Moderator: Steve
Corrector Yui has the same premise-- a Magical Girl who patrols the internet! Also, Digimon.Tribble wrote: 2019-05-07 08:50pm We also get the Superhuman Samurai Cyber Squad for computer security, which is pretty neat.Why bother having Norton when instead you can just send in a bunch of teens to literally fight the viruses and blow them up?
To be perfectly honest, I'm more of the "The Angels and Yahweh are just another set of divnities aking to Odin and Hercules" mindset, but series are what they are.Formless wrote: 2019-05-07 08:05pmLuckily this works out just fine in the Sandman mythos: gods are ultimately born of dreams, and only the Presence and his angels (like Lucifer) are more powerful than the Endless-- and possibly only in the sense that the Endless can die, and are deferential to the Presence as creator of the Universe. And the Presence isn't essential to the Sandman mythos so much as it is one of the few legacy elements of the DC universe that Neil Gaiman kept around after the first story arc. Otherwise, each Endless is omnipotent within their own domain, as long as they follow the cosmic rules that govern the Endless (which are very few in the case of Death because no one can actually kill her-- she's Death). So every God basically answers to Dream in some manner or another, since they return to his realm to die just as they were born. Gods that aren't worshipped also start to lose power, as fewer and fewer people dream of them anymore. When dreams define reality, all myths can be true without contradiction-- but not all are equally powerful.
Well, one should properly be called 'Zilla jr.'Oh, right, I forgot there are two Godzillas.
I debated that for a while too, but I asked myself what the difference was between a power armor user and a mecha pilot and I really couldn't come up with anything substantive.<Snip Super Robot Stuff>
Thankfully, as near as I can figure offhand, the only real threat the Doctor would bring with him/her is The Master. So we're spared Daleks and Cybermen. I think.Yeah, but by their very nature, the Pulp characters won't create much of a splash like the Kaiju and occult characters will. Wesley Dodds' Sandman is the sole exception due to his connection to, well, The Sandman. Those are the kinds of major events I wanted to focus on, because there was just no practical way to list all lesser known heroes while also including a complete list of important events. Dr Who has far greater implications than The Shadow, for instance, by virtue of bringing the Galifreyans into the mix. Among other things. I'm not really a fan of Dr. Who.
To be honest, I am too. The Lucifer comics actually showed that a Universe can exist without the Presence, because Lucifer was given one such universe to play with by The Presence; but as soon as that universe came to be, Death dropped by to pay Lucifer a visit, and explained that as she and her siblings embody concepts that are essential to existence itself, Lucifer can't actually escape Them like he can escape The Presence and all of his Judeo-Christian trappings. They exist separately from The Presence because they exist by necessity. He doesn't. The Presence, I mean, though its equally applicable to Lucifer, of course. Aaand he's more powerful than DCAU Superman.Majin Gojira wrote: 2019-05-08 11:12amTo be perfectly honest, I'm more of the "The Angels and Yahweh are just another set of divnities aking to Odin and Hercules" mindset, but series are what they are.
Uh, I'm about 12 episodes in and this is clearly a history of the entire mecha genre except sentient robots like the Transformers. He is clearly including both Super Robot series and Real Robots, and he also makes clear that while there is a connection to the Tokusatsu/Superhero genre, its still not really the same genre. He notes in the seventh episode that the two genres were most similar at the start of the 1980's, but diverge radically before the end of the decade as most of the "combining mecha" tropes were ceded entirely to Super Sentai. So I don't think you can rely on that list to supplant your own judgement on whether a show really bears enough similarities to a superhero show like Super Sentai. And there is no shame in not including a show simply because you don't know anything about it. I've had to do that constantly in this thread.Lemme see, who counts ... I'm going to use Professor Otaku's Visual History of Mecha Anime youtube series to see what I can find. It only goes up to about 2000 right now, but that should cover things for the most part.
You know, funny enough, when I was looking into superhero video games, I had toyed with the possibility that the Tohou series technically qualifies. Despite the setting appearing like feudal Japan, its actually set on a sort of reservation in the present day for Youkai and people who want to live the old fashioned rustic lifestyle.Aura Battler Dunbine (Humans channel powers through their mechs, have 'armor' as they are knights, but it mostly takes place in a hidden magical world, but they do come to earth later)
See, from what I've heard about Patlabor, it sounds too much like a Real Robot show to me to really qualify...Day 71
Patlabor ("This story if fiction, but in 10 years, who knows?")
