Cross Universe Bar Fight

[Zed Snardbody]

Three soilders from their respective universes walk into a bar, no armour, no weapons, just plain clothes a bad attitude an 1 or 2 drinks in them to get the ready to defend the honor of their empires. Hailing from the three greatest human empires we have a SW Storm Trooper, a Earth Force Marine, and a Starfleet Ground pounder. The discusion gets heated and a brawl breaks out. Who walks out, and which two are left to pay for the damages? Bais this on training, onscreen evidence, and informed opinion.

I personaly think its a toss up between the trooper and the marine. Too hard to tell, for me anyway.

[Howedar]

I agree.

[SCVN 2812]

At the start of the brawl, the stormtrooper trips, falls and renders himself unconcious while the Starfleet security officer and the Earth Force marine slug it out. The Marine gets in several good punches but the Starfleet officer's martial arts training eventually allows him to get the upper hand and he disables his opponent with the minimum of force neccessary, which does cause him to take several more nasty punches. The stormtrooper is just beginning to wake up, muttering something about furry little bastards, it is quite obvious that the trooper was having alcohol induced nightmares while unconcious. The Starfleet officer briefly considers engaging him but instead walks away, leaving the Stormtrooper slowly picking himself up after the slapstick blow to the head and the EA marine unconcious.

Annoyed, the Stormtrooper kicks the EA marine while he's down, only to discover the marine is not quite unconcious after all, but just playing possum in order to get a chance to recover. He grabs the troopers foot and pulls him to the floor and delivers a two fisted blow to the face. The marine follows it up with an uppercut, causing the trooper to stumble backwards and strike his head on a low doorway, rendering him unconcious-again.

The trooper does not pick up the tab, and instead pulls a holdout blaster, and is prompty cut down by...a Highguard Lancer?

[master_yoda]

Agreed

[Howedar]

Pajama-clad Feddie amature archaeologist beats up two real soldiers? Comical.

[Anarchist Bunny]

I've yet to see any storm trooper hand to hand skills or the ability to take a beating (ROTJ), so he's out quick, and pansy thin little starfleet officers would be nothing to the marine.

[LordShaithis]

"The Marine gets in several good punches but the Starfleet officer's martial arts training eventually allows him to get the upper hand"

ROFLMAO!!!!!

[LordShaithis]

By the way, what the fuck is Earth Force? Is that some Babylon 5 shit? Look, I'm sorry Babblers, but the Big Three is really the Big Two. Cable TV horseshit doesn't cut it.

[Faram]

Send in the marines from Aliens

[Mr Bean]

I know! Might as well stick CONNAN in there!(Whats a bar fight without Connan?)

Or a space Marine from 40k

[Grand Admiral Thrawn]

Stormie or the Marine. I say Stormie just cause of preference.

[Mr Bean]

We missed somthing

Stormys don't go anywhere without a gun
Why? They are brainwased for the Emperor Soilder types
Even in a bar I think the'd bring a blaster

Same would be true of the Marine but we all know about them

[Captain Cyran]

Yes but there is that all deadly Feddie two handed downward judo chop. Yeah nevermind that. Federation guy gets beat down by both the Stormtrooper and the Marine then it's a toss up between those two.

[Howedar]

By the way, what the fuck is Earth Force? Is that some Babylon 5 shit? Look, I'm sorry Babblers, but the Big Three is really the Big Two. Cable TV horseshit doesn't cut it.

Can we say "Troll"?

[2000AD]

We haven't seen any Stromie HtH combat in the movies and there is very little in the books (that I know of) one such example is from The Bacta War:

"That blow., though grandly struck to great effect, was a mistake and Corran knew it. Though it pooped the man's head off (n.b. Corran is weilding a lightsabre) and sent it flipping up through the air, it aslo allowed Corran's arm to carry to fdarback. Sliding forward towardt the next stormtrooper in linehe watsed a second bringing the LS back into striking position. He tried a high, two-handed cut that should have split the stormtrooper from outside shoulder to inside hip, but the Imp had already begun to turn towards the attack and ducked it.
The Stormtrooper lunged toward Corran, catching him with a shoulder in the ribs. The stormtrooper drove him back, slamming him into the ferrocrete wall. Corran felt something crunch in his chest, then he couldn't breathe. The LS fell from Corran's hand as the Imp drove him again into the wall, pinning him there, crushing him. Corran stared into the black lenses of the man's helmet and heard a low chuckling."

