Self experiment with nano-antioxidant

[cosmicalstorm]

About a year ago I sat down with the internet one evening. Having thrown out my last multivitamins after reading about the cancer+multivitamin studies I was disappointed by the lack of any meaningful dietary supplementation that seems to work.
Reading the Spindler-studies on rats given various cocktails of this and that and seeing that once inadvertent caloric restriction was controlled for nothing actually worked. The rats given the cocktails actually lived shorter, not longer.

So in my googling I came across the issue of Fullerene[60]. Go to wiki for a background on this atom. I started browsing pubmed and various forums and became more and more obsessed with this little soccer-ball-carbon-atom.

Mixed with oil it seems to concentrate into the mitochondrial membranes and act as a radical sponge. It's nothing like classical antioxidants that mostly end up in the cytoplasma and disturb the normal cellular ROS machinery. Some say it has an effect 100, maybe 1000 times stronger than classical antioxidants like Vit C. And as I said, it localizes in the mito-compartment where most of the ROS is produced.

A quick googling will say fullerenes are toxic, which they seem to be in their pristine form. But not in their molecularized form. There are several of those, polyhydroxylated, carboxylated, FWS60 and so on.

I'm betting on Lipofullerenes. Although some applications have been filed, it seems they can not be patented, so the medical industry won't care too much.

Here are a few studies, more can be found in their citation-list.

The prolongation of the lifespan of rats by repeated oral administration of [60]
fullerene
http://extremelongevity.net/wp-content/ ... lerene.pdf

[60]Fullerene is a Powerful Antioxidant in Vivo with No Acute or Subacute Toxicity
http://pubs.acs.org/doi/abs/10.1021/nl051866b

The polyhydroxylated fullerene derivative C60(OH)24 protects mice from ionizing-radiation-induced immune and mitochondrial dysfunction
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/ar ... 8X0900475X

So for a few months I have been eating about 5ml of olive oil mixed with C60 at a concentration of 0.8mg/ml every day.
It's a biological wager of mine. I have not felt any effect that could be clearly distinguished from placebo. But I have been feeling good all the time.
If I'm right about this it means that I have slowed down the corruption of my cells through lipid peroxidation, the ever ongoing process of russian roulette taking place around my mitochondrial DNA should be slowed down quite dramatically as they are cleared of superoxide anions and other nasty free radicals.

But in the end this is a bet. I will come back here periodically to necro this thread to update on my own experience of this and the science behind it.

[Darth Tanner]

[advice] Take off your tin foil hat, bin your anti cell corruption pills, eat a balanced diet that is heavy on fruit and veg and live free and happy. [/advice]

[Broomstick]

About a year ago I sat down with the internet one evening. Having thrown out my last multivitamins after reading about the cancer+multivitamin studies I was disappointed by the lack of any meaningful dietary supplementation that seems to work.

Well, you know, you could try eating a healthy diet rather than trying to supplement an inadequate one. Lots of vegetables, fruit, whole grains, use animal protein more as a condiment/occasional thing rather than a constant presence. Moderation in all things.

[Serafina]

Go to wiki for a background on this atom.

...it's a molecule. Shows how well you read up on it.

At least it does seem to be nontoxic, so you're not doing yourself any harm.

[cosmicalstorm]

Yes sorry about that. I wrote it in a hurry.

[Zaune]

Well, good luck, I guess.

[Ziggy Stardust]

Having thrown out my last multivitamins after reading about the cancer+multivitamin studies I was disappointed by the lack of any meaningful dietary supplementation that seems to work.

There is no strong evidence that multivitamin use is associated with cancer risk, in either a positive or a negative manner. The scientific evidence is extraordinarily mixed and highly debated. Some studies report strong positive effects, others report strong negative effects, but the vast majority simply find no significant health effect whatsoever. The reason many advise against taking them isn't because they are expressly unhealthy, but there doesn't appear to be any benefit to taking them whatsoever, so might as well avoid any potential remote complications. So yeah, there's no reason for you to be taking multivitamins, but there's also no reason for you to be worried about getting cancer from them.

As for dietary supplementation in general, why not just eat a nutritious, balanced diet? That's the 100% guaranteed, tried and true way of staying healthy. Fresh fruits and vegetables, some source of protein, some source of healthy fats and oils, and there's very little else you need. There are situations where you may need to or want to use supplements, but they are mostly very specific: certain food allergies or health issues that leave you with some form of nutritional deficit, economic or other practical considerations that limit your food options, or if you are trying to build muscle and need extra protein.

There's no magical supplement you can take that will make you healthy regardless of what you eat.

<snip>

Mixed with oil it seems to concentrate into the mitochondrial membranes and act as a radical sponge. It's nothing like classical antioxidants that mostly end up in the cytoplasma and disturb the normal cellular ROS machinery. Some say it has an effect 100, maybe 1000 times stronger than classical antioxidants like Vit C. And as I said, it localizes in the mito-compartment where most of the ROS is produced.

First of all, I think it's really odd that you start by talking about how you are against multivitamins, but then immediately jump on antioxidants as if they will be the magic solution the multivitamins weren't. Even though antioxidants (specifically Vitamins A and E, plus beta-carotene) are usually some of the primary ingredients of those multivitamins in the first place. All of the stuff I said about multivitamins in the previous paragraphs? All of that applies equally to antioxidants.

<snip>

If I'm right about this it means that I have slowed down the corruption of my cells through lipid peroxidation, the ever ongoing process of russian roulette taking place around my mitochondrial DNA should be slowed down quite dramatically as they are cleared of superoxide anions and other nasty free radicals.

