Majin Gojira wrote: ↑2019-05-15 01:00am
And Gohan's case was psychological more than anything else. I don't think that description really holds.
Then you've never been in a fight. Just a test for you to see how the mental side changes the physical, go throw a punch at a pillow held against a wall then throw a punch at the bare wall. You'll see how much your mind holds your body back or how much mental effort it takes to hit something that you know is going to hurt.
That's what's holding Gohan back only in his case it's more that he doesn't want to hurt other people.
On the Pym example, nope. He can just do that. It strains to go to the "Realm of the Abstracts" both physically and mentally, but otherwise, nothing stops him from doing that again.
And the other examples? Yeah, they're also repeatable by and large.
That's fine by me then. I'd be up for allowing it even knowing that opens the debate about why he usually doesn't go that large or small even when it would likely help him to do so.
I'd do the same for the other outlier examples.
Then why did Vegeta need to power up to 36K+ to blow up the earth when it only has 81 times the mass? Running linearly, he'd only need a power level of 11K to do it. So why?
Either the scale is non-linear slowing down at higher PL's, which would fit what we see in the show, or he didn't know how much it would take and wanted to be sure he'd get the job done. Without calculating out a full graph of feats mapped to PL I'd guess it's more the latter than the former.
That last line is such total bullshit it's funny.
Again, Frieza made fun of him because of how weak that blast was!
The blast could have reasonably been from a weapon rated for a few thousand PL which would make it a moon killer scaling off of Roshi and Piccolo. Weak by Goku and Frieza's standards, especially seeing as Golden Frieza seems to take hits especially well.
Nice rebuttal to the actual meat of the argument though. I can't wait to see 'Not so hot' win the next major court case or sway a political debate.
You brought it up, and I'm telling you it's insufficient as evidence. You have to make a far better case for its veracity than you have so far, and I'm telling you now, you're better off with a different line of inquiry.
If your only claim for scaled back Goku not being a match for Superman is "durr-hurr lasor pistol killed teh Gokuz" you're not worth the effort.
Never assume everyone knows every bit of nerd ephemera.
Hence the second bit where we get an explanation about what said character or universe does... Do you even read my posts?
If I didn't qualify what counted as a Superhero, we'd be arguing the same thing regardless. The word has a very broad meaning.
You're probably right on that one.
I brought it up because it sounds like that's what you want and the idea of him punching an abstract concept stupid.
Nah, I'd be curious to see a lot of matchups.
Now, trying to outrun the Black Racer might work.
Can he instant transmission away, assuming he can lock onto a ki signature far enough away? Otherwise, DBZ Speed is one of those areas that can be, sketchy at best due to the use of unreal time in fights. We know their vastly supersonic, and based on some lines of dialogue and feats some try to calculate them at beyond light speed but again that debate gets messy.
And him interacting with Death would be interesting.
Goku would probably great death as a friend at this point but Death would be another story.
But it sounds like you want punching.
Like you want Goku to be Dah Best Evah.
Yeah, the guy who admitted there are stronger forces in comics and manga than Goku wants him to be the best ever.
Look, I know that I'm arguing hard for him but that's mostly because people always undersell how powerful Dragon Ball actually gets especially in the east vs. west type character debates that were common in the big anime and manga boom. It sucks when one of your favorite franchises gets shit on by people that last watched an episode in middle school.
So you want Goku to be Saitama.
I want Goku to have a story where even as strong as he is he fails or at least has to use a different approach. He's had a long career of punching and blasting things and I enjoy the hell out of it but I also find the idea of what he'd do when that fails interesting. Goku has a lot of charisma and even if he's more than a little slow he figures things out in his own way, paired next to some of the people he'd meet in this crossover, even ones he's stronger than he'd be forced to adapt.
Read back the bolded part again and think again about how getting the 'true-ist' version of the character was emphasized. Think real hard.
Oh no, I must be less myself now than I was in high school because I've changed!
