Imperial Soldiers.

Asst. Asst. Lt. Cmdr. Smi · Post by **Asst. Asst. Lt. Cmdr. Smi** » 2002-10-19 09:51pm

This argument again?

Well, I was tihking that some Stormtroopers were clones, but when they needed more, they drafted non-clones. I don't feel like debating.

As for the families, I'd say that most of them don't have families, because before they joined the Imperial ranks, they were too young. But, some of them might have left their families, like what has happened in past wars on Earth.

Alyeska · Post by **Alyeska** » 2002-10-19 10:10pm

It is possible that Stormies were of a different type of clone compared to the Thrawn or Clone Wars troops. It is possible that the Stormies have some genetic diversity, and that they are clones from the best normal troops that are recruited. That way you get new genes into the clonning and no genetic disease can take down all of them. It might also mean they were raised in a different way, and possibly took more time compared to the Thrawn clones, but faster then the Clone War clones.

EU literature says that Stormies are the shock troops of the empire, but very well equiped shock troops that are more effective then standard army units. They have good equipment, and their armor makes them stronger. They are also supossed to be very well trained. Suppose the Rebellion struck the Storm Trooper cloning facilities and all that left the Empire with was the drafted and recruited Storm troopers.

Spartan · Post by **Spartan** » 2002-10-19 10:47pm

Al's reference clearly states that Stormtroopers are clone, it does not mention any other MOS.

My guess would be that after the clone wars they accessed the clones performance and found them wanting as pilots, and officers due to there limited iniative. They then decided to expand the Republic training facilities on Cardia (thus explaning how on planet could possibly train the billions of military personel the Empire requires).

Tie pilots and officers are not clones for the same reason they don't use droids in though positions. As for the AT-AT pilots it is not neccessary for them to be clones for the same reasons.

Alyeska wrote:

It is possible that Stormies were of a different type of clone compared to the Thrawn or Clone Wars troops. It is possible that the Stormies have some genetic diversity, and that they are clones from the best normal troops that are recruited. That way you get new genes into the clonning and no genetic disease can take down all of them. It might also mean they were raised in a different way, and possibly took more time compared to the Thrawn clones, but faster then the Clone War clones.

With Jango dead they would need to find alternate source material. The Emperors Royal Guardsmen would make excellent templates.

I'm sure they would use the method Thrawn did, it would just take a year to grow a fully trained non-insane clone. Thrawn accelerated there growth by blocking the Force.

Darth Yoshi · Post by **Darth Yoshi** » 2002-10-19 11:02pm

The original stormtroopers were probably clones, but with backlash against cloning after the war the Empire started recruitment. Also, the backlash means no new clones, and the originals would be getting old, so they'd be taken off the field and turned into instructors.

Post by **Vympel** » 2002-10-19 11:43pm

They already have Jango's source material.

I want to know where the thing about Temura Morrison doing voiceovers for the stormies in the OT come from. If that's the case, then all our attempts to rationalize the EU come to absolutely nothing.

Alyeska · Post by **Alyeska** » 2002-10-20 12:09am

Darth Yoshi wrote:The original stormtroopers were probably clones, but with backlash against cloning after the war the Empire started recruitment. Also, the backlash means no new clones, and the originals would be getting old, so they'd be taken off the field and turned into instructors.

The whole idea about the Backlash of cloning is written by authors who were under the presumption that the last clones used were in the Clone Wars. That idea has been disproven. Now all we have is a partial society averssion to Clones, but not greatly so. I find it entirely possible that Stormies were of a different type of Clone and the Rebellion struck the facility that allowed this in order to shorten the Imperial supply of cloned stormies. This would explain why later in the war that Stormies are rare.

