David Cameron 'seriously concerned' by Gibraltar events

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David Cameron 'seriously concerned' by Gibraltar events

Post by EnterpriseSovereign »

Prime Minister David Cameron is "seriously concerned" about the escalation of tensions at the Spanish-Gibraltarian border.

Spain has said it is considering a range of proposals including a new 50 euro (£43) fee to cross the border with the British territory.

Mr Cameron said none of the measures had been raised with the UK government.

Spain's latest move follows increased vehicle searches at the border last weekend, causing major delays.

In an interview with the Spanish ABC newspaper, published on Sunday, Foreign Minister Jose Manuel Garcia-Margallo said Spain was considering charging people to enter and exit Gibraltar through its border post.

Mr Garcia-Margallo also hinted at the introduction of other measures, including tax investigations into property owned by Gibraltarians in neighbouring parts of Spain, and the closing of Spanish airspace to flights heading to Gibraltar.

Gibraltar's Chief Minister Fabian Picardo has accused Spain of "sabre-rattling".

He told BBC Radio 4's Today programme: "The things that Mr Garcia-Margallo has said are more reminiscent of the type of statement you'd hear from North Korea than from an EU partner.


"We've seen it before during Franco's time during the 1960s, but I think all of us hoped that those politics were never going to come back."

Gibraltar has linked Spain's hardline stance to the creation of an artificial reef in waters off Gibraltar.

Last month, Gibraltar dropped 70 concrete blocks into the bay to create the reef, but Spanish fishermen, who trawl the area for shellfish, say the move has prevented them working.

Spanish authorities said the blocks had been laid "without the necessary authorisation".

Mr Garcia-Margallo told the newspaper the proceeds from the border fee could be used to "help fishermen affected by the destruction of fishing grounds".

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The newspaper article is the latest of several incidents in recent weeks that have escalated tensions.

In June, shots were reportedly fired by a Spanish Guardia Civil vessel at a jet skier in waters around Gibraltar.

Then at the end of last month residents and tourists had to endure three days of delays at the border as a result of increased vehicle searches by the Spanish authorities.

The Spanish government said it had a duty to prevent smuggling.
Spain disputes UK sovereignty over Gibraltar, a limestone outcrop near the southern tip of the Iberian peninsula, which has been ruled by Britain since 1713.

Spanish daily newspaper ABC said there was "nothing strange about Spain's decision to exercise its rights and obligations regarding a border outside the Schengen zone", and it was "up to London to explain to the people of Gibraltar that they have to take this into account before they start throwing concrete blocks into waters that are not theirs".

An editorial in Diario de Almeria said Spain should consider removing the blocks "because not taking action would mean to once again surrender to the practices that Gibraltar and the UK have been using for three centuries".

The UK's shadow foreign office minister Kerry McCarthy said a border fee would be "unacceptable" and the Foreign Office must resist any efforts to impose one - or to use the border crossing "to score political points".

Sir Graham Watson, a Lib Dem MEP for the South West of England and Gibraltar, said he had written to Jose Manuel Barroso, president of the EU Commission, about Mr Garcia-Margallo's comments.

He asked Mr Barroso "for his personal intervention to stop such objectionable behaviour by an EU government bullying EU citizens".

"The European Commission must remind Madrid of its obligations under EU law," he added.
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Spain has been compared to North Korea in how it's behaving, but I see many similarities with the way Argentina has been acting like a spoiled child re. the Falklands.
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Re: David Cameron 'seriously concerned' by Gibraltar events

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The situation is a bit more complex than that.
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Re: David Cameron 'seriously concerned' by Gibraltar events

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EnterpriseSovereign wrote:Spain has been compared to North Korea in how it's behaving, but I see many similarities with the way Argentina has been acting like a spoiled child re. the Falklands.
Spoilt child? Let me get this straight: Britain conquered most of the spots in the world that are oddly far away from their own islands by massacring, let me beat that with a literary club into your stupid head, literally massacring less industrialized armies and navies with guns. That's the only "right" it has and ever had to those territories - the right of a brute who took something by force and kept it as his for centuries. Which is an unbelievably apt description of Gibraltar, by the way. Of course now that Britain is no longer the Empire, it is reasonable that even the very last parts of its imperial attire are crumbling like cookies.

Do I weep? No. Do I like the Spanish Empire more? Quite the opposite - I want the Spanish Empire to end, and quite probably would support the cause of Catalan independence. All empires that were and are should come to naught. Not just territory-wise, no - the very concept of Empire should wither away and be decisively, once and for all replaced with the concept of a republic.

