Transporter Reliability Myths

[TheDarkling]

Spanky The Dolphin: So you admitting it would probably work but the feds wont use it?

[Spanky The Dolphin]

I'm not admitting a damn thing. I'm just confirming that it was only used once and only one time.

Besides, subtrans aren't reliable, and therefore not used by any of the major species. (EAS)

[TheDarkling]

The Dominion may use them.

The "it wont be used" fall back position maybe correct - I simlpy assert that it would work not will it work in warfare or would it get used in a war?

[Anarchist Bunny]

The Dominion may use them.

And I'm sure the Dominion will rush to the Federations aid the second the Feds are threatened.

[TheDarkling]

I doubt that somewhat.

Oh you were being sarcastic?

Hmm - I didnt say the Dominion would aid the Feds I simply said they may use them since Spanky The Dolphin said no major power did.

I was simply pointing something out - you assume to much.

[Typhonis 1]

hmmm subspace transporters can wok over several lightyears yay great uh oh what if the target ship moves before it reaches them ?????What is the speed limit of Subtrans?? most of the time transporters are used the targets are in synch as they move or one is stationary how would transporting to a jinking dodging ship do?

[LMSx]

Describe the situation during Descent, part 1, as it seems fairly unique.

My question that I'm getting at is how the ship was able to beam down an object from space to surface without sensors....An error by a matter of meters could end up with people ending up 20 meters in the air or buried under 20 meters of rock.

[LordShaithis]

The Dominion MAY use them? Gee, that means a whole lot.

And why SHOULD Trek be able to stop subspace transporters? They never use jamming at all. The Empire does though.

[SPOOFE]

I notice that TheDarkling is constantly repeating "It can't block subtrans", without explaining why. The impetus of proof is on HIM to show that it reliably and almost-definitely CAN do it. Conversely, the Warsies simply need to provide a reasonable doubt (it's like court in that regard) that it can't. To wit, the Warsies need only two pieces of evidence, namely:

-Transporters are fickle and easily blocked via common natural occurences or jamming.

-Imperials have access to subspace jamming.

Whether or not Imperial jamming goes "that deep" is a non-argument, as there is absolutely no way to prove either way. In other words, it is just as likely that they CAN jam that deep into subspace as it is that they CAN'T. Ergo, that argument does not positively prove anything, so based on that we cannot accept subtrans as a viable successful tactic for the Trekkie side.

[Mr Bean]

Oops you guys did not hold down the fort while I was gone
Time to hit some people with the Blinding Light of the Obvious

As Spoofe said The Burden of Proof Rests on Darkling to provide Evidance Subtrance will work
Second, Despite Geordi's Award Winning Comments

"subspace has an infinate number of domains its like a huge honey comb with an infinate number of cells" - Geordi.

"something from that deep in subspace" - Geordi

The first might be proof for your statment.
IF you could provide evidance they could use any of the other levels, And the second statment is not proof at all, Its referance is obvious to the fact that anyship in subspace has part of its mass in realspace, When you put more mass into Subspace youring Going "Deeper" in. Not into another demention or anything half similar, Simply moving more mass into Subspace, We know this because everytime they GO into subspace if they ever move more of the ship into it they refer to it as "going more in or going deeper"

THIRDLY

As I said above, Subspace is used for Communcation, Any Star-Wars Ship with its shield up can not use Long Range Communcation, Subspace Communcators are one of the Communcations methods
Also Jamming Blocks Subspace Communcation as I referance above
The Burdern of Proof is on YOU Darkling to Provided Evidance that Subspace can go through SW Shielding, AND Jamming which it singualry can't do in the SW universe oh and they don't even HAVE jamming in the ST universe

And as stated above even in subspace matter still reacts though not alot, So passing through a shield, Solid Metal, Then Bulk-heads and possibly Contatment Fields, Would be rather bad for ones heath don't you think?

To Summerize
Darkling Still needs to provided Proof that
Subspace has more USABLE levels
That these levels are not unknow to SW
That the Jammers for SW don't block all Subspace Transporters while they sure as hell block Communcations
That SW Shields Don't Block Subspace Transporters while they Block Communcation just fine
That Subspace Transports(Which just like Regluar Transports break you into Energy and send you) and Subspace Communcation(Sending Information in the Form of Energy) are fundmently diffrent from each other

Come on Darkling we are waiting

[TheDarkling]

1.Subspace has USEABLE levels - ok first off the first subspace transporter we see is also referenced as dimensaional shifting (thus it goes to another dimension).
The incident in schisms is from something on another level of subspace using a device to reach ours and in the end the crew is able to reach there dimension using an invers something or other - it is usable.
When Geordi was talking about deeper in subsapce the full quote was "something from that deep in subspace shouldnt be able to exist in our universe" - therefore deep does refer to levels.
We also have Metaphasic shielding which is a subspace shield - this didnt block subsapce comms or sensors indicating that there may be levels of subspace.

