Doom Star vs. Death Star

[Connor MacLeod]

I see three problems with MOO2 being discussed here:

1) A MOO2 BDZ does not destroy a planets eco-system, yet it kills every single inhabitant without exception (including underwater and subterranian life). These two facts seem to be difficult to resolve. Oh and orbital bombardment doesn't help because I can shoot a planet from extremely far away in the battle mode (not bombardment) and still kill all inhabitants and destroy every building. Bombardment is not the only way to depopulate a planet.

Mysterious chain reaction or biological warfare. Either way, its not DET.

2) A Black Hole Generator does not create a real black hole because a real black hole would destroy the craft instantly. It is of course possible that the effect simply takes time to create the black hole (hence the three turn delay). As for the realism of it, I suggest we do not dwell on such matters.

Then get the out of debates if you don't want to apply suspension of disbelief.

3) The Stellar Converter must be a chain reaction weapon. Two problems with this. The first is that it is described by the tech document as merely an extremely powerful plasma weapon. Second, if it is a chain reaction, why can it be used for standard bombardment without planetary disruption?

1.) The designers of the game apparently also think you can turn a planet into asteroid fields. Just because they don't mention a "neat technobabble weapons effect" does not mean it doesnt exist.

2.) Having a secondary effect (yhour "chain reaction") does not invalidate having an energy discharge. Besides which, by your own words, planetary bombardments are bizarre as well. If anything, that suggests an odd effect even more

[The Kernel]

Mysterious chain reaction or biological warfare. Either way, its not DET.

Well it isn't biological (there are seperate weapons for that) and EVERY weapon in the game behaves like this. Are you suggesting they are ALL chain reaction weapons? The lasers, nuclear bombs, everything?

Then get the out of debates if you don't want to apply suspension of disbelief.

Huh? My theory doesn't violate suspension of disbelief. If anything yours does. You suggested that it isn't really a black hole, despite the fact that the in-game tech screen specifically says it creates a black hole. I suggested that we don't dwell on the technobabble behind it since that doesn't lead anywhere (it's like trying to explain warp drive).

1.) The designers of the game apparently also think you can turn a planet into asteroid fields. Just because they don't mention a "neat technobabble weapons effect" does not mean it doesnt exist.

What does turning a planet into asteroids have anything to do with this? The Death Star did the same to Alderan right? So how does that prove it is a chain reaction weapon? Also, please address my point about the chain reaction not working other times (when the Stellar Converter was being used as a tactical weapon).

2.) Having a secondary effect (yhour "chain reaction") does not invalidate having an energy discharge. Besides which, by your own words, planetary bombardments are bizarre as well. If anything, that suggests an odd effect even more

They are bizarre for every single weapon in the game. That is not proof of chain reaction weapons.

[HRogge]

MIRV warhead mean that they have the independent ability to release and target, it doesn't preclude multiple cores per warhead.

I remember that MIRV warheads of MoO2 just did 4 times damage to a single target.

[The Kernel]

MIRV warhead mean that they have the independent ability to release and target, it doesn't preclude multiple cores per warhead.

I remember that MIRV warheads of MoO2 just did 4 times damage to a single target.

Okay, then that means it is a 4 MIRV missile. So what?

[HRogge]

MIRV warhead mean that they have the independent ability to release and target, it doesn't preclude multiple cores per warhead.

I remember that MIRV warheads of MoO2 just did 4 times damage to a single target.

Okay, then that means it is a 4 MIRV missile. So what?

So the MIRV tech is the ability to pack 4 warheads into the missile... which is an evidence that a standard missile only carries a single warhead.

[The Kernel]

So the MIRV tech is the ability to pack 4 warheads into the missile... which is an evidence that a standard missile only carries a single warhead.

*sigh*, no that is not. MIRV stands for (Sea Skimmer will kill me if I get this wrong) Multiple Independent Reentry Vehicle. What that means is that the master missile splits into independent missiles that can self-target and propel themselves. It has nothing to do with the warheads. I thought you wanted to leave this issue alone anyways.

[The Kernel]

Here, I'll simplify this for anyone who still cares. Show me how a Death Star could defeat a Doom Star that carries:

A) Time Warp Facilitator
B) Phased Cloak
C) Black Hole Generator

That's all that is needed to destroy ANY lone ship.

[HRogge]

Here, I'll simplify this for anyone who still cares. Show me how a Death Star could defeat a Doom Star that carries:

A) Time Warp Facilitator
B) Phased Cloak
C) Black Hole Generator

That's all that is needed to destroy ANY lone ship.

Wait until the attacking ship dephase the first time... BLAST IT at once...

[The Kernel]

Wait until the attacking ship dephase the first time... BLAST IT at once...

With the dual advantage of having the Time Warp Facilitator AND the secrecy of the cloak? Not likely.

[HRogge]

Wait until the attacking ship dephase the first time... BLAST IT at once...

With the dual advantage of having the Time Warp Facilitator AND the secrecy of the cloak? Not likely.

the Time Warp Facilitator does not help if you don't survive the first volley of your opponent.

