Best post Tolkien fantasy?

Lusankya · Post by **Lusankya** » 2004-11-19 09:44am

Corum is the last of his race, which is a kinda elfy race that was destroyed by the mabden (men). It's Moorcock's only story that's based around a real language (apparently he wrote it on a rainy day in wales when he was stuck inside with only a welsh-english dictionary to read, with no corresponding english-welsh section). Anyway, he's fighting for the forces of law against all the chaos gods who are ascendant, and he has to fight the chaos lord of each of the three planes in his world.

Hawkmoon is a German prince who wants to fight agains the GranBretanian empire. Trouble is, they had captured him and put a black jewel in his skull, and if he didn't do as they wished, then they'd kill him through they jewel.

The elric saga... I don't remember too well. it's been a while since I read it.

All of his books are very sexist in a gentlemanly kind of way.

Stofsk · Post by **Stofsk** » 2004-11-19 09:46am

Lusankya wrote:All of his books are very sexist in a gentlemanly kind of way.

What do you mean?

Lusankya · Post by **Lusankya** » 2004-11-19 10:14am

They all basically say that women should be treasured and protected like delicate little flowers, and none of the heroes or anti-heroes would ever consider harming a woman in any way if they were in their right mind. And his women are always quite capable of looking after themselves, but the menfolk never let them because they consider it to be dishonourable. Very gentlemanly, and there's nothing at all wrong with it that I can see, but it's just quite a bit over the top.

Stormbringer · Post by **Stormbringer** » 2004-11-19 12:55pm

Stofsk wrote:
Murazor wrote:Michael Moorcock is extremely boring. I have nothing else to say here.
Oh thank fucking CHRIST someone else sees it too. I made the mistake of buying a fucking huge book of his Elric saga, because I heard he was good fantasy. The first story just pissed me off that I couldn't be bothered reading what other adventures he went on.

You're not the only one. His stories really are long winded and boring as hell. I bought one book, an omnibus, three years ago and have yet to finish. Moorcock won't use one word where a paragraph can be shoehorned in.

And dear fucking god, so much fucking depression! Has he written main character that doesn't sound suicidally depressed?

Stofsk wrote:Good concept though. Anti-hero, member of a society of cruel and brutal elves, albino, wielding a evil blade. Very good concepts.

Indeed, it's a great concept. One of the reasons I picked it up; damn what a waste.

speaker-to-trolls · Post by **speaker-to-trolls** » 2004-11-19 01:02pm

Stofsk wrote: What is Corum and Hawkmoon about? And does the saga of Elric get better than the initial story "Elric of Melnibone" would suggest?

The Dreamthiefs Daughter (or, Elric VS the third Reich, I shit you not), Stormbringer, and The Sailor on the Seas of Fate, in my opinion the rest are pretty much on the same level as the first book.

To answer the OP I'd say the Discworld books, particularly Small Gods and Sourcery. [/i]

Eleas · Post by **Eleas** » 2004-11-19 01:33pm

Stormbringer wrote:Indeed, it's a great concept. One of the reasons I picked it up; damn what a waste.

I have to agree here. I read Hawkmoon, and it's the same there. It has fewer good ideas, and on the whole very poor characterisation (aside from the kick-ass D'Arcy).

I can't help but feel that Moorcock gained his fame from the fact that his main characters were powergamers.

Big Phil · Post by **Big Phil** » 2004-11-19 01:52pm

Stormbringer wrote:
Stofsk wrote:
Murazor wrote:Michael Moorcock is extremely boring. I have nothing else to say here.
Oh thank fucking CHRIST someone else sees it too. I made the mistake of buying a fucking huge book of his Elric saga, because I heard he was good fantasy. The first story just pissed me off that I couldn't be bothered reading what other adventures he went on.
You're not the only one. His stories really are long winded and boring as hell. I bought one book, an omnibus, three years ago and have yet to finish. Moorcock won't use one word where a paragraph can be shoehorned in.

And dear fucking god, so much fucking depression! Has he written main character that doesn't sound suicidally depressed?

Stofsk wrote:Good concept though. Anti-hero, member of a society of cruel and brutal elves, albino, wielding a evil blade. Very good concepts.
Indeed, it's a great concept. One of the reasons I picked it up; damn what a waste.

You're right that a lot of his books are pretty long-winded and boring, but he is a pretty unique writer. An evil hero is an unusual figure.