As for "citizens of Gibraltar", from what I gathered, that's one of those oligarch tax havens where the ultra-rich live high and party to death, right next to a NATO warbase. *tries to squeeze out a tear, but fails* Soldiers and oligarchs. The masters and their war machine. Now why would I even want to defend whatever they are up to right now?
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Re: David Cameron 'seriously concerned' by Gibraltar events

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EnterpriseSovereign wrote:Spain has been compared to North Korea in how it's behaving
By who? Retarded people, or the Daily Mail? How exactly are Spain and N. Korea even remotely comparable in... well, anything? Let me guess, more nationalism?
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Re: David Cameron 'seriously concerned' by Gibraltar events

Post by Vehrec »

Uhh, Stas, weren't most of the current bits of the 'British empire' that aren't connected to the other bits the product of...sticking flags on random islands? I mean, Bermuda, Falklands, Cayman islands, South Georgia and St. Helena are not exactly places where you had a large population to massacre. Gibraltar, Akrotiri and Dhekelia are a somewhat different story, but the conquest and annexation of Gibraltar was a mere drop of blood compared to the oceans that were spilled in the wars of the 16th-20th century. What is the date of expiration on claims of territory? Does the state of Vietnam exist in any legitimate fashion? Do the Greeks still claim Istanbul is Constantinople? Would the Egyptian people want to recover the lost territories in Sudan? Is it Alsace-Lorraine or Elsass-Lothringen, and is it historically French or German?
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Re: David Cameron 'seriously concerned' by Gibraltar events

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Vehrec wrote:the conquest and annexation of Gibraltar was a mere drop of blood compared to the oceans that were spilled in the wars of the 16th-20th century.
No, it was a direct reason for Spain's involvement in most wars of the 18th century.
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Re: David Cameron 'seriously concerned' by Gibraltar events

Post by Borgholio »

I think the right of conquest is a globally accepted concept, regardless of how much blood is spilled in the act of said conquest. If Britain conquered Gibraltar 300 years ago, Spain had all that time to dispute it but they never did. Thus, they essentially conceded it to Britain.

Same could be said about the Mexican - American War. The war was a terrible massacre, but we ended up with the entire Southwest under our control. Mexico hasn't tried to take it back or dispute the conquest in almost 200 years. Thus, it's rightfully ours.
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Re: David Cameron 'seriously concerned' by Gibraltar events

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Vehrec wrote:What is the date of expiration on claims of territory?
Whatever the claimants choose to be. France and Germany worked this out. Other nations haven't. There's no set date you can just put forth and go nyah nyah

And as for Greece, hell yeah we still call it Constantinople. Wanting to take it "back" is the realm of nationalist twits and assorted weird people, but nobody says Istanbul.
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Re: David Cameron 'seriously concerned' by Gibraltar events

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Gibralter was captured by the Anglo Dutch in 1704 from a peer imperial European competitor (well compared to the natives in other aquired territories), Spain has nothing to cry about.
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Re: David Cameron 'seriously concerned' by Gibraltar events

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Stas Bush wrote: Spoilt child? Let me get this straight: Britain conquered most of the spots in the world that are oddly far away from their own islands by massacring, let me beat that with a literary club into your stupid head, literally massacring less industrialized armies and navies with guns.
In both Gibraltar (as Patroklos has said) and the Falklands, England/Britain faced other European powers and/or their former colonies with the same level of technology. I would also point out that during the capture of Gibraltar in 1704, the defenders seem to have taken few casualities, while in the final British takeover of the Falkland Islands in 1833, the Argentine garrison left peacefully, though under protest.
That's the only "right" it has and ever had to those territories - the right of a brute who took something by force and kept it as his for centuries. Which is an unbelievably apt description of Gibraltar, by the way. Of course now that Britain is no longer the Empire, it is reasonable that even the very last parts of its imperial attire are crumbling like cookies.
So I assume you believe that Russia should grant independence to Siberia and the Russian Far East, since it conquered the indigenous peoples of those areas, and established colonies of ethnic Russians.
Do I weep? No. Do I like the Spanish Empire more? Quite the opposite - I want the Spanish Empire to end, and quite probably would support the cause of Catalan independence. All empires that were and are should come to naught. Not just territory-wise, no - the very concept of Empire should wither away and be decisively, once and for all replaced with the concept of a republic.
The examples of Rome and France show that a republic is quite capable of being an empire.
As for "citizens of Gibraltar", from what I gathered, that's one of those oligarch tax havens where the ultra-rich live high and party to death, right next to a NATO warbase. *tries to squeeze out a tear, but fails* Soldiers and oligarchs. The masters and their war machine. Now why would I even want to defend whatever they are up to right now?
As I understand it, the majority of Gibraltar's citizens are native-born, and their ancestors have lived there since the capture of Gibraltar, more than 300 years ago.
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Re: David Cameron 'seriously concerned' by Gibraltar events

Post by Crazedwraith »

If these measures are a response to british actions disrupting their fishing rights, well then they might have a point but the connection between the two seems strange to me.