Isn't that show literally straight up space opera AND set too far into the future to qualify, even before time dilation starts applying?Gunbuster (Relativistic Time dilation and terrifying sun-eating space monsters!)
Actually, my complaint would be more that its a police procedural crossed with cyberpunk. Its not really superhero, as the main character's abilities are not uncommon in the world she exists in. Its a subtle point, but an important one. Sometimes an extraordinary ability is a matter of perspective. Major Kusanagi's cybernetic body is literally one of the most common models on the market, and that's tied into the story's themes of identity. That kinda disqualifies her on multiple points.Day 72
Ghost in the Shell (Just close enough to fit temporaly, but that can be a matter of opinion)
How does that interact with The Inhumans, who already have a base (civilization?) on the moon?Mado King Granzort (THE MOON IS TERRAFORMED!)
If you're counting Genocyber, I think you just opened up the door for Lucy from Elfen Lied. I mean, they practically have the same backgrounds, the same powers, everything. YES, I WATCHED THAT EPISODE OF ANIME ABANDON.Genocyber (quite gory)
Ah, see, I mentioned them, but I don't know if they actually count. Corrector Yui counts, that's for sure, but any given Digimon series? Debatable. Frontier comes the closest as the human characters are Henshin heroes. But all of their adventures took place in the Digital world, and its implied their powers don't work in the Real world. Adventure? Maaaaybe, since their powers do work in our world, but the heroes only serve as catalysts for their digimon to transform-- after that, they just stand on the sidelines and provide moral support. Tamers? Oh god, horrible manmade Cthulu time, it could be possible. By the end they even do the Henshin thing like the Frontier crew. Savers? I don't know how far into the future that takes place, but otherwise it actually should from what I hear... but I kinda stopped watching after Frontier. And I barely got to see any of it because it only aired at, like, 4 or 5 in the morning here.Day 83
Gear Fighter Dendoh (capturing 'data monsters' is a thing, since someone mentioned Digimon...)
See, this is a perfect example of the caution I'm talking about. I don't know enough about all of those anime even after watching that History series to argue all of your examples, but I do know enough about Pacific Rim to know its characters are disqualified. Piloting the Jaegers is literally their day job. Their skills outside of the Jaegers is nothing really special (most soldiers have that kind of training). There is no attempt in the show to depict them as super smart, just good tacticians. They fail all of your criteria except having adventures no more than twenty minutes into the future. No matter how much "personality" the mech has, it still isn't actually a character. If it was, then the Gundam would qualify, but its show is explicitly classified as being part of a different genre with completely different themes and motifs. No, the Jaeger pilots are little different from Pulp characters whose main skill was "can fly a plane." That was exciting and justification enough at the time to write stories about their adventures because aircraft were new technology at the time. But a close inspection shows that their stories were radically different from the Masked Vigilante characters from the same era; and the Science Fiction adventures of Buck Rogers and other characters like him were very different again.Day 96
Pacific Rim
Remember the criteria, and that helps narrow things down.Formless wrote: 2019-05-09 04:28am I'm kind of wondering: when I did research on superhero video games, there was some suggestion that BlazBlue counts as a superhero franchise, but I'm not familiar enough with it to say for sure. That does, however, make me wonder on the status of fighting game franchises. After much contemplation on "where are all the superheroes in video games?" I'm starting to think that actually, the answer might be "fighting game characters, dummy!" The only thing is, most of them have really impenetrable (or in the case of Tekken and DOA, incredibly silly) plots. But if they counted, that brings in more Evil Corporations/organizations, since you have Kasumi's clone(s) running around trying to be a hero and evade her creators.
To put it simply:See, from what I've heard about Patlabor, it sounds too much like a Real Robot show to me to really qualify...
It actually starts as a parody of shojo sports anime set shortly after it was released. THEN Foreverwar stuff happens.Isn't that show literally straight up space opera AND set too far into the future to qualify, even before time dilation starts applying?
Even then, the Major has hacking skills so extreme she can scare some of her co-workers, what with puppeting multiple bodies.Actually, my complaint would be more that its a police procedural crossed with cyberpunk. Its not really superhero, as the main character's abilities are not uncommon in the world she exists in. Its a subtle point, but an important one. Sometimes an extraordinary ability is a matter of perspective. Major Kusanagi's cybernetic body is literally one of the most common models on the market, and that's tied into the story's themes of identity. That kinda disqualifies her on multiple points.
