The Walls Come Down: No Travel Betwen US and Europe for 30 Days

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Re: The Walls Come Down: No Travel Betwen US and Europe for 30 Days

Post by Broomstick » 2020-03-27 07:24am

loomer wrote:
2020-03-27 05:54am
One is access to healthcare in remote communities, reservations, and so on, which is usually significantly lower than it is in Settler communities.
While I will not dispute your points on the greater vulnerability and risks groups in Native communities in the US, at least, I very much dispute this assertion. Rural "settler" communities are every bit as deprived in the US as Native communities because there is not profit in serving rural/wilderness areas. It is a fundamentally different situation than in Australia or Canada where there is at least in theory universal health coverage. That simply does not exist in the US. For non-Natives in such places there is often no clinic, much less a hospital, and having to travel hundreds of miles even to see a nurse or doctor is commonplace.
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Re: The Walls Come Down: No Travel Betwen US and Europe for 30 Days

Post by Broomstick » 2020-03-27 07:31am

loomer wrote:
2020-03-27 05:23am
I'd like you to answer my questions rather than doing this thing where you ignore them in favour of this 'well, there are no good answers' equivocating.
I'm sorry - I though I made it clear that I am performing mandatory overtime, 10+ hour workdays, six days a week. I do not have the time right now for multi-page compositions with detailed research. I realize you have zero respect for anything I do and indeed you have demonstrated nothing but contempt and derision for what I do for a living but it still remains that my community has called for me to work my ass off nearly every damn day.

If my coworkers keep getting sick at the rate they are I won't be getting any days off at all until I fall sick with covid.

If that bothers you too damn bad.
loomer wrote:
2020-03-27 05:23am
If you think my position is monstrous or immoral, as you have made clear with your insertion of an imagined 'colonial occupiers' element and your attempt to equate it to a casual indifference to the deaths of the vulnerable, then be prepared to show why - or, if you'd prefer not to, drop it and stop wading in when I post a comment about wanting to see improved prioritization for Indigenous peoples at higher risk during this crisis. It's getting old, and I'd prefer to be able to post news about the issue without wondering if you're going to come take a swing.
Again - the Natives in this country are being treated no worse - and no better - than the States. What more do you want or expect?

Or do you seriously expect 99% of the people living in the US to prioritize 1% over everyone else? Wall Street is trying that game, too, and not getting much traction even if they have far more power to impose their will over everyone else.

There is not enough to go around. Do you advocate saving some people based on culture rather than some other criteria? What exactly do you want or expect to happen?
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Now I did a job. I got nothing but trouble since I did it, not to mention more than a few unkind words as regard to my character so let me make this abundantly clear. I do the job. And then I get paid.- Malcolm Reynolds, Captain of Serenity, which sums up my feelings regarding the lawsuit discussed here.

If a free society cannot help the many who are poor, it cannot save the few who are rich. - John F. Kennedy

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Re: The Walls Come Down: No Travel Betwen US and Europe for 30 Days

Post by Reaver225 » 2020-03-27 07:34am

Boris Johnson has tested positive for Coronavirus. Reports are still being written up at the moment.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-52060791

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Re: The Walls Come Down: No Travel Betwen US and Europe for 30 Days