The key things to note are that the stormie was already reacting to the attack and also exploited the mistake made. Being a former member of Corsec (Corellian Security) and then a member of the New Rep. Military Corran was well trained in unarmed combat, and I assume also trained in the use of bludgeoning weapons, like truncheons, which he was using the lightsabre like in this particular fight. The stormtrooper was still able to beat him.

I assume that stormies get extensive combat training in all forms of combat.

Also, since the origional Stormies were clones of Jango Fett, and Jango gave us a little bit of an insight into his HtH skills when fighting Obi1, I assume that some of the stormies have either inherited his skills or their training program may include them.

[Grand Admiral Thrawn]

By the way, what the fuck is Earth Force? Is that some Babylon 5 shit? Look, I'm sorry Babblers, but the Big Three is really the Big Two. Cable TV horseshit doesn't cut it.

Babylon 5 doesn't rely on ship/race of the week, technobabble, time travel and when bad tech attacks to come up with a plot atleast

[SirNitram]

By the way, what the fuck is Earth Force? Is that some Babylon 5 shit? Look, I'm sorry Babblers, but the Big Three is really the Big Two. Cable TV horseshit doesn't cut it.

Boys.... Take him out and hang him.

[SCVN 2812]

Oh yes, Starfleet officers are such wusses. Being able to go hand to hand with Klingons, who are physically stronger with greater endurance than the average human and spend their entire lives fighting, and win makes then real pansies. Mock the 2 fisted judo chop all you want, but it's damn effective and served many a starfleet officer well in just about every hand to hand battle we've ever seen. Nearly all starfleet officers have basic hand to hand training with the possible exception of those in the medical/science fields but even that I doubt, security officers would receive additional training as their main job is being the grunts of Starfleet. Jem'Hadar, Klingons, Romulans, genetically enhanced humans 3x stronger than normal humans, Jem'Hadar all are physically superior to the average human who makes up the bulk of starfleet and all have had the crap kicked out of them on numerous occassions by starfleet officers.

Now compare that to EA marines who while tough are not all that impressive and in hand to hand, were mostly taken down by B5's narn security force (who probably didn't even have the advantage of numbers given their tactic of running in single file into a blaze of hostile ppg fire) when an Omega-class destroyer marine squad boarded the station.

And Stormtroopers who routinely are victims of slapstick mishaps such as striking one's head on low door frames and being pummeled by Ewoks.

[tharkûn]

Don't watch enough B5 to know about the marine, but a few thoughts on the stormie and the feddie.

First off why do militaries train in HtH combat?
1. Conditioning. Martial arts are good ways to exercise and keep the body strong. The are also useful for mental conditioning
2. Non lethal combat. HtH is a good thing for your soldiers to know if they will be conducting missions with live rounds, but need to be able to withstand the occasional scuffle. Think peacekeepers.
3. In case of disarming. Most often this is after capture. If you don't have a weapon HtH is a good to know (namely so you can kill an enemy and take his gun).
4. Covert uses. Most commonly simply to sneak up behind a sentry, take him out without a lot of noise (like say firing an assualt rifle). Often tasks are better undertaken with silenced weapons, knives or other low tech options ... like say crossbows). Shooting guns tends to attract attention. A good quick blow to the base of the skull does attract as much.
5. Ceremonial. Like why our marines still come with swords on occasion.
6. Recreational.
7. Your position gets overrun and you aren't armed.

Now let's look at the stormie ... say a veteran of several campaigns. First off the stormy is part of an efficient army that is not terribly particular about being "humane". Frankly they won't give a flying frik about being non-lethal. So I highly doubt the empire puts terribly much emphasis on HtH combat for humanitarian reasons.

The feddie on the otherhand is never expected to fight a real war (aka total war) without a klingon there to do the dirty work. His government revels in being humane and non-lethal. Most likely its part of the indoctrination.

The stormie is not expected to get caputered. In a military which actually fights at range with rather nasty weapons stormies aren't going to be captured terribly much. Given some of Luke's comments about their intelligence (and no I don't recall the book, but it was something to the effect that all the smart ones had defected) I don't think many are expected to escape using HtH combat (and we do know that large numbers of stormies have been held captive for years).

The feds on the other hand seem to be captured on a monthly basis and are expected to try to escape using HtH combat. I mean seriously how many real life soldiers do you know who get captured multiple times and escape multiple times? Yet this seems all too common for the feddies.