Also, given that they're both EU members, isn't messing with people's border crossings contravening EU laws on free movement between states?
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Re: David Cameron 'seriously concerned' by Gibraltar events

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Gibraltar also, if I recall correctly, overwhelmingly rejected even joint Spanish/British sovereignty.
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Re: David Cameron 'seriously concerned' by Gibraltar events

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Under the Single European Act there can be no systematic customs controls at the borders of member states. I'm not up to snuff on Gibraltar's legal status but I'm guessing it counts, so the Spanish would be out of bounds here, much as I would find it delicious if the UK's insistence of picking and choosing what bits of EU law it wants to adhere to were to bite it in the ass in this particular instance.
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Re: David Cameron 'seriously concerned' by Gibraltar events

Post by Zaune »

So... anyone else have a sneaking suspicion that one or both sides are angling for a quick war to distract the masses at home from their economic woes?
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Re: David Cameron 'seriously concerned' by Gibraltar events

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Nah, just drama to serve the same purpose.
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Re: David Cameron 'seriously concerned' by Gibraltar events

Post by Admiral Valdemar »

Both sides could do to move the attention of their people to other matters outside their borders, but neither is stupid enough to start a war over this. Petulant, arrogant and vexing, yes. Suicidal? No.
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Re: David Cameron 'seriously concerned' by Gibraltar events

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I wouldn't be so sure. Mere diplomatic posturing tends not to be as good for the unemployment figures as a good solid war. The Argentines aren't cooperating, and barring an especially successful Octoberfest this year it's unlikely you'll all oblige us by invading Poland again, so I suppose we'll have to take our opportunities where we can find them.
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Re: David Cameron 'seriously concerned' by Gibraltar events

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Siege wrote:Under the Single European Act there can be no systematic customs controls at the borders of member states. I'm not up to snuff on Gibraltar's legal status but I'm guessing it counts, so the Spanish would be out of bounds here, much as I would find it delicious if the UK's insistence of picking and choosing what bits of EU law it wants to adhere to were to bite it in the ass in this particular instance.
I assume this applies between signatories, not with respect to nations outside the Union. If so, the Spanish might have an actual problem on their hands if the British aren't doing an adequate job controlling customs into Gibraltar, say, from across the Straits in Africa.
Zaune wrote:I wouldn't be so sure. Mere diplomatic posturing tends not to be as good for the unemployment figures as a good solid war. The Argentines aren't cooperating, and barring an especially successful Octoberfest this year it's unlikely you'll all oblige us by invading Poland again, so I suppose we'll have to take our opportunities where we can find them.
Heh.

Well, I honestly can't see it, but it's good that you have a sense of humor about the idea.
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Re: David Cameron 'seriously concerned' by Gibraltar events

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Vehrec wrote:What is the date of expiration on claims of territory?
None. And yes, this creates a multitude of problems and requires people to have consent over which territory is which. But it is a lot better than "I got this at some point in the past so it's mine forever".
Ultonius wrote:So I assume you believe that Russia should grant independence to Siberia and the Russian Far East
Yes. Modern Russia should be broken up if such are the desires of the people. Neither Siberia nor the Far East are oligarch dens (if anything, Moscow is a giant tumor sucking the regions dry with their bandit appointees) - so if they want to go, and perhaps they will in the near future, they have full right to do so. If "Siberian separatism" was not a nonexistent concept, I might as well have been an avid fan of it since it would serve to destroy the current regime that I despite faster than anything else. National borders are but collateral damage.
Borgholio wrote:I think the right of conquest is a globally accepted concept, regardless of how much blood is spilled in the act of said conquest.
I also think cannibalism was a globally accepted concept at some point, and so was slavery.
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Re: David Cameron 'seriously concerned' by Gibraltar events

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Simon_Jester wrote:Heh.