2.I see no evidence of starwars using these levels - first off they scan the entire subspace domain Ref WEG, now we know that there our more than one domain (this argument is semantical but still).
Also it seems that sensors and comms work best on the lower level domains thus why would star wars block domains that are of no military application (as far as they know).
Do we have any evidence at all that they know of these domains? no
Do we have evidence that they interact with these domains? no
If they did invaders should be coming out of subsapce to attack them - yet we have no reference of this.
We also told that the subspace domains are nigh infinite yet the Imps can scan their range in three hours and we are told that they scan some many frequencies not so many domains.
Add to this the fact that Wong says subspace may not be the same for both verses - if we take that approach then SW would have no diffence, however I am assuming they are hte same.

3.ST know how to block comms in subspace, Geordi knows this, Geordi says he doesnt think anything can stop the Subtrans, thus ST subspace commms dont block them - why? because of the Subspace strata theory (possibly) as far as we know SW jammers are similar to ST jammers thus we assume that their jammers wont work aswell.
In fact when the subspace comms is being blocked we are told that they are jamming all frequencies - so why wouldnt this work?, because subtrans doesnt use the same strata of subspace as comms.
EIther way comms jamming has no relation to subtrans jamming.

4.See above for explanation of subspace stratas, in short subspace comms have no relation to subspace comms.

5.Once again they have no relation to one another as evidence above.

I believe that answers everyones questions (and sets right the odd misunderstanding).

LMSx: The E-D couldnt scan a planet due to em interference Riker asks if they can beam down and Geordi responds "you could but there cuold be fifty borg waiting down there and we would never know", they then proceed to beam down.

Could someone tell if I came here and showed you irrefutable proof that you would agree or would you simply refuse to believe it?
It seems to me you arent judging if the tech is possible or not your trying to find ways to disporve it because you dont want it to be true - if so its impossible to change a closed mind.

Also I have given proof, I have also tried to explain why this proof is ( not really required I could simply show that comms and Subtrans have no relation but I have also tried to explain why).

Can I prove 100%? no, can I prove beyond resonable doubt? yes.
The true question is, is you doubt reasonable?

This burden of proof thing seems to been bent towards - show us where it happened, yet I cant because the two universes dont cross over so we have seen the technology interact so we take best guess estimates.

If we ask for 100% proof the entire argument breaks down - Prove phasers will be stopped by SW shields - you cant you can say "we saw this happen" and then relate it to phasers but you have to make a comparission much as I have done with SW and ST, the same with normal transporters - prove SW shields stop them, no you prove they dont and so on - the VS debate breaks down.

Sorry hat my reply wasnt speedy I was doing something else unrelated, still no reason to get testy however.

[Master of Ossus]

Darkling, if you managed to show us irrefutable proof, then we would believe you. The problem is that you have not yet done that.

1. After a point, with anything, it becomes impossible to generate more levels (or frequencies, etc.) of something and being able to differentiate between them. While, in theory, there are infinitely small frequencies for radiowaves, after a point it becomes impossible to use more than several million of them because of physical limitations that exist. When SW says that it takes an Imperator 3 hours to scan subspace, perhaps they are scanning all USABLE channels. Please note that the usable channels would be the same in ST, due to the same physical constraints that both universes have (unless you want to say that the laws of physics do not exist in both universes, or are different in both of them....)

2. Your argument that ST knows more about subspace than SW is just wrong! The Romans used more lead (Pb) than we do, today. Does that mean that the ancient Romans knew more about lead than we do, now? No. It means that, although we have a full understanding of lead, we have found other materials that are more useful to us, or that offer us significant advantages over lead.

3. I'm just going to copy one of your quotes and have you respond to it:

"subspace comms have no relation to subspace comms."

4. If you tried beaming onto another ship, and were off by fifty centimeters, than whatever you were transporting would wind up half in and half out of a bulkhead. It would be EXTREMELY difficult to beam down to something without scanning it.

5. The difficulties in beaming to a ship (like you propose) would be greater than the difficulties of beaming to a planet. EM problems in the atmosphere might not stop all sensors, so perhaps the Enterprise was able to determine the location of the ground relative to the location of the Enterprise. This would explain how they knew where the ground was, but they might not know if there were borg surrounding the area.

