Questions on Ringo's Human-Posleen War series.

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PainRack
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Post by PainRack »

Black Admiral wrote: That's what we did, as per WotR (it's mentioned that the UK held on to - roughly - everything north of Hadrian's Speedbump).
That's odd, caused in the book that introduced bun bun, it stated that the UK was pwned.
It wasn't that the draft system was fucked up it was that there wasn't enough rejuv to go around. So by the time the old timers got called up the system got fucked over by the Federations cottage industry. I will however state that there seemed to be a great number of incompetants in general in the books but I experianced that in the real military. The system doesn't deal with idiots it promotes them.
I think the real problem was that they activated the senior generals and other officers first to get the groundwork ready. However, by the time it reached down to the active brigades and battalions, rejuv had run out so those guys were without their officers and noncoms until the US govt could rush someone in to replace them.

Other than the political theme, its odd because the US military infrastructure should had been more than adequate to begin the buildup from the grounds up as opposed to top down.
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Post by Jalinth »

Jetfire wrote:
*Sigh* Oh well, least it wasn't as bad as 10.5:2 last nite, where apparantly the arcitic ocean laps against Washington state, the Dakotas, and the rest of the northern states, given the lack of mention, nor even appearance on any of the maps, of the Canadian lands.
The brief map view of the newly formed sea implied that it would open up a passage from Hudson's Bay down to the Gulf of Mexico. The slight fact that this passage would have to run through the Canadian Shield was ignored. So somehow a geological formation that has barely budged in hundreds of millions of years is suddenly going to open up and be swallowed by a new sea in a few week. If I knew the Earth was going to be wracked by killer earthquakes, the safest place to hole up in is likely up in the Shield. Just make sure to stock up on supplies since it isn't that fertile a place and make sure you are well prepared for winter.
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Post by Jalinth »

PainRack wrote: Other than the political theme, its odd because the US military infrastructure should had been more than adequate to begin the buildup from the grounds up as opposed to top down.
I'd absolutely agree with this. I'd have expected a WWII type build-up (which was absolutely extreme in scope. The entire US military was tiny before the WWII gear-up) helped very much by the large number of National Guard and reserve units. So the process should be much less severe than took place in WWII. I'd have expected all/most of your "regulars" to get promotions in the "reserves" - so all of your cpls become master corporals, etc... and you then promote as many of your privates to corporals as you can. Similar process with the officer core coupled with officers double/triple hatting themselves and a severe reallocation of positions from paper shufflers to the field (or at least to combat support jobs in the field). While you will have some core of lifetime and unpromotable privates, these are hopefully few and far between. Possibly use them heavily for your expeditionary forces where you need combat ready troops.

The situation should have been that most of your regular forces would be used as "skeletons" for new units, with a few units kept together for expeditionary force purposes. Once you have the new units stabilized, split it into two new units (if you need to multiple your forces very quickly) and repeat. For officers, you'd need to pretty ruthless but also smart. If a good officer wipes out in the command stream, put them to use in support roles. If you overpromote them (handles a battalion very well, but can't handle a brigade), try to put them back in command at a rank they can handle. If they are utterly useless (moronic nephew of a Congressman), put together an Arctic defense unit composed solely of your useless but unreplacement man.
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Post by Raxmei »

Anyone else find the laundry list at the beginning of When the Devil Dances amusing? Bizarre alliances, some of which appear to consist of only one country, fighting their last stands in nonsensical locations.

Combined Indochina Command, Angkor Wat: Even if Cambodia fought its last stand in Siem Reap (which would mean losing Phnom Penh first), they wouldn't waste their time with Angkor Wat. This is leaving aside the madness of a Combined Indochina Command (Cambodia and Vietnam on the same side?) and of their last transmission coming from Cambodia of all places. Surely somebody in Indochina can outlast fucking Cambodia.

Allies of the Book, Jerusalem: Allies of the Book is a silly name. It also seems consist solely of Israel.

Something about the Forces of Bolivar seems wrong.

