Why is [WB]Angel so powerful?

Crom · Post by **Crom** » 2004-12-09 08:15pm

I started watching season 2 of Angel and I was amazed at how powerful Angel is. Admittedly, I only saw a little of him in Buffy, but I came away with the impression that Angel wasn't that powerful (I didn't really consider Angellus to be the same entity).

Why is Angel so powerful? Buffy-verse vampires, in general, seem to drastically vary in how powerful they are, with Angel seeming to be towards the high end.

Elheru Aran · Post by **Elheru Aran** » 2004-12-09 08:19pm

I dunno? In the first season episodes (if the ones they've been running lately on TNT are first season), he didn't seem particularly powerful-- got smacked around a lot by rather minor demons and so forth. Sure, he'd eventually pwn, but on one i remember (the one that invaded people's bodies after having sex), he even went all forehead-y and still got smacked about...

Durandal · Post by **Durandal** » 2004-12-09 08:19pm

Power seems to correlate with age among vampires in the Buffy-verse. Spike and Angel are both over 200 years old, and they're both considered very powerful vampires.

Crom · Post by **Crom** » 2004-12-09 08:24pm

Elheru Aran wrote:I dunno? In the first season episodes (if the ones they've been running lately on TNT are first season), he didn't seem particularly powerful-- got smacked around a lot by rather minor demons and so forth. Sure, he'd eventually pwn, but on one i remember (the one that invaded people's bodies after having sex), he even went all forehead-y and still got smacked about...

In an episode in season 2 Angel walks into a room filled with demon thugs waiting for a Blood Sport style tournament to see who would be worthy of serving Darla and Dru, and kills all of them. Roughly ten demons, all at once. He did not seem to be significantly wounded afterwards, either.

Crom · Post by **Crom** » 2004-12-09 08:25pm

Durandal wrote:Power seems to correlate with age among vampires in the Buffy-verse. Spike and Angel are both over 200 years old, and they're both considered very powerful vampires.

The Master didn't seem to be more powerful than Angellus in some ways. Angellus seems like much more of a threat. Of course, I don't actually recall the Master doing anything so that may be why I consider Angellus to be a greater threat.

Elheru Aran · Post by **Elheru Aran** » 2004-12-09 08:40pm

Crom wrote:
Durandal wrote:Power seems to correlate with age among vampires in the Buffy-verse. Spike and Angel are both over 200 years old, and they're both considered very powerful vampires.
The Master didn't seem to be more powerful than Angellus in some ways. Angellus seems like much more of a threat. Of course, I don't actually recall the Master doing anything so that may be why I consider Angellus to be a greater threat.

My opinion on the Master: since he's so old, he may have some magical power inherent to himself. Vampires are fully capable of performing magic-- Angel did an exorcism in one episode of his show (he used a rag wrapped around the cross to protect his hand). However, I've never seen Buffy, so I can't say... Angelus is certainly powerful, though. Since he's got no soul to possibly hinder him, he's even more dangerous.

Question-- how many times has Angel lost his soul on both shows? I know he certainly did twice, once with Buffy and another time with the Beast...

Crom · Post by **Crom** » 2004-12-09 08:44pm

Elheru Aran wrote:My opinion on the Master: since he's so old, he may have some magical power inherent to himself. Vampires are fully capable of performing magic-- Angel did an exorcism in one episode of his show (he used a rag wrapped around the cross to protect his hand). However, I've never seen Buffy, so I can't say... Angelus is certainly powerful, though. Since he's got no soul to possibly hinder him, he's even more dangerous.

Question-- how many times has Angel lost his soul on both shows? I know he certainly did twice, once with Buffy and another time with the Beast...

I just don't remember the Master doing anything particularly interesting other than play the cat stroking villain who cries out in anger every time the episode ends and his flunkies have been defeated.

The occasions you listed were the only times I can remember Angel losing his soul. Unless you count the initial losing of his soul that occured when Darla made Angelus.

Elheru Aran · Post by **Elheru Aran** » 2004-12-09 08:52pm

Crom wrote:
The occasions you listed were the only times I can remember Angel losing his soul. Unless you count the initial losing of his soul that occured when Darla made Angelus.

Okay, just seems to me from a few threads i've read that he's lost his soul more than that... usually something along the lines of "yet again" and that kind of thing. Guess it's poetic license though. In any case, yeah, that does seem to be the Master's shtick... one sort of wishes he'd use a little more imagination (not to mention brute-force tactics-- nothing like a Demon Army (TM) to catch people's attentions...)

