10 Glorious Heritage class ships in the Stargate Verse

[Connor MacLeod]

The Andromeda side still also has sucky tactical FTL capabilities (which is to say little to none), and they lack FTL sensors and communications.

At the very least, the Stargate side should have decent tactical FTL, which can go a long way to negating Andromeda advantages.

Plus, they should have nuclear weaponry at least comparable to what we can produce in a modern time, and thats disregarding the enhancement technology they possess. That said, they should have more than sufficient capabilities to damage/destroy Andromeda vessels.

[SirNitram]

I'm no expert on Andromeda since I'm not aware of anything after mid season 2 (that's when the show went down the shitter), but from I've seen, Magog ships attach themselves to the hull and burn their way through. Quite different from missiles exploding against the hull.

Nope. I just saw an episode where they overrun Andromeda.

They sit on the hull and -thumpthumpthump- their noses against the hull until they breach.

Most pathetic spacebased weapon, this is IT. Even the Scro mount more intelligent weapons, and they're Orcs.

[Thanas]

Okay, let's start.

Connor MacLeod


The 20 gigaton warheads stem from the episode The Belly of the Beast.

Beka's transmission to Dylan:

"We've hit it with 20 gigaton rockets"

Since there is only one kind of missile tube, this means that an XMC can fire 40 of those missiles per salvo. Do the Math, will ya?

Yeah right. This is the same universe where the standard offensive weapon is a 20 megaton kinetic warhead, isnt it? And they can last I remember pump out only about 300 of those a second (360 gigatons a minute IIRC "The Prince" correctly.) Strike one against your number wanking.

I have not seen the prince. Please provide an exact quote.

Furthermore, we know from allsystems.org that the Oracle heavy attack drone (of which a GHC carries 16) used offensively yields at most 1 gigaton tops. If they had weapons more powerful than that in ship to ship combat, there would be no reason whatsoever to use the Oracle as an offensive weapon, period. Strike two against your number wanking.

First, Connor, read the site correctly, will ya? It reads Oracle heavy sensor/attack drone

Oracle is a semi-sentient, autonomous spacecraft that can carry up to four different modular sensor packages, all of which are based on larger shipboard counterparts. It is used to provide medium-to-long range target sensing for offensive and defensive operations, and can lead "packs" of smart missiles on search and destroy missions. In attack mode, the main body of the drone drops its sensor packages for later retrieval and accelerates at relativistic speeds toward a target. The resultant collision can produce an explosion that ranges between a few kilotons and a gigaton of destructive power.

You know, Batman and me had a discussion on about one week ago.

First, the primary function of the drone is (as the text indicates) to function as a sensor drone.
Second, drones are rarely used in battle for the purpose of attack. Please provide a quote where drones are used for Starship attack.

It would speak against all military logic to sacrifice a sensor for attack.

And IIRC there are several weapons to Andromedaverse ships being damaged by Gigawatt range weapons (Which I believe the Pyrians use, as do others.)

You do believe. Got any numbers to back that up? We know that the Pyrans have the capacity to somehow weaken hulll plates so that they crumple in HArpers fist.

Lastly, we know that in "Mathematics of Tears" it only took TWO kinetic warheads to destroy a GHC. Hardly the teraton+ resistance you claim.

Watch the ep again. Tyr fires missiles. You see four huge bolts of blue light head for the Pax. It is unknown whether these are single missiles or missile packs. (I tend to favor the latter since they are much huger than the single missiles. You can see them with your bare eye travelling all the way to the Pax, something you don't see with single missiles)

You should also remember that the Pax wanted to committ suicide.

Rev Bem: "Pax's breaking up"
Beka:"There's no way our weapon burst could have caused all that."

The pax deliberately let her being destroyed.

They sit on the hull and -thumpthumpthump- their noses against the hull until they breach.

Regarding the Magog: You are right, the Magog punching through the hull are laughable. However we also have evidence of the Andromeda surviving several salvos:

- In ADDB - being bombarded by Nietzcheans for a lengthy Period of time
- In Starcrossed - being bombarded by a DSA II (180 missile tubes) for at least half a minute
- In Under the Night - being fired upon by a fleet of 10.000 Nietzcheans and holding up for several minutes
- In DMZ - being fired upon by Raiders.


