened and the Eser wanted to reverse that.
Lord Zentei wrote:Oh? I rather got the impression that there were divided opinions on what was to follow the collapse of the monarchy.
You're kinda late with dates again. The October Revolution already overthrew the provisional government under the "all power to the Soviets" motto. The Assembly was running under Soviet power already. It tried to de-legitimize Soviet power and undo the October Revolution which was done by Bolsheviks and Left Eser.
The October revolution was undertaken with a broad base of factions not all of which saw all power to the soviets as the desired end result, was what I perceived.
Stas Bush wrote:
Lord Zentei wrote:The Mensheviks were hardly as organized as the Bolsheviks.
They also got miniscule results in the elections to the Assembly. And the Eser were badly organized? :? I don't think so. In any case, there were organized forces with apparent large support of the masses. Only two of them had support large enough to actually make a point in the assembly (Eser and Bolsheviks), and they were organized rivals. The fact that someone was organized better and someone was organized worse can only mean that the Eser simply failed to either rally their supporters in the Civil War, or there were not so many supporting them in the first place.
Yes, the Mensheviks got what, 3%? They were neither popular nor organized. The Eser OTOH received much support, though that does not automatically imply a tight party organization.
Stas Bush wrote:
Lord Zentei wrote:When I refer to "special interests" in this context, I am referring to the workers of particular factories and in their capacity as workers
But, weren't the Soviets so reformed as to have larger Soviets of urban centers and villages and not of individual factories quite shortly after the Soviet power was instated? :? I thought so, the Delegates to Congress were sent from territorial Soviets. They were composed of various workers but not of a single factory. The Soviets essentially became local representative bodies which was bolstered through the 1918 constitution. You might ask how are they different from non-Soviet representative bodies? Simple - the Soviet bodies only allowed working citizens to be elected.
Wait, you're saying that the factory soviets did not exist by 1922 and/or they did not have voting power to the local soviets? :?
Stas Bush wrote:
Lord Zentei wrote:And a beurocracy is always less rapid in its responses to the citizens themselves. How often were you planning on holding council meetings and elections?
There was a certain number of inter-Council Congresses which had to be run in a year IIRC (the All-Russian Congress was to be run no less than 2 times a year, and limits on local Congresses too), in the Constitution, and you could run elections to local councils every year, elections to higher councils each 4 or 5 years.
Well. In the absence of such a beurocracy, feedback from consumers and investors happens realtime.
Stas Bush wrote:
Lord Zentei wrote:Not really, since his local council's actions vis a vis numerous local actions also must weigh into his descision. And there are more than two layers in the heirachy.
Well, isn't that making sense that local representatives' actions should also influence the citizen's opinion, as opposed to mere PR campaigns of a party? :?
:wtf: Don't follow. My point was that the citizen must weigh his choice of vote between local, regional and national interests. If he likes the local actions and not the selection to higher soviets, what does he do?
Stas Bush wrote:And doesn't it influence his choice anyway in rep.democracy likewise, when a citizen might vote Republican in national elections just because his local Republican rep. is favoured by him? :?
In a representative democracy there are usually seperate elections to each level of government, rather than the local government electing regional governments electing national governments, since the same candidates don't neccesarily represent one's interests best in all arenas.
Stas Bush wrote:As for layers, there's actually only two or three. There's either directly Soviet => Supreme Congress of Soviets, or Soviet => Local Congress => Supreme Congress depending on the situation. All voting for delegates was deemed to be open and public, i.e. everyone should be informed on how the delegates of Council A voted and whom they sent to the Congress, and how the Congresses' membres vote, too. This was to ensure that once in the Congress, the deputees would not forget the people who delegated them.
Not the people who delegated them, but the people who delegated the people who delegated the people who delegated them. At each of these steps, your ability to replace the delegates at the end of the chain is diminished.
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K. A. Pital
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Post by K. A. Pital »