Crom · Post by **Crom** » 2004-12-09 09:03pm

Elheru Aran wrote:Okay, just seems to me from a few threads i've read that he's lost his soul more than that... usually something along the lines of "yet again" and that kind of thing. Guess it's poetic license though. In any case, yeah, that does seem to be the Master's shtick... one sort of wishes he'd use a little more imagination (not to mention brute-force tactics-- nothing like a Demon Army (TM) to catch people's attentions...)

I get the impression that Angel lost his soul a few more times too.

Question- Why, if losing his soul is such an issue with Angel, did they not utilize a different method of returning his soul to him? The curse seems especially cruel when there seems to be other ways for vampires to regain their souls. Take Spike, for example, who I do not think is actually cursed.

Another Question- Angel has come across good demons before, how are they different than the demon he is?

Yeah, it would have been cool to see the Master do something more impressive than be thwarted for a season and then die.

Anarchist Bunny · Post by **Anarchist Bunny** » 2004-12-09 09:32pm

Vamps tend do tend to get more powerful with age(Angel is IIRC about 200 at the start of Buffy), and remember, the transistion from Buffy's show to his show involved a hundred years in a hell dimention, where he probably had to kick more than a few demon asses.

neoolong · Post by **neoolong** » 2004-12-09 09:51pm

He trained is my guess. The episode where he takes out the demons wanting to serve Darla and Dru takes place after he started training heavily to take them on.

From the beginning however, I'd say since he's taking a more active role in LA, being alone and all, that he decided to train more. Considering that for a while on Buffy he didn't do much expect play cryptic guy, he wasn't really a fighter.

Majin Gojira · Post by **Majin Gojira** » 2004-12-09 09:55pm

Ok where to begin:

Yes, Vamps get more powerful with age.

I have yet to run Quantificationf of Angel beyond Seson 1

The Master was very powerful, and had limited psychic abilities, namely, Mesmerism and ESP.

Angel was resouled the same way because that was the only way known to them of how.

Angel did deal with the idea of other repentant demon Champions in the First Episode of Season 2. He accidently killed a woman's protector.

Angel has lost his soul only those 2 times mentioned. Though he came close in Season 2

Since the incident in question involving the 10 demons and vamps is unseen so we don't know how they all died. Angel may have killed all of them, but they may have been diggin into each other before hand.

Imperial Overlord · Post by **Imperial Overlord** » 2004-12-09 09:58pm

Didn't Angel temporarily lose his soul when he was high in the not so hot Season !?

Imperial Overlord · Post by **Imperial Overlord** » 2004-12-09 09:58pm

Oops. That should be Season 1.

Majin Gojira · Post by **Majin Gojira** » 2004-12-09 10:02pm

It brought Angelus to the forefront, but did not cause him to lose his soul.

Slartibartfast · Post by **Slartibartfast** » 2004-12-09 10:43pm

Elheru Aran wrote:Question-- how many times has Angel lost his soul on both shows? I know he certainly did twice, once with Buffy and another time with the Beast...

He lost it once after sex with some actor chick, after she gave him a happy pill. But he got it back when the effect ran out.

White Haven · Post by **White Haven** » 2004-12-09 11:42pm

Wtf? Roll 2d6 and consult the 'Where the hell is my soul THIS Time?' chart.

InnerBrat · Post by **InnerBrat** » 2004-12-10 05:30am

White Haven wrote:Wtf? Roll 2d6 and consult the 'Where the hell is my soul THIS Time?' chart.

FUQ.

Crown · Post by **Crown** » 2004-12-10 09:49am

Durandal wrote:Power seems to correlate with age among vampires in the Buffy-verse. Spike and Angel are both over 200 years old, and they're both considered very powerful vampires.

Spike is 120ish and Angel spent time in a hell demension where 1 min here was like a 100 years there (or some such thingy, can't really remember the exact time zones), so it would make him a little older than 200.

neoolong · Post by **neoolong** » 2004-12-10 10:40am

Crown wrote:
Durandal wrote:Power seems to correlate with age among vampires in the Buffy-verse. Spike and Angel are both over 200 years old, and they're both considered very powerful vampires.
Spike is 120ish and Angel spent time in a hell demension where 1 min here was like a 100 years there (or some such thingy, can't really remember the exact time zones), so it would make him a little older than 200.