We also know that the High Guard has something called "reactive shielding". Whatever that is, don't ask me.

[SirNitram]

They sit on the hull and -thumpthumpthump- their noses against the hull until they breach.

Regarding the Magog: You are right, the Magog punching through the hull are laughable. However we also have evidence of the Andromeda surviving several salvos:

- In ADDB - being bombarded by Nietzcheans for a lengthy Period of time
- In Starcrossed - being bombarded by a DSA II (180 missile tubes) for at least half a minute
- In Under the Night - being fired upon by a fleet of 10.000 Nietzcheans and holding up for several minutes
- In DMZ - being fired upon by Raiders.


We also know that the High Guard has something called "reactive shielding". Whatever that is, don't ask me.

So, which of these instances is quantifiably superior to a low-velocity thump against the hull? If your argument is that this is completely incorrect(And as I recall from the series, you have alot of instances to justify away), you had better start doing more than 'Oh, they got hit with a bunch of missiles, therefore, teraton endurance.'

[Alyeska]

stats given from the official site are canon, and take precendence over any stats derived from visuals, so apparently, yes.

So, instead of taking objective data, we should listen to a website's fluff.

Prove it.

The shows creators stated that dialogue holds higher precedence over visuals. They stated visuals are merely representations of what is going on for the viewer to see. Ask Stravo, he saw the quote even.

The series creators are allowed to create their own rules of canon. They have done so.

However these GT weapon claims are absolute bullshit. The most powerful missile is only about 20 MT. AP cannons are more powerful, but they lack range.

[SirNitram]

The shows creators stated that dialogue holds higher precedence over visuals. They stated visuals are merely representations of what is going on for the viewer to see. Ask Stravo, he saw the quote even.

Apparently we have hit a lingual barrier. When I say 'Prove it', I do not mean 'Restate yourself', I mean, 'Provide some measure of evidence in favor of the statement.' You have made this claim dozens of times. Time to put up or shut up.

[Luzifer's right hand]

The shows creators stated that dialogue holds higher precedence over visuals. They stated visuals are merely representations of what is going on for the viewer to see. Ask Stravo, he saw the quote even.

Apparently we have hit a lingual barrier. When I say 'Prove it', I do not mean 'Restate yourself', I mean, 'Provide some measure of evidence in favor of the statement.' You have made this claim dozens of times. Time to put up or shut up.

The post from the author was on Slipstream bbs afaik(I only heard about it myself). I searched for the qoute myself a week ago however it seems the forum is closed now.

[SirNitram]

The shows creators stated that dialogue holds higher precedence over visuals. They stated visuals are merely representations of what is going on for the viewer to see. Ask Stravo, he saw the quote even.

Apparently we have hit a lingual barrier. When I say 'Prove it', I do not mean 'Restate yourself', I mean, 'Provide some measure of evidence in favor of the statement.' You have made this claim dozens of times. Time to put up or shut up.

The post from the author was on Slipstream bbs afaik(I only heard about it myself). I searched for the qoute myself a week ago however it seems the forum is closed now.

So there's no evidence. Is that what you're saying? And you expect everyone who is thinking logically to just ignore that fact.

[Luzifer's right hand]

So there's no evidence. Is that what you're saying? And you expect everyone who is thinking logically to just ignore that fact.

Yeah there is no evidence(afaik).

I don't expect everyone to ignore the fact, I will not belive it myself until someone provides evidence.

[Connor MacLeod]

The 20 gigaton warheads stem from the episode The Belly of the Beast.

Beka's transmission to Dylan:

"We've hit it with 20 gigaton rockets"

Since there is only one kind of missile tube, this means that an XMC can fire 40 of those missiles per salvo. Do the Math, will ya?