Lord Zentei wrote:The October revolution was undertaken with a broad base of factions
No, it was undertaken by Bolsheviks and left Eser who were bold enough to take power relying on the Soviets. Other parties didn't participate in the Revolution, and thus sought to undo it - while at the same time making use of the absence of the common enemy (provisional government). Basically they had the Bolsheviks and left Eser using the support of worker Soviets removing the Provisional Government, and then they (right Eser) step up and say "Okay, sorry, but... Soviets are fucked".
Lord Zentei wrote:Yes, the Mensheviks got what, 3%? They were neither popular nor organized. The Eser OTOH received much support, though that does not automatically imply a tight party organization.
The Mensheviks got 2,3%. The Eser got 40% on the other hand, and Bolsheviks 23%. Essentially there were two popular parties in the Assembly, Bolsheviks and the Eser. But the Eser failed to mobilize any serious forces for civil war, thus Bolsheviks faced an opposition of a ragtag group of monarchists and anarchists, backed by foreign intervention. Of course, this swung the population to support the Bolsheviks and not their enemies.
There was also a problem with the election. The revolutionary government allowed the election to be run on old, pre-revolution election lists (of course, given the financial problems, I think it would be hardly possible to change that). In those lists, the already divided Eser went as 1 party - both Left and Right Eser included, but from the deputees who were put on election lists, Right Eser were more numerous. Thus the numbers of Right and Left Eser in the Assembly were greatly skewed in favour of Right Eser, even as if the vote was run with separate parties, most likely Left Eser would get a lot more places and Right Eser would become marginal like the Mensheviks due to their opposition to the Soviets which were also created among peasantry.
This also explains why the Bolsheviks and Left Eser managed to find support in peasantry and workers, but the Right Eser failed to do so even as they had lots of deputees in the Assembly.
Their later fate is demonstrative - those who claimed to be "defenders of the Assembly" were executed by White-Czech intervents, the coupist Ruler Kolchak, failing to get any power base among the population whatsoever.
Lord Zentei wrote:Wait, you're saying that the factory soviets did not exist by 1922 and/or they did not have voting power to the local soviets?
The 1918 Constitution of the USSR details the structure of Soviets, there are local (city/province) Soviets and regional Congresses/all-Russia Congress. And factory Soviets? You should probably know that there were different Soviets - the Soviets which were a system of State Administration (representative organs of power) and the Factory Soviets, which were a democratic council of workers in a certain enterprise, deciding how to run it. The Soviets were thus twofold - the Soviets of Deputees created the cadres for the State Legislation, while ordniary soviets on enterprises allowed the workers to select a democratically elected manager of their factory. However, these factory soviets soon lost the ability to elect a democratically elected manager due to the needs of war mobilization, even if Lenin at first argued that this was the key goal of democratic factory soviets.
Well. In the absence of such a beurocracy, feedback from consumers and investors happens realtime.
That's not a given that this feedback will be always effective. If it really were so, there would be no crises in the existing system, while in reality they are prevalent and regular.
Moreover, you confuse Soviets as state organs and Soviets as democratic controls of an enterprise again. Soviets as state representitave bodies would be concerned with making legislation, not opening/closing individual factories. And Soviets do not need to abolish private investment completely, or completely abolish the market, why would that come about? In economy, those mechanisms can function.
My point was that the citizen must weigh his choice of vote between local, regional and national interests. If he likes the local actions and not the selection to higher soviets, what does he do?
If he likes his local Soviet and his local delegates, but not the national Congress, this means that other regions vote in a fashion he doesn't like and he's in minority. The same happens in representative democracy. What if your country is dominantly voting for party A in the national elections? You're in minority and you can't change it.
In a representative democracy there are usually seperate elections to each level of government, rather than the local government electing regional governments electing national governments, since the same candidates don't neccesarily represent one's interests best in all arenas.
Well, that is true. But aren't the political parties themselves also a level between the person and the legislature? After all, say, a person can support an obscure candidate from Party X, but Party X moves out another candidate. Person in question loses the ability to impact this anyhow - and even if the elections inside a party are run, only the members/supporters of said party get to vote on the new candidate. And minor correction -as everywhere, people elect the legislature, not the government (executives). Those are appointed by legislature. But I see your point that multiple layers create "excessive bureaucracy".
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Post by Lord Zentei »

Stas Bush wrote:
Lord Zentei wrote:The October revolution was undertaken with a broad base of factions
No, it was undertaken by Bolsheviks and left Eser who were bold enough to take power relying on the Soviets. Other parties didn't participate in the Revolution, and thus sought to undo it - while at the same time making use of the absence of the common enemy (provisional government). Basically they had the Bolsheviks and left Eser using the support of worker Soviets removing the Provisional Government, and then they (right Eser) step up and say "Okay, sorry, but... Soviets are fucked".
The Bolsheviks, the Mensheviks, Anarchists, left Esher... many of which hated each other's guts. Pretty broad based.

