People Getting Hit By Trains - Who Is At Fault?

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People Getting Hit By Trains - Who Is At Fault?

Post by Big Phil »

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/l ... in03m.html
It was a bright, sunny afternoon when three girls on spring break set off down the trail flanking the Green River in Kent.

As generations of children did before them, on April 20 six years ago, sisters Rebecca and Rachel Marturello and Rebecca's best friend, Zandra Lafley, climbed up the bank onto two sets of railroad tracks and walked onto the aging black trestle that spans the river, past a sign reading "Danger keep off bridge."

Rebecca, 14, was nearly across the trestle when she heard the whistle and saw the Amtrak train bearing down on them. She shouted a warning to the others and sprinted a few feet, leaping to safety. Rachel, an 11-year-old with cerebral palsy, and Zandra, 13, turned back and tried to run along the unevenly spaced ties where they could see the river beneath them, straining to reach the end of the confining trestle.

They leaped onto the adjoining track and then in apparent confusion, crossed back onto the path of the oncoming Amtrak train.

The deaths of the two girls are the basis of a wrongful-death lawsuit against what the victims' families call Amtrak's "corporate culture of tolerance." They want to hold the railroad accountable for the accident and force it to set standards to help avoid other train-pedestrian fatalities, especially among children.

To do so, the families face a longstanding practice of state and federal transportation agencies and Amtrak that frees train engineers from responsibility for trespassers' deaths, no matter the circumstances.

The state has no guidelines for engineers to prevent hitting pedestrians. Amtrak requires only that an engineer sound a warning signal if someone is on the tracks. The assumption is that anyone who hears the signal will get out of the way, according to the railroad.

Railroads generally take the position that people who walk onto tracks, which are private property, put themselves in harm's way by trespassing, thus negating the railroads' liability. It's a position that has been supported by state and federal transportation agencies.

Railroad accidents involving pedestrians aren't unusual — some 225 people were struck and killed by trains in Washington state alone from 1991 to 2005 — but rarely do victims' families successfully sue a railroad. That's because winning such a case in the state requires proving wanton disregard for safety on the part of the engineer — a high burden of proof.

Nonetheless, the fact that the suit filed in 2002 by Mary and Rebecca Marturello and Leeann Lafley is set to go to trial in U.S. District Court in Seattle in June represents a victory of sorts. The case apparently is the only one of its kind in the state where an appellate court has reversed the dismissal of a case against a train company.




The District Court in August 2003 found insufficient evidence that the engineer had been willfully careless and caused the girls' deaths. But in March 2005 the 9th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals reversed the ruling, saying there appeared to be sufficient evidence for a jury to find the railroad company liable for the girls' deaths.

While neither Amtrak, its attorneys nor the engineer, Gary Reithmeir, will talk about the case, court documents show they deny being at fault for the deaths. In court documents, Amtrak says trespassing on railroad property, which the girls were doing, "courts danger." The state Utilities and Transportation Commission (UTC), which investigates rail mishaps, agrees.

But the plaintiffs believe the railroad should consider the ages of children and do everything possible to avoid an accident. And, if an engineer is alerted before an accident that there are children on the tracks — as was the case in the Kent accident — he should assume the children's behavior will be unpredictable.

On the day of the accident, railroad dispatch notified engineer Reithmeir that the engineer of a southbound train reported seeing children "playing chicken" on the trestle, court documents say. All train engineers are familiar with the potentially dangerous act, in which people dodge danger by leaping away from a moving train at the last second.

Reithmeir was a half-mile away from the trestle when he slowed the train from 79 to 65 mph after being alerted to the children up ahead, court documents say. As he approached, he saw the girls jump to the east tracks and out of harm, so he released the brake and the train accelerated onto the trestle.

But the girls jumped back onto the west tracks. Although they were only about a foot away from clearing the trestle and could have leaped to safety, they dropped into fetal positions just before being struck and killed.

"I think he [Reithmeir] made a mistake by not slowing that thing down" more, instead of just easing up on the brake, said Bob Boston, the state UTC's rail-compliance inspector, who investigated the accident. "But he thought they were going to get out of the way."

Ultimately, the girls were trespassing and responsible for their own deaths, he said.

The plaintiffs insist that if the engineer had immediately applied the brake when he received word that children were on the tracks — or even continued to brake rather than letting up on the brake when he thought the children were in the clear — the accident could have been avoided.