Post by loomer » 2020-03-27 07:37am

Broomstick wrote:
2020-03-27 07:24am
loomer wrote:
2020-03-27 05:54am
One is access to healthcare in remote communities, reservations, and so on, which is usually significantly lower than it is in Settler communities.
While I will not dispute your points on the greater vulnerability and risks groups in Native communities in the US, at least, I very much dispute this assertion. Rural "settler" communities are every bit as deprived in the US as Native communities because there is not profit in serving rural/wilderness areas. It is a fundamentally different situation than in Australia or Canada where there is at least in theory universal health coverage. That simply does not exist in the US. For non-Natives in such places there is often no clinic, much less a hospital, and having to travel hundreds of miles even to see a nurse or doctor is commonplace.
Settler communities includes all settler communities, Broomstick, not just remote and rural ones. Also - if you think our healthcare system is such that we don't have vastly underserviced rural areas, you're dreaming. That being said, I understand that situation applies in America as well, but I also note that many reservations and other remote and rural Native American communities are worse off in many metrics, including healthcare access, than even poor rural settler communities.
Broomstick wrote:
2020-03-27 07:31am
loomer wrote:
2020-03-27 05:23am
I'd like you to answer my questions rather than doing this thing where you ignore them in favour of this 'well, there are no good answers' equivocating.
I'm sorry - I though I made it clear that I am performing mandatory overtime, 10+ hour workdays, six days a week. I do not have the time right now for multi-page compositions with detailed research. I realize you have zero respect for anything I do and indeed you have demonstrated nothing but contempt and derision for what I do for a living but it still remains that my community has called for me to work my ass off nearly every damn day.

If my coworkers keep getting sick at the rate they are I won't be getting any days off at all until I fall sick with covid.

If that bothers you too damn bad.
I understand you're working hard. But no one is holding a gun to your head and making you decide to come and take a swing. If you aren't willing to fully commit to a conversation rather than posting your equivocations, then I have no further interest in the discussion.

loomer wrote:
2020-03-27 05:23am
If you think my position is monstrous or immoral, as you have made clear with your insertion of an imagined 'colonial occupiers' element and your attempt to equate it to a casual indifference to the deaths of the vulnerable, then be prepared to show why - or, if you'd prefer not to, drop it and stop wading in when I post a comment about wanting to see improved prioritization for Indigenous peoples at higher risk during this crisis. It's getting old, and I'd prefer to be able to post news about the issue without wondering if you're going to come take a swing.
Again - the Natives in this country are being treated no worse - and no better - than the States. What more do you want or expect?

Or do you seriously expect 99% of the people living in the US to prioritize 1% over everyone else? Wall Street is trying that game, too, and not getting much traction even if they have far more power to impose their will over everyone else.

There is not enough to go around. Do you advocate saving some people based on culture rather than some other criteria? What exactly do you want or expect to happen?
Unless you're prepared to answer the questions I asked you, I see no point - and certainly feel no obligation - to answering yours. I have already explained the rationale for prioritizing Indigenous healthcare during the pandemic.
Reaver225 wrote:
2020-03-27 07:34am
Boris Johnson has tested positive for Coronavirus. Reports are still being written up at the moment.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-52060791
Couldn't happen to a nicer chap.
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Re: The Walls Come Down: No Travel Betwen US and Europe for 30 Days

Post by Zaune » 2020-03-27 07:39am

Boris Johnson has it now.
Prime Minister Boris Johnson has tested positive for coronavirus, Downing Street has said.

Mr Johnson has mild symptoms and will self-isolate in Downing Street.

"He was tested for coronavirus on the personal advice of England's chief medical officer, Professor Chris Whitty," a statement said.

He will still be in charge of the government's handling of the crisis, the statement added.

The test was carried out at Number 10 by NHS staff.

In a tweet, Mr Johnson said: "Over the last 24 hours I have developed mild symptoms and tested positive for coronavirus. I am now self-isolating, but I will continue to lead the government's response via video-conference as we fight this virus.

"Together we will beat this."

Mr Johnson was last seen on Thursday night, as he clapped outside No 10 as part of a nationwide gesture to thank NHS staff.

