Having children: Blood or Person?

kojikun · Post by **kojikun** » 2004-07-26 02:12am

Bob the Gunslinger wrote:? ?

You have to be kidding.

Humans haven't been exposed to conditions that cause natural selection for a fair few millenia. Unless you want to talk about the Masai in Kenya, or perhaps social impacts on evolution, but those tend to be offset by our ability to fake the desired results.

kojikun · Post by **kojikun** » 2004-07-26 02:15am

SirNitram wrote:I eagerly await proof of this unsupported assertion. I have never heard this backed up by any legitimate source, and if that's changed, I am very eager to see it. And, given the calibur of arguments you tend to quote, deconstruct it.

What, that racism is bred into us?

SirNitram · Post by **SirNitram** » 2004-07-26 02:17am

kojikun wrote:
SirNitram wrote:I eagerly await proof of this unsupported assertion. I have never heard this backed up by any legitimate source, and if that's changed, I am very eager to see it. And, given the calibur of arguments you tend to quote, deconstruct it.
What, that racism is bred into us?

Yes. You have made a claim, now back it up. I realize this is an alien concept.

kojikun · Post by **kojikun** » 2004-07-26 02:18am

SirNitram wrote:Yes. You have made a claim, now back it up. I realize this is an alien concept.

Sorry, I thought that it was a widely understood concept. I'm digging up sources right now.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2004-07-26 02:20am

kojikun wrote:The drive to preference our own genes over that of others is precisely the reason we have racism

Prove it.

and precisely the reason people have issues with not being the biological parent of their own child.

Prove that people always have these issues. Examples have been given of people who exhibited no such issues.

Both stem from drives to ensure our genes are the surviving genes, racism specifically comes from an extension of competition within the species. It's bred into us to prefer our "kind", and our genes, above others.

Prove it. The desire to propagate your own genetic material is instinctive, it is found even in lifeforms which exhibit no social behaviour at all, and it has nothing whatsoever to do with your hypothetical drive to ensure that genetic material correlating to your "race" is propagated. In fact, you have no evidence whatsoever that this second "propagate the genes of people who are not me, but look like me" drive even exists at all on any instinctive level, as opposed to a social level.

SirNitram · Post by **SirNitram** » 2004-07-26 02:21am

kojikun wrote:
SirNitram wrote:Yes. You have made a claim, now back it up. I realize this is an alien concept.
Sorry, I thought that it was a widely understood concept. I'm digging up sources right now.

I realize it's a widely claimed comment; it sort of falls off in the face of less racism being present in diverse communities. Like integration in Alabama vs. New York. Or Massachusetts vs. whatever that state is that voted against integration a decade or so ago.

BlkbrryTheGreat · Post by **BlkbrryTheGreat** » 2004-07-26 02:26am

kojikun wrote:
SirNitram wrote:I eagerly await proof of this unsupported assertion. I have never heard this backed up by any legitimate source, and if that's changed, I am very eager to see it. And, given the calibur of arguments you tend to quote, deconstruct it.
What, that racism is bred into us?

Having the same skin color does not mean that a person is interested in, or even cares, if that person survives. History, and the daily news, bear this out. Contrast this with paternal instinct and you'll see why you're so full of shit.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2004-07-26 02:30am

Kojikun, I grow tired of your sophistry. It's perfectly obvious what this is.

You do not expect to reproduce naturally for the rest of your life. In an attempt to make yourself feel better about this failure (which you naturally characterize as a conscious decision), you engage in the worst case of pseudo-intellectual "sour grapes" rationalizing I've ever seen by attempting to portray it as evidence of moral superiority. How? By declaring that the drive to reproduce one's own genetic material is actually a drive to reproduce the genetic material of people who happen to have the same skin colour as you. Never mind that they are actually two different things; you use this cretinous confusion of terms in order to "prove" that racism is therefore inextricably tied to the desire of normal people to conceive children.

And so, you conclude triumphantly that by "choosing" not to reproduce naturally, you have actually elevated yourself above the base primitive instincts that you believe you have just proven to be inextricably tied to racism. All thanks to the simplest and most absurdly transparent fallacy in the book: the shell game, simply claiming that A and B are actually the same thing. Nobody is amused by your games. If you're angry at the world because you're an anti-social loner with no reproductive prospects, go cry in your pillow rather than trying to drag others down with another one of your self-fellating bullshit-fests.

kojikun · Post by **kojikun** » 2004-07-26 02:31am

Darth Wong wrote:Prove it.

Looking for a good source. I don't usually argue evolutionary biology so I don't know where to look.

Prove that people always have these issues. Examples have been given of people who exhibited no such issues.

Not saying they always do.

Prove it. The desire to propagate your own genetic material is instinctive, it is found even in lifeforms which exhibit no social behaviour at all, and it has nothing whatsoever to do with your hypothetical drive to ensure that genetic material correlating to your "race" is propagated. In fact, you have no evidence whatsoever that this second "propagate the genes of people who are not me, but look like me" drive even exists at all on any instinctive level, as opposed to a social level.

Entirely not what I was saying. We're bred to be xenophobic.