The Mensheviks, center and right Esher then walked out of the Second Congress when the overthrow of the provisional government was announced there and a resolution was placed to announce transfer of power to the Soviets after the overthrow of the Winter Palace had taken place, to legitimise it; they beleived the Bolsheviks were making for a power grab. Which they were.
Stas Bush wrote:
Lord Zentei wrote:Yes, the Mensheviks got what, 3%? They were neither popular nor organized. The Eser OTOH received much support, though that does not automatically imply a tight party organization.
The Mensheviks got 2,3%. The Eser got 40% on the other hand, and Bolsheviks 23%. Essentially there were two popular parties in the Assembly, Bolsheviks and the Eser. But the Eser failed to mobilize any serious forces for civil war, thus Bolsheviks faced an opposition of a ragtag group of monarchists and anarchists, backed by foreign intervention. Of course, this swung the population to support the Bolsheviks and not their enemies.
There was also a problem with the election. The revolutionary government allowed the election to be run on old, pre-revolution election lists (of course, given the financial problems, I think it would be hardly possible to change that). In those lists, the already divided Eser went as 1 party - both Left and Right Eser included, but from the deputees who were put on election lists, Right Eser were more numerous. Thus the numbers of Right and Left Eser in the Assembly were greatly skewed in favour of Right Eser, even as if the vote was run with separate parties, most likely Left Eser would get a lot more places and Right Eser would become marginal like the Mensheviks due to their opposition to the Soviets which were also created among peasantry.
This also explains why the Bolsheviks and Left Eser managed to find support in peasantry and workers, but the Right Eser failed to do so even as they had lots of deputees in the Assembly.
Their later fate is demonstrative - those who claimed to be "defenders of the Assembly" were executed by White-Czech intervents, the coupist Ruler Kolchak, failing to get any power base among the population whatsoever.
To claim that the Right Esher would wither to the level of the Mensheviks is quite a bit of a statement, even though they failed to mobilize as much as the Bolsheviks did. :?
Stas Bush wrote:
Well. In the absence of such a beurocracy, feedback from consumers and investors happens realtime.
That's not a given that this feedback will be always effective. If it really were so, there would be no crises in the existing system, while in reality they are prevalent and regular.
Nobody claimed that it was without crisis, merely that it was more efficient.
Stas Bush wrote:Moreover, you confuse Soviets as state organs and Soviets as democratic controls of an enterprise again. Soviets as state representitave bodies would be concerned with making legislation, not opening/closing individual factories. And Soviets do not need to abolish private investment completely, or completely abolish the market, why would that come about? In economy, those mechanisms can function.
Oh, you are so full of shit. You spoke of reinstating the soviet system. Of course that implies the economic soviets: you already have local coucils and the Duma in your current system, yes? And now you claim you were speaking of the legislative soviets, and that this is no different from a representative democracy?
Stas Bush wrote:
My point was that the citizen must weigh his choice of vote between local, regional and national interests. If he likes the local actions and not the selection to higher soviets, what does he do?
If he likes his local Soviet and his local delegates, but not the national Congress, this means that other regions vote in a fashion he doesn't like and he's in minority. The same happens in representative democracy. What if your country is dominantly voting for party A in the national elections? You're in minority and you can't change it.
Incorrect. I vote for one party in the local elections and for another party in the national elections. Simple. For instance: party A wants to improve the local jobs and environment, but I prefer party B's foreign affairs platform and macroeconomic policy.
Stas Bush wrote:
In a representative democracy there are usually seperate elections to each level of government, rather than the local government electing regional governments electing national governments, since the same candidates don't neccesarily represent one's interests best in all arenas.
Well, that is true. But aren't the political parties themselves also a level between the person and the legislature? After all, say, a person can support an obscure candidate from Party X, but Party X moves out another candidate. Person in question loses the ability to impact this anyhow - and even if the elections inside a party are run, only the members/supporters of said party get to vote on the new candidate. And minor correction -as everywhere, people elect the legislature, not the government (executives). Those are appointed by legislature. But I see your point that multiple layers create "excessive bureaucracy".
The additional level between voter and legislature would be present in both cases, so there are still more layers in the soviet system.
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K. A. Pital
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Post by K. A. Pital »