There are more than 11,600 confirmed cases of coronavirus in the UK, and 578 people have died.
Forgive me if my sympathy for him is somewhat limited.
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Re: The Walls Come Down: No Travel Betwen US and Europe for 30 Days

Post by mr friendly guy » 2020-03-27 07:53am

I guess BoJo better build up that herd immunity. I also notice some of the youtube videos reporting this has their comments turned off. :lol:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Udze8vnvX4
Watch the reporters trying not to laugh when they talk about this. Its comedy gold.
Last edited by mr friendly guy on 2020-03-27 07:56am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The Walls Come Down: No Travel Betwen US and Europe for 30 Days

Post by loomer » 2020-03-27 07:54am

It's not quite as karmic as when Mr. Potato Head came down with it, but it's close.
"Doctors keep their scalpels and other instruments handy, for emergencies. Keep your philosophy ready too—ready to understand heaven and earth. In everything you do, even the smallest thing, remember the chain that links them. Nothing earthly succeeds by ignoring heaven, nothing heavenly by ignoring the earth." M.A.A.A

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Re: The Walls Come Down: No Travel Betwen US and Europe for 30 Days

Post by ray245 » 2020-03-27 08:34am

My main concern is all the rest of the UK government that might have gotten it and they needing to self-isolate as well. All the staffers, civil servants, science experts and etc.
Humans are such funny creatures. We are selfish about selflessness, yet we can love something so much that we can hate something.

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Re: The Walls Come Down: No Travel Betwen US and Europe for 30 Days

Post by loomer » 2020-03-27 09:00am

"Doctors keep their scalpels and other instruments handy, for emergencies. Keep your philosophy ready too—ready to understand heaven and earth. In everything you do, even the smallest thing, remember the chain that links them. Nothing earthly succeeds by ignoring heaven, nothing heavenly by ignoring the earth." M.A.A.A

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Re: The Walls Come Down: No Travel Betwen US and Europe for 30 Days

Post by mr friendly guy » 2020-03-27 09:27am

One nurse has been assaulted in Australia because she was wearing scrubs. I wouldn't be surprised if dipshits do this in other countries as well.
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Re: The Walls Come Down: No Travel Betwen US and Europe for 30 Days

Post by MKSheppard » 2020-03-27 11:40am

So hurm
The main bottleneck in testing isn’t people being swabbed, it’s in the labs that run the tests. Every swab in the state of Ohio is sent to a single lab in Columbus to be run. That lab is currently operating, officially, with a 7-14 day delay in results. According to our pharmacies rep, whom I hung up with less than an hour ago, unofficially, tests run today aren’t expected to be completed for 18-21 days.

Which, obviously, means that if you’re sick enough to meet the criteria for receiving a test in Ohio today, by the time you get the results you’re almost guaranteed to be dead or better.

And the test results reported today weren’t collected yesterday, or the day before. Best case scenario they were collected on 3-19/3-20. More realistically they were probably collected 3-12/3-13. Which means the data lag is tremendous.

I have no idea what other states are facing but I have to assume it’s at least similar.
Today's update:

Image
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Re: The Walls Come Down: No Travel Betwen US and Europe for 30 Days

Post by Eulogy » 2020-03-27 01:47pm

mr friendly guy wrote:
2020-03-27 09:27am
One nurse has been assaulted in Australia because she was wearing scrubs. I wouldn't be surprised if dipshits do this in other countries as well.
On the bright side, it does make it easy to decide who gets those ventilators when they arrive at death's door. Karma is a bitch.
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Re: The Walls Come Down: No Travel Betwen US and Europe for 30 Days

Post by MKSheppard » 2020-03-27 02:44pm

Italy reported 919 new deaths just now.

The city of Bergamo has a 0.56% fatality rate. Not that 0.56% of COVID patients die, but that 0.56% of the city has already died from COVID. Bergamo is the same size as Provo, UT BTW
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Re: The Walls Come Down: No Travel Betwen US and Europe for 30 Days

Post by MKSheppard » 2020-03-27 03:11pm

I'm getting scared.

