Socialized healthcare debate (Split from Canadian Care)

kojikun · Post by **kojikun** » 2003-12-30 12:39am

I would rather deal with the American system then have my money taken from me for something I do not need.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2003-12-30 12:45am

kojikun wrote:I would rather deal with the American system then have my money taken from me for something I do not need.

Hey look, it's an invincible human who is 100% sure that he will never suffer an injury and never develop a serious illness! That is quite remarkable, young man. How did you develop this fantastic power of total invincibility? I take it you do not ever plan to get auto collision or liability insurance either, since you will never have a car accident?

TrailerParkJawa · Post by **TrailerParkJawa** » 2003-12-30 01:21am

kojikun wrote:I would rather deal with the American system then have my money taken from me for something I do not need.

Buy a home, have a child, lose your job, or all of the above. Then come back and try talking tuff after you realize you could be finanically broken for the rest of your life by accident or illness.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2003-12-30 01:39am

TrailerParkJawa wrote:
kojikun wrote:I would rather deal with the American system then have my money taken from me for something I do not need.
Buy a home, have a child, lose your job, or all of the above. Then come back and try talking tuff after you realize you could be finanically broken for the rest of your life by accident or illness.

Luckily for Kojikun, he is apparently invincible, hence immune to injury or illness. I can't see what other reason he would have for declaring that he does not need any kind of health insurance, unless he's just an idiot.

Post by **RogueIce** » 2003-12-30 02:05am

Darth Wong wrote:
kojikun wrote:I would rather deal with the American system then have my money taken from me for something I do not need.
Hey look, it's an invincible human who is 100% sure that he will never suffer an injury and never develop a serious illness! That is quite remarkable, young man. How did you develop this fantastic power of total invincibility? I take it you do not ever plan to get auto collision or liability insurance either, since you will never have a car accident?

*shrugs*

I almost made it. But then I went to a quick little hospital trip because of some damn ticks that, we being city-dwellers, we couldn't deal with (amusingly enough, neither could that "help" line we called). And, since it was late at night, it was the only option we had. But I'm sure insurance got it, and even if not, I got a cool neon green bandaid.

And, like WP said, soon, very soon now, the US Military will take care of all my medical and dental needs for the rest of my life...

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2003-12-30 02:09am

RogueIce wrote:And, like WP said, soon, very soon now, the US Military will take care of all my medical and dental needs for the rest of my life...

That's paid for with tax dollars. So how is that any different from socialized medicine, except for the fact that it's not universal, hardly a selling point?

Xenophobe3691 · Post by **Xenophobe3691** » 2003-12-30 02:36am

kojikun wrote:I would rather deal with the American system then have my money taken from me for something I do not need.

What the fuck is wrong with you?!? The American system craps on doctors and patients alike!!! You wanna talk with someone who knows the system from the inside, talk to my dad or my mom, they'll help your naive ass out...

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2003-12-30 02:43am

Xenophobe3691 wrote:
kojikun wrote:I would rather deal with the American system then have my money taken from me for something I do not need.
What the fuck is wrong with you?!? The American system craps on doctors and patients alike!!! You wanna talk with someone who knows the system from the inside, talk to my dad or my mom, they'll help your naive ass out...

Actually, if you examine his statement carefully, he is basically admitting that the American system is great as long as you don't need to use it

Post by **RogueIce** » 2003-12-30 03:10am

Darth Wong wrote:
RogueIce wrote:And, like WP said, soon, very soon now, the US Military will take care of all my medical and dental needs for the rest of my life...
That's paid for with tax dollars. So how is that any different from socialized medicine, except for the fact that it's not universal, hardly a selling point?

Because I'll end up having to risk my life by potentially being sent to a combat zone or just doing a job that's inherently risky to use it?

*shrugs* So long as it works, I don't see the problem with it myself (being universal), I was just pointing out that I'll get the same benefits as you regardless, despite the added risk I need to take to get it in the first place.

So, yeah, what is some people's problem with it anyway, besides the fact it has the word "socialist" associated with it?

Dahak · Post by **Dahak** » 2003-12-30 07:39am

I prefer a socialized health care system any day, thank you very much.
Just the thought of paying for every damned visit to a doctor...
Though our system is a bit different from the Canadian it seems. I just don't see any appeal to the American system, at all...

kojikun · Post by **kojikun** » 2003-12-30 12:41pm

Darth Wong wrote:Hey look, it's an invincible human who is 100% sure that he will never suffer an injury and never develop a serious illness! That is quite remarkable, young man. How did you develop this fantastic power of total invincibility? I take it you do not ever plan to get auto collision or liability insurance either, since you will never have a car accident?