Neither side has particular use for HtH in covert use. Stormies just aren't used all that much as covert troops and even if they were stun shots seem like they'd be much more effective. Likewise the infamous trekkie stun beam would be more useful for covert missions. Now it might be nice if you are going somewhere weapons can't (like say a diplomatic reception), however if you are working that line, most likely you are not talking an average soldier.

Ceremonial could go either way. On one hand stormies revel in combat, on the other starfleet has a fetish with all things "ethnik", like say aikido or jujitsu.

Recreational would like go the feddie's way. I mean hell these people play with oversized swords ... and the holodeck offers all manner of training.

The last is the kicker in my opinion. Stormies fight at range. 90% of the time they couldn't engage in HtH combat if they wanted to do so. Rather they sit back, take shots ... or rush the enemy while firing from the hip/shoulder as the case may be. In the event it gets *real* close fighting ... a brutal and efficient army would be issued knives. Knives work "wonderfully" at close range. While I can't recall ever seeing a stormie knife ... it would be downright moronic not to give your troops an easy close range weapon ... like a good "old-fashioned" combat knife. Frankly extensive HtH combat training is a waste. The time is much better spent working with guns or whatever melee weapon you are given.

The feddies on the other hand *routinely* get overrun and the fight deginerates into HtH combat. For some unknown reason the feds don't issue knives to their troops (I recall *1* episode where a guy used a knife instead of turning his phaser rifle into a club ... and that had *no* indication of being "standard issue" as he leaves it sticking it the ground when he leaves). No a good feddie soldier would realize that because of the stupidity of his superiors ... its quite probable he's going to face enemy at close range without any weapons. Now assuming he has some brains and survival instinct he might seek to learn HtH combat ... and assuming he's actually survived federation leadership on the battlefeild ... well survival of the fittest and all.

All in all the feddie has much more incentive to be proficient in HtH combat ... his life may well depend on it and it is likely to be part of the official practice. The stormie will so rarely use HtH combat in the line of duty its really a waste for him to study it except for recreation or conditioning. The time would be much better spent working on marksmanship, endurance, firefight tactics, etc. I mean seriously how much time do your average soldiers today spend training on HtH combat? How much more time do they spend at the firing range, marching, ranged exercises, etc.?

Now conditioning is the big factor in favor of the stormie. The stormie goes through training which is extremely intense, whereas the feddie probably had a glorified gymn class. We tend to see very fit specimans in ST, likewise in SW.

A few other notes:
"pajamas" are damn good to fight in. Just ask anyone in martial arts. For HtH you want clothes that don't impede your movement and preferably breath to release heat.


<<, but the Imp had already begun to turn towards the attack and ducked it.
The Stormtrooper lunged toward Corran, catching him with a shoulder in the ribs. The stormtrooper drove him back, slamming him into the ferrocrete wall. Corran felt something crunch in his chest, then he couldn't breathe. The LS fell from Corran's hand as the Imp drove him again into the wall, pinning him there, crushing him. Corran stared into the black lenses of the man's helmet and heard a low chuckling." >>
This would be an example of *bad* HtH combat. A LS is just a glorified knife ... and should be treated as suck. Bull rushing a knife is among the stupider things to do because:
1. A good opponent will let you impale yourself on the blade and then get the hell out of the way.
2. Or a good opponent will sidestep and slash as you trip past.
3. Even if you are successful in pinning the opponent, they should then begin using your back as a pin cushion. Possibly slashing your sides. You are in close range and your weight is against you moving. A shoulder to the chest is damn ineffective at stopping the opponent from slicing you to hell and back. If Corran had actually held onto the lightsabre, the stormie is *dead*.


A better tactic is to try to grab the blade weilding arm so *you* now control the blade, or better still a good throw (high two hand shots are just begging to be thrown). The only reason the stormies actions make *any* sense is that he is wearing body armor, but I'd still try to avoid pinning one arm against my opponents chest.

Sorry but this doesn't say anything about stormie HtH combat, it does say *alot* about the stupidity of Corran. Two hand blows are for when you need the extra force ... which a LS shouldn't need ... better to maximize your range. When you make a mistake ... step away, really its that simple you stepped forward, screwed up, so now buy yourself time to recentre by stepping away. High blows are for idiots. Its damn easy to duck out of a strike aimed at the head and shoulder ... go for the gut. Its closer the centre of gravity (harder to move out of the way), much harder use as a throw (yes it can be done, just not as easily), and most people just don't fight that well when their intestines are hanging out of a hole in the gut. It also has the advantage of keeping the blade between you and the opponent ... so if they rush you can let their momentum impale them for you.