[The Kernel]

the Time Warp Facilitator does not help if you don't survive the first volley of your opponent.

Excuse me? It gives the initiative in EVERY battle in MOO2. And the Empire has no way to counter it.

[The Kernel]

At the very least the Death Star can't get a win in this scenario. Pack a Doom Star with Quantum Detonators and a Phase Cloak and has it materialize inside the reactor. BOOM, no more Death Star.

[HRogge]

the Time Warp Facilitator does not help if you don't survive the first volley of your opponent.

Excuse me? It gives the initiative in EVERY battle in MOO2. And the Empire has no way to counter it.

Unfortunately true combat doesn't work in turns.

[HRogge]

At the very least the Death Star can't get a win in this scenario. Pack a Doom Star with Quantum Detonators and a Phase Cloak and has it materialize inside the reactor. BOOM, no more Death Star.

nice idea... but unfortunately the MoO2 phasing cloak cannot penetrate matter ( you cannot fly THROUGH ships/planets/asteroids ).

[The Kernel]

Unfortunately true combat doesn't work in turns.

I'm aware of that. Still, it does give initative, which means translated into the real world it does some technobable by which the ship using it has time compressed so that they can fire their weapons first. This is how it is described in the tech descriptions. Besides, the cloak gives them the element of surprise anyways.

[The Kernel]

[quote="HRogge"]
nice idea... but unfortunately the MoO2 phasing cloak cannot penetrate matter ( you cannot fly THROUGH ships/planets/asteroids ).[/quote

Or it just doesn't let you do that for saftey reasons. If a missile is shot at phase-cloaked ship, it passes right through.

[HRogge]

Unfortunately true combat doesn't work in turns.

I'm aware of that. Still, it does give initative, which means translated into the real world it does some technobable by which the ship using it has time compressed so that they can fire their weapons first.

these absolute statements don't need to be true outside the MoO2 setting. The TWF makes your ship the fastest ship in the MoO2 setting, but that doesn't mean it would beat anything from any universe.

This is how it is described in the tech descriptions. Besides, the cloak gives them the element of surprise anyways.

You gave an answer to this in you second posting yourself:

Or it just doesn't let you do that for saftey reasons. If a missile is shot at phase-cloaked ship, it passes right through.

You said yourself that missiles can target a phasecloaked ship... if a missile can track ( but not hit ) a phasecloaked ship, the Death Star will be able to do this too.

Do you have ANY evidence that the phasing cloak allows you to penetrate the energy shield around the Death Star AND solid matter ( like the armored hull of the Death Star ) ?

[The Kernel]

these absolute statements don't need to be true outside the MoO2 setting. The TWF makes your ship the fastest ship in the MoO2 setting, but that doesn't mean it would beat anything from any universe.

Does the Empire have something comparable to conteract it?

You gave an answer to this in you second posting yourself:

Or it just doesn't let you do that for saftey reasons. If a missile is shot at phase-cloaked ship, it passes right through.

You said yourself that missiles can target a phasecloaked ship... if a missile can track ( but not hit ) a phasecloaked ship, the Death Star will be able to do this too.

Wrong. Phase-cloaked ships can't be targeted in MOO2. I was referring to firing on a visible ship directly behind it. Try it sometime.

Do you have ANY evidence that the phasing cloak allows you to penetrate the energy shield around the Death Star AND solid matter ( like the armored hull of the Death Star ) ?

Do you have any evidence that it wouldn't? Missiles (even shielded ones--yes this is an option in MOO2) pass right through. You're going to have to provide some evidence to disprove that.

[HRogge]

Wrong. Phase-cloaked ships can't be targeted in MOO2. I was referring to firing on a visible ship directly behind it. Try it sometime.

Do you have ANY evidence that the phasing cloak allows you to penetrate the energy shield around the Death Star AND solid matter ( like the armored hull of the Death Star ) ?

Do you have any evidence that it wouldn't? Missiles (even shielded ones--yes this is an option in MOO2) pass right through. You're going to have to provide some evidence to disprove that.

The missiles will just MISS the phasecloaked ship... if they cannot target or even see the ship they will most likely just hit empty space near the ship.

The "I fly into the other ship tactic" seems to be impossible in MoO2, so why it should work against the DS ?

[The Kernel]

The missiles will just MISS the phasecloaked ship... if they cannot target or even see the ship they will most likely just hit empty space near the ship.

The "I fly into the other ship tactic" seems to be impossible in MoO2, so why it should work against the DS ?

Because if the ship's mass isn't even in the universe (as is described in the technical doc on the Phase Cloak) why wouldn't objects pass right through?

I noticed that you dropped your claims against the Phase Cloak/Time Warp Facilitator/Black Hole Generator plan. Does that mean that you conceed that my main plan will work just fine?

[HRogge]

The missiles will just MISS the phasecloaked ship... if they cannot target or even see the ship they will most likely just hit empty space near the ship.