Actually, quite the contrary. I intend to put aside money for medical care on my own. Though I will still need to look at the costs.

As for auto insurance, etc. that I will get, because it is in my best interest to do so and is entirely voluntary. I just do not like being forced to pay for something, want it or not. If it turns out that Canadian healthcare taxes are less costly than other options, then that is definitely good for Canada in my eyes. I don't know yet, but I am wary of taxes for health care.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2003-12-30 12:47pm

kojikun wrote:
Darth Wong wrote:Hey look, it's an invincible human who is 100% sure that he will never suffer an injury and never develop a serious illness! That is quite remarkable, young man. How did you develop this fantastic power of total invincibility? I take it you do not ever plan to get auto collision or liability insurance either, since you will never have a car accident?
Actually, quite the contrary. I intend to put aside money for medical care on my own. Though I will still need to look at the costs.

Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha!!!!!

One serious injury or serious illness could easily wipe out all of your life savings in an instant just for starters, dumb-ass. Or do you simply assume you're going to reach Bill Gates-level wealth?

As for auto insurance, etc. that I will get, because it is in my best interest to do so and is entirely voluntary. I just do not like being forced to pay for something, want it or not.

You pay taxes for your military, for your roads, for your police, for your fire department, etc., do you not?

If it turns out that Canadian healthcare taxes are less costly than other options, then that is definitely good for Canada in my eyes. I don't know yet, but I am wary of taxes for health care.

Even though you have obviously done no research at all into the subject

kojikun · Post by **kojikun** » 2003-12-30 01:05pm

Darth Wong wrote:One serious injury or serious illness could easily wipe out all of your life savings in an instant just for starters, dumb-ass. Or do you simply assume you're going to reach Bill Gates-level wealth?

Yeah, that is true. It would be hard to privately insure against something major.

You pay taxes for your military, for your roads, for your police, for your fire department, etc., do you not?

All military and police are necessary to protect my rights, however. But I see what you're saying.

Even though you have obviously done no research at all into the subject

Bah. It's never really been much of an issue. I haven't had to think about it terribly much, so I went with what I knew at the time of posting.

Keevan_Colton · Post by **Keevan_Colton** » 2003-12-30 01:19pm

kojikun wrote:
You pay taxes for your military, for your roads, for your police, for your fire department, etc., do you not?
All military and police are necessary to protect my rights, however. But I see what you're saying.

Just remember what that great american mantra starts with...

"Life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness"

And theres a damn good reason for the order, loose the first one and the other two are entirely unattainable.....

kojikun · Post by **kojikun** » 2003-12-30 01:23pm

Keevan_Colton wrote:Just remember what that great american mantra starts with...

"Life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness"

And theres a damn good reason for the order, loose the first one and the other two are entirely unattainable.....

Yeah, but it's not life by forcing others to keep you alive. When they say life, they mean everyone has the right to be secure from people coming and killing them. They don't mean that we're obligated to sacrifice of ourselves to keep people alive.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2003-12-30 01:33pm

And Kojikun demonstrates once more why one-dimensional rights-based ethical systems don't work.

You can say it a million times: BALANCE rights against other ethical concerns. But people who have been raised to think of ethics exclusively in terms of individual rights never get it until they grow up a little.

Keevan_Colton · Post by **Keevan_Colton** » 2003-12-30 01:33pm

kojikun wrote:
Keevan_Colton wrote:Just remember what that great american mantra starts with...

"Life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness"

And theres a damn good reason for the order, loose the first one and the other two are entirely unattainable.....
Yeah, but it's not life by forcing others to keep you alive. When they say life, they mean everyone has the right to be secure from people coming and killing them. They don't mean that we're obligated to sacrifice of ourselves to keep people alive.

So, you've the right to be secure from someone taking whats yours, but if you need something, you've the right to go curl up some place and die too....that sounds delightfully morally bankrupt to me.

What about people who have cancer?
Do they deserve to die if they havent the money to pay for treatment Ebenezer?

Stravo · Post by **Stravo** » 2003-12-30 01:38pm

Shame on you!! You people aren't thinking about the poor HMO workers and their executives, Where will they go in this brave new world you are proposing?? NO. For the sake of their lives and economic futures as well as their children's, we MUST not give into the temptaion of a sensible government run healthcare network. Besides we all know privately run is always better than publicaly administered - right?

kojikun · Post by **kojikun** » 2003-12-30 01:38pm

Keevan_Colton wrote:So, you've the right to be secure from someone taking whats yours, but if you need something, you've the right to go curl up some place and die too....that sounds delightfully morally bankrupt to me.