Sounds like the Blue Area of the Moon expands.How does that interact with The Inhumans, who already have a base (civilization?) on the moon?
I actually haven't seen that episode yet...If you're counting Genocyber, I think you just opened up the door for Lucy from Elfen Lied. I mean, they practically have the same backgrounds, the same powers, everything. YES, I WATCHED THAT EPISODE OF ANIME ABANDON.
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Tamers, I think, would be the most seemless fit, but there is a whole Digimon Multiverse BS to worry about.Ah, see, I mentioned them, but I don't know if they actually count. Corrector Yui counts, that's for sure, but any given Digimon series? Debatable. Frontier comes the closest as the human characters are Henshin heroes. But all of their adventures took place in the Digital world, and its implied their powers don't work in the Real world. Adventure? Maaaaybe, since their powers do work in our world, but the heroes only serve as catalysts for their digimon to transform-- after that, they just stand on the sidelines and provide moral support. Tamers? Oh god, horrible manmade Cthulu time, it could be possible. By the end they even do the Henshin thing like the Frontier crew. Savers? I don't know how far into the future that takes place, but otherwise it actually should from what I hear... but I kinda stopped watching after Frontier. And I barely got to see any of it because it only aired at, like, 4 or 5 in the morning here.
Maybe Applimon counts... I've actually been meaning to see it, weirdly enough. Been meaning to see what became of this franchise. It scratches a nostalgic itch for me that i have for few other things. But Digimon Tri really weirded me out right from the start given that Kari and TK are supposed to be part of Daisuki's class and neither of them notice his disappearance, let alone their other three friends who vanished with him. Cold as ice.
Again, run them through the criteria.See, this is a perfect example of the caution I'm talking about. I don't know enough about all of those anime even after watching that History series to argue all of your examples, but I do know enough about Pacific Rim to know its characters are disqualified. Piloting the Jaegers is literally their day job. Their skills outside of the Jaegers is nothing really special (most soldiers have that kind of training). There is no attempt in the show to depict them as super smart, just good tacticians. They fail all of your criteria except having adventures no more than twenty minutes into the future. No matter how much "personality" the mech has, it still isn't actually a character. If it was, then the Gundam would qualify, but its show is explicitly classified as being part of a different genre with completely different themes and motifs. No, the Jaeger pilots are little different from Pulp characters whose main skill was "can fly a plane." That was exciting and justification enough at the time to write stories about their adventures because aircraft were new technology at the time. But a close inspection shows that their stories were radically different from the Masked Vigilante characters from the same era; and the Science Fiction adventures of Buck Rogers and other characters like him were very different again.
I'll take on the rest of your posts in a bit, but THIS I have to address first.Majin Gojira wrote: 2019-05-09 04:33pmTo put it simply:
Noa has an extraordinary skill - she is quite a wonderful Labor pilot (a gag is made that she can't really play labor-related games because she's too used to the controls for the real thing).
She has a special labor-riding outfit, and the '98 has a design meant to look 'heroic'.
[...]
Again, run them through the criteria.
They have a power/skill: Drift Compatibility.
Special Outfits/Unique Looks
You can get away with a lot when you helped define the conventions of the genre. I can seed that in the Jaeger/Labor cases, and some other Real Robot listed above.Formless wrote: 2019-05-09 08:06pm Likewise, being an ace pilot in a Real Robot show is not the same as being a superhero. Its a different archetype, shared by characters who fly completely different but equally fantastic vehicles like space fighters. Wedge Antilles is basically the same kind of character as Noa, but he flies an X-Wing rather than a robot.
Actually using Holmes as an example, he applies to quite a breadth of skills. Fencer and Boxer of high talent, master of disguise, chemist, criminologist, proto-forensic expert, knowledge of London second to none. Hell, the first story of his has Watson going through what he doesn't know as a shorter list!Now that brings up the question: what about characters like Batman? Why is he a superhero when he has no real powers? The answer has to do with the breadth of his skills just as much as it has to do with how ridiculously good he is at any one skill. No real life human has the time to learn all the shit he knows, and he must have some kind of exceptional mental abilities to learn and apply all of them. He's as good of a detective as Sherlock Holmes, an exceptional martial artist, he has ninja/commando training, he's in peak physical condition, he has acrobatics and parkour training, some incarnations show him with sleight of hand skills, he can fly a plane comparable to a jet fighter, helicopters, he knows about a dozen languages, he's a decent businessman at the least, he has engineering skills to build things like the batmobile and Batman Beyond suit, he's trained in forensics (including criminal psychology), and perhaps most perplexing of all, he can consistently take down most criminals without killing them. That's shit is awfully difficult for a normal martial artist to accomplish. Knowing all of that makes Batman a one man police force. And its totes unrealistic. That is what makes him a match for characters with actual superhuman powers like the rest of the Justice League. That and his decision to fight crime while wearing a bat-themed outfit.