Free radicals are integral components of a wide variety of biological processes. It is true that they have some potentially serious deleterious effects - however, these effects tend to occur when cells aren't functioning properly, due to either genetic or environmental damage. Free radicals are not the cause, they are the mechanism. Free radicals are the physiological trigger that can lead to lung cancer of cirrhosis of the liver, but it was the exposure to smoke and alcohol that created the biological environment that allowed this to happen. When your cells are healthy and functioning, they control the free radicals themselves. The best way to keep your cells healthy is to keep yourself healthy, which is a function of overall diet and lifestyle, and not something that can be found in a pill, regardless of the fancy name on the label.

[cosmicalstorm]

I keep myself healthy through traditional means like diet and exersize but I felt like doing some experimentation.
Anyway antioxidants that are locked onto the mitochondrial membranes are a different story than the normal antioxidants likr B, C etc.
Oversupplementation with normal antioxidants is damaging, it corrupts the effects of exercise and even leads to increased cancer risk.

Supp with mito-locked antioxidants seems to be a whole different story.

Is Tumor Metastasis Prevention On The Horizon?
http://www.science20.com/science_20/is_ ... zon-142136

Mitochondria-targeted antioxidant (MitoQ) ameliorates age-related arterial endothelial dysfunction in mice
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24665093



Anyway, I'm not pushing this or on someone. I'll drop in habitually and update this thread. In a couple of years we may learn that Fullerenes and other mito-locked stuff is a god-send. Or it kills you somehow. Time will tell. This is my little biological bet.

[Simon_Jester]

Are you actually a biochemist or anything? What's your background, scientifically and academically?

[cosmicalstorm]

I lack those qualifications completely, I went to a health-related Uni program, but it does not at all qualify me to make such decisions. It did teach me to read scientific papers to some extent though.

I have read most of the papers on fullerenes and their role in (mostly animal) health, that is all.

[Simon_Jester]

I am concerned that you may have missed important information, or be misinterpreting what you read, then.

I mean, I can teach someone to read a plasma physics paper, but if they don't know what the terms actually mean it does them little good.

Consider the sentence "In the test chamber, when we increased the potential above five thousand volts, we observed magnetic reconnection."

The layman might go "huh, what's magnetic reconnection?" They go to Wikipedia for a few minutes, they look up a Java applet or two, they decide it's cool but weird and confusing, and they move on.

So basically the lay reader reads that sentence as:

"At a potential above five thousand volts, this vaguely cool thing that reminds me of some neat pictures of the solar wind happens, which means... uh, whatever. Moving on!"

But if you have a full understanding of what magnetic reconnection is and does, and enough experience to understand that in the context of the article, you might read that as:

"Above five thousand volts, particles squirt all over the place and weird chaotic stuff happens that's interesting... but this happening blows away the effect we were trying to observe. So if you try to duplicate our results germane to the topic of our abstract, don't even bother going above five thousand volts."
________________________________

Clearly, the lay reader has missed an important fact that a real plasma physicist (who knows what magnetic reconnection is and what it means) would not miss. If the lay reader proceeds to try and do random plasma experiments in their backyard... they may not get the result they expected.

Basically, it can be tricky to understand scientific papers while lacking all the background knowledge and access to the full body of relevant literature that would be enjoyed by the paper's target audience. It's laudable, but I would NOT bet my health on it.

[cosmicalstorm]

I am concerned that you may have missed important information, or be misinterpreting what you read, then.

I mean, I can teach someone to read a plasma physics paper, but if they don't know what the terms actually mean it does them little good.

Consider the sentence "In the test chamber, when we increased the potential above five thousand volts, we observed magnetic reconnection."

The layman might go "huh, what's magnetic reconnection?" They go to Wikipedia for a few minutes, they look up a Java applet or two, they decide it's cool but weird and confusing, and they move on.

So basically the lay reader reads that sentence as:

"At a potential above five thousand volts, this vaguely cool thing that reminds me of some neat pictures of the solar wind happens, which means... uh, whatever. Moving on!"

But if you have a full understanding of what magnetic reconnection is and does, and enough experience to understand that in the context of the article, you might read that as:

"Above five thousand volts, particles squirt all over the place and weird chaotic stuff happens that's interesting... but this happening blows away the effect we were trying to observe. So if you try to duplicate our results germane to the topic of our abstract, don't even bother going above five thousand volts."
________________________________

Clearly, the lay reader has missed an important fact that a real plasma physicist (who knows what magnetic reconnection is and what it means) would not miss. If the lay reader proceeds to try and do random plasma experiments in their backyard... they may not get the result they expected.

Basically, it can be tricky to understand scientific papers while lacking all the background knowledge and access to the full body of relevant literature that would be enjoyed by the paper's target audience. It's laudable, but I would NOT bet my health on it.

The possibility that there is some known but hidden danger seems low probability to me. I'm not the only one doing this, others have scoured the fullerene-literature and not found anything nasty for molecularized products aside from experiments using toxic solvents like THF or experiments with huge fullerene clusters.
I'm a lot more concerned by unknown dangers. There is some speculation that an effective Mito-Antioxidant would increase the production of advanced glycaemic endproducts. They could protect cancer-cellls somehow but all experimentation so far seems to go against that.

