Socialized healthcare debate (Split from Canadian Care)

[kojikun]

Riiiiiiiiiight

You know as well as I do that private (volunteer being a codeword for private) charity doesn't come close to what the feds can provide in welfare, medical care, and emergency assistance.

You assume that the only viable solution is a federal welfare system that we all have no choice but to pay into. You assume that the only alternative is charity.

Auto insurance as in "car"? You are allowed to drive a car without any insurance whatsoever????
Hilarious...

Ofcourse not, auto insurance is mandatory if you buy a car. But noones making me buy a car.

Keevan: You pay taxes when you work minimum wage, do you not? Thank you, your argument is now null and void, because you are paying for welfare and all that shit regardless of whether you're making $5/hour or $100/hour. Now, why can't those people do the same but in non-taxed ways? Ofcourse they can, they do it already! And this way, if they decide "no, I don't need health care right now, I'm willing to risk it for more important things" then that is their right and their choice, but they could always go back to paying into the healthcare.

You socialism nuts always think that people couldn't afford to pay for health insurance themselves, but you forget that in a socialized country, THEY ALWAYS DO AND ALWAYS MUST.

[Keevan_Colton]

Keevan: You pay taxes when you work minimum wage, do you not? Thank you, your argument is now null and void, because you are paying for welfare and all that shit regardless of whether you're making $5/hour or $100/hour. Now, why can't those people do the same but in non-taxed ways? Ofcourse they can, they do it already! And this way, if they decide "no, I don't need health care right now, I'm willing to risk it for more important things" then that is their right and their choice, but they could always go back to paying into the healthcare.

You socialism nuts always think that people couldn't afford to pay for health insurance themselves, but you forget that in a socialized country, THEY ALWAYS DO AND ALWAYS MUST.

And you libertain objectivist assholes always seem to have forgotten the entire 19th and 18th cebnturies where your system of doing things was shown to result in suffering and death for those without enough money.

Here's a hint...will a health insurance company care if you cant pay enough to meet its minimum plan? no? if it cant make a profit off you (the purpose of private companies) then you are of no use to them. The goverment when taxing people (in an intelligent system) take less from those who can afford less....and also remember the money is not vanashing from the health care aspect as PROFIT for CEO's and shareholders.....

[kojikun]

And you libertain objectivist assholes always seem to have forgotten the entire 19th and 18th cebnturies where your system of doing things was shown to result in suffering and death for those without enough money.

Except back then there was no medical insurance of any form at all, and few doctors with modern knowledge. And lets not forget that even people with all the money in the world died from the same things that the people with no money died from. Bravo, you've proved nothing.

Here's a hint...will a health insurance company care if you cant pay enough to meet its minimum plan? no? if it cant make a profit off you (the purpose of private companies) then you are of no use to them. The goverment when taxing people (in an intelligent system) take less from those who can afford less....and also remember the money is not vanashing from the health care aspect as PROFIT for CEO's and shareholders.....

No, it just goes to the bureacratic process. Again, if the population wants cheap health care in a style similar to socialised medicine, they can voluntarilly pay into it. If they want to avoid the problems you so falsely claimed were mandatory in a private company, they could make it the companies policy to provide the same things the government did. Wheres the problem? Just dissociate the healthcare system from taxes. Make it something you can check off on your tax form or something, but don't make it mandatory.

[RogueIce]

Just wondering, but as anyone done any figures on how much it would cost to run such a system, and then, scrapping what we pay for Medicaid and the rest, putting that in the new system, and then however much more it would cost, what the overall increase (decrease maybe?) in taxes paid for it would be?

And, sarcastic or not, Stravo did bring up an issue; a lot of people would probably end up losing jobs in such a system from the HMO/insurance companies and whatnot.

And does this cover prescription medications too in Canada, or are you on your own there?

[Patrick Degan]

Social Security is known to be a failure

Bullshit, actually.

and private investment always results in more money than social security ever could. A mere 14 thousand dollars, over 7 years investing time when youre 20, would get you nearly a million dollars by the time you retire. Thats plenty to live comfortably for 10 years (100k per yer). And if you continue investing your entire life, you'll have more.

