Boating help/advice needed nautically

[Shroom Man 777]

Mang. God. Jesus. Fuck.

Anyway. I need help. My dad, in his infinite wisdom, purchased a tugboat in Hong Kong for I don't know how many thousand dollars. Now, to bring the tugboat to the Philippines, he wants to recruit a crew but he wants to save money (oh god). Anyway, my dad has no experience at all with nautical stuff except for scuba diving. Now he wants me to research on "what we need to prepare the boat" so that we can "prepare the boat", so when he hires the crew to bring the boat to the Philippines (by sailing it from Hong Kong to Subic Pubic Bay) it can go swimmingly. Then we can something-something and hocus-pocus and we can sell the boat in the Philippines to some sucker enterprising customer.

So, yeah. Does anyone know where I can get reliable resources on what I would need to prepare if I was preparing a (tug)boat to sail across the sea? Does anyone here have any maritime experience and advice? Because, shit, the only thing vaguely useful thing I know is CPR and the only vaguely useful thing dad knows is scuba diving. So we're about to hire some men to bring our boat to the Philippines and I guess we should know a thing or two about boating and shit before we send these guys to their deaths.

Thanks guys.

Mang.

[PeZook]

Jesus christ dude you are going to die if you try that yourselves.

Don't fucking try to sail the tug by yourselves! Just hire a skipper and he can tell you what's needed.

AGAIN.

DON'T FUCKING TRY IT BY YOURSELVES

If you had any experience and training it would be another thing, but...just don't. Please.

[Zaune]

There's bound to be a number of job brokers for seamen in Hong Kong. I'd go to one of them and ask them to recommend some personnel qualified to captain the ship, interview the candidates and let the one you pick handle the recruitment of any additional crew.

[Shroom Man 777]

We already have a crew lined up (I think). But I think he wants me to research nautical knowhow for him so, before we let the men we hire set sail, we can already prepare the boat and do maintenance and shit.

[Shroom Man 777]

Here are some pictures of the boat. Hong Kong police tugboat.

[Dartzap]

Ruddy hell that things tiddly. Does it even have the fuel capacity to cross the South China Sea?

[Aaron]

Jesus man, I wouldn't be surprised if you need to put it on an actual ship to get it to you.

[Zaune]

We already have a crew lined up (I think). But I think he wants me to research nautical knowhow for him so, before we let the men we hire set sail, we can already prepare the boat and do maintenance and shit.

This crew does include somebody with a master's ticket, right? Your dad's not just hired a bunch of deckhands and one guy who claims to be an engineer because he repairs his own moped?

[PeZook]

Dude, you're not going to learn enough from the interwebs to do maintenance on a tugboat in preparation to a journey on the open sea

If you have a crew (a proper crew, as Zaune pointed out),have the skipper-to-be inspect the boat. If he knows anything, he should be able to tell you what needs to be worked on and what he needs to make the trip and what needs to be checked further by a qualified technical specialist.

Also, I'm not sure but there might be people doing safety inspections in most ports, too. You could phone up the administration and ask if you can pay one to inspect the boat.

[Sarevok]

Do you have friends who went to merchant marine academy ? They seem to be the right sort of persons to ask for expert advice and help on this. Even if you can't I am pretty sure someone as well connected as your dad can find the right persons who works in the shipping industry. Philippines supplies probably half the sailors on commercial vessels world wide. There is no shortage of experienced merchant mariners in your country if you know where to talk.

[Thanas]

I put the question to my brother who is a nautical officer in training (but who spent three years at sea) and he basically said that your father is an idiot, that this was going to get you killed if you tried it yourselves and that he would highly discourage you from having any part in this. Though he did not put it so kindly.

[J]

We already have a crew lined up (I think). But I think he wants me to research nautical knowhow for him so, before we let the men we hire set sail, we can already prepare the boat and do maintenance and shit.

You can't be serious. You may as well teach yourself how to perform kidney transplants from the internet. And then transplant your own kidney.

[PeZook]

It should be okay if they actually pay competent people to prepare and sail the boat. I really hope your father doesn't want to try and replace all those missing instruments himself only to set some random poor sods on a crossing of the south china sea...

[Shroom Man 777]

He's working with competent and experienced people, and I think he's going to let them do the vast majority of the actual maintenance shit, but he wants me to brief him on the How To's of nautical whatevering. Because he knows jack shit about it.

I don't have any intention of riding that dinghy in open seas. And I know dad is also comfortable with just sitting on dry land and letting other people to drown, get eaten by sharks, get boarded by pirates bring the boat here.

Yes. I know mangs, it looks bad and, seriously, yeah. I think everyone in the household has told him what you guys have told me.

Oh man, just thinking about it. Shroom's Sea Sojourn. Man, it's patently absurd.

[J]

He's working with competent and experienced people, and I think he's going to let them do the vast majority of the actual maintenance shit, but he wants me to brief him on the How To's of nautical whatevering. Because he knows jack shit about it.

Everything nautical your dad needs to know

Seriously. Leave the rest to the experts.

[Shroom Man 777]

Yeah. But before we get the crew to do their stuff, we just need the basics on what to do with a boat, since we'd like to tidy it up a little bit so when the crew gets there, the minor things have already been handled. Like, the most basics of basics. Check if the med kit is stocked up? Check if the plumbing still works? Uh... stock up the galley. You know, basic preparations the landlubbers can do.

The serious business and real maintenance will be for those burly seamen dad hires. We just don't want them to be spending their time stocking up the galley or fixing, say, the cabin lighting if we can help and do it ourselves, we don't want to waste their time (which we're paying for).

[Simon_Jester]

He's working with competent and experienced people, and I think he's going to let them do the vast majority of the actual maintenance shit, but he wants me to brief him on the How To's of nautical whatevering. Because he knows jack shit about it.

Shroomy, I'm pretty sure there's nothing to brief him on; he (and you) don't know what the holes in your knowledge are. I wouldn't either.

Stocking the galley, since that's just grocery shopping, maybe you could do- but honestly, if you try to do anything much more complicated than that, you're probably just going to fuck it up and wind up having to pay the aforementioned seamen to first rip out all the crap you did, then put it back together correctly.

It would be like, I dunno, me trying to prepare my house so that Mr. Coffee could come in and do a flooring job. Either I'm doing specifically what the contractor says, or I'm gonna fuck it up and wind up paying more.

[Broomstick]

Good god, Shroom... I feel bad for you.

I actually DO know a licensed tugboat captain. However, he is only licensed for the Great Lakes. While I'm sure his knowledge of ice-breaking to permit barges to navigate fresh water lakes and canals in winter may be fascinating I seriously doubt it applies to conditions in the South China Sea or wherever. That's one issue right there - it's not just enough to hire a skipper, it has to be a skipper licensed for the waters you'll be dealing with and with knowledge to handle the conditions there.

Pardon me, but your father is a fucking idiot. Or what Thanas says.

I mean, hell, there's just nowhere to start with this. Your best best I'd say would be to hire a competent and trustworthy captain to do ALL OF THIS for you. Down to stocking the galley and buying the toilet paper along with navigating, picking/approving a crew, and everything else. You just don't know what you're ignorant of here (though thank god you realize your ignorance).

And really, there is nothing wrong with hiring a captain to do all this for you - my captain friend I mentioned? He does a nice sideline in moving boats for people. He's frequently hired by dumbshits with more money than sense, along with people who are aware of their ignorance, to safely move a boat from Port A to Port B. And he does everything - inspect the boat (I may even get work this spring helping him clean/maintain boats for those things that can be done by any idiot who can follow directions and don't require licensing), get any repairs needed done, pick a crew, stock the boat, and sail it. The trick is hiring someone trustworthy and competent.

I'd ask him if he'd be willing to help you, but a couple days ago a lawyer handed him a check for a quarter million dollars and booked a hotel room for him near a major boat show with orders to pick out a new vessel for said lawyer. So he's gone at the moment. Like I said, people hire skippers to do these things for them, it's a viable option if done right.

Really, your dad SHOULD have hired someone like that before he actually bought the boat. I mean, what condition is it in? Is it worth the money paid? Well, that's the past now, but really, MY suggestion (and honestly, I know about as much as you do about these matters) is for your father to hire someone with a license and good reputation to take care of moving the damn boat.

I hope this turns out well, I really do. Good luck.

It would be like, I dunno, me trying to prepare my house so that Mr. Coffee could come in and do a flooring job. Either I'm doing specifically what the contractor says, or I'm gonna fuck it up and wind up paying more.

^ This.

You know, I've done flooring, but if I hired Mr. Coffee to do my floor I'd still let him run the show and take my "orders" from him. Why? Because he's a competent professional, and as boss it's his job to run the show. I'd ask him what I needed to do beforehand, if anything, show him where the bathroom is, offer beverages particularly on hot days, then get the hell out of his way and let him and his crew do their job.

And that's what your dad should do - hire a professional, and let him do the job.

[Marcus Aurelius]

I think you are all missing the point here. Obviously Shroom's dad is one of those people who are always trying to find a new angle to make some money. He wants to sell the boat, not to have it as a hobby. So he wants to do as much as possible by himself so that there would be more profit. If he hires a competent skipper to handle the whole show, it's quite possible that there will be no profit from this operation, because of what he or she charges from doing all that work.

So yes, it might be a bad business idea, but whether anyone can convince him about that is another matter. Plus he already payed for the boat (I presume), so at the very least he will try to get even somehow. If that requires cutting some corners...

[The Duchess of Zeon]

I'd suggest getting a marine surveying company to look into installing a false bow to help with heavy seas. When moving harbour craft and shallow water craft on the open ocean, waves on the deck in even minor seas is possible and can carry away a lot of important equipment. So, building up a false forecastle/bow to keep water off the deck will be very important. It can be done with a few welded pieces of metal and wood at the most minimalistic but it will need to be planned and done by a competent yard in Hong Kong. They can probably also fit the extra fuel tanks I suspect will be required for any safety margin.

I refuse to comment on the navigational or crewing issues for liability reasons and because I haven't gone yachting in a while and though that tugboat is frankly smaller than some yachts I've crewed on, it is not remotely an open ocean craft.

[The Duchess of Zeon]

Addendum: If you are thinking about bringing this craft across the South China Sea in winter or the monsoon without paying for the modifications required for the passage, do yourself a favour and scuttle it off Zhoudao island for the insurance money, you have a better chance of getting away with that. You will need to build up an extensive false bow and install extra tankage to make the passage possible, period. You might do it in summer safely but honestly that superstructure scares the fuck out of me in stability terms in any kind of real sea, I'd feel safer in an unpowered junk. If you refuse to find some self-loading freighter to take it as deck cargo (it's small enough) from Hong Kong to the Philippines, then for the sake of all that's holy get a good shipyard to install a false bow and extra tankage. That wasn't a suggestion, that was a requirement from just looking at the craft. Oh, you can have some schmucks take it to sea without one, but you can get them killed and lose your investment, too.

[Dave]

So, as I read Shroom's posts here, I get the impression there are really two parts to what his father is asking for:
(1) A list of things the father should do to prep and use the boat
(2) A crash course in nautical lingo and concepts, a sort of general education on boats and boating and specifically tugboats, so that he doesn't look like a dunce when he asks questions and knows enough to sell the boat or its services to someone else.

Item (1) is, as everyone else has said, something that should absolutely be left up to a skilled professional, etc and the father should really have no part in this other than paying said professional and getting status reports.

Item (2), on the other hand, is somewhat easier to deal with -- it only requires finding the right books or people.
So, things I would look for might be encyclopedia articles on boats / tugboats, some non-fiction books on boats / tugboats (maybe even some children's books if they help explain basic concepts -- especially the cutaway-style drawings.) submarine cutaway for example purposes | steam tug model cutaway | diagram of tugboat exterior parts
Other useful things might include looking over the specs for this tugboats and tugboats in the same class (I doubt all tugboats are made alike, no?), looking over a few overview technical drawings (blueprints, etc.), reading up on the type of ship these tugboats are designed to move etc.

One important point might be to try to make your father understand that reading all this stuff does NOT qualify him to skipper a tugboat -- it only helps him avoid asking stupid questions like "This motor says it's rated for 300 HP -- so that's the main engine, right?"

[Simon_Jester]

I think you are all missing the point here. Obviously Shroom's dad is one of those people who are always trying to find a new angle to make some money. He wants to sell the boat, not to have it as a hobby. So he wants to do as much as possible by himself so that there would be more profit. If he hires a competent skipper to handle the whole show, it's quite possible that there will be no profit from this operation, because of what he or she charges from doing all that work.

So yes, it might be a bad business idea, but whether anyone can convince him about that is another matter. Plus he already payed for the boat (I presume), so at the very least he will try to get even somehow. If that requires cutting some corners...

The problem is that if something goes badly wrong, and the boat sinks in a storm or gets damaged during transit... well then, Shroomfather is in serious trouble. He loses all the money, he gets nothing, and he just might be liable for some kind of legal punishment if he's somehow held responsible for any deaths, injuries, or losses incurred because of the sinking.

I mean, imagine Shroomfather wanted to open a mine. Would he just hire some guys to dig a hole in the ground at random? No. He would hire professional geologists and mine engineers to survey the area, identify how best to get at the valuable mineral deposits, and how to get them to the surface safely while avoiding expensive mining accidents.

If he didn't do these things, he might save some cash up front, but it would be a stupid decision because something would go wrong and he'd lose everything.

This is the same way- it's a complicated job, one that involves technical skills Shroomfather does not know and can not learn in the time available. He needs someone with the skill and experience to know what needs to be done, and no amount of Internet research could tell him that.

[Bottlestein]

I think you'll be alright Shroom:

Boats have to pass inspection before the port authority will give them berthing - even if you hire licensed crew. The inspectors will probably fail the boat, and it'll have to be shipped on a larger vessel.

What margin is your dad expecting? (Depending on how you can manage the shipping - it may be cheaper than hiring a full crew.)

[ShadowDragon8685]

This situation sounds like the plot set-up for a heartwarming, touching father-son bonding movie set against a nautical challenges and tribulations backdrop. If your father tries this without hiring someone who knows what the fuck he's doing, people are going to drown and die.

I think that's a point that can't be made more clear. Where there's a will and resources there's a way; you can make an automobile seaworthy if you're willing to put enough time and money into it, though it may not much resemble an auto when you're through. It seems to me that it would probably be cheaper to send this tug to Subic Bay as cargo than to take all the necessary preparations to sail it. There are harbor tugs and oceangoing tugs, and this is not an oceangoing tug, yet your father wants it to make a voyage that would take an oceangoing tug. That can be done if money's no object, but clearly money is an object.

For the sake of everyone not familiar with the area, this is the proposed voyage. In a direct line, that's just over 1,000 kilometers, most of that being deep, deep water. (I had to look it up, too.)

One thing that comes to mind is that this is a police harbor tug. It was never meant to be staffed by a full crew; even at times when it might need to be in operation 24/7, she could always pull into the police depot and take on fresh crew. So I imagine the galley and sleeping quarters are going to range from "downright minimal" to "outright nonexistent." I won't even try to suggest how to fix that, you're going to need to talk to a professional. The sailors and enthusiasts have more and better commentary about false bows and freeboard and false forecastles and all that as well. But again, you're going to need to talk to a professional.

The one piece of nautical trivia I can see I have that hasn't been mentioned yet is that the boat in question does not have a Clear View Screen. You are going to need one. Your father's best bet is to read up, get some coaching from some people who half-way know what they're talking about, then talk to a professional like he's not a complete idiot but someone who knows very little.

The only other thing I can think of (besides scuttling this whole terrifying plan and shipping this tug as cargo on a seaworthy vessel) is looking into the feasibility and legality of sailing it northeast to Taiwan and island-hopping down the Luzon Ridge to the north coast of the Philippines and then coastal sailing from there to Subic Bay. Again, that's something that might be worth asking your professional, but as that would (even if it were possible/legal) nearly double the voyage's distance, I imagine your father would veto it on expense grounds.