Well, I honestly can't see it, but it's good that you have a sense of humor about the idea.
If I didn't laugh, I'd probably cry.
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Re: David Cameron 'seriously concerned' by Gibraltar events

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Stas Bush wrote:None. And yes, this creates a multitude of problems and requires people to have consent over which territory is which. But it is a lot better than "I got this at some point in the past so it's mine forever".
Should Egypt be able to punish Israel for crimes from the bible?

Can the Cajuns of Louisiana make a case against the United Kingdom that their land in Canada was stolen from them?

Saying that there is no time limit is absolute bullshit. There comes a time when all the people living have no connection to the original event. The sons of the sons of the sons of the sons. So then you start punishing people for the sins of their grandfathers.

Should a Native American be able to evict me from my home for crimes committed by people not even related to me? Should I be forced to pay reparations for slavery when I never supported it?
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Re: David Cameron 'seriously concerned' by Gibraltar events

Post by K. A. Pital »

Alyeska wrote:
Stas Bush wrote:None. And yes, this creates a multitude of problems and requires people to have consent over which territory is which. But it is a lot better than "I got this at some point in the past so it's mine forever".
Should Egypt be able to punish Israel for crimes from the bible?

Can the Cajuns of Louisiana make a case against the United Kingdom that their land in Canada was stolen from them?

Saying that there is no time limit is absolute bullshit. There comes a time when all the people living have no connection to the original event. The sons of the sons of the sons of the sons. So then you start punishing people for the sins of their grandfathers.

Should a Native American be able to evict me from my home for crimes committed by people not even related to me? Should I be forced to pay reparations for slavery when I never supported it?
It is all well and nice when you say there is a time limit; however, I already explained that precisely this mindset (a) encourages genocidal behaviour - no survivor, no one to claim damage! (b) encourages holding to conquests as long as possible - they will be assimilated, resistance is futile and finally (c) encourages ignoring real reclamation cases because they are "too far in the past", as perhaps is the case with slavery or the extermination of American Natives.

I cannot speak for all your cases (it is up to the people to decide), but if this is true:
http://www.joe.ie/news/opinion-news/we- ... parations/
Just last month, Germany handed over the final $94 million payment of a bill it was lumbered with as part of the Treaty of Versailles at the conclusion of World War I. Germany had to issue foreign bonds during the inter-war period to raise funds to pay the reparations the Allies reckoned they were due.

So, Britain was entitled, right up until last month, to claim money from Germany as a way of negating British suffering during the Great War. Hmm. Makes you wonder.

Rather than gingerly holding out the begging bowl as Britain makes a big show of being a hero and making us look like a pathetic charity case, maybe we should be telling them they owe us reparations? It might seem like an excuse to dig up old grievances, but if the Germans were still paying off their World War I debt in October 2011 then there obviously isn't an expiry date on these things.
Then Britain (sic!) is getting reparations for something which occured 100 years ago. In which it was not a downtrodden victim like India, Ireland or a multitude of others crushed under the imperial heel. It was one of the culprits. One of the warmakers, one of the instigators of a global bloodletting on an unseen scale. And despite World War I being now universaly reviled as a senseless imperialistic bloodbath, Britain is still getting payments from Germany. 100 years later.

There's no expiry date for those who are strong enough to demand money. So there should not be an expiry date for those who were too weak either.
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Re: David Cameron 'seriously concerned' by Gibraltar events

Post by madd0ct0r »

if we're talking about expiry dates and treaties, Gibralter was ceded to Britain "in perpetuity" under the Treaty of Utrecht in 1713.

any reason this is not still valid?
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Re: David Cameron 'seriously concerned' by Gibraltar events

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You know, when a private person coerces another under threat of violence to cede his possessions to the aggressor, that private person is called a mugger and his possession of another one's stuff illegal. I always found it funny that this is something still not widely accepted when it comes to nation states. The end of WW2 it was supposed to herald the end of all these law of jungle style shenanigans too, remember? Pfft, nothing ever changes.
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Re: David Cameron 'seriously concerned' by Gibraltar events

Post by Grumman »

Metahive wrote:You know, when a private person coerces another under threat of violence to cede his possessions to the aggressor, that private person is called a mugger and his possession of another one's stuff illegal. I always found it funny that this is something still not widely accepted when it comes to nation states. The end of WW2 it was supposed to herald the end of all these law of jungle style shenanigans too, remember? Pfft, nothing ever changes.
When a private person mugs someone, we go after them and their fence. We don't wait until the goods have percolated through ten degrees of separation and then expect the last guy who innocently received the goods from someone who innocently received the goods from someone who innocently received the goods from... someone who received stolen goods from a thief to pay the price for that distant crime.
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