The "I fly into the other ship tactic" seems to be impossible in MoO2, so why it should work against the DS ?

Because if the ship's mass isn't even in the universe (as is described in the technical doc on the Phase Cloak) why wouldn't objects pass right through?

If this is possible, why can't you fly into a planet, through asteroids or into other ships ?

I noticed that you dropped your claims against the Phase Cloak/Time Warp Facilitator/Black Hole Generator plan. Does that mean that you conceed that my main plan will work just fine?

I said it long ago... it doesn't matter if you get off the first shot, the DS will just fire a moment later when you are still working on getting the phasing cloak active.
The cheat does only work when you fight turn based.

[The Kernel]

I said it long ago... it doesn't matter if you get off the first shot, the DS will just fire a moment later when you are still working on getting the phasing cloak active.
The cheat does only work when you fight turn based.

Then let's add a Subspace Teleporter to the list of goodies on the Doom Star.

Anyways, don't you think that the shields would hold against sporadic turbolaser fire long enough for either recloaking or teleporting out of range? You are so quick to dismiss the fact that a Doom Star in MOO2 can do that before being fired upon without realizing that the turn based system is a mere representation of reality. If the Time Warp Facilitator gives an advatage that allows a ship to fire, then recloak, we can't simply dismiss that to game mechanics (especially when our only source is a game).

Besides, your entire defense hinges on defeating the Doom Star with a single volley from sporadic turbolaser fire. Do I need to include all the ECM, Hard Shields, Damper Field, etc in my plan as well? I doubt very much that you are going to be able to prove that the Death Star, caught utterly by surprise, is going to be able to concentrate much fire on a ship that posses time compression technology before it is able to recloak.

[HRogge]

Anyways, don't you think that the shields would hold against sporadic turbolaser fire long enough for either recloaking or teleporting out of range? You are so quick to dismiss the fact that a Doom Star in MOO2 can do that before being fired upon without realizing that the turn based system is a mere representation of reality. If the Time Warp Facilitator gives an advatage that allows a ship to fire, then recloak, we can't simply dismiss that to game mechanics (especially when our only source is a game).

The problem is that the TWF won't work in reality... let's try to see how a fight against a TWF ship would work in real time.

You see TWO versions of the ship at the same time, both are real because the ship has a limited time travel ability. The second of these two ships is in the process of cloaking, the first one is firing...

that's what you have through the WHOLE combat... one ship is decloaked, one is cloaked ( or "one is decloaking, one is cloaking" ), so you ALWAYS have a target to fire at.

Besides, your entire defense hinges on defeating the Doom Star with a single volley from sporadic turbolaser fire. Do I need to include all the ECM, Hard Shields, Damper Field, etc in my plan as well? I doubt very much that you are going to be able to prove that the Death Star, caught utterly by surprise, is going to be able to concentrate much fire on a ship that posses time compression technology before it is able to recloak.

a TWF is no "time compression technology", it's a time travel device.
and I never had a doomstar with damper field and hard shields

with the tiny amount of firepower MoO2 ships have ( don't being able to create a nuclear winter on a planet ), the DS will just ignore the fire of the ship. Maybe the antigrav systems of the DS will even just cancel out the field of the blackhole-projector.

[The Kernel]

The problem is that the TWF won't work in reality... let's try to see how a fight against a TWF ship would work in real time.

You see TWO versions of the ship at the same time, both are real because the ship has a limited time travel ability. The second of these two ships is in the process of cloaking, the first one is firing...

that's what you have through the WHOLE combat... one ship is decloaked, one is cloaked ( or "one is decloaking, one is cloaking" ), so you ALWAYS have a target to fire at.

The problem is, with suspension of disbelief and all, we have to assume it DOES work in reality. That's how we do these debates without resorting to madness

Anyways, how do you know it is a time travel ability? I'd always thought that it creates a pocket around the ship in which time is slowed down so that actions can be taken faster. That seems to make the most sense (and it spells DOOM for the Death Star).

with the tiny amount of firepower MoO2 ships have ( don't being able to create a nuclear winter on a planet ), the DS will just ignore the fire of the ship.

We've been through that. It doesn't make sense that they could depopulate a planet completely in one volley yet not destroy the ecosystem at the same time. I'm afraid this is just something we have to accept. It can't really affect firepower estimates since these two facts are mutually exclusive (yet they happen).

Maybe the antigrav systems of the DS will even just cancel out the field of the blackhole-projector.

You're kidding right? This is groundless supposition on your part and in no one correspondes with any know facts.

Anyways, a thought occurs. As I recall, if the ship that fires a Black Hole Generator is destroyed, the target dies anyways. If this is the case, the absolute best you could hope for is MAD.

[Bertie Wooster]

Anyways, a thought occurs. As I recall, if the ship that fires a Black Hole Generator is destroyed, the target dies anyways. If this is the case, the absolute best you could hope for is MAD.

Thats not true. If the ship utilizing the black hole generator is destroyed, the "black hole effect" dissappears and the ship targeted by the black hole is no longer immobile.