Uk Referendum on The EU Announced for 23rd June.

[madd0ct0r]

Invading syria/iran and/or afghanistan again will be difficult without turkey's support, and Cameron has a paycheck to earn.

[Thanas]

David Mitchell wades in with a good observation.
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfre ... d-mitchell

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

David Mitchell wades in with a good observation.
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfre ... d-mitchell

As much as it is an indictment on Cameron, he's not making much of an argument for staying beyond 'I fear the unknown'.

It's almost as if he's begging for a religion, but isn't getting one.

[madd0ct0r]

Cameron has twice used referendums to undermine and collapse the opposition.

The vote reform one undermined the lib dems, and cut off risk of vote reform for a decade, cutting ukip and the greens out of the future equations.

The scottish one, by allowing it to go as close as it did, forced scottish labour to spend their political capital on it. they ended up standing on the same stage as the loathed cameron, resulting in a sinkhole in the scottish labour vote at the general election. Labour are percieved as traitors to be punished.

That landslide of mps to the scottish national party meant Cameron won a majority in the following general election. Ukip got twice as many votes as the snp, but only gained one seat to 56. See that first referendum killing vote reform.

so. Who is he destroying with this one? Possibly ukip, altough theyve survived a lot of media attention already and the true believers wont be swayed. More likely its to ruin the eurosceptic tories, expebd their energy and crush them at a popular vote they cannot argue with. Why? Without an opposition left on the outside, time to purge his allies.
Who is cameron's successor?

The only thing of note us that murdoch wants a brexit, and cameron is going agsinst his wishes. Unless they expect it to come down in murdoch's favour, terrifying though that is.

[Dartzap]

I'm coming around to the idea that since the main contenders for succession in the Tories are Boris, Gideon and Gove, who are, to be blunt, so toxic that a potato would be more viable a candidate, that the 1922 Committee are likely to swallow their own vomit and anoint Theresa May. Still terrible for different reasons, but she has been keeping herself to herself in the current bedlam.

I honestly cant think of any other higher-up Tories they might find who could keep the party together. Not that I want them to, mind.....

[Crazedwraith]

Okay, I had to google to discover Gideon meant Osborne.

[Dartzap]

Sorry, I've been reading too much Private Eye.

[mr friendly guy]

Cameron has twice used referendums to undermine and collapse the opposition.

The vote reform one undermined the lib dems, and cut off risk of vote reform for a decade, cutting ukip and the greens out of the future equations.

The scottish one, by allowing it to go as close as it did, forced scottish labour to spend their political capital on it. they ended up standing on the same stage as the loathed cameron, resulting in a sinkhole in the scottish labour vote at the general election. Labour are percieved as traitors to be punished.

That landslide of mps to the scottish national party meant Cameron won a majority in the following general election. Ukip got twice as many votes as the snp, but only gained one seat to 56. See that first referendum killing vote reform.

so. Who is he destroying with this one? Possibly ukip, altough theyve survived a lot of media attention already and the true believers wont be swayed. More likely its to ruin the eurosceptic tories, expebd their energy and crush them at a popular vote they cannot argue with. Why? Without an opposition left on the outside, time to purge his allies.
Who is cameron's successor?

The only thing of note us that murdoch wants a brexit, and cameron is going agsinst his wishes. Unless they expect it to come down in murdoch's favour, terrifying though that is.

If that's Cameron's tactic, its a damn dangerous game he is playing. It could very well go the opposite direction and end up with him resigning.

[Crazedwraith]

Well he's claimed he'll stay even if he loses. If that's actually possible with Boris sharpening the back-knives is another matter.

Been listen to the Leave/Remain. Broadcasts on Radio 4. The Leave one is actually better. Very good at emphasising it's message. But then it's easier to make 'FREEEDOM!' sound better than 'everything's basically fine as it is'. My folks took a great dislike to the cheery voice of the remain broadcast.

[Purple]

A question for all the British guys here. How is the mood now? What do you think the results will be?

[Dartzap]

Very mixed. The Out side is very loud, so it can often feel like it's a done deal. All the guys I've chatted with about it have been unsure about the outcome.

The Government are treating it like an election so have put alot of decisions or announcements back, as an unofficiall state of Purdah has been declared by the treasury, so there's not much else to talk about!

I did see the Spanish PM made an intervention today - I'm kind-but-not surprised Merkel hasn't said much yet, but I guess she has bigger fish to fry.

[LaCroix]

I think Merkel giving any advice to Britain could only be a gain for the Out vote, and Merkel isn't that stupid. She knows that she is the biggest boogie(wo)man they parade around.

[Thanas]

Given how almost the entire British tabloid press is firmly in favor of leaving, I can't see how any "advice" from Merkel would be well received.

[Thanas]

....and just as I say that, here is Merkel:

You will never get a really good result in negotiations, particularly on very important issues, when you're not in the room and giving input.

I personally hope and wish that Britain will stay part and parcel of the European Union.

We work well together with the United Kingdom, particularly perhaps when we talk about new rules for the European Union.

We have to develop those together with the United Kingdom and whenever we negotiate that, you can much better have an influence on the debate when you sit at the bargaining table and you can give input into those negotiations.

The result will invariably be better when you have that, rather than being outside of the room.