While freight trains, because of their weight, can take long distances to stop, the high-speed Talgo trains that Amtrak uses can stop relatively quickly, within 1,670 feet if traveling at 60 mph, according to the manufacturer's specifications.

Gene Bolin, the attorney for the victims' families, argues that Reithmeir would have had ample time and distance to stop the train before striking the girls.

BNSF Railway, which owns the railroad tracks on which the Amtrak train was traveling, requires its engineers to use the emergency brake to avoid pedestrians.

But Amtrak disputes whether its employees need to follow rules set by the owners of the railroad track, according to court documents.

In a deposition for the case, Amtrak foreman Tim Branson testified that the train company never evaluates engineer competence when fatalities occur.

There is also no requirement that an engineer be tested for substance abuse after a trespasser fatality, according to state and federal officials. Although toxicology reports were done on Zandra and Rachel after the accident, none was done on the engineer.

"The engineer who sees a trespasser on the tracks need, at most, give the trespasser a warning signal, at which point the engineer may assume the trespasser will get out of harm's way," Amtrak argued in court documents. The railroad maintains that the "engineer both blew the whistle to alert the girls to the train's presence and slowed the train's speed some 10 to 15 mph."

The girls, Amtrak points out, "crossed back into danger only after it was too late for Reithmeir to do anything."

For train engineers, accidents involving pedestrians are not an uncommon part of the job. People often misjudge the speed of trains or may not hear one of the newer, quieter trains in time to react. One engineer out of Spokane has been involved in 17 fatalities.

In fact, Reithmeir had been involved in two other fatalities before the Kent accident. The first incident happened in 1987 when he struck a 15-year-old girl at a trestle over the Nisqually River. The second was in British Columbia in 1997, when a 12-year-old boy playing chicken jumped in front of the train and was unable to jump back before being struck.

After the Kent accident, the UTC's Boston recommended in a report to his supervisor that Amtrak look into the problem of child railroad trespassers in confined spaces like trestles. But he said his agency never contacted Amtrak or made any recommendations after his lengthy report.

The UTC does not have any authority over the train-crew operating rules, Boston said. So any punitive action would come from the Federal Railroad Administration (FRA).

Steve Kulm, director of public affairs for the FRA, said it's his agency's policy not to investigate any trespasser fatality.

"It's illegal to be on private railroad property. We don't know what would be learned from a federal investigation into it," he said. "You have a train going down a track. It can't turn off to avoid a trespasser."

But the FRA did a report on the Kent accident because of its "high-profile nature," and concluded that the girls were responsible for their own deaths.

In the meantime, the survivors, Rachel, her mother, Mary Marturello, and Zandra's mother, Leeann Lafley, have tried to cope, too. After the accident, Mary Marturello suffered a heart attack and Lafley returned to drug use after a long stretch of sobriety.

Rebecca, now 20 and working at a day-care center, tries to remember happier times with her best friend, Zandra, who loved rock music and was eager to get a driver's license, and sister Rachel, a "girly girl who always wore her hair up and had earrings in."

Nothing will take the pain away, but "it does seem the engineer should have done something [more]," she said. "We were just kids."

I'm not sure where I stand on this issue. If you're walking on train tracks I have no sympathy for you when you get hit (notice I said "when," not "if"). On the other hand, it seems to me that the railroad companies could do more to keep people off trestles or bridges. I don't know...
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Post by Pick »

In my opinion, I've never seen a case where I felt the train was at fault.

They can't stop for you, and as far as I'm concerned the tracks themselves are warning enough that you have to watch out for fucking trains.
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Post by Darth Wong »

On the one hand, anyone who walks on train tracks is stupid. On the other hand, when you're talking about children (or actual retards), a reduced intellectual capacity is a given.

If the train "engineer" (a term I refuse to use without quote marks because it'a an abuse of the original meaning) could have braked much harder but didn't, then I'd say yes, he was negligent. Just sounding a whistle isn't enough; you have no way of knowing whether the child in front of you is handicapped or deaf or (to put it bluntly) a retard.
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Post by The Original Nex »

Do more how? Any RR crossing or bridgeway I've seen always has, at the very least, a sign and, in more populated areas, gates, bells and flashing lights to warn of a train's approach. Should the train companies have workers at every potential crossing to warn stupid pedetrians or drivers to keep off the tracks? Anyone who gets hit by a train is often hit due to their own ignorance or stupidity. There's nothing the train engineer can do unless he sees the car stuck on the tracks several miles before collision.