I found the official Chinese data for deaths per day from wiki and threw it into the graph

Image

RED = CHINA
GREEN = ITALY
BLUE = USA
YELLOW = SPAIN

For the deaths per million there are two chinese lines:

The one with thick red broken line is using the population of hubei province (58.5 million).
The one with a thin red broken line is using just the population of Wuhan (11~ million).
"If scientists and inventors who develop disease cures and useful technologies don't get lifetime royalties, I'd like to know what fucking rationale you have for some guy getting lifetime royalties for writing an episode of Full House." - Mike Wong

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Re: The Walls Come Down: No Travel Betwen US and Europe for 30 Days

Post by MKSheppard » 2020-03-27 03:22pm

From eyeballing it, it looks like Italy has entered the peak killing phase.

The peak killing phase (if we assume the Chinese data model with just the population of Wuhan), lasts about ten days.

This could mean we see about a week of 800 to 900 deaths a day from Italy, before it breaks and goes down.
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Re: The Walls Come Down: No Travel Betwen US and Europe for 30 Days

Post by MKSheppard » 2020-03-27 03:43pm

From another forum:
Just spoke with my friend in central Louisiana, where I’m from. She’s an RN and used to be an ICU nurse and just switched to case management. New Orleans hospitals are completely full. She is receiving transfer papers for New Orleans patients and they are filling up their hospitals. Basically, there won’t be any beds for central LA patients. The hospitals are admitting people with fevers as possible cases. She said it’s absolute chaos. Louisiana has the highest death rate for COVID. Last I checked it was around 4%.
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Re: The Walls Come Down: No Travel Betwen US and Europe for 30 Days

Post by MKSheppard » 2020-03-27 03:47pm

Some stats:

8.56% of Tennessee confirmed cases are currently hospitalized.
24.27% of Ohio cases are currently hospitalized.
28.15% of Louisiana cases are hospitalized and 9.83% are on a ventilator.
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Re: The Walls Come Down: No Travel Betwen US and Europe for 30 Days

Post by MKSheppard » 2020-03-27 05:09pm

Chinese tests have horrible QC issues it seems:

https://www.taiwannews.com.tw/en/news/3905575
TAIPEI (Taiwan News) — Spanish newspaper El País reported on Friday (March 27) that the Spanish government has had to stop using 340,000 test kits purchased from China, after they were found to have an accuracy of only 30 percent.

As China seeks to position itself as the savior of the world during the Wuhan coronavirus (COVID-19) pandemic, using verbs such as "supplied" and "delivered" to give the impression that the totalitarian regime donated testing kits and medical supplies, another report has surfaced of a country dealing with defective Chinese products.

The Spanish Society of Infectious Diseases and Clinical Microbiology (SEIMC) on its website announced that nose swab kits produced by Shenzhen Bioeasy Biotechnology are accurate just 30 percent of the time, in contrast to the U.S. Centers for Disease Control (CDC) standard of 80 percent.

El País cited a microbiologist as saying, "With that value, it does not make sense to use these tests." The conclusion of the experts who evaluated the kits is that they will have to stick to using the current test — the PCR. After a government meeting on the coronavirus crisis, Fernando Simón, director of Spain's health and emergency coordination, said that 9,000 of the test kits would have to be returned to China because they "did not correspond to what was included in the quality certificates with CE marking [the EU standard]," reported acta sanitaria.

The health ministry told El País that the Carlos III Health Institute had "detected a sensitivity that does not correspond to what is established on the technical sheet." Based on these test results, the Madrid city government has decided to stop using the kits, and the health ministry has asked Bioeasy to replace them.

Spain bought 340,000 of the rapid test kits, and other countries, such as Georgia, have made similar purchases from the firm.

The news came as Spanish Health Minister Salvador Illa announced a 432 million euro (US$474 million) purchase of Chinese-made medical supplies, including 500 million masks, 5.5 million test kits, and 950 ventilators, on Wednesday (March 27), reported EuroWeeklynews.

In response to the reports, the Chinese embassy claimed on Twitter Thursday (March 26) that Shenzhen Bioeasy Biotechnology is not on its list of "approved suppliers." The Spanish health ministry later issued a statement in which it said that the test kits had been acquired through a supplier in Spain, which had imported them from China, reported La Prensa Latina.