Nice theory. Pity most people have these things called bills and debts to pay off on. Rather makes difficult having a spare $14,000 lying about at any one time.

BTW, you might want to check your sums. According to standard compound interest calculations (at a 5% annual rate), $14,000 only grows to $19,699.40 in seven years.

[Stravo]

How is it that we're OK paying taxes for a military to keep us safe, a fire dept to keep us alive, a police force to safegaurd our property and lives and even such esoteric things as space travel BUT you MUST draw the line at health care. No sireee I will not pay into a system that will keep us all healthy.

I don't give a shit if my money is going to Seawolf submarines but damnit I want some opf that moeny to work for me like when I get a pain in the middle of the night and I have to run to the hospital. The last thing I want to be thinking about is whether I can afford it or not.

I've seen people make some of the most irrational decisions when it comes to their health when they don't have health insurance.

[kojikun]

Bullshit, actually.

Really? You mean $500/month is plenty to live off of when you retire? Glad you think so, because thats about what you get. If you're lucky.

Nice theory. Pity most people have these things called bills and debts to pay off on. Rather makes difficult having a spare $14,000 lying about at any one time.

People seem to be able to spend plenty of money of things like television. $000/year is not alot for people with good jobs.

BTW, you might want to check your sums. According to standard compound interest calculations (at a 5% annual rate), $14,000 only grows to $19,699.40 in seven years.

You're a dumbass. I said you invest 2000/year over the course of 7 years until you reach 14000, starting when youre 20, then stop investing. when you retire ~45 years later, you would have about half a million dollars. Give or take a hundred thousand depending on the timing and portfolio.

[kojikun]

How is it that we're OK paying taxes for a military to keep us safe, a fire dept to keep us alive, a police force to safegaurd our property and lives and even such esoteric things as space travel BUT you MUST draw the line at health care. No sireee I will not pay into a system that will keep us all healthy.

I don't support taxing people for things at all, but military and police are mandatory to protect our freedom. Fire departments are trickier and I'd have to think about that. Space travel shouldnt be publicly funded, NASA is bullshit and must die. And I did nt say I wouldn't pay into the system. I said quite explicitly that if Canada's system was better than the American health insurance systems, then I support Canada's system, but I do so WILLINGLY and VOLUNTARILLY. I do not support forcing that system down peoples throats, however. If they want to not pay into it, and forego its benefits, thats their choice.

I don't give a shit if my money is going to Seawolf submarines but damnit I want some opf that moeny to work for me like when I get a pain in the middle of the night and I have to run to the hospital. The last thing I want to be thinking about is whether I can afford it or not.

Same here, which is why I would pay into the health insurance. Again, I tell you, the insurance should be voluntary.

I've seen people make some of the most irrational decisions when it comes to their health when they don't have health insurance.

Well stupid them. Tell them to get insurance then.

[Stravo]

I've seen people make some of the most irrational decisions when it comes to their health when they don't have health insurance.

Well stupid them. Tell them to get insurance then.

You think these people CHOSE to not have health insurance? These are hardworking lower middle class folks doing their best to raise a family and they have no access to health insurance through their employer. Have you looked at what it costs to get a decent health care plan for a family without the employer kicking in its share?

Its people like you who live in some dream world where people choose not to have health insurance that make this debate frustrating when someone tries to change the system. No one chooses to have his child go without dental care, health care, etc.

I find it hilarious that you think a fire dept is problematic. Let me guess you've never had a fire destroy or threaten to destroy your home.

[The Cleric]

Stravo, I think that Koji is saying that instead of paying taxes for it you should have the option of private insurance. That would free up a lot of money, enough for most people to afford it.

[Tsyroc]

Auto insurance as in "car"? You are allowed to drive a car without any insurance whatsoever????
Hilarious...

It's not legal to do so in most states these days. In fact I would have thought that at least liability insurance was required nationwide.

Here in Arizona it sometimes takes the DMV 6 months or more to go after people who've let their insurance lapse.

A dumbass chick I work didn't have any insurance on her car and then someone she loaned it to wrecked it. She was without a car for a loooong time. Nothing like having to mooch rides to work when you've got a kid to support.