Here is an example of another designer-antioxidant called PEG-HCC

PEG-HCC Nanoparticle Can Catalyze Neutralization of Damaging Reactive Oxygen Species Molecules

Published on February 10, 2015 at 3:10 AM

Injectable nanoparticles that could protect an injured person from further damage due to oxidative stress have proven to be astoundingly effective in tests to study their mechanism.

Scientists at Rice University, Baylor College of Medicine and the University of Texas Health Science Center at Houston (UTHealth) Medical School designed methods to validate their 2012 discovery that combined polyethylene glycol-hydrophilic carbon clusters — known as PEG-HCCs — could quickly stem the process of overoxidation that can cause damage in the minutes and hours after an injury.

The tests revealed a single nanoparticle can quickly catalyze the neutralization of thousands of damaging reactive oxygen species molecules that are overexpressed by the body’s cells in response to an injury and turn the molecules into oxygen. These reactive species can damage cells and cause mutations, but PEG-HCCs appear to have an enormous capacity to turn them into less-reactive substances.

The researchers hope an injection of PEG-HCCs as soon as possible after an injury, such as traumatic brain injury or stroke, can mitigate further brain damage by restoring normal oxygen levels to the brain’s sensitive circulatory system.

The results were reported today in the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences.

“Effectively, they bring the level of reactive oxygen species back to normal almost instantly,” said Rice chemist James Tour. “This could be a useful tool for emergency responders who need to quickly stabilize an accident or heart attack victim or to treat soldiers in the field of battle.” Tour led the new study with neurologist Thomas Kent of Baylor College of Medicine and biochemist Ah-Lim Tsai of UTHealth.

PEG-HCCs are about 3 nanometers wide and 30 to 40 nanometers long and contain from 2,000 to 5,000 carbon atoms. In tests, an individual PEG-HCC nanoparticle can catalyze the conversion of 20,000 to a million reactive oxygen species molecules per second into molecular oxygen, which damaged tissues need, and hydrogen peroxide while quenching reactive intermediates.

Tour and Kent led the earlier research that determined an infusion of nontoxic PEG-HCCs may quickly stabilize blood flow in the brain and protect against reactive oxygen species molecules overexpressed by cells during a medical trauma, especially when accompanied by massive blood loss.

Their research targeted traumatic brain injuries, after which cells release an excessive amount of the reactive oxygen species known as a superoxide into the blood. These toxic free radicals are molecules with one unpaired electron that the immune system uses to kill invading microorganisms. In small concentrations, they contribute to a cell’s normal energy regulation. Generally, they are kept in check by superoxide dismutase, an enzyme that neutralizes superoxides.

But even mild traumas can release enough superoxides to overwhelm the brain’s natural defenses. In turn, superoxides can form such other reactive oxygen species as peroxynitrite that cause further damage.

“The current research shows PEG-HCCs work catalytically, extremely rapidly and with an enormous capacity to neutralize thousands upon thousands of the deleterious molecules, particularly superoxide and hydroxyl radicals that destroy normal tissue when left unregulated,” Tour said.

“This will be important not only in traumatic brain injury and stroke treatment, but for many acute injuries of any organ or tissue and in medical procedures such as organ transplantation,” he said. “Anytime tissue is stressed and thereby oxygen-starved, superoxide can form to further attack the surrounding good tissue.”

The researchers used an electron paramagnetic resonance spectroscopy technique that gets direct structure and rate information for superoxide radicals by counting unpaired electrons in the presence or absence of PEG-HCC antioxidants. Another test with an oxygen-sensing electrode, peroxidase and a red dye confirmed the particles’ ability to catalyze superoxide conversion.

“In sharp contrast to the well-known superoxide dismutase, PEG-HCC is not a protein and does not have metal to serve the catalytic role,” Tsai said. “The efficient catalytic turnover could be due to its more ‘planar,’ highly conjugated carbon core.”

The tests showed the number of superoxides consumed far surpassed the number of possible PEG-HCC bonding sites. The researchers found the particles have no effect on important nitric oxides that keep blood vessels dilated and aid neurotransmission and cell protection, nor was the efficiency sensitive to pH changes.

“PEG-HCCs have enormous capacity to convert superoxide to oxygen and the ability to quench reactive intermediates while not affecting nitric oxide molecules that are beneficial in normal amounts,” Kent said. “So they hold a unique place in our potential armamentarium against a range of diseases that involve loss of oxygen and damaging levels of free radicals.”

The study also determined PEG-HCCs remain stable, as batches up to 3 months old performed as good as new.

Graduate student Errol Samuel and alumna Daniela Marcano, both of Rice, and Vladimir Berka, a senior research scientist at UTHealth, are lead authors of the study. Co-authors are Rice alumnus Austin Potter; alumnus Brittany Bitner and associate professor Robia Pautler of Baylor College of Medicine; instructor Gang Wu of UTHealth and Roderic Fabian of Baylor College of Medicine and the Michael E. DeBakey Veterans Affairs Medical Center

http://www.azonano.com/news.aspx?newsID=32046

[jwl]

Rather you than me, I suppose. I presume you are logging this somewhere other than SDN?

[Irbis]

The possibility that there is some known but hidden danger seems low probability to me. I'm not the only one doing this, others have scoured the fullerene-literature and not found anything nasty for molecularized products aside from experiments using toxic solvents like THF or experiments with huge fullerene clusters.

You know who also 'scoured' literature? Anti-vaxxers. For a given meaning of literature, that is.