I suppose you could modify a train to have some sort of nice, big airbag pop out of the front :wink:
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Post by Vendetta »

Because people are stupid, I think there should be some pressure on the rail companies to restrict access to tracks by erecting fences (or preferably planting hedgerows where possible, preferably ones with big thorns, they will stop anyone not significantly determined. Plus they look nicer than barbed wire).

But anyone old enough to be unsupervised at all should be old enough to know how dangerous railways are, and there should be no liability for accidents resulting from people wandering on to the track.
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Post by Darth Wong »

The Original Nex wrote:Do more how? Any RR crossing or bridgeway I've seen always has, at the very least, a sign and, in more populated areas, gates, bells and flashing lights to warn of a train's approach. Should the train companies have workers at every potential crossing to warn stupid pedetrians or drivers to keep off the tracks? Anyone who gets hit by a train is often hit due to their own ignorance or stupidity. There's nothing the train engineer can do unless he sees the car stuck on the tracks several miles before collision.

I suppose you could modify a train to have some sort of nice, big airbag pop out of the front :wink:
Did you even fucking read the original post, dumb-fuck? It was about children, who can't be expected to behave as intelligently as adults. And it was pointed out that the engineer gently eased up on the brake when he could have safely braked much harder if he wanted to.
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Post by Vendetta »

Darth Wong wrote:If the train "engineer" (a term I refuse to use without quote marks because it'a an abuse of the original meaning) could have braked much harder but didn't, then I'd say yes, he was negligent. Just sounding a whistle isn't enough; you have no way of knowing whether the child in front of you is handicapped or deaf or (to put it bluntly) a retard.
As I understand it, in most cases by the time a train driver can see someone on the tracks, especially a child, it is too late to stop the train safely anyway.
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Post by Pick »

Vendetta wrote: But anyone old enough to be unsupervised at all should be old enough to know how dangerous railways are, and there should be no liability for accidents resulting from people wandering on to the track.
Yeah, where the fuck were these parents? Did they usually let them scamper around without supervision?!

Still, playing chicken... this isn't someone who got hit because they didn't understand a train was coming. They knew that there was a potential danger involved in being in that particular circumstance, and indeed were relying on it --regardless of their true understanding of the consequences. This is tragic, but I don't really see the case. The girls jumped in front of an acknowledged oncoming train.
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Post by Darth Wong »

Vendetta wrote:
Darth Wong wrote:If the train "engineer" (a term I refuse to use without quote marks because it'a an abuse of the original meaning) could have braked much harder but didn't, then I'd say yes, he was negligent. Just sounding a whistle isn't enough; you have no way of knowing whether the child in front of you is handicapped or deaf or (to put it bluntly) a retard.
As I understand it, in most cases by the time a train driver can see someone on the tracks, especially a child, it is too late to stop the train safely anyway.
You don't have to stop before impact; you increase the child's chances of survival even if you only delay the impact, because the child is more likely to get out of the way.
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Post by Pick »

Darth Wong wrote: You don't have to stop before impact; you increase the child's chances of survival even if you only delay the impact, because the child is more likely to get out of the way.
Still, the man thought that they had gotten out of the way, and was therefore continuing --just like he would if any other stupid person was standing to the side of the tracks. I don't really see why he should have expected that they would jump in front of him again?
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Post by Darth Wong »

Pick wrote:
Darth Wong wrote:You don't have to stop before impact; you increase the child's chances of survival even if you only delay the impact, because the child is more likely to get out of the way.
Still, the man thought that they had gotten out of the way, and was therefore continuing --just like he would if any other stupid person was standing to the side of the tracks. I don't really see why he should have expected that they would jump in front of him again?
You don't slow down when you see kids acting foolishly too close to the side of the street? If so, I suspect that your driver training was woefully inadequate. You have to expect stupid behaviour on the part of others when you drive, especially with regards to children. I don't see why train engineers should be held to a lower standard. Besides, there's no indication in the article that he was slamming on the brakes before they jumped onto the adjoining track, never mind the fact that they got confused and jumped back again.