Grand African Alliance, Pietermaritzburg: Shortly after the Posleen land in South Africa the Grand African Alliance makes it last transmission in a South African city. Are there any countries in this alliance other than South Africa? Not to mention the insanity of trying to organize a real Grand African Alliance.
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Post by CaptainChewbacca »

^The "Allies of the book" would be a pan-mideast alliance. Islam refers to Christians and Jews as "People of the Book", so it would seem that people looked past their differences to work together.
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Post by MKSheppard »

It wasn't that the draft system was fucked up it was that there wasn't enough rejuv to go around.
BULLSHIT.

We didn't need Rejuv to raise 11+ million men and women into our armed forces in World War II; Plus the existing US Army/US Air Force/USMC is highly trained; to the level that they're essentially veterans without combat experience due to NTC. So why do we have such a massive problem with such a huge cadre of experienced personnel?
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Post by PainRack »

MKSheppard wrote:BULLSHIT.

We didn't need Rejuv to raise 11+ million men and women into our armed forces in World War II; Plus the existing US Army/US Air Force/USMC is highly trained; to the level that they're essentially veterans without combat experience due to NTC. So why do we have such a massive problem with such a huge cadre of experienced personnel?
Because Ringo for some odd reason, created vast numbers of new divisions and corps, any by ROB, activated only the senior officers for them.......


Why on earth the US didn't follow their WW2 style buildup, nobody knows.
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Post by Prozac the Robert »

PainRack wrote: Why on earth the US didn't follow their WW2 style buildup, nobody knows.
How did the WW2 buildup work?
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Post by PainRack »

Prozac the Robert wrote: How did the WW2 buildup work?
New units were created by taking cadre out of existing units and rapidly trained. Once these units were "ready", they were further gutted for more cadre to train and expand more units.

Also, they didn't just ad hoc create new command and theatres, but rather, expanded on their orginal infrastructure and organisational abilities.
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Post by Jawawithagun »

It's been a while ago that I read Hymn and Gust, so sorry if I remember incorrectly. But I seem to remember it being stated that the Posleen's ships having no ways of defending themself inflight. So I keep wondering why no attempts were made to pick them off from orbit or en route?
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Post by acesand8s »

PainRack wrote:New units were created by taking cadre out of existing units and rapidly trained. Once these units were "ready", they were further gutted for more cadre to train and expand more units.

Also, they didn't just ad hoc create new command and theatres, but rather, expanded on their orginal infrastructure and organisational abilities.
It's been a while since I read Hymn Before Battle, but wasn't most of the potential cadre lost when existing formations were sent to other worlds to buy advanced arms?

The only other factor I can think of mitigating against a WWII style build-up was the fact that in WWII the US only trained 89 divisions. Sure, more could have been trained, but Ringo stated that pretty much every able bodied male was mobilized for this war. Would the more gradual build-up have thus even been feasible in five years with a certain percentage of the army being deployed to other worlds?
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Post by MKSheppard »

The US Army in 1942 was a sad-sack unit; we actually got our asses kicked by the French AND Germans when we invaded North Africa; due to a lack of experience; everyone was inadequately trained, didn't have enough equipment; etc.

But by 1944; we were a steamroller of death.
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Post by Aaron »

Jawawithagun wrote:It's been a while ago that I read Hymn and Gust, so sorry if I remember incorrectly. But I seem to remember it being stated that the Posleen's ships having no ways of defending themself inflight. So I keep wondering why no attempts were made to pick them off from orbit or en route?
No they can defend themselves in flight, thats how the Supermonitors were lost. In engagements with Posleen ships enroute to Earth and other Federation worlds. It's just that the Posleen aren't very good at directing the ships and weapons on them.
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Post by Jalinth »

acesand8s wrote:
The only other factor I can think of mitigating against a WWII style build-up was the fact that in WWII the US only trained 89 divisions. Sure, more could have been trained, but Ringo stated that pretty much every able bodied male was mobilized for this war. Would the more gradual build-up have thus even been feasible in five years with a certain percentage of the army being deployed to other worlds?
The US started with how many divisions? Before WWII, the US Marine Corp was small (the Commandant was a Major General in rank - appropriate given the forces under his command), and the US military wasn't significantly larger and had virtually no armour forces whatsoever. They had to expand using this core, while the Ringo era military should have armed forces in excess of 1,000,000 including organized reserves and National Guards. You should be able to use the existing forces to act as cadre for 5 to 10 times that number relatively easily. Expansion thereafter would slowdown, but should still be fairly stable.