– Angela Merkel

[Tribble]

While I understand the advantages of remaining in an economic union, I fail to see why Britain needs to be in a poltical union as well. There are plenty of countries which have free trade agreements which are not joined at the hip poltically and they seem to do just fine. The only reason the EU would refuse to negotiate with the UK would be out of spite, there's nothing stopping them from actually working out a deal. IMO that would be a better option for everyone as the EU may continue its march to ever closer union without the UK interference.

[Thanas]

While I understand the advantages of remaining in an economic union, I fail to see why Britain needs to be in a poltical union as well. There are plenty of countries which have free trade agreements which are not joined at the hip poltically and they seem to do just fine. The only reason the EU would refuse to negotiate with the UK would be out of spite, there's nothing stopping them from actually working out a deal. IMO that would be a better option for everyone as the EU may continue its march to ever closer union without the UK interference.

The EU wants to take the financial market. Frankfurt and Paris have been pushing for it since a long time.

But the more interesting thing: Every nation that has the comprehensive free trade agreement the UK would want have to abide by all the UK Laws and regulations anyway. Ask the Swiss and Norway. So this woulld do nothing for Britain if they want to get rid of EU laws.

[Tribble]

While I understand the advantages of remaining in an economic union, I fail to see why Britain needs to be in a poltical union as well. There are plenty of countries which have free trade agreements which are not joined at the hip poltically and they seem to do just fine. The only reason the EU would refuse to negotiate with the UK would be out of spite, there's nothing stopping them from actually working out a deal. IMO that would be a better option for everyone as the EU may continue its march to ever closer union without the UK interference.

The EU wants to take the financial market. Frankfurt and Paris have been pushing for it since a long time.

But the more interesting thing: Every nation that has the comprehensive free trade agreement the UK would want have to abide by all the UK Laws and regulations anyway. Ask the Swiss and Norway. So this woulld do nothing for Britain if they want to get rid of EU laws.

That's not necessarily true as both Canada and the US are in the process of signing free trade agreements with the EU, and neither were required to join in a political union. Again there is nothing preventing the EU from coming to a similar arrangement except if they refused to out of spite.

There is also a pretty big difference between Norway and Switzerland, IIRC Norway is required to adopt regulations that fall under the EEA, while Switzerland negotiates treaty changes on a case by case basis. Between the two of them Switzerland is considerably more control over the process than Norway does.

[Crown]

I'm catching up on a lot of this, but sweet titty fucking is the Remain camp (ergo Project Fear) a fucking shambles. When Nigel Farrage out maneuvours you in a debate I can see why you led your party from its zenith to its nadir Mr Clegg. What moronic, idiotic and half baked arguments this prick was using. I'm an EU nation living in the UK and listening to him make a fool of himself against Farrage; I'd vote to leave!

Fucking hell.

[K. A. Pital]

That's not necessarily true as both Canada and the US are in the process of signing free trade agreements with the EU, and neither were required to join in a political union.

That shit only exists because the US used its superpower position to bully Europe into accepting its shitty standards and goods. Were it some minor nation that "trade agreement" (CETA and TTIP) wouldn't fly.

If Britain wants to degrade its standards of labour protection, environmental protection and the rest, it is free to do so outside the EU. But I sincerely hope that neither TTIP nor whatever half-assed "agreement" an out-of-Europe Britain can come up with will never ever succeed.

The agreements are not ratified, and hopefully will never be.

[Thanas]

Wolfgang Schäuble has said there will be no single market access for the EU after they vote to leave.

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/201 ... auble-says

[Crazedwraith]

Wolfgang Schäuble has said there will be no single market access for the EU after they vote to leave.

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/201 ... auble-says

If, man. If we vote to leave,

[EnterpriseSovereign]

I saw the 2hr debate on ITV last night and it was far from boring, I found it strange that someone who campaigned for Scottish independence on one hand and yet was in favour of remaining in the EU. She and the other vote remain group wasted no time in going after the lie painted on the side of Boris' Battle Bus

Julie Etchingham did a great job of maintaining order, it seemed like she was more like an air traffic controller this time around

[Zaune]

I saw the 2hr debate on ITV last night and it was far from boring, I found it strange that someone who campaigned for Scottish independence on one hand and yet was in favour of remaining in the EU.

Europe probably tends to impose fewer things the SNP is actively against (Alex Salmond is on the record as thinking Scotland needs more immigrants, for example), not to mention provides a lot of regional development funding that Scotland -and the North of England- sorely needs.

[EnterpriseSovereign]

I saw the 2hr debate on ITV last night and it was far from boring, I found it strange that someone who campaigned for Scottish independence on one hand and yet was in favour of remaining in the EU.

Europe probably tends to impose fewer things the SNP is actively against (Alex Salmond is on the record as thinking Scotland needs more immigrants, for example), not to mention provides a lot of regional development funding that Scotland -and the North of England- sorely needs.

Right enough, we see in the news a lot of English cities complaining about immigrants. Whether it's a similar story in Scotland, only the Scots can say. All I know is that in England we don't see any Scots complaining about immigrants.

[K. A. Pital]

Wolfgang Schäuble has said there will be no single market access for the EU after they vote to leave.

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/201 ... auble-says

Rightly so. Who the hell needs a second Switzerland? Enough trouble with the first one already.