Many pilots do have special suits they wear for protection while piloting mecha, but many of them are designed to look superheroic on their own. Voltes V/COmbatler V pilots have big "V"s on their chest as prototyping for Sentai (remember, the Sentai took from the Anime first and foremost, it wasn't until the 80s that things started to become more distinct between them) and regularly have to fight outside their mechs. Kabuto Koji, the pilot of Mazinger Z, has FINS on his head for god's sake. These aren't practical, they are the shine of the knights in shining armor that superheroes tend to be.I also say that yes, you are applying the "iconic look" qualification both too broadly and too narrowly when it comes to Super Robot pilots. The issue is that probably most characters in visual media follow the Limited Wardrobe trope, because it helps the audience learn to identify characters on the spot no matter the circumstances. Its especially helpful in cartooning and animation because the artists sometimes draw faces off-model without meaning to, and this helps negate that problem. Bart Simpson only seems to have one shirt, except when there is a change of season or location that's significant enough to justify having him change into something else. And yet, even then live action characters tend to stick to one iconic set of clothing too, and the writers expect (correctly) that the audience won't notice because its fiction. Hell, even some real people do it for various reasons, like my brother in law wearing black everything because he's both colorblind and dedicated to Goth fashion.
Well, the 2004 version of Ninja Gaiden is part of the same universe as Dead or Alive, and while Ryu is your stereotypical Ninja, he certainly has a unique look and contemporary adventures dealing with supernatural enemies as well as interacting with the DOA stuff. I was always considering him, but the connection between the two franchises took me for a loop. Ayane shows up in one of the Ninja Gaiden games, so that does drag her family in.
Are you thinking the movie, the manga, or the anime?Even then, the Major has hacking skills so extreme she can scare some of her co-workers, what with puppeting multiple bodies.
If I'm remembering it right.
So, here's Genocyber in a nutshell: its Elfen Lied crossed with Akira with sort-of mecha action, and the director of the anime decided to fuck with the source material by taking the human element that is so crucial to tolerating the gore and body horror of those other two anime, and throwing it into a wood chipper. Basically the guy was going through a mysanthropic phase, because he later worked on Full Metal Alchemist, and that wasn't nearly such a bad adaptation of the manga. The main characters in the anime are recognizably prototypes to Lucy's split personalities: you have a wild child who never speaks (except the one time) with psychic powers she mostly uses for harmless things. However, she's powerful enough to nuke a city with her telekinesis when she loses it. Her sister is a cyborg with the same psychic powers, but less powerful, and she's a fucking psycho who gets tortured by her father. Their father is a scientist who experimented on them in the name of creating super soldiers, and he needs the psycho sister to retrieve the mute sister after she somehow manages to escape his lab. Meanwhile there are cyborg bounty hunters sent by his financiers also hunting the wild child who eventually kill the scientist for reasons. So yeah. Its basically Elfen Lied, only more horrible and without any of the commentary on the nature of prejudice (such as it was in EL). And in the manga, the characters weren't like this. The scientist genuinely cared for his daughters. The mute sister isn't mute. The psychopathic sister isn't a psycho and is in a wheelchair rather than being a cyborg. Apparently its unfinished and just as gory, and TVTropes says its basically a long torture session for the two main protagonists, but it doesn't hate humanity... as much as the anime? I guess?I actually haven't seen that episode yet...
Oh lord what have I done?
Well, given the "Digital world/Real world" divide that defines the franchise, a bit of Multiverse shenanigans is almost impossible to avoid. But its not unique, either, since DC and Marvel also have multiverses. We don't have to interact with all that, though.Tamers, I think, would be the most seemless fit, but there is a whole Digimon Multiverse BS to worry about.
So, I think just Tamers might be enough since that is most explicitly "The Real World".