You have not proven beyond a reasonable doubt either that your technology would work the way you are claiming, or that your tactics using this technology are viable. If you did present proof beyond a reasonable doubt, I (for one) would believe you. The fact is, though, that you have not done that yet. Please revise.

[TheDarkling]

1. Its implied that the setup is like this.

SSS 1 1 -1000 Mhz
SSS 2 1- 1000 Mhz
since they are different LEvels of subspace - as in alternate dimensions.
Yes but usable to them would be defined as Comms freqs whereas to ST usabvle mean Comms + sensors + Subtrans.

2.No its not SW discovered subspace tech 25,000 years ago and they arent exlporers so only combat apllications come into it - deeper subspace has no combat apllications (apart from subtrans which they dont have).
How knows more about stone henges construction? Us of the people that built it. Pyramids and so on.
Lead is still in use to day and we study elements as part of science thus its still under study, to the SW people its old hat.

3. Sorry I meant Subspace comms have no relation to subtrans (Im under alot of pressure, Im taking fire from all sides).

4.Well this is more would it be effective than would it work but ill give it a go.
Simply get a shuttle to do a close pass and beam 10 Ms above its self as it passes the hangar - ditto with bridge and so on - once you cripple a few ships scan them although the damage may make the scans useful.
Simply beam 6 torps on into a space and hope you get lucky.
Transport anti matter even if it ends up inside something it would still cause problems.
Those are some options off the top of my head.

5.True - I agree they more than likely did know where the ground was Im just saying it proves Transport can occur with sensors.
Yes it would be dangerous, yes it would have a failure rate however some would make it intact.


Tactics is a seperate argument that if it would work however I think I have shown the evidence that prioves beyong reasonable doubt, prehaps I havent explained it very well however.

SSS 1 1-75 MHz - Sensors. 1-1000Mhz Comms All Freqs - Subspace jamming that was employed.
SSS 2 Metaphasic Sheilding - full spectrum
SSS 3 Subspace transporter somewhere on this level.

Objects on SSS1 can not affect objects on SSS2 - at least not enough to block them.

SSS = SubSpace Strata

The above is my theory.

The fact is Subspace comms jamming does not affect subtrans and nor does metaphasic shielding.

The facts support my theory since the show that the relation between Subtrans and Subcomms is not enough to allow jamming one to affect the other.

My theory draws on several sources and tries to create a theory for the above facts however the theory may be incorrect but the facts do not change and the facts are subspace comms jamming doesnt affect subtrans.

I hope thats clearer, I also hope my diagram/table comes out alright.

[SirNitram]

Darkling:

Your entire theory seems to revolve around the idea that ST knows more about Subspace than Star Wars. You have zero proof of this, zero, nada, none. The best you can do is Geordi speculating on how many discreet dimensional sets occupy 'subspace', which you, through a leap in logic, interperate as the SW Galaxy not knowing of more than communications layers. I challenge you to prove conclusively that the Federation knows more than the Empire on subspace.

HINT: You must explain why after 25,000 years of use, the Empire does not know more.

[TheDarkling]

No my theory does not revolve around that at all however I will elaborate further later - im going out be back in around 3 hours.

[SirNitram]

Credit to www.theforce.net/swenc. Only those passages quoted from Official material included. Search was run for 'Subspace' in 'title and description'.

Chedak Communications
manufacturers of shipboard subspace radios

Frequency Agile
this was the brand name of Chedak's subspace transceiver. Like other subspace transceivers, the Frequency Agile system was used for faster-than-light communications between two interstellar locations.

HoloNet
once the main vehicle for spreading news instantaneously thoroughout the galaxy, the Holonet used subspace relays to transmit three-dimensional images to various holonet receivers. This media distribution system allowed the Old Republic to have instant access to any inhabited location in the galaxy. It was created from hundreds of thousands of non-mass transceivers connected through an incredible matrix of coordinated SimuTunnels. Each endpoint was equippde with a huge computer system that decoded and sorted the transmitted information. Unfortunately, the HoloNet was incredibly expensive to maintain and operate. Thus, its use was usually restricted to purely governmental transmissions. After Palpatine assumed control of the galaxy, he limited the holonet to specific Imperial uses, in order to control the flow of information through the galaxy.

-Holonet is subspace-based, proving conclusively SW has better manipulation of it, due to it's superior range/lagtime to ST subspace comms.

Hyperwave Signal Interceptor
these sensory devices are used to detect fluctuations in the field that separates realspace from the hyperspacial continuum. These fluctuations are caused when a starship enters or exits hyperspace, and so these sensors can be used to determine the mass, speed, and course of the starship. They cannot, however, determine the ship's point of origin or destination. These sensors also detect subspace and hyperspace transmissions.