I never said you should just curl up and die. But I shouldn't be forced to pay for you. It is not as if you wouldn't get help, quite the contrary. There would be plenty of ways to get help. The Canadian medical insurances does not need to be mandatory. If it were voluntary, with the same results, then thats good. But it shouldn't be built into taxes.

What about people who have cancer?
Do they deserve to die if they havent the money to pay for treatment Ebenezer?

See above. I'm not advocating leaving people to die if they can't pay, what I'm advocating is voluntary help. Agreements among people, not something forced on them by government. I would voluntarilly pay for medical insurance like that in Canada, which is why I would pay the tax, but I would not insist that others pay it for my sake.

Hamel · Post by **Hamel** » 2003-12-30 01:39pm

So, you've the right to be secure from someone taking whats yours, but if you need something, you've the right to go curl up some place and die too....that sounds delightfully morally bankrupt to me.

What about people who have cancer?
Do they deserve to die if they havent the money to pay for treatment Ebenezer?

Most rabid anti-socialist kooks will tell you that you should've have planned ahead for that by saving up your money. They use the same argument against social security when it comes to retirement.

kojikun · Post by **kojikun** » 2003-12-30 01:43pm

Hamel wrote:Most rabid anti-socialist kooks will tell you that you should've have planned ahead for that by saving up your money.

Mike demonstrated in infeasibility of that. But it is entirely ok to have medical insurance, so long as its voluntary.

They use the same argument against social security when it comes to retirement.

Now this is true. Social Security is known to be a failure, and private investment always results in more money than social security ever could. A mere 14 thousand dollars, over 7 years investing time when youre 20, would get you nearly a million dollars by the time you retire. Thats plenty to live comfortably for 10 years (100k per yer). And if you continue investing your entire life, you'll have more.

Hamel · Post by **Hamel** » 2003-12-30 01:47pm

kojikun wrote:
I never said you should just curl up and die. But I shouldn't be forced to pay for you. It is not as if you wouldn't get help, quite the contrary. There would be plenty of ways to get help. The Canadian medical insurances does not need to be mandatory. If it were voluntary, with the same results, then thats good. But it shouldn't be built into taxes.

----------------------

See above. I'm not advocating leaving people to die if they can't pay, what I'm advocating is voluntary help. Agreements among people, not something forced on them by government. I would voluntarilly pay for medical insurance like that in Canada, which is why I would pay the tax, but I would not insist that others pay it for my sake.

Riiiiiiiiiight

You know as well as I do that private (volunteer being a codeword for private) charity doesn't come close to what the feds can provide in welfare, medical care, and emergency assistance.

Dahak · Post by **Dahak** » 2003-12-30 01:58pm

kojikun wrote:
Darth Wong wrote:Hey look, it's an invincible human who is 100% sure that he will never suffer an injury and never develop a serious illness! That is quite remarkable, young man. How did you develop this fantastic power of total invincibility? I take it you do not ever plan to get auto collision or liability insurance either, since you will never have a car accident?
As for auto insurance, etc. that I will get, because it is in my best interest to do so and is entirely voluntary.

Auto insurance as in "car"? You are allowed to drive a car without any insurance whatsoever????
Hilarious...

Keevan_Colton · Post by **Keevan_Colton** » 2003-12-30 01:59pm

Ah such wonderful notions...

"Are there no prisons? Are there no poorhouses?"

Historically, we've had "volunteer" systems, know what they did?
Fucked over the people in greatest need.

Lets say you are stuck in a minimum wage job, not a terribly unlikely scenario in this world....lets say you have rent to pay...now, lets add food bills, transport costs to and from work, clothing, and lets say, you did try to get some further education, so lets add a debt from that....now....your 14k over 7 years idea needs an average of 2k a year....plus, then under the world you seem to like the idea of, you still have your own private health care and all your insurance, plus your taxes for your military (funny how you're willing to pay communally to kill people via the goverenment, but not to heal them, anyway) how much money will all that come to....here's just a rough guess a fuckload more than minimum wage....

Dahak · Post by **Dahak** » 2003-12-30 02:06pm

We don't pay a tax, but every citzizen has to be health insured, compulsory, with the rates currently ranging between 12 and 14% of your monthly income (Though your employers pays 50% of it).
There are two kinds of insurance companies, the private ones and the "compulsory health insurance" ones. You can go into a private health insurance if you have an income above a certain (quite high) limit.
YOu won't get a job without a health insurance.

On a whole, Germany pays about 10% of it's GDP for health insurance, for a total of 215 billions (~2700 Euros per citizen).