zerg vs starship troopers

[Siege]

We haven't actually "seen" a Siege Tank fire, have we? It's pretty clear the only thing even remotely resembling a tank seen in a cutscene wasn't a Siege Tank at all.

[brianeyci]

I think you're throwing the term 'game mechanics' around far too liberally. Game Mechanics would be stuff like the invulnerable trees in Halo and Starcraft, i.e. engine limitations and the like. A low zoom factor on a scope is just that, a low zoom (of course until the game actually comes out I don't think we'll know whether or not that 1.6x zoom is the max or not though I doubt it is).

Fine, but I saw a screenshot with 6.4x zoom. Maximum is probably ten times zoom, and we can extrapolate a fighting distance from that. Of course, standard marine rifles may not have this zoom. Ghosts are special forces after all.

There are several screenshots of marines shooting and hitting targets about twenty meters distant in the air (floating overlords).

There are also several screenshots of fixed automated defenses like turrets shooting those 8 mm hypersonic rounds.

And several screenshots of a flamethrower being fired at around five or six meters distant.

We also see that Marine and Firebat armor is full suit like an exoskeleton, completely sealed.

All this the Zerg have to deal with and overcome.

Furthermore we know they have indirect fire capable units, the fact that seige tanks can do that is nothing new (though the blast radius on those rounds is pathetic).

Yes. Blast radius can be explained by variable yields -- Nova was sitting pretty close to the Dragoon when she called it down. And we see her cycle through to a tactical nuke, so we know that nukes are an option for SC Terrans.

Brian

[brianeyci]

We haven't actually "seen" a Siege Tank fire, have we? It's pretty clear the only thing even remotely resembling a tank seen in a cutscene wasn't a Siege Tank at all.

Starcraft Ghost shows Siege Tanks in action. That link to the movie shows a Siege Tank destroying a Dragoon. Here is a siege tank in action, and here is the size of a siege tank compared with a human.

Brian

[brianeyci]

I think you're throwing the term 'game mechanics' around far too liberally. Game Mechanics would be stuff like the invulnerable trees in Halo and Starcraft, i.e. engine limitations and the like. A low zoom factor on a scope is just that, a low zoom (of course until the game actually comes out I don't think we'll know whether or not that 1.6x zoom is the max or not though I doubt it is).

Now that I think of it, I disagree with you. If we take a low zoom factor as non-game mechanic, then for example what stops us from taking range from SC (strategy game) and extrapolating BC's and Marines as having pathetic range? Anything involving a quantative analysis is suspect to me in game mechanics, so we can't determine weapon effectiveness. Zoom factor seems to be bunched in the same category. I see the screenshots as a good way of comparing different sizes and qualitative traits -- like Ghosts and Marines having fully sealed suits and a Siege Tank being huge, but if we were to take weapons yields then the screenshot of Nova standing right beside a Firebat's flame is retarded as Nova doesn't get scorched at all... so do we suppose that the flame is not hot despite the manual description? Please.

Brian

[Siege]

Hmm, those explosions are rather pussified. Then again, perhaps they load ordnance depending on what target they need to hit .

[GeneralTacticus]

Yeah, I looked up the numbers too and it seems I've grossly misremembered them. Though I would like to note this, which goes with the broods:

Although there is very little known about the different Broods that comprise the Zerg Swarms, some Terran scientists have attempted to document and classify a few of the larger Broods that have ransacked their colonies.

It at the very least implies that there might be many more broods out there. But still, they would number only in the millions, not billions.

Well, the game itself refers to 'billions' of Zerg being drawn to Tarsonis by the Psi Emitters. Make of that what you will.

[SylasGaunt]

We haven't actually "seen" a Siege Tank fire, have we? It's pretty clear the only thing even remotely resembling a tank seen in a cutscene wasn't a Siege Tank at all.

In a cut-scene? no. In ghost? Yes.. and it's none too impressive.

There are also several screenshots of fixed automated defenses like turrets shooting those 8 mm hypersonic rounds.

Please tell me you're not using that 8mm hypersonic crap from the manual? The stuff that doesn't match anythign that we see in cut-scenes?

Yes. Blast radius can be explained by variable yields -- Nova was sitting pretty close to the Dragoon when she called it down. And we see her cycle through to a tactical nuke, so we know that nukes are an option for SC Terrans.

Yeah but we've known nukes are an option since SC, they're just small tac-nukes that you either have to build a ground-side missile silo to use or drop out of an orbiting battlecruiser (Shadow of the Xel'Naga). Even going with the variable yield explanation though it still doesn't say good things about the armor on a dragoon.

If we take a low zoom factor as non-game mechanic

The zoom factor is not a limitation of the game, but rather a limitation of hte equipment. It'd be childs play to put a bigger zoom on and the only limitation would be the draw distance of the game engine (the limitations of which would qualify as game mechanics).

then for example what stops us from taking range from SC (strategy game) and extrapolating BC's and Marines as having pathetic range?