Earlier in the week on Monday (March 23), a Czech news site revealed that 80 percent of the traunch of COVID-19 rapid test kits "donated" from China are faulty, forcing healthcare workers to continue relying on conventional laboratory tests. On Sunday (March 22), a Malaysian blogger debunked claims that the 10 million surgical face masks being shipped to Malaysia from China are free.

German Health Minister Jens Spahn on Wednesday was cited by the The New York Times as saying that he is being flooded by hundreds of emails requesting rapid tests from China, but he said that the Chinese tests are simply not accurate enough:

Our institutes are testing these and looking at them, and they are not sensitive and specific enough. It does not help us if we have quick tests that deliver large numbers of false positive or false negatives. As soon as we have a quick test that is good, we will start using it.
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Re: The Walls Come Down: No Travel Betwen US and Europe for 30 Days

Post by MKSheppard » 2020-03-27 05:32pm

Pulled data for NYC and New Orleans.

Image

:shock:
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Re: The Walls Come Down: No Travel Betwen US and Europe for 30 Days

Post by Mr Bean » 2020-03-27 05:51pm

Next week... next week is going to be bad. Heck we won't even see the folks Senator Rand Paul infected until late next week at earliest. Believed he might be infected and still hanging out in the Senate and at fundraisers for six days after his test. Shaking hands, meeting and greeting and who knows how many were great hand washers and how many were face feelers.

That ten to fourteen day lag time between infection and symptoms gives this thing so much power to spread.

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Re: The Walls Come Down: No Travel Betwen US and Europe for 30 Days

Post by Zaune » 2020-03-27 06:39pm

More good news: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-n ... e-52052830
A police force has had a surge in calls from people reporting their neighbours for "going out for a second run".

Government lockdown rules allow people to leave their homes to take one form of exercise a day.

Nick Adderley, from Northamptonshire Police, said the force control room has had "dozens and dozens" of calls about people ignoring the order.

In the coming days, police will be given the powers to fine anyone found to be flouting the law.

Mr Adderley told the Local Democracy Reporting Service his officers will issue penalty notices if necessary, but wanted to educate the public first.

"We are getting calls from people who say 'I think my neighbour is going out on a second run - I want you to come and arrest them'.

"We have had dozens and dozens of these calls."

The force has also been getting reports from people whose neighbours are gathering in their back gardens, Mr Adderley said.

"We won't have police officers crashing through garden fences to check the ID of everyone who is there to see whether they live at the house or whether they should be self-isolating," he added.

"We wouldn't want to discourage people from making us aware, but we have to set expectations. If people think we will be descending on these houses with blue lights, then we won't.

"But be under no illusion, we will be using these powers if necessary."

Supt Ash Tuckley, who leads the control room, said the force did not "want to discourage people from reporting" but stressed the "need to exercise caution".

He said other queries included someone asking if it was illegal not to cough in a tissue, a caller urging police to arrest their neighbour before he drove off, and a man who asked: "My wife doesn't think her job is essential but I do and she's working from home. Is there anything I can do?"

The number of coronavirus deaths in the UK had risen to 465 by Wednesday.
I'm fairly sure most of the people placing the calls are doing it Ironically, but... really?

And I would love to know how the police intend to actually prove that someone has been out of the house more often than they're supposed to, even if they had the manpower to proactively enforce the rules in the first place.
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Re: The Walls Come Down: No Travel Betwen US and Europe for 30 Days

Post by Broomstick » 2020-03-27 06:50pm

loomer wrote:
2020-03-27 07:37am
Settler communities includes all settler communities, Broomstick, not just remote and rural ones.
You keep talking about a government's duty towards its citizens. What I still don't think you grasp is that the duty or right to healthcare does not exist in the US. You only have a right to healthcare if you have insurance.