Genocyber, yeah, I don't think anyone in it qualifies as a hero. At best you have dead people, people who are about to die, people who deserve to die, and Gynocyber itself. You can kind of understand why the titular monster wants everyone dead, though that doesn't equate to heroism.Late edit: though i think my definition loosely included a base idea of heroic behavior that might just save us from Lucy...and/or genocyber.
If not, we have a threat worse than Kyubey!
Ah, of course, that explains a lot.But I wanted to get Godzilla in as a Superhero, so I defined the criteria for that effect.
Don't forget the ruins of the Moon Kingdom from Sailor Moon.Majin Gojira wrote: 2019-05-09 04:33pmSounds like the Blue Area of the Moon expands.How does that interact with The Inhumans, who already have a base (civilization?) on the moon?
First. We're pulling characters from Super which was the last time Gohan wore the Great Saiyaman outfit, even pulling from the strictest list of supporting characters from Gohan's perspective that means we're bringing in the following:Majin Gojira wrote: 2019-05-02 03:44pm
Okay: The Who. Since this isn't about Goku's life, but Gohan, this severely curtails who shows up. At the minimum, it cuts Tien, Chaotzu, and Yamcha.
That doesn't matter though. Unlike Superman who's had many authors tell his story which leads to outlier examples of power to be pruned, Goku is written by one man and shown to constantly attain power beyond what even the gods think he can manage. The quest for ever more power is also central to Goku's character so even if he gets brought in by Gohan putting a hard cap on him breaks his character and thus simple cannot be allowed.Well, not as strong as you think. While symbolically, Goku is meant to "Burst through limits", and symbolically, Superman is meant to be basically limitless "The man who won't fail you."
With a Cap on Superman, we have a Cap on Goku.
Again, no. We know that in canon Goku's Super Saiyan forms multiply his base power as do techniques such as the Kaio-ken and thanks to official sources we even know the exact ratio of that multiplication and can peg known feats of strength to those specific power levels.And that leaves us with a Goku<Superman.
At least in terms of raw power.
No. Just no. Goku can already match Superman in feats of speed and strength even in a capped world but he can also sense energy, teleport, heal himself from death (DBS when he revives himself after letting Hit kill him), use telekinesis, rapidly adapt to enemy fighting styles (he figured out Hit's Time Skip attack within minutes of first facing it and learned the Kamehameha from seeing it performed once), the Mafuba technique, the solar flare technique, plus the obvious transformations and energy blasts. On top of that, if he wanted to learn them (and could find a teacher) he has the capability of busting out things like split form, growing multiple limbs, and shapeshifting as all of those things just require ki control and training in the DBZ universe. Plus he knows the fusion dance and I assume that technique would break the power cap by its very nature. Then he brings another uncapped ability, the Spirit Bomb which gathers energy from others into an attack, so even in a capped world, he has a Supes buster of an attack.The short of it is Goku would operate on the Wonder Woman tier of "Better fighter, but less raw stats" as it were.
Except that Frieza also destroyed Vegeta without resorting to the technique used on Namek. He did that with a giant energy ball with absolutely zero subtly or technique involved. Impressive considering that Vegeta was a super-Earth with 10x the Earth's surface gravity... Not to mention that we've seen low PL characters (Jackie Chun with a base PL of under 200 and Piccolo with a PL of approx. 1,500) in Dragonball vaporize the Moon on a whim. These are the pipsqueaks on the DBZ universe too...What about it? You can still total a planet without blowing it to smithereens. What makes them so dangerous is that if they do not focus a blast, it can be as bad as a bad asteroid impact (Probably not KT Boundary, but close enough for it to not matter).
And Frieza? Adapted, he would send a ball of energy into the core of a planet, destroy the core, and through that, cause the planet to blow itself apart.
Hell, it better explains what happened on Namek.
And other planet busters would be along those lines.
I mean, you're right... but it really just goes to show how versatile the Superhero genre is, that literally anything becomes part of it so long as the main protagonist fulfills the archetype. You're also somewhat wrong, in that Robin Hood fails to qualify on just one criteria: his adventures took place hundreds of years ago rather than in the present or near future. That's actually one of the most important criteria, in that a hero can fail any of the other three and still be a superhero, but if their adventures took place in the past or in a medieval setting, the storyjust gets labeled Fantasy.GuppyShark wrote: 2019-05-13 07:00amThis thread is interesting, but trying to shoehorn in non-superhero genres hasn't been helpful. There's more than enough insanity in that genre alone, no need to further weigh it down. By the criteria as written Robin of Locksley qualifies (Extroardinary archer, special outfit of green tights, Robin Hood as a superhero name).