Identify Friend or Foe Transponder
known as an IFF transponder, this device is a kind of subspace radio wave generator used to provide a wimple way to identify a starship. It provides a burst of information about the ownership and registry of a starship, which can be analyzed by IFF receivers. If the codes check out, the starship is a friend. If not, then it's a foe. Many planetary traffic control systems have their own codes, to mark their native ships. Smugglers usually had two or three IFF transponders on their ships, which coulfd be swapped out for different identities. One of the more famous IFF transponder codes was the Alderaanian code used to link the Another Chance to its protective escort

InfoCore
this device was essentially a subspace relay system. However, it was a military device used to send a tight-beam transmission to a predetermined source, and was used by espionage agents to receive regular bursts of data from a planted droid or other device. The InfoCore could also be told to download information on the fly, by sending it a pre-determined, high-frequency signal.

(Solely for amusement:

Modern Galactic Light Time
abbreviated MGLT, this is the standard measurement for subspace velocity. 1 MGLT is approximately equal to 10 km/h (6.4 mph)

Obviously, the stated speed-equivalence is directly contradicted by various other sources. But it offers interesting questions on whether a SW ship has a backup, subspace based FTL system.)

Mytag Crystals
a very common crystal vertex used as oscillators in old subspace communications and detection gear. Xim the Despot, realizing the need for wide-ranging communication for his forces, had planned to stockpile mytag crystals in his vaults on Dellalt. Thus, the Queen of Ranroon was loaded with crystals when it was hidden on Dellalt. When Han Solo discovers the starship, he finds that the rumored treasure of Xim was really just a vast supply of military supplies.

-Subspace sensors dating back to before the Old Republic, a whopping 250,000 years.

Subspace antenna
a horseshoe-shaped magnet wrapped with two layers of conductive wire, used to generate the magnetic fields required to send a subspace transmission.

-SW subspace comms use electromagnetics. Given the bang-for-buck of electromagnetics, this is a good thing.

Subspace Relay Station
this 100-meter long, spindle-shaped station is depolyed in many star systems for a number of uses. Often denoted as an SRS, these unmanned stations are placed in a slow, distant orbit around a system's star. From this vantage point, they relay intra-system broadcasts. The SRS can also act as a collision defense system, since they are armed with twelve laser cannons. Any inbound asteroids can be shot down with these cannons before they collide with the station.

-SW subspace relay station could beat up a ST subspace relay station.

[Master of Ossus]

1. How can you access infinitely many dimensions of subspace? There must be SOME kind of physical limit that prevents the use of more than (let's say) a few million different levels.
2. How do you know that only the "least deep" levels of subspace can be used to communications? Perhaps in the SW universe, many levels are used for communications. This would make sense, since military communications (like those used for ISD's) are referred to as being handled completely seperately than civilian "channels."
3. SW PROBABLY DID discover subspace 25,000 years ago, and possibly even more distantly in the past than that. Aliens in the SW universe were spectacularly powerful long before humans ever came. Vuffi Raa, the Corellian system, and several other bits of "ancient technology" were created by the aliens, which are only now being studied in the SW universe completely. SW does have something that does appear comparable in several respects to your subspace transporter (haven't you ever heard of Magwit's Mystifying Hoop?) but it is not used for military applications. Perhaps you don't know as much about SW as you at first appeared to.
4. Your "tactic" requires that you have ALREADY crippled a few ships, which likely would never happen in a real Empire vs Federation conflict. It also requires that there be time left in the war for SF to scan such vessels. This tactic was first proposed as a first strike method ("welcome to our neighborhood?"), and now you are admitting that it could not be used as such. You have never shown that a subspace transporter can operate on antimatter (the shuttle was beamed using a standard transporter), and you have still not demonstrated that different levels of subspace CANNOT be used for communication (in fact, the subspace transporter definitely could be).

[Master of Ossus]

Basically, Darkling, SirNitram has a perfectly good reason to be dancing. SW may even be able to manipulate subspace better than even those eggheads of SF.

[TheDarkling]

SirNitram: As I stated before the SW/ST knowledge of subspace is not relevant and your information proves that SW have a better grasp of subspace comms not of subspace itself.

The fact is the SW is interested in science for its benefits whereas the ST boys just love science.

All you have proven is that subspace comms is more advanced in the empire not that it opertes on different principles.

Ok now as I said it isnt relevant onto what is.

We have two questions before us (assuming the imps know of the other subspace realms).