More seriously, so what if his paradigm changes in this new world, that'll happen to a lot of people. Some of the weaker characters would probably end up retiring no longer able to keep up with the powerful characters streaming into this strange new world. Are they any less themselves because they're no longer special? Nah, so why should Saitama be any different?
To keep things consistent. As you say, they go up and down power wise with the needs of the story. To get a solid appraisal of what may happen, we can remove a random variable and make things easier.
Plus it allows for the mundane governments to pose more of a threat than they might be able to otherwise.
I think you should have just limited it to feats we've seen them do more than once and you'd cut a good 70% of the really silly stuff without putting a hard cap on things.
Even capped at mid-tier Supes level no military on Earth can touch a lot of these characters, so that's probably out the window unless a lot of heroes are loyal to modern Earth governments.
Besides, I know the answer to it "Superman One Million and a few other literal Overtier characters fix everything."
That's not even close to true. I think that even the best-intentioned people at that power scale would have different views on fixing things. That clash of power and egos would be dramatic even in a world where we just got a heap of very powerful beings dumped on us in less than 6 months.
Why the fuck do you think that me applying a limiter on every hero on the goddamn planet makes you think I'm picking on non-western properties specifically?!
When you specifically peg the power scale to a Western hero, use the term sidekicks, reference Western adaptations it comes off a certain way. Why not peg power levels to greater than planet busters less than galaxy busters definitely no universe busters and call it a day?
It's because I'm using western shows as an example primarily? Just ignore Pluto then, an adaptation and expansion of a classic Astro Boy story. Only way for that to fly, I suppose.
A whole one example.
Do you think that Japanese heroes are somehow on average stronger than western heroes?
I don't especially care. I'd be happy to have the Flash, Hank Pym, or Madoka at full power as well.
I didn't want a battle between reality warping uber-gods. I wanted Superheroes.
Tell that to the people writing Superhero fiction then. They're the ones who've written most of the stuff you want to exclude.
And note how we went through a whole thing on Madoka where power wasn't even an issue, but whether or not the Kyubey was as big a threat as claimed?
(Which I'm growing more and more convinced I underestimated the devious little shits).
Yeah, tricksters are always strong independently of their own power tricksters with actually power behind them are just... Oof.
So, have you got anyone who isn't a Z-Fighter that I'm "Holding Back"? Or are you just a pedantic DBZ fanatic without anything else to go on?
Most of the other really powerful stuff I've read/watched isn't a fit for this thread or is already of an appropriate power level even with the cap.
I could probably argue that Alucard from Hellsing counts as a hero by your criteria because he has powers, is in the correct time frame, doesn't go by his real name, and takes care to remain out of the public eye. I don't think he breaks the power cap though even if he is one nigh unkillable son-of-a-bitch.
Negi from Negima doesn't count because he doesn't use an alias to hide his powers and doesn't wear a costume.
The My Hero Academia crew are all well under the power limit though some of them could cause trouble for high powered characters regardless. With Ochako and Eraserhead come to mind as examples of such disruptors.
Ichigo probably counts. He transforms into a new outfit to fight Hollows, fits the time frame, and has powers. I stopped reading at the end of the Soul Society arc but I still followed along enough to know he gets pretty nuts power wise by the end of that series. He probably still stays well under the cap though.
Lina Inverse would be fun but doesn't count.
I wonder if Tanya von Degurechaff would count if the show wasn't alt-universe WWII?
I watch a lot of stuff that wouldn't care, nerfing Goku is just a sore spot because of how often people do it.