Gee, as I recall Bekah told him twenty gigatons of warheads plural (something that Dylan also echoed some minutes later.. "Bekah already hit that thing with twenty gigatons of missiles." - no idea of how many missiles or how long, just that they hit it with twenty gigatons TOTAL, not that each warhead WAS twenty gigatons. And to add to that Tyr makes explicit mention of using "full missile barrage" when they DO fire on it, which means they were using the max 320 missile/second rate of fire.

Let me guess, you're arguing this mostly from memory rather than actually bothering to check the episodes like i am,. arent you?


(Incidentally, if we are generous and ASSUME that they tossed out a single 20 gigaton barrage of missiles, this results in a warhead yield of around 60-65 megatons upper limit. Which incidentally fits with what I've established.)

I have not seen the prince. Please provide an exact quote.

Gee, a bit pushy aren't we? Especially when we're not exactly providing explicit evidence either (and what evidence we do provide is rather distorted?) Oh well, since I am an honest and methodical debator, I actually will gladly provide the quote.

Andromeda: "Forty missile launchers, each firing eight rounds per second."

Military officer: About 19,200 rounds a minute. Twenty Megaton payloads?"

Dylan: "Give or take"

Which is ALREADY well established by what is in allsystems org and what was long known on the slipstreambbs (as established by the writers, and the science advisor, paul woodmansee.)

First, Connor, read the site correctly, will ya? It reads Oracle heavy sensor/attack drone

Oracle is a semi-sentient, autonomous spacecraft that can carry up to four different modular sensor packages, all of which are based on larger shipboard counterparts. It is used to provide medium-to-long range target sensing for offensive and defensive operations, and can lead "packs" of smart missiles on search and destroy missions. In attack mode, the main body of the drone drops its sensor packages for later retrieval and accelerates at relativistic speeds toward a target. The resultant collision can produce an explosion that ranges between a few kilotons and a gigaton of destructive power.

You know, Batman and me had a discussion on about one week ago.

First, the primary function of the drone is (as the text indicates) to function as a sensor drone.
Second, drones are rarely used in battle for the purpose of attack. Please provide a quote where drones are used for Starship attack.

First, its amusing you're lecturing me on "accuracy of my sources", dipshit, since you couldn't even get the fucking quote from "Belly of the Beast" correct (or correctly interpreted.)

Second, I never explicitly said they used the oracle attack drones as anti-ship weapons. I simply indicated that they possess no anti-ship weapons of comparable yield. The fact that the function to use them offensively at ALL is an indicator that they possess no standard kinetic missiles approaching that level of power. In fact, thhe exact mode in which the drones are used to "attack" does not matter in the slightest (if they aren't designed for use against ships, this only reinforces the "upper limit" nature.) Now, whether or not they have warheads or energgy weapons is another debate.

Also, their primary "function" does not alter this, nor the apparent "rarity" you claim they are used (I would like a sourcee on this btw, if you're going to start being pedantic about your sources and start playing semantic games, asshole.)

Third, there you go again demanding I refute the bullshit you pull out of your ass. We have no reason to BELIEVE they have stronger warheads, thus the onus is on you to PROVE it, not respond to me with inane semantics bullshit.

It would speak against all military logic to sacrifice a sensor for attack.

Irrelevant. The fact that they CAN be used as a viable offensive weapon speaks against the fact they have a kinetic kill (And possibly warhead) missile even approaching the gigaton range. Which, as I already pointed out, corresponds with already established figures and firepower, none of which includes the bullshit you've apparently pulled out of your ass.

You do believe. Got any numbers to back that up? We know that the Pyrans have the capacity to somehow weaken hulll plates so that they crumple in HArpers fist.

Tyr: "Some sort of continuous beam plasma cannon?
Dylan: And powerful, at least a few dozen gigawatts.

Gee, I guess by Dylan's estimate a "few dozen gigawatts" can be considered a powerful weapon.

You know, this "I don't have to provide accurate information but I demand my opposition do so" bullshit of yours is getting tiresome. Its obvious that you're attempting to bullshit your way through this discussion, but I'm well used to this from the more rabid Andromeda fans. Its not as if you're the first to try to artificially inflate their firepower.

