The "Decline with each age" Fantasy cliche -any ex

[The Grim Squeaker]

What Fantasy settings don't have a period of time in the past that was more powerful than the current or following ages?

This Brainbug which originated with Tolkien (Morgoth- Saurns master and overall near omnipotent) and was proudly upheld by Forgotten realms (D&D- Netheres mountain lifters, before that the uber elves, before that the real elder races), Warhammer 40k (one of the more extreme examples of this, you can't go back in time without things being better ) etc... is one of the most prevalent in the genre, while many settings have a time of great darkness in the past (Or future- Ravenloft) almost all have at least one first age/age of wonders which was all around far more "high powered", greater, better etc...

[NecronLord]

This Brainbug which originated with Tolkien

Geh-plujjih?

It originated with reality, the universe you're living in now. Tolkien wanted an anglo-saxon-esque feel, and thus patterened his history on the real myth structures of reality. In Anglo-saxon times, there was a past age which was all-round far superior - we call it the roman age.

[The Grim Squeaker]

This Brainbug which originated with Tolkien

It originated with reality, the universe you're living in now. Tolkien wanted an anglo-saxon-esque feel, and thus patterened his history on the real myth structures of reality. In Anglo-saxon times, there was a past age which was all-round far superior - we call it the roman age.

I meant originated in "modern" (Non fable) fantasy fiction, not originated in real life- I know about the ancient wisdom of the romans/Greeks brainbug .

[DarkSilver]

Actually, the ancient wisdom of the Greek/Romans isn't a brainbug, compared to timesetting Tolkien was using (the anglo-saxon period post Roman Empire's collapse) they WERE markledly more advanced and had greater wisdom than the Dark/Middle Age counterparts.

Why the hell do you think they called it the Dark Ages in the first place?

[Ghost Rider]

This DEATH's sad way of finalizing a conclusion he's made instead of making sure the evidence backs him up.

The brain bug hardly originated with Tolkien if the past was indeed BETTER. And just to ram it into dumbass here, a brainbug is a single thing taken to extreme (ie one note anything other then human.) or for his sake would mean that the past was just MADE to look better, and wasn't indeed better because it had factors in it's favor that no longer exist in a world's present.

Look at the 40K....geee I wonder why things were better, perhaps because the Emperor made it so? Oh snap, you mean because he had more control and it wasn't left to his fuck up successors who over time have done some asinine and bullshit, things turned out worse? And the Netherese are as much taking Morgoth as Darth Vader is...

Fucking A, provide examples that a former age that was more civilized, had better control with both military and civil structures and more resources is a brain bug when said civilzation collaspes and shit happens.

Like the other few times you come up with your personal bits and shove them foreward, think before you spew.

[Gustav32Vasa]

What Fantasy settings don't have a period of time in the past that was more powerful than the current or following ages?

Harry Potter

[The Grim Squeaker]

This DEATH's sad way of finalizing a conclusion he's made instead of making sure the evidence backs him up.

The brain bug hardly originated with Tolkien if the past was indeed BETTER. And just to ram it into dumbass here, a brainbug is a single thing taken to extreme (ie one note anything other then human.) or for his sake would mean that the past was just MADE to look better, and wasn't indeed better because it had factors in it's favor that no longer exist in a world's present.

Allright, I made an unthinking spew that was not substantiated.
Also saying that something in the past collapsed doesn't make it worse than the present, and I'm not adressing that, I mean which fanatsy settings don't have a more high powered past, as in the battles were larger, the Balrogs of today were mere captain back then, the great old races hadn't declined etc...

Actually, the ancient wisdom of the Greek/Romans isn't a brainbug, compared to timesetting Tolkien was using (the anglo-saxon period post Roman Empire's collapse) they WERE markledly more advanced and had greater wisdom than the Dark/Middle Age counterparts.

I know that it ain't a brainbug, in that case although the late middle ages did have advances (especially in astronomy) but I digress, I mean that the Lord of the rings started the fanatsy cliche of "The first age" that was all around grander and more powerful than the current one, 40k is another example of this with the old C'tan, the DaoT humanity, the united empire- only with 40k the times were'nt neccesarily better only more powerful or grander.

Harry Potter

That's a good example although arguable since even Voldemort AKA You-know who is only reffered to as perhaps the most powerful wizard of MODERN TIMES with the greatest Wizards being awarded the order of Merlin x class (Although that is a totally useless measurement since it could merely be due to Merlin having great accomplishments rather than raw power)

[18-Till-I-Die]

Well the Romans were extremely advanced compared to the Middle Ages, so from their perspective the Roman era was a lost halcyon age (never mind that the Romans were bloodthirsty psychopaths who made animals and people fight to the death for their amusement...)