Lord Zentei wrote:The Bolsheviks, the Mensheviks, Anarchists, left Esher... many of which hated each other's guts. Pretty broad based.
Mensheviks did not take part in the October revolution neither did they participate in the revolutionary government. The left Eser and the Bolsheviks had a pretty common platform and they later diverged during Civil War only because the Eser found the peace terms of the Bolsheviks unacceptable. Those parties had representatives in the Soviets, but the truth is they didn't want the Soviets to be in power.
Lord Zentei wrote:The Mensheviks, center and right Esher then walked out of the Second Congress
There were no center Eser? :? And yes, they did - because the resolutions of the Second congress instated Russia as a Soviet republic. They didn't want that.
Lord Zentei wrote:To claim that the Right Esher would wither to the level of the Mensheviks is quite a bit of a statement
The Mensheviks and Right Eser failed to get support from the population, and they were also unpopular in the Soviets (well, much less popular than Bolsheviks and Left Eser).
Lord Zentei wrote:You spoke of reinstating the soviet system. Of course that implies the economic soviets: you already have local coucils and the Duma in your current system, yes?
Reinstating economic Soviets means giving the workers leverage over the control of the enterprise. Reinstating the Deputee Soviets means giving workers leverage over the political powers. Today we have Dumas which have elections on a common representative model - deputees rise through general elections.
Yes, economic Soviets would pose some problems for the liquidation of industries. Incidentally this is what Russia currently needs, I think.
Lord Zentei wrote:I vote for one party in the local elections and for another party in the national elections.
How common is that really, I wonder? Because if it's uncommon to the extent of constituting several percent of the voters in a general election, it's not a key factor. Most vote for the party that wins locally, don't they? If they don't, I stand corrected.
Lord Zentei wrote:The additional level between voter and legislature would be present in both cases, so there are still more layers in the soviet system.
I agree. Or conceed. Whatever. I'm kinda running out of time now and will be busy for several weeks, so this debate is unlikely to be continued :(

Whatever, thanks again for debating.
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MKSheppard
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Post by MKSheppard »

Speaking of the Collapse:

Paper on which this articile is based upon

DAVID FRUM'S DIARY

A deeply interesting paper [link shown above] from the former Russian prime minister, based upon a lecture delivered at AEI, compiled and translated by my superb assistant, Igor Khrestin, and edited by senior fellow Leon Aron. (All quotations are footnoted in the link.)

An excerpt:

The timeline of the collapse of the Soviet Union can be traced to September 13, 1985. On this date, Sheikh Ahmed Zaki Yamani, the minister of oil of Saudi Arabia, declared that the monarchy had decided to alter its oil policy radically. The Saudis stopped protecting oil prices, and Saudi Arabia quickly regained its share in the world market. During the next six months, oil production in Saudi Arabia increased fourfold, while oil prices collapsed by approximately the same amount in real terms.

As a result, the Soviet Union lost approximately $20 billion per year, money without which the country simply could not survive. The Soviet leadership was confronted with a difficult decision on how to adjust. There were three options—or a combination of three options—available to the Soviet leadership.

First, dissolve the Eastern European empire and effectively stop barter trade in oil and gas with the Socialist bloc countries, and start charging hard currency for the hydrocarbons. This choice, however, involved convincing the Soviet leadership in 1985 to negate completely the results of World War II. In reality, the leader who proposed this idea at the CPSU Central Committee meeting at that time risked losing his position as general secretary.

Second, drastically reduce Soviet food imports by $20 billion, the amount the Soviet Union lost when oil prices collapsed. But in practical terms, this option meant the introduction of food rationing at rates similar to those used during World War II. The Soviet leadership understood the consequences: the Soviet system would not survive for even one month. This idea was never seriously discussed.

Third, implement radical cuts in the military-industrial complex. With this option, however, the Soviet leadership risked serious conflict with regional and industrial elites, since a large number of Soviet cities depended solely on the military-industrial complex. This choice was also never seriously considered.

Unable to realize any of the above solutions, the Soviet leadership decided to adopt a policy of effectively disregarding the problem in hopes that it would somehow wither away. Instead of implementing actual reforms, the Soviet Union started to borrow money from abroad while its international credit rating was still strong. It borrowed heavily from 1985 to 1988, but in 1989 the Soviet economy stalled completely.