Speaking of insurance. Every so often we get some dumbass around here whose house burns down and surprise, surprise they don't have any homeowner's insurance. They've lived some place all their life etc... and now everything they own is frickin' gone and they are stuck counting on the goodness of strangers and/or family to bail them out.

[kojikun]

You think these people CHOSE to not have health insurance? These are hardworking lower middle class folks doing their best to raise a family and they have no access to health insurance through their employer. Have you looked at what it costs to get a decent health care plan for a family without the employer kicking in its share?

the way you said it implied that they had no health insurance of their own choosing. But the point still remains: if Canadian style health insurance existed and was voluntary, then there would be only their choice as the problem.

Its people like you who live in some dream world where people choose not to have health insurance that make this debate frustrating when someone tries to change the system. No one chooses to have his child go without dental care, health care, etc.

If thats so, then they don't need to be forced to pay it, assuming a reasonable price. Canada's system doesn't need to be built into taxes.

I find it hilarious that you think a fire dept is problematic. Let me guess you've never had a fire destroy or threaten to destroy your home.

I didn't say it was problematic, just that it's different from health insurance and I have not been thinking about fire departments but about health insurance. The situations require different reasonings.

[Stravo]

Stravo, I think that Koji is saying that instead of paying taxes for it you should have the option of private insurance. That would free up a lot of money, enough for most people to afford it.

And what advantage would there be for the private healthcare option other than either creating:

A) An elite class that would get better health coverage because they make more
or

B) Keep HMO's in business

I don't see a difference between paying for a military that can scorch the world and healthcare that can save the family. Either one is vital to the country.

[kojikun]

And what advantage would there be for the private healthcare option other than either creating:

A) An elite class that would get better health coverage because they make more
or

B) Keep HMO's in business

I don't see a difference between paying for a military that can scorch the world and healthcare that can save the family. Either one is vital to the country.

Well, I don't support a military like the US's, I think it's bloated and useless, but a necessesity given America's tendency to piss people off for no reason.

But my idea for a health care system would be identical to canadas, except for one thing: volition. Pay for it or dont use it. Same price, same care.

[Patrick Degan]

Bullshit, actually.

Really? You mean $500/month is plenty to live off of when you retire? Glad you think so, because thats about what you get. If you're lucky.

My mother gets about $850/month from SSI. I'd love to know where you're getting your figures from, because they don't match what's on her cheque.

And in any case, Social Security is meant as a backup, not a replacement for private investment or company pension plans. It was never meant in any other way.

Nice theory. Pity most people have these things called bills and debts to pay off on. Rather makes difficult having a spare $14,000 lying about at any one time.

People seem to be able to spend plenty of money of things like television. $000/year is not alot for people with good jobs.

Let me guess; you're not even out of university yet, are you?

BTW, you might want to check your sums. According to standard compound interest calculations (at a 5% annual rate), $14,000 only grows to $19,699.40 in seven years.

You're a dumbass. I said you invest 2000/year over the course of 7 years until you reach 14000, starting when you're 20, then stop investing. when you retire ~45 years later, you would have about half a million dollars. Give or take a hundred thousand depending on the timing and portfolio.

No, you didn't specify the terms, you little shit. And I notice you've already halved that estimate on the expected return (and don't try saying you never babbled about having "almost a million dollars" just two posts ago). And I find it highly risible that you imagine every pre-20 year old will have even an extra $2000 lying about each year to build up to that $14,000 base. Doubly amusing that you blithely assume no circumstance forcing a tapping into that nest-egg at any point, or any sort of investment reversal caused either by economic downturn or, as we've just witnessed not three years ago, massive securities fraud. Nevermind the fact that apparently, taxes, inflation, and increased cost-of-living 45 years down the line hasn't affected your vision that $500K would have quite the same buying power as it does today.

Oh, and BTW, you still might want to check your sums; 45 years of compound interest on a $14,000 principal at an annual 5% rate adds up to only $125,769.41. Living at a rate of only 1/10th that per year as a retirement annuity, that nice nest-egg will be burned up in ten years.