I... don't think that's what he meant when he said that the "best" version of the character appears. That would be like saying the "best" version of Superman is Superman Prime. But Maijin Gojira clearly said DCAU Superman was the "best" version, and the cap on how powerful a character can be when they appear (though not IMO a peak they cannot surpass with time). So rather than interpreting it as "the character at their best" he means "the version of the character that fans consider the most well written". I know, its vague and more than a little subjective, but the existence of adaptations, spinoffs, and reboots does make it necessary.Jub wrote: 2019-05-13 08:38amSpeaking of Sailor Moon, are we getting her most iconic form from early in the series, Eternal Sailor Moon from towards the end of the series, or full on Neo-Queen Serenity who's effectively the ruler of Earth? Given the amount of time travel, reincarnation, and other such nonsense in Sailor Moon we could easily end up with all 3 of her Sailor Soldier forms and Neo-Queen Serenity as distinct heroes.
Assuming we only get one and are supposed to take the character at their best, I think we get Neo-Queen Serenity even though this means she's no longer a Sailor Scout and can't transform into Sailor Moon. It's the rare case where the retired hero is more powerful than they were when they wore a costume. This also makes her the ruler of Earth and sets into motion the creation of Crystal Tokyo and the drastic lifespan extensions that will affect most of the planet by the 30th century.
That might toss a pretty large wrench into things, especially for the Madoka team.
That gets a bit harder when looking outside of American comics as most other characters will come from a more unified source. Plus, for something like Sailor Moon or Dragon Ball who's perspective do we look at when we say 'best' western or Japanese arc for those characters? Often views differ drastically between North America and Japan on things like favorite character and favorite arc.Formless wrote: 2019-05-13 05:19pmI... don't think that's what he meant when he said that the "best" version of the character appears. That would be like saying the "best" version of Superman is Superman Prime. But Maijin Gojira clearly said DCAU Superman was the "best" version, and the cap on how powerful a character can be when they appear (though not IMO a peak they cannot surpass with time). So rather than interpreting it as "the character at their best" he means "the version of the character that fans consider the most well written". I know, its vague and more than a little subjective, but the existence of adaptations, spinoffs, and reboots does make it necessary.
They have to merge with a timeline where Sailor Moon has already been established in that case and if they can violate the power cap everybody else wold as well. Heck, it's possible that we could find a way to wiggle one Haruhi Suzumiya in as a super to counter that nonsense.Alternatively, no, if you consider the "best" version of Sailor Moon to be the Neo-Queen, the Madoka team would get Madoka as a literal god or even Homura's final transformation... and that clearly violates the intentions of the power cap.
That would probably bring in her second form after it was decoupled from her needing the Holy Grail to obtain it as that takes place close to the middle of the series. It's less iconic to people who only ever caught a few episodes back in the 90's but presents a good mid point for Usagi as a character in terms of personal growth and power.IMO, as someone who knows little about Sailor Moon, I would say the most iconic version of the character by far is Usagi when she was just a Sailor Scout, as that is what she is during the middle of her journey and not the end of it. That's the version of the character the audience spent the most time with. Time travel and all that certain leads to causality issues... but hey, other characters can time travel as well (e.g. The Flash), so that was always going to be a problem.
Goku's journey is hardly over as of Super but some fans would probably argue that Z had stronger arcs while others would argue that the series lost its way after the the time skip that started what us gaijin call DBZ. In this case, if we're using the Great Saiyaman loophole we'd have to choose from either post Cell Saga Z or Dragon Ball Super in or after the Future Trunks Saga either of which set them right at the power level cap.Power level problems due to a character growing over time seem to be less of an issue with American superheroes because their stories seem to assume they are as powerful in the beginning as they ever will be; while the Japanese superheroes tend to grow more powerful with training, experience, and character growth due to plot. Goku is a classic example, but even in Power Rangers the plot often leads them to obtaining more effective equipment (new Zords and so on) to fight their current enemies. I don't think this is a problem, but the character should probably appear as they are either at the beginning or middle of the journey, especially if they are part of a never-ending franchise like Dragon Ball. I don't object to Goku being in the RAR, but what transformations he has depends entirely on which story arc you pull him from; Goku during the Cell Saga has way more options than during the Saiyan Saga.
