Ukraine reacts to fears of Russian invasion as troops build up at the border

[Col. Crackpot]

I'm going to point out that there are more weapons than bombs and bulllets. There are nightmare weapons other than nuclear warheads that could cause massive death. You are correct that Russia probably doesn't have an army of people that can do that, but like I said, there are, at least in theory, other ways to destroy a country. I sincerely hope they stay theoretical.

It still requires someone to fire the trigger on those WMDs on "your own people" according to Russian rhetoric. I think the rhetoric Russia is using is going to fundamentally limit the use of WMD ( at least deliberately) in Ukraine.

It's a good way for Putin to lose legitimacy amongst his own people. Trying to force the Soviet soldiers to fire on their own people famously did lead to the downfall of the Soviet Union after all.

I can’t help but worry that many of the checks and balances that existed in the Soviet Union with regards to the strategic forces may not exist in this autocratic regime that rules Russia now. Say what you will about the Soviets, but they had solid command and control over the nukes and didn’t want their kids incinerated by NATO counter strikes (Thank you Stanislav Petrov). Most Soviet officers weren’t monsters.

Now? I wonder…

[ray245]

I can’t help but worry that many of the checks and balances that existed in the Soviet Union with regards to the strategic forces may not exist in this autocratic regime that rules Russia now. Say what you will about the Soviets, but they had solid command and control over the nukes and didn’t want their kids incinerated by NATO counter strikes (Thank you Stanislav Petrov). Most Soviet officers weren’t monsters.

Now? I wonder…

It depends on how far the rot has set in the Russian army. Given the overall reluctance of many Russian conscripts in partaking in the Ukrainian war, I don't think there's too many ideological fanatics in the Russian military.

Most Russian soldiers seems to be either be forced to "join" the army, or they are so poor that they are mostly doing it for the pay. I mean there's some poll figures out there that says apparently half of Russia's under 35 wants to leave the country in some form or another.

Hardly the most loyal or fanatical demographic for Russia to draw its military from.

[The Infidel]

I'm going to point out that there are more weapons than bombs and bulllets. There are nightmare weapons other than nuclear warheads that could cause massive death. You are correct that Russia probably doesn't have an army of people that can do that, but like I said, there are, at least in theory, other ways to destroy a country. I sincerely hope they stay theoretical.

It still requires someone to fire the trigger on those WMDs on "your own people" according to Russian rhetoric. I think the rhetoric Russia is using is going to fundamentally limit the use of WMD ( at least deliberately) in Ukraine.

It's a good way for Putin to lose legitimacy amongst his own people. Trying to force the Soviet soldiers to fire on their own people famously did lead to the downfall of the Soviet Union after all.

There are rumors that the Russians have used thermobaric weapons, but I don't think it is confirmed yet.
Then again, both Russia and USA have used them before.

[ray245]

There are rumors that the Russians have used thermobaric weapons, but I don't think it is confirmed yet.
Then again, both Russia and USA have used them before.

I'm not surprised. But then again, using them in the middle of a conflict ( even if it is on a civilian area) is one thing, using them to systematically exterminate a population is another.

[ray245]

https://twitter.com/nexta_tv/status/149 ... _&ref_url=

"Russian Senator Lyudmila Narusova acknowledged huge losses of the #Russian army

Yesterday the conscripts, who were forced to sign a contract or signed for them, were withdrawn from the war zone in #Ukraine. But from a company of a hundred men only four were left alive."

I feel sorry for the conscripts forced to a fight a war they are not eager for. Imagine dying for a pointless war just because you were unlucky enough to be born at a certain year.

Fuck Putin for sending those boys to pointless death while he hides from everyone because of a fear of Covid.

[Col. Crackpot]

https://twitter.com/avindman/status/149 ... 94721?s=21

Reports of Russian tanks fighting each other outside Kyiv.

9 tanks and 4 APc’s destroyed. Either one hell of a cock up or something more concerning. For Russia anyway.

[Majin Gojira]

"Make war protestors army conscripts! That surely won't backfire!"

I mean, I was expecting this, but not so soon. Then again, Russian Army recruitment rumors...

[Broomstick]

There are rumors that the Russians have used thermobaric weapons, but I don't think it is confirmed yet.
Then again, both Russia and USA have used them before.

The weapons systems used to launch one variety of thermobaric weapon unquestionably has been seen traveling in Ukraine. That, along with some of the destruction seen, makes rumors of their use very plausible.

[Solauren]

I can’t help but worry that many of the checks and balances that existed in the Soviet Union with regards to the strategic forces may not exist in this autocratic regime that rules Russia now. Say what you will about the Soviets, but they had solid command and control over the nukes and didn’t want their kids incinerated by NATO counter strikes (Thank you Stanislav Petrov). Most Soviet officers weren’t monsters.

Now? I wonder…

You have to remember, alot of Soviet citizens honestly feared 'the West' and Capitalism. Soviet propoganda was that damn good. Therefore, the citizens that were part of the army was motivated to stay loyal, alert, ready, and free of corruption.

After the fall of the Soviet Union, and their press and information opening up, alot of eyes were opened, and they lost that fear. They realised they'd been lied too, and manipulated by their government. They lost that motivation to fight.