It's not a matter of predicting the childrens' exact behaviour; it's a matter of simply noting that the children are obviously not too bright if they're in that position to begin with, and realizing that you should take every possible precaution.

PS. Part of the problem with discussing negligence cases is the way in which people tend to visualize them. Just look at the title of this thread: "who is at fault". As if you try to decide who is more at fault and then completely absolve the other party of responsibility.
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Post by The Original Nex »

While I would concede on your first point, a train cannot be controlled to the same effect as a car. Once a train gets moving it can take up to two miles to execute a controlled stop and a half mile to 3/4 mile for an emervency stop which also carries the risk of derailing the train. So an engineer (which is still a valid title as another definition of engineer is also "one who operates an engine") has little hope of stopping, or significantly slowing the train unless they have a clear and straight view of the tracks at least a quarter mile ahead.

In this specific case, I agree that if the conductor could have safely hit the breaks harder then he should have done so, but I would say that most train accidents are the fault of the victim, not the train operator.
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Post by AlphaOmega »

Darth Wong wrote: Did you even fucking read the original post, dumb-fuck? It was about children, who can't be expected to behave as intelligently as adults. And it was pointed out that the engineer gently eased up on the brake when he could have safely braked much harder if he wanted to.

In hindsight, the train "engineer" should have continued to slow the train by applying the break because you are right, who knows how children will react. But the article said that the children curled into a fetal position and continues to say that the train could have been stopped in time regardless. So it appears to me that the engineer needed to stop the train rather than slow it down because of the impossiblity of knowing how children will react...jump out of the way, or become terrified and drop into a ball.
Perhaps the engineer figured that the kids were smart enough to realize to get off the tracks (they jump onto the east tracks) and figured that the coast was clear but they jumped back on. Wouldn't this be similar if you drove down your street and seen a bunch of stupid kids running back and forth across the road being daredevils? Would you stop, or just slow down and wait for them to get across the street only to speed back up and have them dart across the street again and you hit them.

All I would say is if train companies are sued for godly amounts of money for this then I think it would be fair that parents should be sued silly when their children play stupid and cause any issues with damage/finacial losses when the train needs to stop (throwing out a hypothetical here).
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Post by The Original Nex »

And yes there are more precautions that the RR companies could take, such as (as someone suggested) fences or hedges along the tracks. But once someone is on the tracks themselves, I don't see much more the train conductor can do besides hit the brakes and blow the whistle.
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Post by Stormin »

Looks like in this specific case the engineer was more responsible than usual, braking the train as much as safely possible might have given the children enough time to react though I doubt the train could have stopped entirely in time.
If he had tried to slow the train as much as safely possible and still hit, then this would be a case of "Shit Happens" and the company and engineer would be in no way responsible.
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Post by Darth Wong »

I agree; it's not so much that I think it's the train company's fault as the fact that the engineer's conduct appeared to be, for lack of a better word, cocky.

@AlphaOmega: yes, I do slow down if there are kids standing too close to the side of the street, simply because they're kids. It's the same reason why I give cyclists a wide berth, because I'm afraid they're suddenly going to do something incredibly stupid like swerving to the left to avoid a sewer grating.
Last edited by Darth Wong on 2006-05-03 05:44pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Vendetta »

Darth Wong wrote:PS. Part of the problem with discussing negligence cases is the way in which people tend to visualize them. Just look at the title of this thread: "who is at fault". As if you try to decide who is more at fault and then completely absolve the other party of responsibility.
This is probably encouraged by the nature of compensation claims, which tend to all be one way.

In this case, the duty of care that falls on the rail company to ensure its drivers are capable of acting safely in cases where children are on the railway tracks should be balanced by that of the parents in educating their children not to play on the railway tracks because trains are big, fast, fatal, and probably not going to stop for you, especially if, as I suspect in this case, the children live within a short distance of a railway (close enough to get to unsupervised and unaided).

In cases like this, I think it is probably correct that there should be no payment, because a greater portion of blame cannot be placed on one party.
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Post by MKSheppard »

Fuck the kids; they were stupid enough to cross an active service railroad BRIDGE.

Too bad only two of them got killed.