I guess that's why Simon asked about background - it's not only important what others wrote on topic, it's also important to recognize when the person might have had very wrong ideas about what they wrote, or tried to apply term A to process B just because they sounded similar.

I am not accusing you. I just saw enough of similar hypes by snake oil salesmen, starting with vilcacora and "vitamin" B-17, to remain sceptical about supposed breakthroughs. Especially when I see huge red letter warning unanimously applied in such cases, namely:

I'm betting on Lipofullerenes. Although some applications have been filed, it seems they can not be patented, so the medical industry won't care too much.

Ah, the old 'big pharma can't patent', second only to 'doctors don't cure, they "heal" you with pills to the bottom of your wallet'. First, a number of best selling medicines are things you can't patent. Second, if the fullerene therapy was in any way effective, you can bet the rich would be all over it.

Frankly, you're asking wrong question. Let's assume fullerenes are really so magical and cure everything - but would 4 mg daily be enough to cause any change? How they are distributed to cells? How much of them each of tens of trillions of cells in your body gets? How long they last until body purges them? How would you recognize positive effect if they caused any? Or negative one? Do they cause negative chemical reactions or unintended effects?

Being positive factor in vacuum is all good and well, but nothing you linked deals with above issues, I am afraid. Though, well, at least your exercise isn't entirely pointless - olive oil (real one) is good for health, I hear, better than most fats you can find in processed foods, at least.

[Ziggy Stardust]

Though, well, at least your exercise isn't entirely pointless - olive oil (real one) is good for health, I hear, better than most fats you can find in processed foods, at least.

I believe many diets actually recommend taking a tablespoon of olive oil daily. When most people diet, they automatically think "eat less fat", even though that isn't actually an effective weight loss technique. There are different kinds of fat, some you need to stay away from and some you need. If you don't get enough fats, your body goes into "famine" mode and essentially slows your metabolism down to a crawl in order to build up your fat reserves. Olive oil contains a lot of really healthy fats that your body needs and you won't be getting if you are on a diet heavy with leafy greens and lean protein, for example.

[cosmicalstorm]

The possibility that there is some known but hidden danger seems low probability to me. I'm not the only one doing this, others have scoured the fullerene-literature and not found anything nasty for molecularized products aside from experiments using toxic solvents like THF or experiments with huge fullerene clusters.

You know who also 'scoured' literature? Anti-vaxxers. For a given meaning of literature, that is.

I guess that's why Simon asked about background - it's not only important what others wrote on topic, it's also important to recognize when the person might have had very wrong ideas about what they wrote, or tried to apply term A to process B just because they sounded similar.

I am not accusing you. I just saw enough of similar hypes by snake oil salesmen, starting with vilcacora and "vitamin" B-17, to remain sceptical about supposed breakthroughs. Especially when I see huge red letter warning unanimously applied in such cases, namely:

I'm betting on Lipofullerenes. Although some applications have been filed, it seems they can not be patented, so the medical industry won't care too much.

Ah, the old 'big pharma can't patent', second only to 'doctors don't cure, they "heal" you with pills to the bottom of your wallet'. First, a number of best selling medicines are things you can't patent. Second, if the fullerene therapy was in any way effective, you can bet the rich would be all over it.

Frankly, you're asking wrong question. Let's assume fullerenes are really so magical and cure everything - but would 4 mg daily be enough to cause any change? How they are distributed to cells? How much of them each of tens of trillions of cells in your body gets? How long they last until body purges them? How would you recognize positive effect if they caused any? Or negative one? Do they cause negative chemical reactions or unintended effects?

Being positive factor in vacuum is all good and well, but nothing you linked deals with above issues, I am afraid. Though, well, at least your exercise isn't entirely pointless - olive oil (real one) is good for health, I hear, better than most fats you can find in processed foods, at least.

I'm a little bit disillusioned by "big pharma" and FDA. The FDA do not recognize aging as a disease, there is a capitalistic drive to find a single patentable substance.
There exists a definitive lack of ambition with regards to disease "lets spend 10 billion dollars investigating Reservatrol which might increase lifespan by 1 % for those who start it at young age" rather than "lets spend 10 billion dollars trying to find a way to clear senescent cells/AGE/lipofuscin".

The amount I'm ingesting is a tradeoff. Dose being poison and so on. There is a number of fullerene-studies which indicate that extremly small doses will do.
See work by Andrievsky.
http://www.researchgate.net/profile/G_A ... blications

I'm all for vaccines and I don't claim to be an oracle. I'm trying not to let motivated cognition drive me to making a mistake, that is a part of my posting here, to let level-headed people look at what I'm doing and say something about it.
There is some studies that cast doubt on all this, for example this seems to say that C60 can do the opposite:
I'm also aware of some animal trials with knockout mice that show a lifespan increase by selectively removing a significant portion of the endogenous antioxidant capacity via genetic engineering.
Science is always confusing as hell!

The mechanism involved with (1) energy and electron transfer by C60 in the aqueous phase during UV irradiation and (2) subsequent production of reactive oxygen species (ROS) such as singlet oxygen and superoxide radical anion was investigated. Electron paramagnetic resonance (EPR) study showed that C60 embedded in micelles of nonionic surfactant (Triton X 100) or anionic surfactant (sodium dodecylbenzenesulfonate) produced ROS, but aggregated C60 did not, consistent with our earlier findings made using indicator chemicals. Nanosecond and femtosecond laser flash photolysis showed that the aggregation of C60 significantly accelerates the decay of excited triplet state C60, which is a key intermediate for energy and electron transfer, thus blocking the pathway for ROS production. This finding suggests that C60 clusters will not contribute to oxidative damage or redox reactions in natural environment and biological systems in the same way molecular C60 in organic phase reportedly does. In contrast, C60 embedded in surfactant micelles produces ROS and the evidence is presented for the formation of C60 radical anion as an intermediate.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18522134

Though, well, at least your exercise isn't entirely pointless - olive oil (real one) is good for health, I hear, better than most fats you can find in processed foods, at least.