I'm surprised that nobody's mentioned the David Eddings books... or should I say the one book that he has rewritten 25 times.

Eleas · Post by **Eleas** » 2004-11-19 01:56pm

SancheztheWhaler wrote: You're right that a lot of his books are pretty long-winded and boring, but he is a pretty unique writer. An evil hero is an unusual figure.

He's really an anti-hero, and that's more common than you think.

Guardsman Bass · Post by **Guardsman Bass** » 2004-11-19 03:24pm

I liked some of the first few books of the Forgotten Realms, such as Salvatore's earlier works like the Drizzt Trilogy or the first book in the Shard Trilogy. Beyond that, they degenerated quickly as Drizzt became a battle god, particularly after his "death" to Artemis Entreri, but were still okay reads.

I've only read a small bit of Song, but I like it. Just can't seem to find it at the library.

Imperial Overlord · Post by **Imperial Overlord** » 2004-11-19 04:25pm

Hmmm. I finished the Elric saga during the 5th and 6th grade and I was miserable for a good chunk of those years. I may be seeing the series through rose coloured glasses.

Stormbringer · Post by **Stormbringer** » 2004-11-19 04:55pm

Eleas wrote:
SancheztheWhaler wrote: You're right that a lot of his books are pretty long-winded and boring, but he is a pretty unique writer. An evil hero is an unusual figure.
He's really an anti-hero, and that's more common than you think.

I've got to agree, his hero while potentially interesting never seem to pan out.

Post by **Alyrium Denryle** » 2004-11-19 05:01pm

the Avatar trilogy was damn good, taking place during the Time of Troubles in the realms

Imperial Overlord · Post by **Imperial Overlord** » 2004-11-19 05:04pm

The first two were decent, but the third where Cyric goes from human being to cackling villian, sucked.

SirNitram · Post by **SirNitram** » 2004-11-19 06:17pm

Imperial Overlord wrote:The first two were decent, but the third where Cyric goes from human being to cackling villian, sucked.

Prince of Lies regains some of that ground.

Sadly, a Cyric Fanboy wrote the conclusion of the Avatar novels, Crucible.

Imperial Overlord · Post by **Imperial Overlord** » 2004-11-19 06:21pm

Too bad. I stopped reading the Avatar series after the third.

Lynn Abbey's Darksun and FR novels are great. I have yet to see a better depiction of the Red Wizards than that found in The Simbul's Gift.

SirNitram · Post by **SirNitram** » 2004-11-19 06:24pm

Ed Greenwood's were pretty much solid hitters until Elminster's Daughter. He was too enarmoured of his own character there.

Imperial Overlord · Post by **Imperial Overlord** » 2004-11-19 06:27pm

That's the problems with the previous novels. I guess it got worse. He's an Elminster fanboy (yes, El is his own creation which doesn't make him immune) and it shows. Compare and contrast with Rise and Fall of a Dragon King by Lynn Abbey. Now his Dragon magazine articles were he "interviews" Elminster are pretty good.

Eleas · Post by **Eleas** » 2004-11-19 09:18pm

Stormbringer wrote:
Eleas wrote:
SancheztheWhaler wrote: You're right that a lot of his books are pretty long-winded and boring, but he is a pretty unique writer. An evil hero is an unusual figure.
He's really an anti-hero, and that's more common than you think.
I've got to agree, his hero while potentially interesting never seem to pan out.

And it's a fucking shame, really. I remember scenes that were really good. I liked Elric's magics partially founded on old pacts with demons and spirits. I liked a lot of stuff regarding Stormbringer, and the hedonistic and sinister lifestyle of the Imryrrians was really creepy, in a good way.

But for every such scene, we got incomprehensible or just plain substandard stuff. Like Tanelorn (what's so special about Tanelorn? It's a transdimensional city, so what?), and the whole "world-devolving-into-a-demon-infested-carneval" arc. I also recall vividly the many attempts at psychological subtexts that just never panned out.

Lusankya · Post by **Lusankya** » 2004-11-20 09:49am

And dear fucking god, so much fucking depression! Has he written main character that doesn't sound suicidally depressed?

To the best of my recollection.... no.

I'm surprised that nobody's mentioned the David Eddings books... or should I say the one book that he has rewritten 25 times.