Bad luck if you live past 76, actually.

I must ask again; you're not even out of university yet, are you?

[Hamel]

Are interest rates even close to 5% nowadays?

[Keevan_Colton]

Nice theory. Pity most people have these things called bills and debts to pay off on. Rather makes difficult having a spare $14,000 lying about at any one time.

People seem to be able to spend plenty of money of things like television. $000/year is not alot for people with good jobs.

Oh got to love this one....only people with good jobs deserve to survive then...

What about the minimum wage people from earlier, there are a lot of them after all?

[kojikun]

My mother gets about $850/month from SSI. I'd love to know where you're getting your figures from, because they don't match what's on her cheque.

And in any case, Social Security is meant as a backup, not a replacement for private investment or company pension plans. It was never meant in any other way.

Even 850/month is too little to survive, though. Electric, water, and rent combined are usually over that. Then theres food and medicine. As a backup it barely works. And people are not putting their money into retirement accounts because the EXPECT social security to help them.

Let me guess; you're not even out of university yet, are you?

Let me guess, you're dodging the point. (sorry, i left out the 2 in 2000)

No, you didn't specify the terms, you little shit. And I notice you've already halved that estimate on the expected return (and don't try saying you never babbled about having "almost a million dollars" just two posts ago).

Half a million if you stop investing after 14k. About a million if you keep investing. Don't know why I said nearly a million in the first post. Jumping ahead of myself or forgot to account for inflation. But that does not negate the fact that private investing is better then relying on social security.

And I find it highly risible that you imagine every pre-20 year old will have even an extra $2000 lying about each year to build up to that $14,000 base.

Starting when you're 20. And even before then, living with your parents while youre in school, working for minimum wage, you could save up 14k in a few years.

Doubly amusing that you blithely assume no circumstance forcing a tapping into that nest-egg at any point, or any sort of investment reversal caused either by economic downturn or, as we've just witnessed not three years ago, massive securities fraud.

Considering that no retirement account (401(k)s or IRAs) can be used until you actually retire, theres not much of a problem. And it's not like you have any alternative, as you so kindly admitted, because Social Security is not a retirement account just a backup, so I guess its tough shit for everyone.

Nevermind the fact that apparently, taxes, inflation, and increased cost-of-living 45 years down the line hasn't affected your vision that $500K would have quite the same buying power as it does today.

Actually, the 500k estimate includes inflation. Without inflation you'd get about two million, but with inflation its 500k. I also havent factored in taxes. I do not know what taxes are on retirement money.

Oh, and BTW, you still might want to check your sums; 45 years of compound interest on a $14,000 principal at an annual 5% rate adds up to only $125,769.41. Living at a rate of only 1/10th that per year as a retirement annuity, that nice nest-egg will be burned up in ten years.

What stocks are YOU investing in? The S&P500 has an average growth rate of 10%, other indices average higher (NASDAQ I believe gets 14%).

Bad luck if you live past 76, actually.

Yeah, if you use a shitty bank or something. Real retirement accounts go into stocks and bonds. They get over 5% average. Well over. Even government BONDs get 8% or so.

I must ask again; you're not even out of university yet, are you?

I must ask again, why are you making an ad hominem.

Are interest rates even close to 5% nowadays?

Not in banks, theyre pitifully low. But retirement accounts are not in banks anyway, they're in mutual funds and bonds.

Oh got to love this one....only people with good jobs deserve to survive then...

No, I was just giving an example of retirement possibilies for the vast majority of people. And that vast majority is expecting Social Security to pay for their retirement.

What about the minimum wage people from earlier, there are a lot of them after all?

If you're working minimum wage your entire life, you're a worthless person to begin with and its your own fault that you don't have money to retire. Move to Canada or something, where people are nice and like to pay for you to live, but don't presume the right to take something you have not earned.

Am I an asshole, yes, yes I am. But anyone who presumes the right to my stuff without earning it and without my consent is even worse.

[Dahak]

Well, koji, it is also a matter of believes. Most germans would tear you to tiny bits if you even considered giving up our health care system. Here the state is supposed to care for its citizens (We even call it "Father state") and protect and assist them.