Stormbringer · Post by **Stormbringer** » 2002-10-20 12:16am

Alyeska wrote:
Darth Yoshi wrote:The original stormtroopers were probably clones, but with backlash against cloning after the war the Empire started recruitment. Also, the backlash means no new clones, and the originals would be getting old, so they'd be taken off the field and turned into instructors.
The whole idea about the Backlash of cloning is written by authors who were under the presumption that the last clones used were in the Clone Wars. That idea has been disproven. Now all we have is a partial society averssion to Clones, but not greatly so. I find it entirely possible that Stormies were of a different type of Clone and the Rebellion struck the facility that allowed this in order to shorten the Imperial supply of cloned stormies. This would explain why later in the war that Stormies are rare.

All we have are a few statements and rumors. Until something actually comes of it, it can be argued that the EU still remains valid with a bit of rationlization.

Guest · Post by **Guest** » 2002-10-20 09:50am

Also in several books it is implied that Stormies come off a production line
Corran Horn -I Jedi "The Empire didn't mint enough stormies to stop me"

willburns84 · Post by **willburns84** » 2002-10-20 09:51am

The Imperial Army is made up of more than just Stormtroopers, right? Or is the general concensus that the only infantry are Stormtroopers and that officers and those jobs needing technical expertise are the domain non-clones?

How many stormtroopers are there? I'm willing to bet that there had to be a HUGE draft, sweeping up young men into the military to supplement the clones that were already set. Proof of this? Well, other than WEG and WoTC ::groan:: AOTC mentions it takes about ten years to grow a clone to maturity and train them. The Kamionans (spelling?) have a million-odd units ready for the battle on Geonosis. Have we heard of other cloning facilities producing clones for the soon to be Empire? Surely more must exist in such a vast galaxy, but Darth Wong has a good point in AOTC analysis: It takes years to make a combat ready clone. It takes months to make a combat ready draftee. The draftee won't be as good as a clone in combat, perhaps, but there will be many many more of them ready in a much shorter time...

The Imperial Army really doesn't stand out in my memory as seeing any real action. The movies have little to show, those who are not in stormie armor with blasters in the service of the Empire appear to be military police or technicians or officers of some kind. And the books? As far as actual infantry combat scenes, the only kinds that ring a bell for me are during the Vong invasion, and that's for the New Republic...

The real question is, does the Imperial Army allow families for it's non-Jango boys?

Spartan · Post by **Spartan** » 2002-10-20 01:02pm

Stormbringer wrote:

All we have are a few statements and rumors. Until something actually comes of it, it can be argued that the EU still remains valid with a bit of rationlization.

Actually he's right, we don't see anyone being repulsed by the idea of cloning in ATOC. Not even the Jedi; so much for cloning being a great perversion of the force. If it was then the Jedi would vehemently opposed their use, but that’s not what happened was it? Jedi are peacekeepers right (like US Marshals), they don't voice a single protest. If cloning was unacceptable, then it would be illegal. True, the clones were produced in secret, but not because it's Illegal. We have canon and official evidence than there are entire races in SW that are entirely clone based, even after the clone wars.

Finally, we have GL's word that the storm troopers are clones. That's a perfect explanation as to why people hate clones, they are the Empire's mailed fist. If some clones did go mad as the Zahn’s trilogy states, that's just additional justification. The Rebels are going to smear the Imps in their propaganda campaigns anyway, using clones as a scapegoat would be very effective for them (a enemy that's different and easily demonized).

Spartan · Post by **Spartan** » 2002-10-20 01:23pm

willburns84 wrote:

The Imperial Army is made up of more than just Stormtroopers, right? Or is the general concensus that the only infantry are Stormtroopers and that officers and those jobs needing technical expertise are the domain non-clones?

Well, first off Strormtroopers are not members of the Imperial Army, they are not part of the armies command structure. They answer to the the Emperor directly, much like Hitler's SS, or Sadam's Republican Guard.

How many stormtroopers are there? I'm willing to bet that there had to be a HUGE draft, sweeping up young men into the military to supplement the clones that were already set. Proof of this? Well, other than WEG and WoTC ::groan::

Look at the size of the Galaxy and its estimated population in the Quadrillions. The Imperial army should easily number into the billions. Remember in most cases you want to take a planet intact not destroy it. A SW planet could easily have a population in the hundreds of billions to trillions (City-worlds). Imagine if they real want to resist, they have the resource to arm most if not all of the populace. Thrawn was in the process of conquering the Unknown Regions, the equivalent of hundreds of Galactic Sectors (Ie. Thousands Systems). Even billions of troops maybe to low. However, they could easily recruit the numbers need using a mere fraction of 1% of the population.

AOTC mentions it takes about ten years to grow a clone to maturity and train them. The Kamionans (spelling?) have a million-odd units ready for the battle on Geonosis. Have we heard of other cloning facilities producing clones for the soon to be Empire? Surely more must exist in such a vast galaxy, but Darth Wong has a good point in AOTC analysis: It takes years to make a combat ready clone. It takes months to make a combat ready draftee. The draftee won't be as good as a clone in combat, perhaps, but there will be many many more of them ready in a much shorter time...

In the Trawn trilogy it is stated that late in the Clone Wars, clones could be produced in a years time using Flash learning techniques, with no danger of clone madness. Now the losses in the late stages of the war must have been enormous, for them to need to produce clones in a few months.

The Imperial Army really doesn't stand out in my memory as seeing any real action. The movies have little to show, those who are not in stormie armor with blasters in the service of the Empire appear to be military police or technicians or officers of some kind. And the books? As far as actual infantry combat scenes, the only kinds that ring a bell for me are during the Vong invasion, and that's for the New Republic...

All of the non-naval officers seen in the OT, are Imperial Army Officers.
The AT-AT crews are probably Army too.

The real question is, does the Imperial Army allow families for it's non-Jango boys?

They almost certainly do, there no reason to prohibit them, and it would make recruitment more difficult. The need to propagate is instictual to all life, why cause moral problems when they don't need to.

Spartan · Post by **Spartan** » 2002-10-20 01:28pm

Vympel wrote:

They already have Jango's source material.

In both the film and the novelization it is states that the source material degrades after a certain number of generation. Which is why Jango had to stay on Kamino, so that they had a constant supply of raw material. After his death they could make a few more batches; but ultimately they would need to seek an alternate source.

Post by **Vympel** » 2002-10-20 01:34pm

Ah. Boba Fett then

Post by **Mr Bean** » 2002-10-20 02:32pm

Ah. Boba Fett then

If you can't use the Clones as a template and Bobba's a clone then what does that mean?

Spartan · Post by **Spartan** » 2002-10-20 02:38pm

Vympel wrote:

Ah. Boba Fett then

I think it very unlikely that Boba would be so stupid as to go back Kamino. That's the first place the Jedi and Republic would look for him.

Spartan · Post by **Spartan** » 2002-10-20 02:40pm

Oh, and I fogot Boba wouldn't work anyway; Because they should have several thousand first generation clones, but the still needed the original source.

Post by **NecronLord** » 2002-10-20 03:06pm

Mr Bean wrote:
Ah. Boba Fett then
If you can't use the Clones as a template and Boba's a clone then what does that mean?

It depends how they make the clones.

If they use a small tissue sample from Jango.

Then they have to take this. Replicate the DNA IIRC this can be done without growing cells around the Genes. put it into an ovum/substitue. Then take each cell and implant it in a Cylinder. The problem with this is, once you exceed the first few hundred thousand you need to begin taking samples from existing clones. As such you begin to get genetic drift, i.e. the minor variances that occur as each clone is created are passed on to his clones and as such the drift increases every few million clones. As such it is useful to have the original scource on-hand on principle. However, there are numerous ways around this. You could have endless copies of Jango by simply scanning his DNA into a computer (HGP style) and replicating that for each new clone. If the republics computer tech is not advanced enough for this/ they simply didn't bother then they could always retrive Jango's body and put it on ice. (though this would garuntee an early death when Boba comes after you eventually) Or they could get a new progenitor (count dooku?

). A danger of this is it would be {relativly} easy to produce an infection to kill them all, hence the armour, you could introduce it into their feild rations of course)

Post by **NecronLord** » 2002-10-20 03:12pm

Spartan wrote:Vympel wrote:
Ah. Boba Fett then
I think it very unlikely that Boba would be so stupid as to go back Kamino. That's the first place the Jedi and Republic would look for him.

You could use boba the chances of him being anything but a perfect copy of Jango are extremely low (especially as Jango would insist on a peerfect copy, on pain of strangulation, quite a threat to a kaminoan

)

Boba would be a 0 Generation clone and as such absoloutely the same as Jango [genetically]. As for him not going back to kamino? Why not the jedi are not his enemies, He may be fairly keen to drop a seismic charge on Mace though. More likely he would be the progenitor of the stormies and not republic clones {loyalty to Palpy, not the Republic} lets face it a Stormie cs Clonetrooper battle would be quite cool, particularly if the stormies are dressed up as Clonetroopers

2000AD · Post by **2000AD** » 2002-10-20 04:02pm

IIRC in X-Wing Rogue Squadron (the book) an imperial commander uses a Stormie platoon instead of a probe droid because probe droids are more expensive. According to him "there must be a factory that stamps them (stormies) out somewhere"

Alyeska · Post by **Alyeska** » 2002-10-20 04:16pm

2000AD wrote:IIRC in X-Wing Rogue Squadron (the book) an imperial commander uses a Stormie platoon instead of a probe droid because probe droids are more expensive. According to him "there must be a factory that stamps them (stormies) out somewhere"

Yet by the Thrawn Triology, Stormies are considered very valuable resources and hard to come by

2000AD · Post by **2000AD** » 2002-10-20 04:23pm

Alyeska wrote:
2000AD wrote:IIRC in X-Wing Rogue Squadron (the book) an imperial commander uses a Stormie platoon instead of a probe droid because probe droids are more expensive. According to him "there must be a factory that stamps them (stormies) out somewhere"
Yet by the Thrawn Triology, Stormies are considered very valuable resources and hard to come by

hmmmmm.... a perplexing mystery

Post by **Mr Bean** » 2002-10-20 05:49pm

Simple reason, The cloneing facilites where destroyed and only the few rare ones for the Emperor and Thrawn mananaged to survive all the chaos in the weeks after ROTJ

Alyeska · Post by **Alyeska** » 2002-10-20 06:32pm

Mr Bean wrote:Simple reason, The cloneing facilites where destroyed and only the few rare ones for the Emperor and Thrawn mananaged to survive all the chaos in the weeks after ROTJ

That would make sense. Given that clones can be made relatively fast I would hazzard a guess that the number of cloned Stormtroopers took several years to severly drain their numbers. The references in the X-Wing novels are close enough to ROTJ that their numbers would still be high. But by the time of Thrawn, their numbers had dwindled and all they had left were the recruited Storm Troopers, that is untill Thrawn cloned whole new batches.

Typhonis 1 · Post by **Typhonis 1** » 2002-10-20 09:13pm

Here is an interesting question sicne therer aging is accelerated to allow faster growth time wouldnt that mean they would aslo become older sooner IE there life span is dramatically reduced because of the force growing?>

Raptor 597 · Post by **Raptor 597** » 2002-10-20 09:20pm

Typhonis 1 wrote:Here is an interesting question sicne therer aging is accelerated to allow faster growth time wouldnt that mean they would aslo become older sooner IE there life span is dramatically reduced because of the force growing?>

Yes, you see thats my whole point for Stormtroopers not being clones. The faster you get them the faster they die. Now riddle me this if Pellaeon has 'clones' from the ROTJ and directly post era, yet they are alive, how can be clones if they were manufactuorered and combat ready so quickly. o it's quality vs. quantity unless they did both they're inafstructure would fail. I say it's a mix of both clones and volunteers.