The money was suddenly gone. The Soviet Union tried to create a consortium of 300 banks to provide a large loan for the Soviet Union in 1989, but was informed that only five of them would participate and, as a result, the loan would be twenty times smaller than needed. The Soviet Union then received a final warning from the Deutsche Bank and from its international partners that the funds would never come from commercial sources. Instead, if the Soviet Union urgently needed the money, it would have to start negotiations directly with Western governments about so-called politically motivated credits.

In 1985 the idea that the Soviet Union would begin bargaining for money in exchange for political concessions would have sounded absolutely preposterous to the Soviet leadership. In 1989 it became a reality, and Gorbachev understood the need for at least $100 billion from the West to prop up the oil-dependent Soviet economy. According to chairman of the State Planning Committee Yury Maslyukov:

We understand that the only source of hard currency is, of course, the source of oil. . . . If we do not make all the necessary decisions now, next year may turn out to be beyond our worst nightmares. . . . As for the socialist countries, they may all end up in a most critical situation. All this will lead us to a veritable collapse, and not only us, but our whole system.

[Nikolai] Ryzhkov [chairman of the State Council of Ministers] commented at the same meeting:

The Vneshekonombank's [Soviet Foreign Trade Bank] guarantees are needed, but it cannot provide them. . . . If there is no oil, there will be no national economy.

It is fascinating to hear now the opinion that Eduard Shevardnadze, then foreign minister, "betrayed" the interest of the Soviet Union—especially when documents that were prepared for him at the time are available. In reality, a number of Soviet agencies urged him to secure at any cost these "politically motivated credits."
In the meantime, the Soviet Union started to have severe food shortages, and grain deliveries were not being made to large cities. One of Gorbachev's closest associates, Anatoly Cherniayev, described the situation in Moscow in March 1991:

If [the grain] cannot be obtained somewhere, famine may come by June. . . . Moscow has probably never seen anything like that throughout its history—even in its hungriest years.

When the situation in the Soviet Union is examined from financial and hard currency perspectives, Gorbachev's policies at the time are much easier to comprehend.

Government-to-government loans were bound to come with a number of rigid conditions. For instance, if the Soviet military crushed Solidarity Party demonstrations in Warsaw, the Soviet Union would not have received the desperately needed $100 billion from the West. The Socialist bloc was stable when the Soviet Union had the prerogative to use as much force as necessary to reestablish control, as previously demonstrated in Germany, Hungary, and Czechoslovakia. But in 1989 the Polish elites understood that Soviet tanks would not be used to defend the communist government.

The only option left for the Soviet elites was to begin immediate negotiations about the conditions of surrender. Gorbachev did not have to inform President George H. W. Bush at the Malta Summit in 1989 that the threat of force to support the communist regimes in Eastern Europe would not be employed. This was already evident at the time. Six weeks after the talks, no communist regime in Eastern Europe remained.

Of course, the West was still careful about directly supporting independence movements inside the Soviet Union. When the Lithuanian authorities approached the American embassy in Moscow to ask whether the United States would lend support to the independence of Lithuania, the immediate response was negative. When the Soviet Union tried to use force to reestablish control in Baltic states in January 1991, however, the reaction from the West—including from the United States—was fairly straightforward: "Do as you wish, this is your country. You can choose any solution, but please forget about the $100 billion credit."

What were Gorbachev's options at the time? He could not easily dissolve the Soviet empire; the conservative elements inside the Soviet leadership were strongly against this notion. Yet he could not prevent the dissolution of the empire without a massive use of force. But if force was employed, the Soviet state would not get the necessary funds from the West, without which Gorbachev had no chance of staying in power.

This conundrum was the source of Gorbachev's dilemma, forcing him to strike a deal with both the military and Boris Yeltsin. Hardliners from the KGB and the army who perceived that Gorbachev was simply too weak of a leader staged a coup in August 1991 under the banner of the State Committee for a State of Emergency (GKChP).

Within three days it was clear, however, that the plot had failed because its leaders did not know how to deal with the situation. Even if they found one division able to crush all the people who demonstrated against the GKChP, would the grain appear? Where would they find the food necessary to feed the larger cities? Would the West rapidly give the $100 billion? Their case, like the Soviet state itself, was entirely lost.