The fact that it's quite obvious that the graphics in the Starcraft RTS are most definitely NOT to scale. Ergo any measurements you take from it are suspect.

Anything involving a quantative analysis is suspect to me in game mechanics, so we can't determine weapon effectiveness. Zoom factor seems to be bunched in the same category. I see the screenshots as a good way of comparing different sizes and qualitative traits -- like Ghosts and Marines having fully sealed suits and a Siege Tank being huge, but if we were to take weapons yields then the screenshot of Nova standing right beside a Firebat's flame is retarded as Nova doesn't get scorched at all... so do we suppose that the flame is not hot despite the manual description? Please.

The starcraft manual would hardly be the best source of any information given what it says about marine rifles and how it doesn't jive with what we see in the cut-scenes.

[brianeyci]

Please tell me you're not using that 8mm hypersonic crap from the manual? The stuff that doesn't match anythign that we see in cut-scenes?

Fine that was stupid of me.

Yeah but we've known nukes are an option since SC, they're just small tac-nukes that you either have to build a ground-side missile silo to use or drop out of an orbiting battlecruiser (Shadow of the Xel'Naga). Even going with the variable yield explanation though it still doesn't say good things about the armor on a dragoon.

Explained through armor piercing rounds. We see that cinematic of the one-man artillery piece shooting a Dragon, it is obvious that the missile penetrates the armor and either triggers an internal explosion or detonates inside.

The zoom factor is not a limitation of the game, but rather a limitation of hte equipment. It'd be childs play to put a bigger zoom on and the only limitation would be the draw distance of the game engine (the limitations of which would qualify as game mechanics).

Fine.

The fact that it's quite obvious that the graphics in the Starcraft RTS are most definitely NOT to scale. Ergo any measurements you take from it are suspect.

I consider range a game mechanic. Don't you? What about Nova standing right next to a flame blast and being unscorched?

The starcraft manual would hardly be the best source of any information given what it says about marine rifles and how it doesn't jive with what we see in the cut-scenes.

Fine, we'll go with the concept art. The concept art is for SC:Ghost, and not from the manual.

Brian

[LordShaithis]

We know that SST had (or will have, whatever) planet-busting "nova bombs" within Rico's lifetime at the very least. Leaving aside the bombs themselves, the fact that they're at or near the point of deploying such weapons says something about their overall firepower. I mean, if they have planet-killers and low-kiloton infantry weapons, I think it's reasonable to assume their warships aren't armed with spitballs.

Doesn't Rico briefly reflect in the book that there are those who think the Navy's ability to unleash orbital ownage has made the MI obsolete?

(And nobody give me any "they use primitive nukes instead of advanced <technobabble> so they lose!" Anyone who's a regular here should fucking know better.)

[SylasGaunt]

[
Explained through armor piercing rounds. We see that cinematic of the one-man artillery piece shooting a Dragon, it is obvious that the missile penetrates the armor and either triggers an internal explosion or detonates inside.

Yeah but that missile launcher is a completely different weapons system. Seige tanks on the other hand are supposed to fufill the role of conventional arty.. AP isn't really conducive to that usually.

I consider range a game mechanic. Don't you? What about Nova standing right next to a flame blast and being unscorched?

Obviously it's a low temperature flame then if it requires contact to burn.

Fine, we'll go with the concept art. The concept art is for SC:Ghost, and not from the manual.

Brian

Care to be more specific?

[Adun]

Simple.. they move instead of drifting slowly along and letting a scourge slowly drift into them. Scourge's aren't exactly speed demons going by the one cut-scene we've seen them in.

Save for the zerg Queen, the scourges outrun most of the SC air units. We ´ve seen them attack the Norad II and catch up with the remanents of the UED fleet fleeing from the Kopralu sector. SST ships aren´t speed demons either, anyways.

[brianeyci]

Yeah but that missile launcher is a completely different weapons system. Seige tanks on the other hand are supposed to fufill the role of conventional arty.. AP isn't really conducive to that usually.

How do we know that Siege Tanks are "supposed" to do anything? I don't see why AP is not important when dealing with armored tanks, shielded targets, and carapace that can take point blank in the face automatic weapons fire.

Obviously it's a low temperature flame then if it requires contact to burn.

No, a limitation of the game engine. Someone rolling on the ground should get cuts and bruises and such just like someone standing next to the flame, but this does not happen. Proximity to the flame may lower hit points, we don't know yet. What about if Nova gets engulfed by the flame? Methinks Nova won't instantly die, but lose hitpoints. And definitely it won't fuck up her mascara. How do we intepret that, the flame being not hot at all? Please.

Care to be more specific?

Go up to the C-20 Canister Rifle link I posted. It shows the rifle able to shoot grenades, canister rounds and gauss rounds depending on the clip. The rifle has a retractable stock, trigger guard and scope -- definitely not banana phasers.

Brian