As a result, corruption was allowed to set in, and well, you get what was supposed to be a feared army exposed as rather third rate.

Worse yet, the corruption was so extensive, that the upper levels of government were either unaware of it, or refused to believe it.

Really, if Putin wanted someone to fight for his own glory and the glory of Russia, he should have been looking internally.

[EnterpriseSovereign]

I can’t help but worry that many of the checks and balances that existed in the Soviet Union with regards to the strategic forces may not exist in this autocratic regime that rules Russia now. Say what you will about the Soviets, but they had solid command and control over the nukes and didn’t want their kids incinerated by NATO counter strikes (Thank you Stanislav Petrov). Most Soviet officers weren’t monsters.

Now? I wonder…

You have to remember, alot of Soviet citizens honestly feared 'the West' and Capitalism. Soviet propoganda was that damn good. Therefore, the citizens that were part of the army was motivated to stay loyal, alert, ready, and free of corruption.

After the fall of the Soviet Union, and their press and information opening up, alot of eyes were opened, and they lost that fear. They realised they'd been lied too, and manipulated by their government. They lost that motivation to fight.

As a result, corruption was allowed to set in, and well, you get what was supposed to be a feared army exposed as rather third rate.

Worse yet, the corruption was so extensive, that the upper levels of government were either unaware of it, or refused to believe it.

Really, if Putin wanted someone to fight for his own glory and the glory of Russia, he should have been looking internally.

He's doing just that.

Russia has reportedly blocked all foreign media from reporting in the country after its media censor accused organisations, including the BBC and the Voice of America, of "spreading fakes about Ukraine" following Moscow's invasion.

Russia's media censor said it had blocked the websites of the BBC, Voice of America, Radio Free Europe, Deutsche Welle, and Meduza.

Independent Russian TV Rain was also barred by the Putin government after they referred to the Kremlin's invasion of Ukraine as a "war" while Russia’s top independent radio station, Ekho Moskvy (the Echo of Moscow), was also closed.

TV Rain said it is “temporarily suspending” operations and many of its reporters have fled Russia.
Staff were seen walking out during a YouTube stream, signing off with the words "no war".

They played out with a clip of Russian composer Tchaikovsky's Swan Lake, which has historically been played on Soviet Union state channels during political upheaval, for example when heads of state died.

Ekho Moskvy has been one of the most influential and respected media outlets in the country since it was founded in 1990. The station was taken off the air on Wednesday over the failure to toe the Kremlin’s official line while covering the invasion of Ukraine.

On Thursday, the station’s board of directors — which is controlled by its majority owner, a media arm of Russia’s state-controlled natural gas giant Gazprom — declared Ekho Moskvy closed. The station's journalists said they will keep working on social networks and YouTube.

RT Russia editor-in-chief Maria Baronova has also reportedly resigned over the Ukraine invasion - although this has not been confirmed.

Previously, Russian foreign ministry spokeswoman Maria Zakharova has accused the BBC of playing “a determined role in undermining the Russian stability and security”.

She also condemned the banning of Russian media RT and Sputnik globally, claiming the world was being deprived of Russia’s point of view and Western media was only giving one side.

Russian officials have demanded media in Russia cover the invasion of Ukraine in strict accordance with the official line and have quickly pounced on media that described Moscow's attack on Ukraine as an “invasion” or “a war” and carried statements from the Ukrainian side.

[Solauren]

Problem is, he's fighting the wrong people

[GrosseAdmiralFox]

I'm not surprised. But then again, using them in the middle of a conflict ( even if it is on a civilian area) is one thing, using them to systematically exterminate a population is another.

Given that every time that Ukraine was anywhere uppity in Russian history (and it was Russian territory)... well, progom is a nice word for it...

Cheers to good luck and good engineering. But If that isn’t the stupidest war crime ever I don’t know what is. Never fire on a nuclear facility. Ever. Never mind the largest such facility in all of Europe. Lest you run the risk of irradiating a sizable chunk of a continent.

This is the second combat operation over a nuclear facility thus far during this war. God help us all of the Russians are third time (un)lucky. This behavior needs to be condemned from the highest halls of power everywhere.

Some of the info I've scrounged up (and take this with a lake-draining amount of salt) was that as the fighting was heading towards the plant, the staff prepared to shut the plant down, then an artillery shell hit the plant (where specifically is still fuzzy at this point, but there are points that hit a non-reactor portion of the plant), causing a SCRAM in three reactors, the staff then proceeded to SCRAM the other three reactors...

... but the thing is, there is a level of intent in this. Some people are indicating that this was to cut Ukraine's energy supply, making maintaining civil order and CnC harder.

[Solauren]

If they shut the plant down/lose it, how will it effect the power supply situation in the rest of Europe?

[Col. Crackpot]

Level of intent for sure. Urban Citizens without functioning utilities are easier to control. In theory at least.

[Broomstick]

Not sure that's going to work real well in this case. The urban dwellers in this case seem quite pissed off, stubborn, and unexpectedly effective. Although utilizing subways for bomb shelters without electric lighting could complicate things.