When I wrote my post, I went back to the OP to confirm the rules. You only need 3/4 criteria, so he's in. Otherwise I would have thought of someone else.Formless wrote: 2019-05-13 05:19pmYou're also somewhat wrong, in that Robin Hood fails to qualify on just one criteria: his adventures took place hundreds of years ago rather than in the present or near future. That's actually one of the most important criteria, in that a hero can fail any of the other three and still be a superhero, but if their adventures took place in the past or in a medieval setting, the storyjust gets labeled Fantasy.
Well, that doesn't appear to be how Maijin Gojira has been playing it, since he quashed the original version of the Guardians of the Galaxy for being too far into the future. He seems to be treating that one like a hard qualifier if the character's adventures are separated in time by centuries. Just saying, not my RAR, but I can see the logic in that.GuppyShark wrote: 2019-05-13 07:15pmWhen I wrote my post, I went back to the OP to confirm the rules. You only need 3/4 criteria, so he's in. Otherwise I would have thought of someone else.
That's not entirely true. Light Novels and manga are often adapted into anime and vice-verse, and with adaptation comes changes to the source material. This is quite visible in Dragon Ball, for instance, where many differences exist between the manga and anime (e.g. the famous "Its over 9000!" line was a change; Goku's original Power Level was merely 5000, noticeably lower than Vegeta who was, IIRC, 7000). Some Toku series also get manga adaptations, like Kamen Rider, and the difference between live action and hand drawn comics means the action sequences can contain serious differences. So no, the only real difference East VS West is that manga are less likely to be outright rebooted than comics are in the States. But anime do get reboots from time to time, like Dragon Ball Kai, Sailor Moon Crystal, and the JoJo's Bizarre Adventure anime.Jub wrote: 2019-05-13 06:06pmThat gets a bit harder when looking outside of American comics as most other characters will come from a more unified source.
Oh, I don't disagree-- its absolutely subjective, and I know many people who have read it will say the Dragon Ball manga is better than the anime. Hell, I know people who will reflexively say a manga is always better than its anime adaptation for some unholy reason. That's why I've mostly avoided talking about specific heroes, as that sidesteps the issue entirely. Whether Goku is super powerful is, to me, less interesting than whether Tien brings along his martial arts school where Ki techniques are taught, as that would cause Ki based martial arts to spread to the rest of the world and help people who aren't born with mutant genes, mage genes, alien blood, money for cybernetics, etc. to have a chance in a post-superhero world.Plus, for something like Sailor Moon or Dragon Ball who's perspective do we look at when we say 'best' western or Japanese arc for those characters? Often views differ drastically between North America and Japan on things like favorite character and favorite arc.
The timeline places their appearance a month after the appearance of Sailor Moon, so there is that. The thing is, I agree the cap should be there in the beginning, I just don't think it needs to be a "forever" kind of thing given how important continued character growth is to so many Japanese hero narratives. And hell, a few American superhero narratives, for that matter, like Tony Stark's constant upgrading of the suit or the X-Men's school for gifted mutants literally being a school. For Mutants.They have to merge with a timeline where Sailor Moon has already been established in that case and if they can violate the power cap everybody else wold as well. Heck, it's possible that we could find a way to wiggle one Haruhi Suzumiya in as a super to counter that nonsense.
Power Levels Are BullshitJub wrote: 2019-05-13 10:02amAgain, no. We know that in canon Goku's Super Saiyan forms multiply his base power as do techniques such as the Kaio-ken and thanks to official sources we even know the exact ratio of that multiplication and can peg known feats of strength to those specific power levels.
Pretty much. It's not about power, it's about quality of character.Formless wrote: 2019-05-13 05:19pmI... don't think that's what he meant when he said that the "best" version of the character appears. That would be like saying the "best" version of Superman is Superman Prime. But Maijin Gojira clearly said DCAU Superman was the "best" version, and the cap on how powerful a character can be when they appear (though not IMO a peak they cannot surpass with time). So rather than interpreting it as "the character at their best" he means "the version of the character that fans consider the most well written". I know, its vague and more than a little subjective, but the existence of adaptations, spinoffs, and reboots does make it necessary.Jub wrote: 2019-05-13 08:38amSpeaking of Sailor Moon, are we getting her most iconic form from early in the series, