The economy of the federation.

Admiral Piett · Post by **Admiral Piett** » 2002-07-23 07:30am

This is my theory about how the federation economy works.
On the the top there is a political organ,probably the federation council, which gives the political directives.It has to decide if current production has the priority over future production (for example if it is better to use the raw materials and personnel to build starships now or to build more slipways and mining facilities to expand the future production) or if the additional resources available should be devoted to the colonization instead of scientific research and so on.
Under this organ there is the bureaucracy which executes the political directives of the council.It makes the detailed plans and allocates the resources necessary for them.For example it analyzes the demand of medical treatments and decides if a new hospital is needed and then assigns the resources necessary for its construction:skilled pesonnel,construction materials,machinery and so on.The same for a mine and so on.
Since there is no money it probably works on the basic elements:man hours,industrial replicators output,refined materials etc.
People decide to work,motivated either by brainwashing (of which there is not canon evidence) or by "the desire to improve themselves",choose what you prefers.In anycase probably they register themselves to a sort of employment agency and are assigned to the various jobs accordingly to their capabilities and preferences.
For example if one wants to work in a shipyard and he has the skills required he will be sent to a shipyard.If one does not have particular preferences and there are not enough replicators installers he will be charged of this task.
Houses (with related food replicators) and some other things such as shuttles or repulsorlift cars are assigned on justified demand.
Schools,medical treatments,public planetary and interstellar transportations, acces to holodecks and standard replicators and so on are free.
Of course there are other possible variants:for example access to holodecks and interstellar travels may be restricted only to people who decides to work.But I think that the general structure is like I have described it.

Master of Ossus · Post by **Master of Ossus** » 2002-07-23 12:05pm

From an objective analysis of TNG/Voyager, it appears that holodeck space is a form of salary that is given to everyone. The reason I say this is because it appears as if only bridge officers are allotted time on the holodeck. Not only are they the only ones who ever do anything when the holodeck breaks down, but in one episode of Voyager, Tom and B'elana were trying to boot everyone else out of the holodeck so they could get a couple of hours, and the only people they had to talk to were hgih-ranking officers (and the Doctor). This would appear to indicate that only high-ranking officers have significant access to the holodeck, and it is probably a form of reward given to them for their service to the ship/federation.

SCVN 2812 · Post by **SCVN 2812** » 2002-07-23 01:23pm

Not neccessarily, Reginald Barclay is a low ranking engineer and he had access to the holodeck enough to actually become addicted to it. And before somebody starts mocking holodiction, think of it in the same way people become addicted to watching television, playing video games, or web surfing, just another new technology with the potential to be abused. Greater holodeck access with greater rank seems to fit in with traditional military operations, with greater rank and responsibility comes greater priviledge.

TrailerParkJawa · Post by **TrailerParkJawa** » 2002-07-23 01:35pm

I found this website while doing a search for "economy of star trek" in google and I came across Mike's essay on why the Federation is Communist.
I liked the article alot and have checked on the sight ever since.

One of the most frustrating things for me about Star Trek TNG is the whole economy concept. Its very poorly explained. Obviously we see people having personal property but we dont see how they aquire it. Picard has a saddle, did he just replicate it, or purchase it. Picard's family has a grape farm. Is the land theirs? If so what happens if they want to abandon the land?

We hear that poverty, want, need, crime, have all been eliminated. This too me is horse puckey. What happens when two families want to move into the same vacant house? Even in the world of replicators there are things that never change. Land is scarce. There is a finite amount of space to put condos with views of the Golden Gate Bridge and the Academy. Such a nice view is going to, IMHO, generate more demand than supply.

Also, like Mike says we never see any evidence of private companies manufacturing items for the Federation. We see small mom and pop resteraunts but thats it. Do the customers of these resteraunts pay for the goods and services? I remember learning about the "invisible hand" of the economy. No govermental agency mandates that someome makes cardboard boxes. But because you can make money manufacturing them it gets done. In the world of Star Trek what incentive is there to make such things? Or are they simply replicated.

Master of Ossus · Post by **Master of Ossus** » 2002-07-23 01:51pm

Barclay is not a low ranking engineer. He was one of the best engineers on the Enterprise, and a personal favorite of Geordi (the HEAD of the department). While he did get addicted to the holodeck, he also had significant other psychological problems that indicate that he may have had a predisposition towards addiction, allowing him to grow "hooked" with far less exposure than the average person.

Admiral Piett · Post by **Admiral Piett** » 2002-07-23 04:43pm

TrailerParkJawa wrote:I found this website while doing a search for "economy of star trek" in google and I came across Mike's essay on why the Federation is Communist.
I liked the article alot and have checked on the sight ever since.

One of the most frustrating things for me about Star Trek TNG is the whole economy concept. Its very poorly explained. Obviously we see people having personal property but we dont see how they aquire it. Picard has a saddle, did he just replicate it, or purchase it. Picard's family has a grape farm. Is the land theirs? If so what happens if they want to abandon the land?

We hear that poverty, want, need, crime, have all been eliminated. This too me is horse puckey. What happens when two families want to move into the same vacant house? Even in the world of replicators there are things that never change. Land is scarce. There is a finite amount of space to put condos with views of the Golden Gate Bridge and the Academy. Such a nice view is going to, IMHO, generate more demand than supply.

Also, like Mike says we never see any evidence of private companies manufacturing items for the Federation. We see small mom and pop resteraunts but thats it. Do the customers of these resteraunts pay for the goods and services? I remember learning about the "invisible hand" of the economy. No govermental agency mandates that someome makes cardboard boxes. But because you can make money manufacturing them it gets done. In the world of Star Trek what incentive is there to make such things? Or are they simply replicated.

I think that what is not replicated is assigned by the state.If memory does not fail me in the Soviet Union houses were assigned to people and the same probably happens in the federation.The bureaucracy certainly can find a criteria to make the choice if two faimilies want to move in the same house.
Since apparently there is no money the restaurants customers cannot pay,
so probably who runs a restaurant makes it for free.The bureaucracy supplies him with what is necessary for the activity.By the way it is likely that the restaurant itself is a state concession.
I think that small objects are simply replicated.Needless to say this makes things much easier for the federal bureaucrats than for their soviet predecessors:they do not have to set up specialized production lines and distribution infrastructures for every small object the society needs,so they have only to worry about a limited number of items,such as replicators,houses,repulsorlift buses and so on.
I do not know if people who decide to work are rewarded with luxury goods,
such as privileged access to holodecks,the possibility to choose some artworks for their personal collections,a runabout available for a couple of weeks etc.However I find this quite likely,after all a certain amount of material remuneration would make things much easier,since otherwise they would have to rely only on the brainwashing/philosophy stuff and maybe social acceptance(in the sense that lazy people are probably fingerpointed by the other citizens) to motivate people to work.Also we have some indirect evidence to support this,such as the runabout which O'Brien used for a week end tour with his wife,without mentioning that this would explain the source of the artworks owned by starfleet personnel.

Mr. B · Post by **Mr. B** » 2002-07-23 11:27pm

The Commie Federation really needs a more powerful capitalist adversary to bring it down. ie The Empire.

SCVN 2812 · Post by **SCVN 2812** » 2002-07-23 11:57pm

Oh yes, boo socialism, yea pure unadulterated capitalism! Let the rich get richer and the poor get poorer and the world we be such a much nicer place.

Vapthorne · Post by **Vapthorne** » 2002-07-23 11:58pm

A quick thought on the federation brainwashing issue. A lot people pointed out that there is no proof of Feddie mind control camps, and that is indeed true. But, the question is: does methods of brainwashing imply that people need to be strapped down to a chair with their eyes taped open and forced to watch propaganda?

There are many methods of brainwashing, or social conditioning. There are several tidbits shown through out Star Trek that seem to point a solid basis that Federation doctrine might incorporate conditioning techiques to built it's uptopia.

-In TOS, an episode where Uhura had her mind wiped and they had to reeducate her through flash learning (or something on that order). What does this prove, the Federation has the tech to program knowledge directly in a person's mind. Does this mean they can brainwash behavior and personality. Maybe, but I doubt it's likely either that or it's not full proof.

-In the first episode of Voyager, Kim and Harry made references that the Academy teaches cadets not to trust the Fergini(sp?). This shows that young members of Starfleet and possibly starfleet are taught things these things, that seemed quite prejudice in my opinion. And, many members of the Federation boast their superior. Apparently the education system teachs that "we are good and pure" and others are "evil and rotten".

-Also, as seen in many episodes and such. Communication is controlled by the state, and starships have detailed records of where everyone has been from one end of the quaderent to the next.

My point, brainwashing is not simply chair-strapping. It could be a lot more subtle methods, which are more effective as they are less noticed. Why use mind control to make zombies that'll drone 'we obey' when it's much simplier to teach people that state. After all, the Federation's Prime Direction, summed in four words, tells them to 'Sit down, shut up.'

Stravo · Post by **Stravo** » 2002-07-24 12:06am

Oh yes, boo socialism, yea pure unadulterated capitalism! Let the rich get richer and the poor get poorer and the world we be such a much nicer place.

Speaking as someone's whose parents fled a communist dictatorship I can safely say that socialism and communism have generated FAR more misery than the US capitalist system that seems to be in vogue to hate. Just to be clear, I am NOT debating the good and bad sides of socialism, in my opinion it is BAD, all Bad, people are starving, people are out of work (SOME socialistic paradise) and people will risk their lives to come to this captalist "nightmare" so yes in regards to standard of living. freedom and general coolness FUCK socialism yea pure unadulterated capitalism!

SCVN 2812 · Post by **SCVN 2812** » 2002-07-24 12:28am

Of course everybody in the Federation is brainwashed, it's ridiculous to think otherwise. We are indoctrinated from the moment we are born regardless of where or how we live, Federation children learn values like cooperation and quickly learn greed is unneccessary since anybody can accumulate material possessions, just about anything in your day to day life can be replicated, drastically cutting the market for anything that can be replicated which is a lot. So they learn that if they want to earn prestige they have to distinguish themselves in some way other than accumulating stuff.

As for socialism and communism vs capitalism, the Federation doesn't have the same problems modern nations do. Basic needs like food are not a problem. A system is only evil when, as you described, large numbers of people are not able to have their basic needs met and their basic freedoms oppressed or nonexistant. Which is hardly the case in the Federation.

Master of Ossus · Post by **Master of Ossus** » 2002-07-24 12:29am

While a communist/socialist economy is very good in theory, in practice it rapidly degenerates because its ideals run contrary to human nature. However, the Federation appears to have overcome this barrier, and appears to be reasonably stable in a socio-economic sense. This leads me to believe that either they have deliberately altered the way that people think, or their society is not completely communistic or socialistic. Instead, perhaps it is some kind of a hybrid system that is more beneficial than the communisms and socialisms that we have had here on Earth.

SCVN 2812 · Post by **SCVN 2812** » 2002-07-24 12:41am

Please define human nature in a way that nobody can dispute. Human nature is simply opinion, nothing more. Grab an excyclopedia or a dictionary or two and see if they even have any comment on it or if any two sources even agree.

Human nature, except survival instincts, does not exist. If it did and it conformed to most people's overwhelmingly negative assessment of it and could not be changed or suppressed then civilization as it exists now would be impossible.

Stravo · Post by **Stravo** » 2002-07-24 01:06am

Human Nature - I won't pretend to have a clear definition, but I do have history - how we live and die, humanity has fought bloody wars over land and resources, killed out of passion, looked out for ourselves and tried as best we can to hold on to what we have. What is one of the first things a child learns "MINE" What drives our engines of commerce? To make people feel better, to better ourselves, NO. It is to make money and be rich to get more things and be more succesful. Don't blame Captialism for this attitude, ancient Egyptian children were saying MINE too and they weren't capitalists. Captialism works because it recognizes this and tries to channel into something productive. Just ask those bastards Marx and Lenin how well their alternative did.