Wasn't he only 120 later on despite being said to be 200 because the writer or Joss Whedon wasn't so good with math and screwed up his age?

Crown · Post by **Crown** » 2004-12-10 10:43am

neoolong wrote:
Crown wrote:
Durandal wrote:Power seems to correlate with age among vampires in the Buffy-verse. Spike and Angel are both over 200 years old, and they're both considered very powerful vampires.
Spike is 120ish and Angel spent time in a hell demension where 1 min here was like a 100 years there (or some such thingy, can't really remember the exact time zones), so it would make him a little older than 200.
Wasn't he only 120 later on despite being said to be 200 because the writer or Joss Whedon wasn't so good with math and screwed up his age?

It was in one of the flash backs/crossovers of Angel and Buffy, Spike was turned in the 1880's ... the 200 figure was IIRC Giles' breafing on Spike when he first appeared in Season 2 of Buffy (School Hard?), I can't remeber any other instances of his age being mentioned, although I am sure it was said in passing atleast once or twice in a Season.

Regardless, the episode with the date underneath is pretty much irrefuitable.

Stormbringer · Post by **Stormbringer** » 2004-12-10 12:00pm

Crown wrote:It was in one of the flash backs/crossovers of Angel and Buffy, Spike was turned in the 1880's ... the 200 figure was IIRC Giles' breafing on Spike when he first appeared in Season 2 of Buffy (School Hard?), I can't remeber any other instances of his age being mentioned, although I am sure it was said in passing atleast once or twice in a Season.

Regardless, the episode with the date underneath is pretty much irrefuitable.

Actually, I believe Giles gave them a 100 years figure in that episode. Which fits well enough.

Crown · Post by **Crown** » 2004-12-10 12:07pm

Stormbringer wrote:
Crown wrote:It was in one of the flash backs/crossovers of Angel and Buffy, Spike was turned in the 1880's ... the 200 figure was IIRC Giles' breafing on Spike when he first appeared in Season 2 of Buffy (School Hard?), I can't remeber any other instances of his age being mentioned, although I am sure it was said in passing atleast once or twice in a Season.

Regardless, the episode with the date underneath is pretty much irrefuitable.
Actually, I believe Giles gave them a 100 years figure in that episode. Which fits well enough.

Haven't seen it in a while but I belive Giles said 'over 100, nearly as old as Angel', which led to the confusion.

neoolong · Post by **neoolong** » 2004-12-10 12:08pm

Stormbringer wrote:Actually, I believe Giles gave them a 100 years figure in that episode. Which fits well enough.

Nope.

"Well, here's some good news: he's barely two hundred. He's not
even as old as Angel is." -Giles

You could just chalk it up to the book being wrong. But anyway, Giles said 200.

As for Angel, wouldn't he be closer to 300? I mean he was older than 200 in season 2, and then he spent a century in hell, so that would be about 300 or so.

Stormbringer · Post by **Stormbringer** » 2004-12-10 12:13pm

As for the why is Angel so tough, powerful, badass, etc, etc it really boils down to a couple things.

To start with he's the grandspawn of The Master himself (through Darla), The Master's vampiric bloodline seems to rather peculair in some ways. At the very least it seems to produce a vampire that's just nastier and more badass to begin with. We've seen a couple of Angel's erstwhile siblings and descendants and if nothing else descent from The Master seems to give them a leg up on qualities that accumulate with age. They seem to be a cut above the rest in terms of strength, magical abilities, and other things. Drusilla seems to be a strong case with her visions and magic affinities, though what came from the person and what from the vamping is debateable.

Second of all, Angel's a relatively old vampire. Not quite the 800 to 1000 years of some of the others, but 200+ is quite respectable. Given that reaching 100 seems especially noteworthy, Giles seems to think that significant with regards to Spike, and Angel's got at least twice that if not quite a bit more. We don't know how the demon dimension works, we've mostly got Giles's speculations and Angels admittedly madness tinged accounts. But that can help but put some mileage on the old carcass.

Third, Angel is just badass to begin with. He started life as a 18th Century Irish Tavern brawler. If I remember right he's been shown doing Tae Kwan Do, some form of Karate, and Kendo forms. Given top physical condition and a few lifetimes of work and you have one impressively trained being. And last but not least, Angel is no small guy to begin with. Add vampiric strength and resilience to that and you get some one truly unholy.