And in 40K the pre-Dark Age galaxy was not only safer (IIRC the warp storms started after the fall of the Eldar) but also vastly more advanced. Even during the Dark Age and Great Crusade, the Emperor's time, things were better and brighter, per se, than now.

In a way, its because in reality we can look back on the Romans and Greeks and their technological advancement, and then recall the absolute backslide of the Dark Ages, and wonder what the fuck happened?

But Death is right in that it is hard to think of a fantasy/sci-fi setting that doesnt have the 'long past halcyon days' motif. Its not a brainbug per se but a cliche, an overused but not entirely unrealistic one.

[NecronLord]

(never mind that the Romans were bloodthirsty psychopaths who made animals and people fight to the death for their amusement...)

The characters in charge during the Dark Ages generally didn't do such things on the same scale because they couldn't, not because they wouldn't.

[The Grim Squeaker]

(never mind that the Romans were bloodthirsty psychopaths who made animals and people fight to the death for their amusement...)

The characters in charge during the Dark Ages generally didn't do such things on the same scale because they couldn't, not because they wouldn't.

Eh? What do you mean? They could move solar systems for fun, unless you mean that they actually had law and order without an inquisition:?: .

But Death is right in that it is hard to think of a fantasy/sci-fi setting that doesnt have the 'long past halcyon days' motif. Its not a brainbug per se but a cliche, an overused but not entirely unrealistic one.

My point in the OP.
Although a decent amount of sci fi doesn't suffer from this (Culture and Hyperion Hegemony (in terms of technological if not cultural advancement) as well as erm.. others) although far too many do (Xeelee, Time lords, Star wars [the old sith destroyed solar systems, current can abrely destroy fleets ]

[Duckie]

Eh? What do you mean? They could move solar systems for fun, unless you mean that they actually had law and order without an inquisition:?: .

He means the real Dark Age, o most perceptive one.

[The Grim Squeaker]

Eh? What do you mean? They could move solar systems for fun, unless you mean that they actually had law and order without an inquisition:?: .

He means the real Dark Age, o most perceptive one.

No, I was reffering to:

because they couldn't, not because they wouldn't.

[Pick]

Come now guys, I think he used some bad examples, but the cliche exists.

How often, heck, even in fantasy RPGs are you looking for an ancient sword of a kind whose quality can "NEVAR BE MACH'ED IN THIS AGE"?

Honestly, Harry Potter is one of the only fantasy series I can think of offhand (though I just woke up) where this is not true.

[andrewgpaul]

Surprised DEATH hasn't mentioned it, but the Discworld seems to be mostly free of this particular idea; Sure, there were the Sourcery wars, but the inhabitants of the Disc know not to do that any more, rather than having forgotten. On the other hand, they (or at least Ankh-Morpork) now have telegraphy, space travel and a reasonably effective police force, complete with forensics and fincancial crimes units.

[The Grim Squeaker]

Surprised DEATH hasn't mentioned it, but the Discworld seems to be mostly free of this particular idea; Sure, there were the Sourcery wars

No, it's because the 8 facets/old ones came down and bitchslapped them for almost destroying reality, they can't do it anymore (Although a sourceror can raise the total level).
The fatc is that magically at least, it has declined (The first few books make this painfully obvious) although it has advanced technologically in the past few books

[Duckie]

He means the real Dark Age, o most perceptive one.

No, I was reffering to:

because they couldn't, not because they wouldn't.

Okay, I was being mildly sarcastic when I assumed you would pick up the explanation, but here it is.

DEATH: Romans were bloodthirsty despite being idealized by Dark Ages rulers.
Necron: [Medieval] Dark Ages rulers weren't capable of being bloodthirsty as the Romans but would have had they the opportunity.
DEATH: [40k] Dark Ages rulers could move planets.
Duck: Dude, he meant the Medieval Dark Ages.
DEATH: No, I was talking about what Necronlord said.

Are you seriously that dense? You started talking about the Medieval Dark Ages, and then as soon as somebody dropped the clarifier you instantly switched to Warhammer 40k's Dark Age away from your own first post in the chain, and then when corrected seemingly missed the entire post and reiterated the sentence you were confuse about that was perfectly comprehensable in the first place! (Oh my god run on sentence roffle)

[Duckie]

Ghetto Edit:
Okay, I made a mistake. Sorry DEATH, it was actually 18-Till-I-Die that started talking about the Romans being Idealized.

That's still a rather big failure of Reading Comprehension, though.

[The Grim Squeaker]

Ghetto Edit:
Okay, I made a mistake. Sorry DEATH, it was actually 18-Till-I-Die that started talking about the Romans being Idealized.

That's still a rather big failure of Reading Comprehension, though.