Also, given that the Ringoverse did not seem to be drafting women, exactly how many more people would the US Army be able to include in excess of the Selective services plans? Most plans include everyone between ages X and Y, and that fit certain health criteria. The main reduction should be in who is considered to be in "essential services" and possibly the use of some technology to make some draftees eligible. But a 50 year-old is not going to be an able footsoldier unless given rejuvination drugs - which are by canon in very limited supply.

I'll agree with Shep here that the drafting situation doesn't make any sense.
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Post by consequences »

5-10 times the current force is nowhere near sufficient to produce the numbers needed. By the time of WtDD, there's been in excess of sixty million U.S. military casualties, with another forty million or so still under arms in various theaters.

There's also the perceived need to send out the intial Expeditionary Force so that the Darhel won't just leave the Earth twisting in the wind, which drastically limits the available cadre for rapid expansion.
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Post by Jalinth »

consequences wrote:5-10 times the current force is nowhere near sufficient to produce the numbers needed. By the time of WtDD, there's been in excess of sixty million U.S. military casualties, with another forty million or so still under arms in various theaters.
.
My 5 to 10 times is the initial expansion (take your first infantry division and use it to make the cadre for infantry divisions #2 through 6). The US didn't have 1.2 million men in uniform before the start of WWII. The authorized strength of the regular infantry was only 40,000 in 1932 and around 55,000 in 1939. It grew to 379,000 in 1941 and kept on increasing. The US army had a maximum strength of 1.8 million. (www.army.mil/cmh/books/Lineage/in/infantry.htm#8)

So the US infantry increased their strength by almost 33 times and other arms increased even more. I haven't been able to get an official number, but about 1.4 million regulars is a conservative figure. Add in another few hundred thousand reservists, and you are getting to around 56 to 60 million trained figures. So the WWII expansion was close to the magnitude of the Posleen war. Yet they ignored the experience for some reason.
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Post by Lonestar »

Bets we can hope for is that the Darhel fucked up the mobilization process intentionally, although, as has been said, I find it unlikely that TPTB wouldn't say "Well the Book says this. Fuck off."
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Lonestar wrote:Bets we can hope for is that the Darhel fucked up the mobilization process intentionally, although, as has been said, I find it unlikely that TPTB wouldn't say "Well the Book says this. Fuck off."
In fact, when you think about it, it makes no sense; we've been spending money on the Draft system and doing dry runs of it ever since we went to an all-volunteer army in the 1970s. AND, like the earlier drafts of Vietnam, Korea, WWII and WWI, the draft system would basically be run with people with ZERO connection to the military at all, basically the political leaders of the various draft districts; who would simply say, take the election board workers, hand them the US Army's "EZ GUIDE TO RUNNING A DRAFT" and tell them to do it.
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consequences wrote:By the time of WtDD, there's been in excess of sixty million U.S. military casualties, with another forty million or so still under arms in various theaters.
:roll:

Excuse me, that makes NO SENSE.

Why would we even have those levels of casualties AT ALL? We're going up against a race of giant centauroid aliens who have virtually no experience in tactics.

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Post by xammer99 »

Whelp, finished the first book and now waiting on the 2nd.

1. US wank? Are you shitting me? Did we read the same book? The first book made the US look like crap. The French & Germans seriously had their shit together on Deiss. It might be different in later books, but those I understand concentrate pretty much soley on the US.

2. Wierd actions by the US military. They actually made sense that bureaucracies screw the pooch. They do it every day in the real world, why would you expect anything else in fiction? Hell, my problem with the book was that the governments worked to well together. I kept waiting for the backstabbing to come screaming forward. Though it's just the first book, so it might still happen yet.