That is why this happened:
Teenage boy whose death was linked to COVID-19 turned away from urgent care for not having insurance

What the urgent care clinic did is perfectly legal in the US. In the eyes of the law they did nothing wrong. It didn't matter how sick the boy was they were under no obligation to treat him.

A Native American on a reservation or who is part of a recognized Federal tribe actually has more right to healthcare by dint of treaties with the US government than I do.

In the US no level of government has any obligation to provide healthcare to any person (outside of Natives and people incarcerated). None. No hospital is obligated to treat anyone, with the exception of emergency departments obligated to treat people at the point of death - no other clinic or indeed hospital is required to treat the uninsured.

Which is entirely appalling but that is the reality here. People die every day because they don't have health insurance here.

I could quit my job and stay home and hope I might not have caught the virus yet... but if I'm wrong I could be left to die and no one would be legally in the wrong. At least if I keep working I have been guaranteed coverage if I do fall sick.
Last edited by Broomstick on 2020-03-27 06:59pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The Walls Come Down: No Travel Betwen US and Europe for 30 Days

Post by Broomstick » 2020-03-27 06:52pm

mr friendly guy wrote:
2020-03-27 07:53am
I guess BoJo better build up that herd immunity. I also notice some of the youtube videos reporting this has their comments turned off. :lol:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Udze8vnvX4
Watch the reporters trying not to laugh when they talk about this. Its comedy gold.
Oh that was a delightful smirk... :angelic:
A life is like a garden. Perfect moments can be had, but not preserved, except in memory. Leonard Nimoy.

Now I did a job. I got nothing but trouble since I did it, not to mention more than a few unkind words as regard to my character so let me make this abundantly clear. I do the job. And then I get paid.- Malcolm Reynolds, Captain of Serenity, which sums up my feelings regarding the lawsuit discussed here.

If a free society cannot help the many who are poor, it cannot save the few who are rich. - John F. Kennedy

Sam Vimes Theory of Economic Injustice

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Re: The Walls Come Down: No Travel Betwen US and Europe for 30 Days

Post by Broomstick » 2020-03-27 06:54pm

Not "some" hospitals. "More and more" hospitals.

As I said - there's not nearly enough of anything to go around.

Of course, if you don't have insurance you'll be left to die in the ER. If you have insurance you at least have some chance at getting treated.
A life is like a garden. Perfect moments can be had, but not preserved, except in memory. Leonard Nimoy.

Now I did a job. I got nothing but trouble since I did it, not to mention more than a few unkind words as regard to my character so let me make this abundantly clear. I do the job. And then I get paid.- Malcolm Reynolds, Captain of Serenity, which sums up my feelings regarding the lawsuit discussed here.

If a free society cannot help the many who are poor, it cannot save the few who are rich. - John F. Kennedy

Sam Vimes Theory of Economic Injustice

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Re: The Walls Come Down: No Travel Betwen US and Europe for 30 Days

Post by Broomstick » 2020-03-27 06:57pm

MKSheppard wrote:
2020-03-27 03:47pm
Some stats:

8.56% of Tennessee confirmed cases are currently hospitalized.
24.27% of Ohio cases are currently hospitalized.
28.15% of Louisiana cases are hospitalized and 9.83% are on a ventilator.
That's partly because the only people getting tested at all in the US are those sick enough to need a hospital.

Which, given the numbers, is terrifying.
A life is like a garden. Perfect moments can be had, but not preserved, except in memory. Leonard Nimoy.

Now I did a job. I got nothing but trouble since I did it, not to mention more than a few unkind words as regard to my character so let me make this abundantly clear. I do the job. And then I get paid.- Malcolm Reynolds, Captain of Serenity, which sums up my feelings regarding the lawsuit discussed here.

If a free society cannot help the many who are poor, it cannot save the few who are rich. - John F. Kennedy

Sam Vimes Theory of Economic Injustice

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