Just as an added detail, we know that their "point defense lasers" are in the megawatt range (as are the x-ray lasers metnioned on Allsystems.org, which appear to be anti-ship weapons.) Its interesting to note in Belly that they engage the big monster thing with lasers as well as the AP guns. Small wonder Dylan considered a "few dozen gigawatts" to be powerful, no?

Watch the ep again. Tyr fires missiles. You see four huge bolts of blue light head for the Pax. It is unknown whether these are single missiles or missile packs. (I tend to favor the latter since they are much huger than the single missiles. You can see them with your bare eye travelling all the way to the Pax, something you don't see with single missiles)

Gee, given your stellar track record of memory of Andromeda evidence, you'll forgive me if I trust my own observations of the episode (which I checked.) Only one missile hit (I guess I was being generous) that we saw, and the ship blew up (and appeared to have no visible evidence of major damage prior to this, in fact.)

However so what? Even if we're generous to you and accept your assumption all four hit, the most the ship could have been hit with was maybe four missiles. This still results in their defensive capabilities far below the thousands of gigatons you are claiming (which you are claiming still without proof to back it up I might add.)

AS for the "missile pack" bullshit, we see no evidencec of this (the single impact we see does NOT break up into multiple warheads), so your speculative bullshit holds no water (even thouhg you obviously expect us to take your speculation as canon fact.)

You should also remember that the Pax wanted to committ suicide.

Rev Bem: "Pax's breaking up"
Beka:"There's no way our weapon burst could have caused all that."

The pax deliberately let her being destroyed.

Wow, this has to be about teh ONLY reference youh ave gotten even remotely accurate! And yet, all you've demonstrated is that she didn't bother trying to use her point defense effectively! How does this alter the fact that the missiles cleaerly were powerful enough to penetrate (at the very least) again?

Or are you pretending that she blew herself up when the missiles hit, and they didn't contribute to her death in the slightest? I see the Rommies are starting to use Fiver "holding back" tactics now as well.

Regarding the Magog: You are right, the Magog punching through the hull are laughable. However we also have evidence of the Andromeda surviving several salvos:

- In ADDB - being bombarded by Nietzcheans for a lengthy Period of time
- In Starcrossed - being bombarded by a DSA II (180 missile tubes) for at least half a minute
- In Under the Night - being fired upon by a fleet of 10.000 Nietzcheans and holding up for several minutes
- In DMZ - being fired upon by Raiders.

Wow, and no numbers or math at all! Weren't you the one being pedantic with me before about how scarce my evidence was, you dishonest little asshole? Where exactly did you get the right to employ a double stnadard in this debate?

We also know that the High Guard has something called "reactive shielding". Whatever that is, don't ask me.

And yet another example of his "I can demand exact references from my opponents but not be expected to provide likewise" double standard! What a credit to Andromeda fans you are!

[Connor MacLeod]

Apparently we have hit a lingual barrier. When I say 'Prove it', I do not mean 'Restate yourself', I mean, 'Provide some measure of evidence in favor of the statement.' You have made this claim dozens of times. Time to put up or shut up.

The post from the author was on Slipstream bbs afaik(I only heard about it myself). I searched for the qoute myself a week ago however it seems the forum is closed now.

So there's no evidence. Is that what you're saying? And you expect everyone who is thinking logically to just ignore that fact.

No remaining evidencee, but I do remember that being the policy when I spent time over on the slipstream bbs boards (as established by the writers/sciencec advisor as well, IIRC.)

Its not really a major detail - most of the website stats are largely corroborated with in the TV show (weapons yields, rates of fire, acceleration, etc.) The only thing that might differ is that they aren't kinetic warheads (they could still be argued to be 20 megaton antimatter warheads of course.)

[Thanas]

Checked the episode.

Connor, you were right and my memory was wrong.
(Seems I have to rewrite my essay)

I concede the argument and I hope you accept my apology.

[Connor MacLeod]

Concession and apology accepted.

[Connor MacLeod]

Concession and apology accepted.

I also apologize for my harsh manner. I simply have little patience for this, as the topics have been discussed ad nauseum, and the conclusions still havent changed.

[Thanas]

No problem. No hurt feelings here.