3. Re: the "silver lightning" grav guns. Nifty idea, only question I had though is what about all the radiation from the matter-antimatter annihilation those things were cranking out?

Someone commented on how they only obliterated the front row of folks. That was not the case in the final battle where they really got into it. Mike comments how they were killing 7 ranks deep (at least 42' if a Posleen is 6' long and stacks up end to end) and the hydrostatic shockwave was very deadly in the area around that.

4. Conscripting women. I got the impression that they did that from the scenes where Pappas arrives in Indiangap. It commented on how numerous women were present in the party and left me with the impression that they were conscripts as well. Though it is certainly debatable. If it was the case, then basic training was most assuredly segregated.

5. Expanding from the top down. Eh? It was NCO's and top officers getting it because those were the bulk of useful retirees. There weren't many retired Lieutenants and Captains because few retire in those ranks compared to Major and above. Conversely you no rejuved privates and those corporals rejuved became Sargents. So calling it top down for the rejuv, at least from the stand point of book 1, is misleading. How were they supposed to rejuv people they didn't have?

6. Scaling up for the draft and it being a clusterfuck in book 1. I didn't have a problem with it and thought it made a lot of sense. Yes it's easy to plug in the bodies, but its a shitload harder to get a reasonably effective force outta it. Social conditions have changed a LOT for one. Americans of 1942 are not the same people as Americans of 2002. Further, the training is a lot different and they were making some mistakes because of the bureaucratic screw ups. Specifically with Pappas. Why in the shit that guy got put into a mainline infantry unit I don't know. He's a veteran drill NCO and such folks are gonna be badly needed to expand the hell outta the army. Taking him outta such a role seemed like a misallocation of resources. But the book largely centered on that theme, so it made sense too.

The book I thought was pretty good and did a great job about pointing out the remarkably stupid decisions that bureaucratic inertia leads too. Were there some over exaggerations? Probably, but I'd put money that were such a real thing to occur, it'd end up being a low ball estimate of the problems.
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Post by PainRack »

xammer99 wrote:Whelp, finished the first book and now waiting on the 2nd.

1. US wank? Are you shitting me? Did we read the same book? The first book made the US look like crap. The French & Germans seriously had their shit together on Deiss. It might be different in later books, but those I understand concentrate pretty much soley on the US.
The wank comes about in place where places like Bavaria and the USA is holding against the Posleen, yet infinitely more difficult terrain features, explictly stated to be inhospitable to the Posleen and their governments fell. Case in point? Russia.
2. Wierd actions by the US military. They actually made sense that bureaucracies screw the pooch. They do it every day in the real world, why would you expect anything else in fiction? Hell, my problem with the book was that the governments worked to well together. I kept waiting for the backstabbing to come screaming forward. Though it's just the first book, so it might still happen yet.
We ignore the impossibility of suits to run their own traiing and cut out food costs. The problem is why on earth would bureaucracies screw up that badly?

Now, using training cards? Fine. Imprepared communications? That's good.

but screwing up the draft enough that the majority of the US divisions are undermanned, and most brigades are on the verge of mutiny?

Don't think so. If there wasn't enough soldiers, why didn't the US just simply collapse the OOB?
5. Expanding from the top down. Eh? It was NCO's and top officers getting it because those were the bulk of useful retirees. There weren't many retired Lieutenants and Captains because few retire in those ranks compared to Major and above. Conversely you no rejuved privates and those corporals rejuved became Sargents. So calling it top down for the rejuv, at least from the stand point of book 1, is misleading. How were they supposed to rejuv people they didn't have?
Except that there were no majors being rujevenated. mike essentially inherits an entire brigade, with no other officer save for his co, commanding the entire division.
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Post by Beowulf »

The Darhel deliberately screwed the US over by reducing the amount of rejuv available after plans had been made for the expansion
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Post by MKSheppard »

Beowulf wrote:The Darhel deliberately screwed the US over by reducing the amount of rejuv available after plans had been made for the expansion
That makes no goddamn sense. WHY do we even need rejuv at all? Simply hand over the brigades and divisions to our quite large retired corps of officers. Do I have to remind you that fighting Joe Wheeler, who commanded Confederate units in the Civil War, ended up commanding a Cavalry Division in the Spanish American War, and then later commanded a brigade in the Phillipines fighting insurrectionists at the ripe old age of 62.
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Post by Jalinth »

MKSheppard wrote: Excuse me, that makes NO SENSE.