Can the imps block ever subspace realm?
Would/Do the imps block every subspace realm?

This first question is an unknown - the laws of reality alter between each subspace reaml thus having a method to block each one wuold take a huge amoubnt of research and many differing pieces of technology not to mention power.

The second question, Do they?
Well heres the thing - why would they?
If comms/sensors only work on one strata why block every other level which are useless as far as the imps know.
So we dont have a reason to do so - lets pretend that they decide to look into doing it anyway.
First off the power requirements to blck near infinite realms for no reason would be prohibitive - why would a warship waste power (yes theres no reason to block the other domains) when that power could go to weapons of shields.
We also have the concern of equipment - since physics varies from one domain to another the ship would have to care multiple devices since there isnt a one device fits all - thus taking up space that could be used for weapons, sensors and so on.
This jamming would lead many aliens in the various realms to notice the empire - a distinct disadvantage.

To sum up :-
The imps may or may not now of the various subspace domains (its possible the knowledge was lost since it was of no more importance).
The imps would have no reason to block the other realms except a better safe than sorry policy.
This policy would require huge amounts of research into the various realms of subspace.
Jamming these realms may or may not be possible.
If it can be do the jamming would require huge amounts of power and storage space (wasted for no reason).
If this went a head it would alert every single being living in all the subspace realms.

So wasting of resources for no combat reasons goes against everything the empire is about - Brute force, they dont bother being customisable like the Feds they simple destroy and hats what their ships are designed for.

Now to answer Master of Ossus.

1.Why must ther be a limit and even if there is the word infinite implies its a huge limit.
2.I assume that the least deep levelshave the closest link to our reality since humans can survive in subspace where warp travel occurs yet in the deep subspace realm weird physics took over and humans couldnt survive there properly.
3.No they did discover subspace tech at least 25,000 years ago - its a canon fact.
No I have not heard of this device - could I have more info, however if it isnt military then Imp ships have no need to block it.
4.No it doesnt - I proposed many tactics, the shuttle and the hangar fly by, I simply said that deeper into the war the tactics could be further improved by scanning imps ships.

I will call it 5. I guess.

5.Its may be true that subspace can be better used by the imps but that doesnt mean that a ship designer understands all about subspace - he simply understands subspace radio and how to block it and thus he incorperates this into his design, what else does he need?.

I will once again reiterate Subspace comms blocking cant stop Subtrans thus there is no link (at least enough to be useful) between the two.

[SirNitram]

Now you're just ignoring us, Darkling. It's been repeatedly driven home that SW shields block subspace sensors and comms. This is part of how they work, and as innate as a ST shields basis on frequency.

You can claim a subspace transporter works on a different 'level' of subspace, but you have no proof... NONE... that this would not be blocked. Geordi's quotes mean nothing, absolutely NOTHING when discussing the Empire, unless you are guilty of a leap in logic, that the Empire has thrown away Subspace tech(Flat out lie, as I demonstrated).

You claim the Empire can't be using deeper levels of subspace with no proof, you make endless guesses with no proof. I want quotes, Darkling, not 'Well, uhhh, they only use it for comms and sensors far beyond what the Federation can manage, so they can't be using deeper layers'.

Put up, or shut up.

[TheDarkling]

Subspace comms blocking doesnt affect subtrans - how much plainer can I make it?.

The entire levels theory is attempt to explain the above but the simple fact is above.

I do have evidence that points to it working on a different level but once again see the tiop of my post for what really matters.

I admit that the imps use subspace tech , did you read post - honestly? if so why accuse me of this when you know it isnt true?

Once again thats he theory (which fits the facts at hadn.) however see the first line of my post.

I can shout at the top of my lungs and yet you still wont hear me.

Im not ignoring you at all its just - see the top of this post.

You simply must not be reading my posts I have evidence but I agree I cant prove it works on many levels, I have admitted this and also said that the theory doesnt negate the facts - yet you attack the theory - why?

[Grand Admiral Thrawn]

Has anyone mentioned shields block short range communications (HTE, DFR, TLC) that should include subspace comunications

[TheDarkling]

Grand Admiral Thrawn: Yes however its supposed to long range comms either way see first line of my previous post.

[Grand Admiral Thrawn]

Grand Admiral Thrawn: Yes however its supposed to long range comms either way see first line of my previous post.

WTF does that mean? SubCom doesn't block SubTrans? Of course it doesn't!

[TheDarkling]

Blocking Subcom doesnt affect Subtrans.

The imps are blocking Subcomm not subtrans - since the two are seperate what affects one doesnt affect the other.