On August 22, 1991, the story of the Soviet Union came to an end. A state that does not control its borders or military forces and has no revenue simply cannot exist. The document which effectively concluded the history of the Soviet Union was a letter from the Vneshekonombank in November 1991 to the Soviet leadership, informing them that the Soviet state had not a cent in its coffers.
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Lord Zentei
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Post by Lord Zentei »

Stas Bush wrote:
Lord Zentei wrote:The Bolsheviks, the Mensheviks, Anarchists, left Esher... many of which hated each other's guts. Pretty broad based.
Mensheviks did not take part in the October revolution neither did they participate in the revolutionary government. The left Eser and the Bolsheviks had a pretty common platform and they later diverged during Civil War only because the Eser found the peace terms of the Bolsheviks unacceptable. Those parties had representatives in the Soviets, but the truth is they didn't want the Soviets to be in power.
Lord Zentei wrote:The Mensheviks, center and right Esher then walked out of the Second Congress
There were no center Eser? :? And yes, they did - because the resolutions of the Second congress instated Russia as a Soviet republic. They didn't want that.
If these counterpoints (no center Escher and no Mensheviks in October) are true, the source I have been using are horribly subpar (:x), and as such I concede the points -- nonetheless, you didn't counter the point that the descision of Congress represented a powergrab by the Bolsheviks and that the resolution came after the Revolution to legitimize it, which was a crucial point. So I stand by that. :)
Stas Bush wrote:
Lord Zentei wrote:To claim that the Right Esher would wither to the level of the Mensheviks is quite a bit of a statement
The Mensheviks and Right Eser failed to get support from the population, and they were also unpopular in the Soviets (well, much less popular than Bolsheviks and Left Eser).
So they did. A pity it's not too easy to distinguish how much of that was due to each of these factors. I guess, on reflection, that you hold the null hypothesis, however. :?
Stas Bush wrote:
Lord Zentei wrote:You spoke of reinstating the soviet system. Of course that implies the economic soviets: you already have local coucils and the Duma in your current system, yes?
Reinstating economic Soviets means giving the workers leverage over the control of the enterprise. Reinstating the Deputee Soviets means giving workers leverage over the political powers. Today we have Dumas which have elections on a common representative model - deputees rise through general elections.
Well, in that case you're definately speaking of special interests groups holding power in legislature. Bad idea, since it allows for the possiblity of immobility of production between sectors of the economy as workers place higher priorty over their respective production being maintained.
Stas Bush wrote:Yes, economic Soviets would pose some problems for the liquidation of industries. Incidentally this is what Russia currently needs, I think.
Not a good way of going about it, IMHO, since it reduces the capacity for innovation and enterpreteurship, and the protection you speak of can be acheived by legislation.
Stas Bush wrote:
Lord Zentei wrote:I vote for one party in the local elections and for another party in the national elections.
How common is that really, I wonder? Because if it's uncommon to the extent of constituting several percent of the voters in a general election, it's not a key factor. Most vote for the party that wins locally, don't they? If they don't, I stand corrected.
Well, it is true that many vote out of party loyalty. But since results in local elections don't always correlate with national elections, there must be a good number of people who think more rationally. I don't have data on how common it is (I imagine it varies by country). However, the point is that the capacity for selective voting remains.
Stas Bush wrote:
Lord Zentei wrote:The additional level between voter and legislature would be present in both cases, so there are still more layers in the soviet system.
I agree. Or conceed. Whatever. I'm kinda running out of time now and will be busy for several weeks, so this debate is unlikely to be continued :(

Whatever, thanks again for debating.
Ah, sure. I'm kind of wasting time I can't afford myself, here. :)
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TAX THE CHURCHES! - Lord Zentei TTC Supreme Grand Prophet

And the LORD said, Let there be Bosons! Yea and let there be Bosoms too!
I'd rather be the great great grandson of a demon ninja than some jackass who grew potatos. -- Covenant
Dead cows don't fart. -- CJvR
...and I like strudel! :mrgreen: -- Asuka
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Lord Zentei
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Post by Lord Zentei »

Thanks for that article, Shep.
CotK <mew> | HAB | JL | MM | TTC | Cybertron

TAX THE CHURCHES! - Lord Zentei TTC Supreme Grand Prophet

And the LORD said, Let there be Bosons! Yea and let there be Bosoms too!
I'd rather be the great great grandson of a demon ninja than some jackass who grew potatos. -- Covenant
Dead cows don't fart. -- CJvR
...and I like strudel! :mrgreen: -- Asuka
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