It has been this way for MILLENNIA...do you SERIOUSLY believe all of this will change???? In 200 hundred years???!!?!??

Gene Roddenberry had a very sweet and naive notion that we would become better as time went on, technology would make us evolve past crime, greed and war. He is ignoring millions of years of evoltuion that have made us who we are today, for better or for worse we are still the same beings we were in those caves in AFrica. Technology has made things easier, we have become civilized but just beneath the surface, we are nasty and brutish. Thats not a dark view of humanity, it is a real one. I switch on the News and I see the validation of this in every home bombed by Israeli F-16s, every buidling brought down by "radical fundamentalists." So I ask you when you look at the TV, do you see ST or do you see reality?

Master of Ossus · Post by **Master of Ossus** » 2002-07-24 01:15am

SCVN 2812 wrote:Please define human nature in a way that nobody can dispute. Human nature is simply opinion, nothing more. Grab an excyclopedia or a dictionary or two and see if they even have any comment on it or if any two sources even agree.

Human nature, except survival instincts, does not exist. If it did and it conformed to most people's overwhelmingly negative assessment of it and could not be changed or suppressed then civilization as it exists now would be impossible.

Human nature is NOT an opinion, dipshit. Human nature is a series of basic, INSTINCTUAL behaviors that have been ingrained within people by evolution/genetics/creation (IF you are a creationist). It has never changed in the history of the human race. Parts of human nature are: people are lazy (this should make sense, it is better not to do things unless you have to, for survival), people are greedy (they take whatever they can get--whether to store it or to use it immediately), people are wary of strangers or the unknown, and people tend to climb when they are in danger, rather than remaining on the ground or going to a lower elevation. The last ones should be pretty self-explanatory. While some individuals may overcome these, unless a CONCERTED effort is made to alter these behaviors, they will continue to appear in people. The only way that an entire society can change these behaviors is with brain-washing on a massive scale. No even alters these essential patterns in human minds.

Incidentally, it is completely possible to have human natures the way I see them and still have civilizations the way that we have them today. It is easier for people in general to live in societies like our own than it would be to go against these societies. There ARE exceptions to this. There are people who fight back deliberately against society (Lee Harvey Oswald, Timothy McVeigh, the Unabomber, and the members of the Waco cult are extreme examples of these individuals). In general, our society is set up to eliminate such people or remove them from society. We have police men, federal offices like the FBI and ATF, and the judiciary branch of the government set up to take these people off the streets and attempt to re-educate them so they may return to society. Sometimes this is impossible using our current methods, but there are successes on an individual basis, here.

Admiral Piett · Post by **Admiral Piett** » 2002-07-24 09:44am

[quote="SCVN 2812"]Of course everybody in the Federation is brainwashed, it's ridiculous to think otherwise. We are indoctrinated from the moment we are born regardless of where or how we live, Federation children learn values like cooperation and quickly learn greed is unneccessary since anybody can accumulate material possessions, just about anything in your day to day life can be replicated, drastically cutting the market for anything that can be replicated which is a lot. So they learn that if they want to earn prestige they have to distinguish themselves in some way other than accumulating stuff.

Even if small objects can be replicated at will larger ones cannot(or at least it is not practical).As I I have already said starships,buildings,holodecks and so on are built in more conventional ways.So a person cannot have his own warp capable shuttle, a personal holodeck or a bigger house simply pressing a button.Are you sure that no one would want a personal holodeck instead of having to go to a public one and maybe having to wait in line?Are you sure that no one would want a repulsorlift car/warp capable shuttle instead of having to wait the repulsorlift bus/ passanger starship?
A do not answer me saying that people can go where they want with ST public transportation.It is the same today but people still spend a lot of money to buy private cars(someone even private aircrafts),they had private cars even in the socialist countries.