I apologize, I misread your sentance and was busy thinknig of something els,e my fuck up , sorry

[Duckie]

I think we can trace the Decline With Ages thing to two common fantasy cliches:

1. Elves are uber.
2. Elves are dying out/leaving.

That alone, in Tolkien and others, guarantees a decline of a sorts as uber magical elven stuff goes away.

[NecronLord]

Eh? What do you mean? They could move solar systems for fun,

What the fuck are you talking about you inbred wretch? Did you get your brain after it failed to make the spec for mealworms? I'm talking about the Real Dark Ages

And FYI, the 'Dark Age of Tech' guys in the 40k settind cound't do that either.

[Spacebeard]

I think we can trace the Decline With Ages thing to two common fantasy cliches:

1. Elves are uber.
2. Elves are dying out/leaving.

That alone, in Tolkien and others, guarantees a decline of a sorts as uber magical elven stuff goes away.

Fantasy worlds that don't have elves will still often have a fallen empire that was larger than life in every way: much greater feats in technology, magic, and architecture. See, for example, China Mieville's "The Scar" with its "possible sword".

On one level, this is just an excuse to populate the world with insanely powerful but rare artifacts, and even science fiction worlds do it: see the Slaver stasis pods in Niven's Known Space, for example. On another level, it's a throwback to the Middle Ages when the people of Europe lived in the shadow of the fallen Roman Empire.

[Eframepilot]

I think we can trace the Decline With Ages thing to two common fantasy cliches:

1. Elves are uber.
2. Elves are dying out/leaving.

That alone, in Tolkien and others, guarantees a decline of a sorts as uber magical elven stuff goes away.

The cliche predates all modern fantasy. In fact, it's even older than the fall of Rome or the Atlantis myth. Even in the Iliad, Homer went on about how men were much stronger back in the day, able to heft huge boulders that took multiple modern men to lift. It's all just an extension of the Good Old Days nostalgia complex that people suffer from.

[Lancer]

The cliche predates all modern fantasy. In fact, it's even older than the fall of Rome or the Atlantis myth. Even in the Iliad, Homer went on about how men were much stronger back in the day, able to heft huge boulders that took multiple modern men to lift. It's all just an extension of the Good Old Days nostalgia complex that people suffer from.

I believe it was the Men of Gold (funtionally immortal, but had the minds of children, died out due to stupid things like walking into the sea and drowning), Silver (long-lived, wiser than both men of Gold and Lead, died out due to old age), Bronze (heroes and demigods, mostly wiped themselves out in war) in the past, and men of Lead in the current age.

[The Yosemite Bear]

The cliche predates all modern fantasy. In fact, it's even older than the fall of Rome or the Atlantis myth. Even in the Iliad, Homer went on about how men were much stronger back in the day, able to heft huge boulders that took multiple modern men to lift. It's all just an extension of the Good Old Days nostalgia complex that people suffer from.

I believe it was the Men of Gold (funtionally immortal, but had the minds of children, died out due to stupid things like walking into the sea and drowning), Silver (long-lived, wiser than both men of Gold and Lead, died out due to old age), Bronze (heroes and demigods, mostly wiped themselves out in war) in the past, and men of Lead in the current age.

of course the Savage family are still around and kicking, being the last suriving line of the men of bronze. they even have cousin Pat, so there's a potential for the line to continue....

[Sidewinder]

I think we can trace the Decline With Ages thing to two common fantasy cliches:

1. Elves are uber.
2. Elves are dying out/leaving.

That alone, in Tolkien and others, guarantees a decline of a sorts as uber magical elven stuff goes away.

That cliche sounds like the white supremacy crap sprouted out by the Fuhrer (notice the misspelling) in Danger Girl

Long ago, as legends tell, a band of angels descended from the heavens to mate with mortal women, they created a new type of offspring, the purest and truest Aryan:

The Ubermensch.

Superior in size and strength, these magnificent creatures annihilated the poor, lowly beings who stood in their way.
<snip>
The Earth was theirs, never to be wrested away...

... Or so they thought.

After many years of ruling from the majestic continent of Atlantis, the Great Flood destroyed their majestic kingdom.

The Ubermensch and their heritage were swept away, for countless years the link between us and our ancestors was broken.

Scary, yes?

Sadly, white men aren't alone in deluding themselves into thinking that men of the past are superior to men of the present, who are in turn superior to men of the future. (Remember Grandpa and Dad complaining about kids these days, how you and your siblings don't work as hard as they do, and will never accomplish anything?) As Taiwanese historian Bo Yang noted in The Ugly Chinaman, the Confucian tendency to worship the past has kept back China's technological, economical, and cultural development for CENTURIES. I guess it's time to take out the garbage, starting with Confucian ideals on morality-- Legalist ideas on morality actually make sense.