[kojikun]

Well, koji, it is also a matter of believes. Most germans would tear you to tiny bits if you even considered giving up our health care system. Here the state is supposed to care for its citizens (We even call it "Father state") and protect and assist them.

I don't want anyone to give it up, I want you to have the option of not using it if you don't want to. That is all. You won't contribute to it, but you won't drain from it either.

[Dahak]

Well, koji, it is also a matter of believes. Most germans would tear you to tiny bits if you even considered giving up our health care system. Here the state is supposed to care for its citizens (We even call it "Father state") and protect and assist them.

I don't want anyone to give it up, I want you to have the option of not using it if you don't want to. That is all. You won't contribute to it, but you won't drain from it either.

That is just short-sighted. You will need it, sooner or later. And I don't think you will be able to pay for health costs with just a mere million if the shit should hit the fan, someday. Apparatus-medicine gets pretty pricy pretty fast...
I prefer to live in a society, were there is a understood responsibility for your fellow citizen and the society as a whole, as compared to such a libertarian, ultra-capitalist world, where you are all alone against the others.

[kojikun]

That is just short-sighted. You will need it, sooner or later. And I don't think you will be able to pay for health costs with just a mere million if the shit should hit the fan, someday. Apparatus-medicine gets pretty pricy pretty fast...

But thats not your choice to make for someone else. It is his alone to make and his consequences to suffer.

I prefer to live in a society, were there is a understood responsibility for your fellow citizen and the society as a whole, as compared to such a libertarian, ultra-capitalist world, where you are all alone against the others.

If it is "understood", and people VOLUNTARILLY help others, than I am NOT against it. I personally do help people when I can (not that that is very often). I do it because I want to though, not because someone is forcing me to.

[Dahak]

That is just short-sighted. You will need it, sooner or later. And I don't think you will be able to pay for health costs with just a mere million if the shit should hit the fan, someday. Apparatus-medicine gets pretty pricy pretty fast...

But thats not your choice to make for someone else. It is his alone to make and his consequences to suffer.

It's the societies choice to make, as a whole. You want to have a pure individualistic society. I think that's morally wrong, or at least questionable. [/quote]

I prefer to live in a society, were there is a understood responsibility for your fellow citizen and the society as a whole, as compared to such a libertarian, ultra-capitalist world, where you are all alone against the others.

If it is "understood", and people VOLUNTARILLY help others, than I am NOT against it. I personally do help people when I can (not that that is very often). I do it because I want to though, not because someone is forcing me to.[/quote]
No one is forcing us to have the health system we have, yet everyone wants it, because it offers the best protection for all the people in the society.

[kojikun]

It's the societies choice to make, as a whole. You want to have a pure individualistic society. I think that's morally wrong, or at least questionable.

How can it be "morally wrong" when you advocate forcing people to do things, and punishing them for commiting no crimes against others while an individualist society lets people choose their futures and does not punish them for that which they have not done.

No one is forcing us to have the health system we have, yet everyone wants it, because it offers the best protection for all the people in the society.

If noones forcing you then noone has to pay for it. But I don't think that is the case, is it..

[Keevan_Colton]

If you're working minimum wage your entire life, you're a worthless person to begin with and its your own fault that you don't have money to retire. Move to Canada or something, where people are nice and like to pay for you to live, but don't presume the right to take something you have not earned.

Am I an asshole, yes, yes I am. But anyone who presumes the right to my stuff without earning it and without my consent is even worse.

You really are a horrid little fuck arent you Ebenezer?

You're little objectivist bullshit is against any form of altruism, its a morally bankrupt, much as you are proving to be in this.

Do the people working for McD's deserve to die in old age?
Do people who loose thier jobs deserve to starve to death?
What if they have children to support?
Do the poor deserve to die of cancer more than the rich?

Basically your moral system is fuck everybody, so long as I'm okay.

Well fuck you, may you starve to death in the gutter one day in your ideal world, you're on par with the eugenics nazi bastards, you just take a different tac, rather than "initating force" (because no Randite would ever do that ), just have a society where the "worthless" simply expire thanks to the way the system works....