I believe many diets actually recommend taking a tablespoon of olive oil daily. When most people diet, they automatically think "eat less fat", even though that isn't actually an effective weight loss technique. There are different kinds of fat, some you need to stay away from and some you need. If you don't get enough fats, your body goes into "famine" mode and essentially slows your metabolism down to a crawl in order to build up your fat reserves. Olive oil contains a lot of really healthy fats that your body needs and you won't be getting if you are on a diet heavy with leafy greens and lean protein, for example.

The rat-study I referred to actually discovered that rats fed olive oil lived 20 % longer, 90 % longer once fullerenes were added, but that was a very small study. I already eat olive oil and 50-100g nuts every day.

[Raw Shark]

Though, well, at least your exercise isn't entirely pointless - olive oil (real one) is good for health, I hear, better than most fats you can find in processed foods, at least.

I believe many diets actually recommend taking a tablespoon of olive oil daily. When most people diet, they automatically think "eat less fat", even though that isn't actually an effective weight loss technique. There are different kinds of fat, some you need to stay away from and some you need. If you don't get enough fats, your body goes into "famine" mode and essentially slows your metabolism down to a crawl in order to build up your fat reserves. Olive oil contains a lot of really healthy fats that your body needs and you won't be getting if you are on a diet heavy with leafy greens and lean protein, for example.

It tastes better if you sautée the leafy greens and lean protein in the olive oil, rather than just downing it from a spoon...

[Simon_Jester]

The possibility that there is some known but hidden danger seems low probability to me. I'm not the only one doing this, others have scoured the fullerene-literature and not found anything nasty for molecularized products aside from experiments using toxic solvents like THF or experiments with huge fullerene clusters.

The question is, why are only amateurs doing this? The vast majority of things you could conceivably do to reduce your cancer risk, inspired by "scouring the literature," will either do nothing or actively cause harm. What makes fullerenes different?

Back up to Bayes' Theorem*. In Bayesian logic, a piece of evidence that appears to support a very improbable proposition must itself be very good evidence, in order to prove that proposition. For example, we have good reason to believe that unicorns don't exist; it would take very convincing evidence of the presence of unicorns to falsify that belief.

Now, there are a LOT of things that have been tried as cure-alls for cancer, and which have failed. Many of them had the enthusiastic support of various scientists. Even more had the enthusiastic support of a handful of cranks who got carried away.

The prior probability for "New wonder treatment cures/prevents cancer!" is actually pretty damn low. Out of the thousands of things we've tried, none are reliable cancer-preventers. Some help, on a percentage basis, all else being equal. We've certainly found lots of things that cause cancer. But aside from "eat a healthy diet and hope for the best," we've spent fifty years researching cancer exhaustively without finding any surefire cure.

So stripping aside all the rhetoric, the odds against this particular wonder cure being the one that prevents or cures cancer are... thousands to one against.

Is the evidence you've been presented with, for fullerenes being a cancer preventer/cure, anywhere near good enough to convince you of something that is only true one time in a thousand? One time in ten thousand?
_______________________

*If you're not applying Bayes' Theorem on a regular basis, you are NOT qualified to make medical decisions for anyone. At least, not if you prefer them living, rather than dead. That includes yourself.

I'm a lot more concerned by unknown dangers. There is some speculation that an effective Mito-Antioxidant would increase the production of advanced glycaemic endproducts. They could protect cancer-cellls somehow but all experimentation so far seems to go against that.

Here is an example of another designer-antioxidant called PEG-HCC

Among other things, while fullerenes have about a one in ten thousand (if that) chance of being the Grand Cancer Cure-All... they have a much higher chance of being in some way poisonous or actively carcinogenic, based on the rest of our experience with biochemistry. There are a LOT of harmful or toxic substances out there for every one that actually does your body good.

So even without being a biochemist who is an expert in glycemic this or oxidization that, I can tell you confidently that gambling on fullerenes is risky until they've been thoroughly studied and tested by people who ARE experts on these things.

And by the time that's done, the stuff will be certified for use as a medication. Or at least as an experimental drug.

[cosmicalstorm]

You put into words some half-formed thought I've had about this. I don't expect it to be a cure all for anything. We need mature reparation-tech for humans that will not be available for several decades at the very least before we can talk about cure-alls. I realize that. I realize it's a bet.

Best case scenario: This is a compound that slows down the ever ongoing decay of my body to some extent, maybe it will give me a few extra years that add to my probability of reaching Longevity escape velocity.
Current knowledge: Acute toxicity is ruled out, little knowledge on long term effects.
Worst case scenario: Serious longterm toxicity in humans. Maybe it will do the entire body good but create ROS in the retina and blind me eventually or something like that.

[Simon_Jester]

Competent gamblers weigh the odds.

Thing is, for every exotic chemical that has long term beneficial effect there are many exotic chemicals that have long term detrimental effect. This goes double for chemicals that are totally unlike anything the human body is evolved to 'know' how to deal with- and fullerenes aren't part of the ancestral environment.

So a chemical chosen at random whose effects have not been studied in a serious and complete fashion is almost certainly a harmful chemical.

Saying "I don't expect it to be a cure-all" is missing the point. The point is that until a great deal of effort goes into verifying that this substance does what you think it does, calling it a cure at all is premature. The odds are far higher that you are simply drinking poison in pursuit of immortality, like those Taoist alchemists who would mix arsenic and mercury compounds into their elixir of life. Most of whom had the same idea you did of finding something that would extend their life so as to allow further research into how to extend their life.

[cosmicalstorm]

It might not be completely alien to our biology

The role of carbon in the development of life and as the structural backbone of all organisms is universally accepted and an essential part of evolution. However, the molecular basis is largely unknown and the interactions of carbon with nitrogen and oxygen in space are enigmatic. In 1985, the previously unknown form of carbon, coined fullerene, was discovered. We hypothesize that by virtue of the unique properties of fullerene, this hollow, ultra-robust, large, purely carbon molecule was the earliest progenitor of life. It acted as a stable universal biologic template on which small molecules spontaneously assembled and then formed, by further assembly, a surface mantle (here termed rosasome) of larger molecules. We submit that this process, by its inherent flexibility, initiated evolution, allowing the emergence of parallel diverse rosasome lines responding selectively to varying spatial environments. For example, rosasomal lines mantled with nucleotide and peptide layers are conceived as primordial forerunners of the ubiquitous ribosome. Moreover, the parallel independent and inter- dependent evolution of rosasome lines would be more rapid than sequential development, refute precedence of either DNA or RNA, and explain the evolution of integration of two subunits with different structures and functions in ribosomes and of the triplet nature of the codon. Based on recent astronomical data, this hypothesis supports the concept that life is not a singularity. This concept also suggests a potential vehicle for therapeutics, biotechnology and genetic engineering.
IMA b

Here is another paper on cancer and mitoROS production

Mitochondria-targeted antioxidant mitoTEMPO inhibits glycolysis and induces melanoma cell death by blocking ROSsensitive survival and metabolic pathwaysRafal R Nazarewicz1, Anna E Dikalova1, Alfiya T Bikineyeva1, Sergey V Ivanov2 and Sergey I Dikalov1

1 Division of Clinical Pharmacology, Vanderbilt University Medical Center, Nashville, TN

2 Department of Surgery, Yale Cancer Center, New Haven, CT

Superoxide (O2• ) plays an important role in regulation of cell proliferation and cell survival. It also stimulates malignant transformation and glycolysis. We have hypothesized that scavenging of mitochondrial O2• in cancer cells selectively inhibits redox sensitive regulation of metabolic and cell survival pathways resulting in cell death. In order to test this hypothesis we have studied direct effect of mitochondria-targeted superoxide scavenger mitoTEMPO on B16-F0 mouse melanoma cells and tumor growth in nude mice model of human melanoma using A375 cells. In this work, for the first time, we show that mitochondria-targeted SOD mimetic mitoTEMPO inhibited cell growth, reduced viability and induced apoptosis in melanoma cells but did not affect nonmalignant skin fibroblasts. Treatment of melanoma cells with mitoTEMPO significantly diminished mitochondrial ROS, inhibited redox dependent Akt and Erk, restored activity of mitochondrial pyruvate dehydrogenase, reduced HIF1-α and lactate dehydrogenase expression. These changes in signaling events caused metabolic switch from glycolysis to mitochondrial metabolism. Suppression of glycolysis in mitoTEMPO treated melanoma cells resulted in significant drop of cellular ATP and induced cancer cell death. Scavenging of mitochondrial O2• effectively suppresses growth of established tumor in the mouse model of human melanoma. Our data therefore support hypothesis that anticancer activity of mitochondria-targeted antioxidants is likely mediated by inhibition of redox-sensitive cell signaling and metabolic changes leading to reduced cancer cell survival. We suggest that mitochondrial superoxide is a novel and promising pharmacological target to treat melanoma.

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This Article

FASEB J. April 2013 27 (Meeting Abstract Supplement)793.7

[Simon_Jester]

So, some biochemist out there has hypothesized that fullerenes might have played a role in the formation of life from the primordial soup.

You treat this as a refutation of my statement that [fullerenes are] "chemicals that are totally unlike anything the human body is evolved to 'know' how to deal with- and fullerenes aren't part of the ancestral environment."

I would like to gently remind you that Man did not emerge directly from the primordial ooze, and that there were many things which were routine normal conditions for the earliest single-celled life, things those organisms literally could not survive without, that would be utterly fatal to humans today. Such as an oxygen-free atmosphere.

Fullerenes MIGHT, purely hypothetically, have been harmless to archaeobacteria, or even beneficial to them. This says nothing about their effects on humans.
________________

Meanwhile, your "here is another article" article does not address the fundamental problem, which is that the process of scientific study of the effects of drinking fullerene soup on the human body are entirely unknown, except for the most basic "it hasn't actually killed me yet" observation.

The science so far (including that article) may have established that fullerenes kill cancer cells in a petri dish. Thing is... well, Randall Munroe said it fairly well.

[cosmicalstorm]

I know Simon. That's why I added a simley-face to that article.

There is a Fullerene-researcher from Ukraine who goes under the shortname of GVA. He, and some other russian researchers believe it plays a fundamental role in biology. At a first glance his website seems like the usual snake-oil but he has published a large number of papers on this subject and I find it hard to just brush them away.
(What makes him further credible is that it seems next to impossible to actually order his product, which is Hydrated Fullerenes, usually a buy-link shows up the second you come to a page like this.)