[Col. Crackpot]

Not sure that's going to work real well in this case. The urban dwellers in this case seem quite pissed off, stubborn, and unexpectedly effective. Although utilizing subways for bomb shelters without electric lighting could complicate things.

Yeah. Ukrainians seem willing to go full Stalingrad if need be. That’s a terrible thought.

[Solauren]

Yeah. Ukrainians seem willing to go full Stalingrad if need be. That’s a terrible thought.

And that's just with WW2 technology. With modern weapons technology, on a national scale, that's truly horrifying

[Captain Seafort]

The urban dwellers in this case seem quite pissed off, stubborn, and unexpectedly effective.

I don't see why it would be unexpected. Urban areas are notorious for soaking up armies like a sponge.

Yeah. Ukrainians seem willing to go full Stalingrad if need be. That’s a terrible thought.

What's terrible is what it says about who and what they're up against to make the Stalingrad option the best case scenario.

[Broomstick]

The urban dwellers in this case seem quite pissed off, stubborn, and unexpectedly effective.

I don't see why it would be unexpected. Urban areas are notorious for soaking up armies like a sponge

Unexpected effectiveness from resistance where a major part of the people making it up are civilian and led by a former actor rather than someone with a military background. I assume Zelenskyy is getting advice from professionals, and there are professional soldiers at work in Ukraine but their numbers are not sufficient.

[Zaune]

Yeah. Ukrainians seem willing to go full Stalingrad if need be. That’s a terrible thought.

Considering their history with Russia it's hard to blame them. The best you can say about Putin's plans for the country is that he's probably going to stop short of another Holodomor and "merely" subject them to a regime that's got all the corruption and authoritarianism of the Soviet Union but without any of the public works programs or lip-service to the idea that the state has a duty of care to its people.

[GrosseAdmiralFox]

Level of intent for sure. Urban Citizens without functioning utilities are easier to control. In theory at least.

Actually, for counter-insurgency, that's a plus, as cellphone towers require power to function and one of the biggest 'black swan' additions to insurgencies is functional cellphones and their networks.

[ray245]

Everyone needs to shut the fuck up about no-fly zone. Including Ukraine.

As much as it hurts to see civilians being bombed, NATO being directly involved helps no one. Russia nuking the world is not going to help Ukraine.

The amount of emotional-black mail about no-fly zone is pissing me off. And the sheer amount of idiots who somehow thinks being nuked is worth it to stick a middle finger at Putin.

Fuck these idiots. If you want to die, go and volunteer. Don't drag the whole human race with you.

[AniThyng]

About that, is the presumption that the NFZ will still allow Ukr drones or do they think the trade off of grounding the RU air force and also thier drones worth it?

Edit: in a fantasy world where they get a nfz, I mean

[GrosseAdmiralFox]

Everyone needs to shut the fuck up about no-fly zone. Including Ukraine.

As much as it hurts to see civilians being bombed, NATO being directly involved helps no one. Russia nuking the world is not going to help Ukraine.

The amount of emotional-black mail about no-fly zone is pissing me off. And the sheer amount of idiots who somehow thinks being nuked is worth it to stick a middle finger at Putin.

Fuck these idiots. If you want to die, go and volunteer. Don't drag the whole human race with you.

The problem is that this sort of situation (people should note that this is basically Sudetenland, but instead of no real resistance everyone and their grandma is resisting) has a historical tendency to advance to another stage. Especially since WW2 has largely gotten out of living memory.

It should also be noted that the current paradigm of the US forcing everyone to basically 'Trade, or else' (which did far more to prevent WW3 than the nukes did, I'm afraid) is badly shaken thanks to Putin and his memetic weapon games on top of humans vindicating the 'pessimist' political philosophers again and again.

[ray245]

Everyone needs to shut the fuck up about no-fly zone. Including Ukraine.

As much as it hurts to see civilians being bombed, NATO being directly involved helps no one. Russia nuking the world is not going to help Ukraine.

The amount of emotional-black mail about no-fly zone is pissing me off. And the sheer amount of idiots who somehow thinks being nuked is worth it to stick a middle finger at Putin.

Fuck these idiots. If you want to die, go and volunteer. Don't drag the whole human race with you.

The problem is that this sort of situation (people should note that this is basically Sudetenland, but instead of no real resistance everyone and their grandma is resisting) has a historical tendency to advance to another stage. Especially since WW2 has largely gotten out of living memory.

It should also be noted that the current paradigm of the US forcing everyone to basically 'Trade, or else' (which did far more to prevent WW3 than the nukes did, I'm afraid) is badly shaken thanks to Putin and his memetic weapon games on top of humans vindicating the 'pessimist' political philosophers again and again.

To be honest, judging by the abilities of the Russian army so far, I seriously doubt they have the ability to advance beyond Ukraine.

In WW2, Germany had the advantage of rearming before everyone did, so they were much more ready for war. Whereas in the current status quo, things are different. Germany might have a weaker army than they should, but most NATO states and especially the US are much better than the Russian army in almost everyway.

So Russia will lose a conventional war against NATO. Which is why what NATO are currently doing is enough. There's no need to worry Russia could advance much further.