Perhaps that's because they're crap? (That said, I think I've read the Belgariad and the Mallorean twice.... then it suddenly dawned on me that there were books out there with real people in them, rather than cookie cutter creations that were labeled not "chocolate chip" and "raisin", but instead were labeled in respect to their various races, and EVERY member of a particular race was exactly the same.)

Stormbringer · Post by **Stormbringer** » 2004-11-20 01:35pm

Eleas wrote:And it's a fucking shame, really. I remember scenes that were really good. I liked Elric's magics partially founded on old pacts with demons and spirits. I liked a lot of stuff regarding Stormbringer, and the hedonistic and sinister lifestyle of the Imryrrians was really creepy, in a good way.

Yeah, he's got some great ideas for plots and character. I particularly liked the basic foundation of Warhound and the World's Pain; the Devil wants to repent and summons this mercenary captain to help him. A golden idea if I ever saw one but it never went anywhere. Von Bek was just depressed all the time until he gets to the end; never much character development and no real growth.

Eleas wrote:But for every such scene, we got incomprehensible or just plain substandard stuff. Like Tanelorn (what's so special about Tanelorn? It's a transdimensional city, so what?), and the whole "world-devolving-into-a-demon-infested-carneval" arc. I also recall vividly the many attempts at psychological subtexts that just never panned out.

That's so true, though the Von Bek novels seem to me to be more preachy on the subject of politics (and the intro makes no bones of it) than pyschology. But the effect is just the same, it falls flat on it's face for an utter lack of any refinement.

And the substandard writing? No kidding, that happened a number of times in the Von Bek novels and it took good starts and turned them blowful.

The Dark · Post by **The Dark** » 2004-11-20 05:05pm

I like the Recluce series, though I haven't read the last few.

Weber's The War God's Own is becoming an interesting series, dealing with the Champion of a war god (chosen by the god) who comes from a race best known for fighting against that god's side in a great war.

Mercedes Lackey's Urban Elves is a good series also. It deals with magic in modern society without seeming too implausible. I didn't care for Bedlam Boyz the first time I read it, but I like the Bard sub-series within the Urban Elves series.

Jalinth · Post by **Jalinth** » 2004-11-20 10:33pm

The Dark wrote:I like the Recluce series, though I haven't read the last few.

Weber's The War God's Own is becoming an interesting series, dealing with the Champion of a war god (chosen by the god) who comes from a race best known for fighting against that god's side in a great war.

Mercedes Lackey's Urban Elves is a good series also. It deals with magic in modern society without seeming too implausible. I didn't care for Bedlam Boyz the first time I read it, but I like the Bard sub-series within the Urban Elves series.

One author I like is Jim Butcher. Its the Harry Dresden series - call it fantasy (magic) crossed with the modern world. Not necessarily super serious since it has good doses of humour, but I do like some issues he points out with wizards and other mythical figures in the modern world. These include bad interaction with electronic, the hero's car being a VW Bug, discussions about cause and effect (whether power leads to faith, or faith lead to the power). The series also has some private eye elements to it.

Has a new series just come out in hardcover - not sure whether it is as good, since it looks like a pure fantasy world setting.

Enforcer Talen · Post by **Enforcer Talen** » 2004-11-21 01:29am

anyone want to toss in simon green's hawk and fisher series?

Kitsune · Post by **Kitsune** » 2004-11-22 09:09pm

Enforcer Talen wrote:anyone want to toss in simon green's hawk and fisher series?

It is a fun series but not what I would call best

Kitsune · Post by **Kitsune** » 2004-11-22 09:20pm

I am curious if Marion Zimmer Bradley's Darkover series woudl be considered Fansasy for this category. If so, I would put her as the best

The Dark wrote:Weber's The War God's Own is becoming an interesting series, dealing with the Champion of a war god (chosen by the god) who comes from a race best known for fighting against that god's side in a great war.

I really like that series as well and was going to comment on it myself. I like how few contridictiosn eh hgas in his series.

The Dark wrote:Mercedes Lackey's Urban Elves is a good series also. It deals with magic in modern society without seeming too implausible. I didn't care for Bedlam Boyz the first time I read it, but I like the Bard sub-series within the Urban Elves series.

I like the Earlier "Urban Elves" books better than I like the later ones. Soem of her books are wonderful including "Fire Rose" and "By the Sword" but oithers are not.

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Best post Tolkien fantasy?

What's the best post Tolkien fantasy?