Sorry but all this sequence shows is that Corran is lousy fighter and the stormie got lucky against someone commiting multiple mistakes. The stormie didn't capitalize on the error in any remarkable way ... certainly not one indicative of extensive HtH combat training. More like one born of quick reflexes and adrenaline.

Anyway in the end I think any feddie who actually lived through a real war as an infantry grunt will have undoubtly learned more HtH combat ... because its simply need to have a reasonable expectation of staying alive when you are ill-equiped, without coherent tactics, and wear are shirt that screams "target". The big thing going for the imp is that their training (going be the books) is undoubtedly more intense ... but how much that carries over is unkown.

Some here is my bet:
TOS the feddie wins (hell we've actually seen them brawling)
TNG the stormie wins (unless we go with some freakishly strong/quick alien or somebody who know the "vulcan nerve pinch")
DS9 dunno, depends on who and how much time they've spent "in the trenches"
VOY the federation loses
ENT dunno know enough, don't care to.

[SCVN 2812]

For a reponse to your ignorant comment about indoctrination see the What's the point of it all? thread.

[Mr. B]

[quote="2000AD"]We haven't seen any Stromie HtH combat in the movies and there is very little in the books (that I know of) one such example is from The Bacta War:

Ever seen that little film called Return of the Jedi. On Endor Han Solo and a Scout Trooper duke it outr in hand to hand.

[Master of Ossus]

Oh yes, Starfleet officers are such wusses. Being able to go hand to hand with Klingons, who are physically stronger with greater endurance than the average human and spend their entire lives fighting, and win makes then real pansies. Mock the 2 fisted judo chop all you want, but it's damn effective and served many a starfleet officer well in just about every hand to hand battle we've ever seen. Nearly all starfleet officers have basic hand to hand training with the possible exception of those in the medical/science fields but even that I doubt, security officers would receive additional training as their main job is being the grunts of Starfleet. Jem'Hadar, Klingons, Romulans, genetically enhanced humans 3x stronger than normal humans, Jem'Hadar all are physically superior to the average human who makes up the bulk of starfleet and all have had the crap kicked out of them on numerous occassions by starfleet officers.

Now compare that to EA marines who while tough are not all that impressive and in hand to hand, were mostly taken down by B5's narn security force (who probably didn't even have the advantage of numbers given their tactic of running in single file into a blaze of hostile ppg fire) when an Omega-class destroyer marine squad boarded the station.

And Stormtroopers who routinely are victims of slapstick mishaps such as striking one's head on low door frames and being pummeled by Ewoks.

Why do you make fun of the EA marines being defeated by Narn when you yourself boast that SF officers went hand to hand against Klingon warriors? Narn are also tougher and stronger than humans, and GROPOS went up against Minbari during the war. Are they wussies?

Are you seriously pushing the idea that SF could defeat stormtroopers? I think you overestimate their chances! Stormtroopers do not waste time learning to use worthless bat'leths and then charging into combat using clumsy, ceremonial, heavy weapons. Stormtroopers have rifles for a reason. It doesn't matter how "tough" the Zulus were, the fact is that they were not tough enough to stand up to musket fire. No human could do that. No one in any universe, with the possible exceptions of Vorlons and Shadows and Sith, could be tough enough to stand up to E-11 fire from Stormtroopers.

[starfury]

I also had to metion what that damm minbari fighting pike is like, we often see marcus routinely shove it down a person's chest. Personally like you I belive the stormtrooper, the hardened killer of the three will win, as the Earthforce marine was meant to be tough but not a killing machine like the stormie, either's armor should offer some measure of protection vs the "pajamas" of the federation soldier, as for the jedi fight, I recall in crimson empire, those imperial guardsmen being pretty efficient in smashing normal soldiers, and they are weaker then jedi or sith.

[tharkûn]

Sigh the original question was about a *BARFIGHT*, aka a brawl, aka a fistfight. Its an offense designed to land you a few days without pay, maybe a few lousy duty shifts, or time in the brig ... NOT a frikking grand court martial and possible life sentance/death penalty.


With real weapons the feddie is dead, but with a little ethanol, some fists a good TOS feddie might win ... as storm troopers wouldn't waste their time learning to fight unarmed.

[CNS Sarajevo]

EA marine > stormie. The Fed ground pounder is a fictitious character even in his own universe.

Colonial marine wipes up the floor with all of them.

At the same time.

BYE