Fullerenes in nature

Fullerenes exist everywhere in nature, and especially where carbon and high energy exist. They exist near carbon stars, in interstellar space, in places where lighting has previously struck or close to volcano craters. They even form when gas burns in the household gas cooker or in the flame of a regular lighter.


Fullerenes have also been found in places of ancient carbon rock accumulation. The Karelian minerals – schungite have a special place in this regard. These rocks, comprises of up to 80% of pure carbon, are about 2 billion years old. The nature of their origin is still not clear. One suggestion is that it was due to the impact of a big carbon meteorite. In 1992, in a scientific journal, it was announced that natural fullerenes were found in schungite. In 1999, using the ideology of obtaining hydrated fullerene water solutions, we also succeeded in extracting and identifying fullerene, but only C60, in high-carbon type I schungite.


Since the time of Peter I (Peter the Great), there has been a medicinal spring, known as “Marcial waters” in Karelia. For many years, no one could ultimately explain the reason for the multiple therapeutic properties of this spring. It was assumed that increased iron content is the cause of its healing effect. But there are many springs containing iron and, as a rule, the medicinal effects after their use are rather limited. It was only when fullerenes were found in schungite rocks, which the spring flows through, that the assumption came about that fullerene is the quintessence of the medicinal effect of Marcial water. But the medicinal properties of this water, similar to thawed water, are preserved for a rather short time. The following day, it tends to lose its properties. Marcial water, passing over rocks containing fullerene and fullerene-like structures, only “saturates” with the structures, imposed by the rock. When stored, these life-giving clusters disintegrate. Fullerene does not dissolve in water spontaneously. That is why there is no structure-forming element that is able to preserve ordered water clusters for a long time. Such water soon takes on the properties of regular water. In addition, the ions present therein rebuild native water structure themselves, forming their own hydrated clusters.


Having obtained molecular-colloidal solutions of hydrated fullerenes in water once, we tried to reproduce the natural and medicinal properties of Marcial water under laboratory conditions. With this purpose, we took highly purified water and added hydrated fullerene C60 in “homeopathic” dosage. Biological trials were conducted on different models. The results were striking. On virtually any pathology model, we observed a positive biological effect. The experiments lasted for more than 15 years. Many pathological changes in a living organism are eliminated and it returns to its normal, healthy condition. This is not a medicinal preparation of purposeful action, nor a foreign chemical substance, but just a carbon ball, dissolved in water. It seems that hydrated C60 fullerene assists an organism to return to its “a normal condition” in the case of any negative changes and it does so due to the restoration and maintenance of those structures it has generated as a matrix in the process of the origin of life.

The most notable property of hydrated fullerene is its ability to neutralise active radicals. The antioxidant activity of hydrated fullerene exceeds the effect of other known antioxidants, such as vitamins E and C, carotenoids, flavonoids, ionol, etc. by 100–1000 times. Furthermore, hydrated fullerene does not suppress the natural level of free radicals in the organism, but becomes active only under conditions of their increased concentration. The more that free radicals form in the organism, the “more” active hydrated fullerene become to neutralise them. The mechanism of fullerene’s antioxidant effect is fundamentally different from that of other known, practically used antioxidants.



One molecule of conventional antioxidant is generally required to neutralise one radical. At the same time, single hydrated fullerene is able to neutralise an unlimited quantity of active radicals. It is sui generis an antioxidant-catalyst. Moreover, the fullerene molecule itself does not participate in the reaction, but it is only a structure-forming element of the water cluster. Such a water cluster consists of rather strongly bound water close to fullerene’s surface and ordered water layers that extend to rather significant distances from the centre of the cluster. According to a light scattering estimation, the radius of the ordered water layer is 23 - 80 nm (we recall that the fullerene C60 radius is 0.5 nm). Apparently, the degree of arrangement, and thus, of the properties of the water layers in such a cluster are determined by the distance from the centre. Now every molecule, ion, and active radical, having its specific hydrated shell, and in accordance with the principle of similarity, can “find” its ordered water layer in the structure of the (C60@nH2O)mH2O supercluster.



As a consequence of this, in a particular area of the water supercluster, there occur processes involving the local concentration of various radicals, molecules, ions, due to structures of water that are similar to each other. Such concentrating, in turn, increases the probability of different reactions among them. And aggressive free radicals, concentrating in layers of the water supercluster, recombine among themselves and are transformed into neutral molecules.



Such an antiradical mechanism, in terms of the origination and development of biological matter, is universal and is determined by the structural properties of the water itself. And only by itself! It seems that nature could not wait until the “required”, well-known antioxidants (carotenoids, flavonoids, etc.) were synthesised from the simplest molecules, that further, representing themselves as antiradical defenders, would promote the beginning of the synthesis and accumulation of the most important biological molecules – DNA, RNA, proteins, enzymes, etc.