Formless wrote: ↑2019-05-15 03:46am
The problem with analyzing Power Levels is that there are too many assumptions you have to make, and too little evidence within the show/manga to justify any of them. We don't know how a Scouter works, we don't know if it was analyzing the Power Level of the shotgun or merely the human weilding it (if Power Levels are purely a Ki phenomenon, it wouldn't make sense for the Scouter to pay any attention to the shotgun), and most critically we don't
know how the shotgun was loaded. That is, we don't know the powder load, which significantly impacts the actual velocity and kinetic energy of the projectile or projectiles (it is equally likely to have been loaded with buckshot as a slug). Thus, we lack critical information to
analyze. And this is consistently the case in Dragonball, because like Maijin Gojira pointed out, the franchise has never actually been consistent in how powerful the characters are, despite the unchanging nature of the numbers associated with Power Levels.
I guess NecronLord should never have put all that time into analyzing 40k then given that it suffers from these same issues only sometimes harder. Yet, he's still made a go of it and nobody here denied that it should or could even be attempted to useful degree of accuracy.
1) if you lift weights, you will quickly find out that you can't lift your maximum load every day, nor does anyone recommend it. You will get exhausted if you lift every day even if you change up the excercizes every day. Hence, every excercise routine includes rest days every week, and professionals even do whats known as "de-loading" wher they take an entire week off every month in order to let their body (including the nervous system) recover from the stresses. Point is, if real athletes cannot achieve peak performance every day its dubious to assume these characters can either.
I don't know if that holds for Saiyans given what we see of Vegeta and Goku, it would also help explain why Humans just couldn't keep up.
And yes, before you say any more I do understand what you're saying here.
2) as for Roshi and Piccolo blowing up the moon, this is treated in such a blatantly unrealistic way that the only way to reconcile it with real science is to assume that the "Earth" of Dragonball has a much smaller moon than Luna. Maybe something closer to Ceres, Charon, or maybe Saturn's moon Mimas, would make more sense given the lack of apparent tidal disruption or impacts from lunar fragments (like you see in Cowboy Beebop). Alternatively, the blasts merely disturbed the surface enough that it ceased to reflect the radiation necessary to sustain a Saiyan's Ozaru form. Either way, it can't be as impressive a feat as it first appears, because close inspection shows it doesn't have the consequences we expect from such a feat.
They literally never show the moon again until it's restored so it is actually destroyed. As for the bad effects, that is a tough one that isn't ever covered. I've always assumed that North Kai just took care of it quietly off screen but it's a bit of a sore spot in the power level debate to be sure.
I read the thread, I know what he said. He never argued the characters canonically can do those things. He said that, for the sake of a fun little thought experiment certain characters in the Superhero genre should either have limits placed on them or just be excluded outright because they would actually ruin the fun of considering the consequences of the scenario. Seriously, do I have to explain why its stupid that Superman Prime once punched reality because he hated how things had gotten after Crisis on Infinite Earths? Because if anything, Maijin Gojira is being harshest on western superheroes. They actually get away with some of the most heinous bullshit in fiction by a mile.
Yeah, Superman Prime is all kinds of OP. Punching and tearing holes in reality, coming back to life because he was sick of being dead, it was a wild ride. I wouldn't mind seeing him interact with the rest of the Superhero universe though.
Because arguing about Goku's power level is soooooooooo interesting and vital to establishing the impact of superheroes appearing all over the world.
If Majin Gojira hadn't tried to cap Goku at Wonder Woman power next to Superman I was ready to shrug my shoulders and move on. As it is I'm still about there because the debate is proving pretty pointless.
There are actually a ton of conversation hooks in this thread despite why you say. In fact, there wasn't any really major disagreement about who is and isn't a superhero until page 3. Back on page 1 we were talking about the potential environmental impacts of Stark Industries having fusion power and other technologies. There is the question of how everyone (both heroes and governments) will react exactly to those few villains who slipped through the cracks via the origin story clause. There is the question of how the Earth will react to the knowledge of Alien life existing. And of course there is the question of what happens when governments and private entities inevitably try to replicate superpowers via the half dozen methods already identified (magic, super science, radiation, super tech...). Maybe you could talk about those things instead. I would absolutely be game for it.
I wonder what Stark would think of Capsule Corp tech, gravity manipulation, and ass-pulled time machines?