Why would we even have those levels of casualties AT ALL? We're going up against a race of giant centauroid aliens who have virtually no experience in tactics.
They have insane numbers on their side (billions), virtually unstoppable direct fire weaponry, amazingly accurate firing systems (if they can see it, they can basically hit it) even though minimal electronic aids exist outside the God Kings, and an unreal tooth to tail ratio (they somehow operate with virtually no support troops. Combat support and service support don't seem to exist and yet the Posleen troops never seem to run out of ammo).

This illogical situation is canon, so bitch to Ringo about it. :D
Call it the ultimate in human wave attacks.
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Post by consequences »

Jalinth wrote:
MKSheppard wrote: Excuse me, that makes NO SENSE.

Why would we even have those levels of casualties AT ALL? We're going up against a race of giant centauroid aliens who have virtually no experience in tactics.
They have insane numbers on their side (billions), virtually unstoppable direct fire weaponry, amazingly accurate firing systems (if they can see it, they can basically hit it) even though minimal electronic aids exist outside the God Kings, and an unreal tooth to tail ratio (they somehow operate with virtually no support troops. Combat support and service support don't seem to exist and yet the Posleen troops never seem to run out of ammo).

This illogical situation is canon, so bitch to Ringo about it. :D
Call it the ultimate in human wave attacks.

Don't forget the nearly unkillable flying skyscrapers.

As far as logistics goes, the Posleen computers keep track of everything. Who owns what, who owes what, who has what needs. When additional God-kings come up from the rear, a quick 'need ammo, give you stuff' barter can take care of immediate needs. For long-term stuff, the God-Kings that care to think long-term can forward their requests, pay off the debt that new Battlemasters owe for their initial issue of weaponry for their units, and have the Net tell them to move forward to join up. Of course, the average Posleen is also highly unlikely to shoot through his entire combat load before getting wasted. And if it beats the odds, all of the dead Posties that didn't don't need their magazines any more.

Food is even more simple: If they won, there's all the dead defenders. If they lost, there's a lot fewer Posleen, and allthe dead ones are now food.


The moronic political decision not to use nukes at every applicable opportunity also hurt badly. As near as I can tell, against the initial landings, the Pres in question wanted to win conventionally, and the fact that a conventional victory was won gave ammunition to the 'no nukes' spewing dumb cunt that inherited the Presidency.


There is a pronounced disparity in the relative competence displayed in the two major conflicts we have first-hand information on, with the German Posleen being far more ably handled than those in the States. My personal wild ass guess is that the Darhel used the Diess Expeditionary Force to roughly gauge a given nation's ability to successfully resist the Posleen, and influenced the Posleen landing patterns to suit their expected need. The initial landing at Fredericksburg would have encouraged the Darhel to believe the U.S. to be a relatively easy target, two heavy corps and a battalion of ACS essentially annihilated against four million Posleen.

In terms of numbers: 1.2-1.4 billion or so Posleen hit the Earth in five major waves, with scattered groups of only four million or so dropping in approximately whenever and wherever they felt like it. Then you have expeditionary forces engaged in three entirely different planetary actions, these forces can be expected to encounter two hundred million or more Posleen per planet, more if they've had any length of time to breed. After six years of bitter fighting on Earth, losing millions in single combat actions, the Posleen were at an estimated twelve billion strong and growing.

Of course, this ignores the Darhel sabotaging every damned level of the process. Giving ACS communiations codes to the enemy, done that. Hacking artillery fire control to induce Blue-on-Blue incidents, done that. Assassinating the highest ranking U.S. military officer when he proved too able, done that too. Then there's the deliberate witholding of equipment, especially that desperately needed to counteract the Posleen landers.
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