The Stupid genes in the others will be passed on to future generations.
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Post by Star-Blighter »

Darth Wong wrote:Did you even fucking read the original post, dumb-fuck? It was about children, who can't be expected to behave as intelligently as adults. And it was pointed out that the engineer gently eased up on the brake when he could have safely braked much harder if he wanted to.
You don't need to be a adult to know: Train + you = PAN-FUCKING-CAKE. At 9 years old I was smart enough to stay off the damned tracks in the first place, could never understand why people ever walked down them. Even youngest the of my friends, a somewhat idiotic 8 year old named Phillip knew well enough to hop off when he heard a whistle, regardless of whether he saw the train or not. Kids will be kids and I agree that the 'Engineer' should have maintained 55 MPH while on the tressel.

But remember, these dumbshits jumped back onto the track the train was on after they knew it was there, and the it takes alot of track for a train underload to come to a stop. And they were all teenagers to boot!

I wouldn't wish that fate on anyone, especially children, but they practically earned it if what I read is what really happened...

Frankly I wouldn't be supprised if one of them decided to play chicken and brought the whole group down with them.

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Post by Darth Wong »

I don't have much sympathy for the kids either because they were pretty fucking stupid. But it is bothersome that there appears to be a certain cockiness on the part of the train company, which could take stronger measures to reduce fatalities but chooses not to.

To be honest, I think the negligence lawsuit system should be amended so that only direct costs are compensated for the victim, and the massive "punitive" damages that are added on top should go into the coffers of the state rather than the plaintiff. That would help eliminate a lot of the "lottery mentality" of negligence lawsuits without letting big companies get away with things because of their wealth.
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Post by Darth Wong »

Star-Blighter wrote:
Darth Wong wrote:Did you even fucking read the original post, dumb-fuck? It was about children, who can't be expected to behave as intelligently as adults. And it was pointed out that the engineer gently eased up on the brake when he could have safely braked much harder if he wanted to.
You don't need to be a adult to know: Train + you = PAN-FUCKING-CAKE.
How does this change the fact that you obviously didn't read the opening post at all?
At 9 years old I was smart enough to stay off the damned tracks in the first place, could never understand why people ever walked down them.
So? You are still negligent if you fail in your own duty of care.
Grant no sympathy where sympathy is undeserved.
Negligence law is not about sympathy; it is about incentive. Grow up and think like an adult. We have to create a mechanism to make sure that companies take public safety very seriously, and negligence law is that mechanism.
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Post by Big Phil »

I would bet that what is described here as cockiness is a sense of invincibility on the part of the train engineers. First, they don't appear to be able to be held liable for hitting or killing people (one engineer has hit and killed 17 people, according to the article), and they probably don't get into trouble with their bosses either. They aren't in much danger in their trains either. I would suspect, too, that there are more serious penalties for late arrivals than there are for killing people.
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Post by MKSheppard »

Reithmeir was a half-mile away from the trestle when he slowed the train from 79 to 65 mph after being alerted to the children up ahead, court documents say. As he approached, he saw the girls jump to the east tracks and out of harm, so he released the brake and the train accelerated onto the trestle.

But the girls jumped back onto the west tracks. Although they were only about a foot away from clearing the trestle and could have leaped to safety, they dropped into fetal positions just before being struck and killed.
He did the right thing; The kids were out of danger from his POV so he released the brake; how the hell was he supposed to know the morons would JUMP BACK ONTO THE DAMN TRACK? Is he Psychic?
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Post by Darth Wong »

MKSheppard wrote:He did the right thing; The kids were out of danger from his POV so he released the brake; how the hell was he supposed to know the morons would JUMP BACK ONTO THE DAMN TRACK? Is he Psychic?
Read my earlier responses to this point.
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Post by Adrian Laguna »

Pick wrote:Yeah, where the fuck were these parents? Did they usually let them scamper around without supervision?!
I really don't see anything unusual about three kids aged 14, 13, and 11 being by themselves in a safe neighborhood.
Still, playing chicken... this isn't someone who got hit because they didn't understand a train was coming. They knew that there was a potential danger involved in being in that particular circumstance, and indeed were relying on it --regardless of their true understanding of the consequences. This is tragic, but I don't really see the case. The girls jumped in front of an acknowledged oncoming train.
The description of the incident does not have them playing chicken. Another train engineer reported he saw children playing chicken. The description of the incident shows them attempting to cross a "trestle" (bridge?), and two of the three girls fucking-up their attempt to get out of the way.
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