From the aforementioned, we can conclude that
there cannot be more universal antioxidants, namely free-radical processes regulators, than the water structures ordered quite specifically, which, at the first stage of the primary evolution of biological molecules, served as their "defenders" from free-radical cleavage under the effect of radioactive radiation, hard ultra-violet rays, oxygen radical forms (ROS), etc.
Thus, if we ask “what should an ideal “antioxidant” be?”, in terms of the normal functioning and protection of our biological systems, we can arrive at the conclusion that it should:

- Display its activity both in hydrophobic and hydrophilic media;
- Neutralise free radicals before they approach cell membrane;
- Neutralise only excessive free radicals and not affect their level, which is necessary for the normal functioning of the biological system;
- Not alter the natural states of hydrated shells, directly surrounding normal (native) biological structures and, in addition, stabilise both of them;
- Not be perceived by the organism as a foreign substance, i.e. be non-toxic, non- immunogenic, etc. and, at the cellular level, not influence its normal homeostasis;
- Act in very small doses for a long time (e.g. days or weeks) after a single administration into the organism.

Among all known antioxidants only hydrated C60 fullerene and its water solutions meet all these requirements best.

More from his page here:
http://www.ipacom.com/index.php/en/full ... er-left/57

His publications
http://www.researchgate.net/profile/G_A ... blications

(Note that if you google his name one woman who goes under the name of Sarah Vaugther has a page were she calls him a fraudster but he seems like the more trustworthy of those two IMO)

I'm going to change my fullerene-schedule to one somewhat larger dose of C60-extra virgin olive oil every 30-50 days or so to balance the risk in case this is actually a toxic substance.
There is another mitochondrially locked antioxidant called Spoiler

MitoQ

that is more safety-tested than Fullerenes 60 (but I suspect it's less potent too) and I'll use that in the time in-between.

(Spoiler-tag around the name so there will be less suspicion I'm trying to sell something, I'm not)

[Simon_Jester]

I know Simon. That's why I added a simley-face to that article.

There is a Fullerene-researcher from Ukraine who goes under the shortname of GVA. He, and some other russian researchers believe it plays a fundamental role in biology. At a first glance his website seems like the usual snake-oil but he has published a large number of papers on this subject and I find it hard to just brush them away.

...In what journals?

That might be like boasting about the book you've written on cosmology... which turns out to be a self-published book.

(What makes him further credible is that it seems next to impossible to actually order his product, which is Hydrated Fullerenes, usually a buy-link shows up the second you come to a page like this.)

Credible? A serious biochemist isn't going to be marketing his own product at all.

Anyone with a direct profit motive for proving their product works is NOT repeat NOT a person you want to listen to when deciding whether their product works. This is why we have something called the FDA in America, and given the current state of the government in the Ukraine, I'd consider buying 'experimental medicine' marketed by a 'researcher' in the Ukraine to be nothing more than a fancy way to play Russian roulette.

And just because you can't purchase this product he's offering for sale doesn't mean he's not selling it to his neighbors. He's still a snake oil salesman.

Fullerenes in nature

Fullerenes exist everywhere in nature, and especially where carbon and high energy exist. They exist near carbon stars, in interstellar space, in places where lighting has previously struck or close to volcano craters. They even form when gas burns in the household gas cooker or in the flame of a regular lighter.

I don't know about you, but I don't eat any of those things.

Fullerenes have also been found in places of ancient carbon rock accumulation. The Karelian minerals – schungite have a special place in this regard... In 1999, using the ideology of obtaining hydrated fullerene water solutions, we also succeeded in extracting and identifying fullerene, but only C60, in high-carbon type I schungite.

So basically, this guy is saying they're "natural" because they're found in minerals.

So is arsenic.

Since the time of Peter I (Peter the Great), there has been a medicinal spring, known as “Marcial waters” in Karelia. For many years, no one could ultimately explain the reason for the multiple therapeutic properties of this spring...

So, magic healing springs! Is there any independent documentation that this spring really is a magic healing spring?

Having obtained molecular-colloidal solutions of hydrated fullerenes in water once, we tried to reproduce the natural and medicinal properties of Marcial water under laboratory conditions. With this purpose, we took highly purified water and added hydrated fullerene C60 in “homeopathic” dosage. Biological trials were conducted on different models. The results were striking. On virtually any pathology model, we observed a positive biological effect. The experiments lasted for more than 15 years. Many pathological changes in a living organism are eliminated and it returns to its normal, healthy condition. This is not a medicinal preparation of purposeful action, nor a foreign chemical substance, but just a carbon ball, dissolved in water. It seems that hydrated C60 fullerene assists an organism to return to its “a normal condition” in the case of any negative changes and it does so due to the restoration and maintenance of those structures it has generated as a matrix in the process of the origin of life.

This is bullshit, "homeopathic" dosage means that even if his claims are true it's not the fullerenes doing it, and in general this reads exactly like the work of a snake oil salesman putting on a lab coat and pretending to be a scientist.

The rest of this, well. Again, from the fact that he's doing all this to promote his personal brand of snake oil, I'm going to say that it does not matter what he says. If it's supported by other researchers who work in reputable organizations and don't conduct their business like sleazy frauds, quote them. Not him.

I'm going to change my fullerene-schedule to one somewhat larger dose of C60-extra virgin olive oil every 30-50 days or so to balance the risk in case this is actually a toxic substance.

This is not likely to actually make you safer, although it might reduce harm.

Seriously, though, this is basic.

Do not take things as 'medicine' that have not been thoroughly tested through a sensible review process that is managed by actual real people who will be held accountable for failure.

If it turned out tomorrow that medicinal fullerenes were the next thalidomide, who would be holding these bozos accountable? Would the government of the Ukraine take time out from losing a civil war to prosecute this 'scientist?' What would happen?

There's no accountability, so there can be no trust, so you shouldn't trust these people.

[cosmicalstorm]

We will see how it turns out. I'll come back here in the future and give updates whether good or bad.