SirNitram wrote:I realize it's a widely claimed comment; it sort of falls off in the face of less racism being present in diverse communities. Like integration in Alabama vs. New York. Or Massachusetts vs. whatever that state is that voted against integration a decade or so ago.

Actually that decrease in racism would follow perfectly, because if you grow up with people of different ethnic backgrounds from an early age, you chances of associating them with people "other" people is lower, because you grow up without such a distinction. People aren't bred to like one type of person or skin colour, they're bred to prefer what they come to know as "their kind", whether thats a bunch of people that look exactly like them, or a bunch of people that look completely different but are from the same town, whatever. All of this competition, in sports between states to prove which is best, between nations and countries, it's all from inbred xenophobia. How it manifests is not inbred.

kojikun · Post by **kojikun** » 2004-07-26 02:35am

Darth Wong wrote:By declaring that the drive to reproduce one's own genetic material is actually a drive to reproduce the genetic material of people who happen to have the same skin colour as you.

Not what I said.

And so, you conclude triumphantly that by "choosing" not to reproduce naturally, you have actually elevated yourself above the base primitive instincts that you believe you have just proven to be inextricably tied to racism. All thanks to the simplest and most absurdly transparent fallacy in the book: the shell game, simply claiming that A and B are actually the same thing.

Again, why must I repeat this to YOU of all people: I never said they're the same thing. I said they come from the same biological drives.

SirNitram · Post by **SirNitram** » 2004-07-26 02:38am

kojikun wrote:
SirNitram wrote:I realize it's a widely claimed comment; it sort of falls off in the face of less racism being present in diverse communities. Like integration in Alabama vs. New York. Or Massachusetts vs. whatever that state is that voted against integration a decade or so ago.
Actually that decrease in racism would follow perfectly, because if you grow up with people of different ethnic backgrounds from an early age, you chances of associating them with people "other" people is lower, because you grow up without such a distinction. People aren't bred to like one type of person or skin colour, they're bred to prefer what they come to know as "their kind", whether thats a bunch of people that look exactly like them, or a bunch of people that look completely different but are from the same town, whatever.

So to cut through the bullshit, Racism isn't inborn, it's Xenophobia that is. No shit, sherlock. Racism is only born from Xenophobia when one is in a repressive, homogeneous enviroment, and are taught to feel that way. That being, you know, the fucking definition of Nuture over Nature.

So thanks for contradicting yourself, again.

Post by **Alyrium Denryle** » 2004-07-26 02:39am

kojikun wrote:
Darth Wong wrote:That is fucking stupid. The drive to reproduce and propagate one's own genetic material is intrinsic to all life forms and has nothing to do with the social behaviours that lead to racism, you idiot.
The drive to preference our own genes over that of others is precisely the reason we have racism and precisely the reason people have issues with not being the biological parent of their own child. Both stem from drives to ensure our genes are the surviving genes, racism specifically comes from an extension of competition within the species. It's bred into us to prefer our "kind", and our genes, above others.

No, they are an entirely different set if instincts you moron, and racism is mostly cultural. Social racism is completly seperate from sexual racism(or the tendency to prefer your own race sexually) which is an evolved characteristic.

The only possible genetic correlation is from an inbred fear of difference due to territoriality. We are afraid of those that arent part of our "pack"
If someone is raised in a single-race ennvironment, their instincts toward generalized xenophobia may kick in, but that is about it.

It is a nurture issue, having far more to do with how someone was raised than any sort of(unproven) genetic disposition toward racism.

YOu ony favor your own chldren PRE-CONCEPTION(as part of the drive to reproduce) after birth, you bond to the child, but you could bond to any child in the same fashion(because we are social primates and are most decidedly not indifierent toward the offspring of others). The only reason a parent has stonger ties to THEIR child(the one they raised) is because they raised it.

kojikun · Post by **kojikun** » 2004-07-26 02:46am

nitram: conceded. racism itself is not bred into us and xenophobia is.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2004-07-26 02:56am

kojikun wrote:
Darth Wong wrote:By declaring that the drive to reproduce one's own genetic material is actually a drive to reproduce the genetic material of people who happen to have the same skin colour as you.
Not what I said.

Don't play games with me, asshole. You said it's the same drive, fuckhead. You even say so later in this post.

And so, you conclude triumphantly that by "choosing" not to reproduce naturally, you have actually elevated yourself above the base primitive instincts that you believe you have just proven to be inextricably tied to racism. All thanks to the simplest and most absurdly transparent fallacy in the book: the shell game, simply claiming that A and B are actually the same thing.
Again, why must I repeat this to YOU of all people: I never said they're the same thing. I said they come from the same biological drives.

WHICH IS WHAT I DESCRIBED, FUCKHEAD. You think that the drive which creates racism (ie- the drive to propagate the genes of similar-looking people, which you cannot even prove exists) is the same as the drive which creates the desire to propagate one's OWN genetic material. Don't play these hair-splitting bullshit games with me; in case you hadn't noticed, more than a few people are losing patience with you.

kojikun · Post by **kojikun** » 2004-07-26 02:59am

You're right, you're right. I was making incorrect generalizations about racism and xenophobia. I was wrong.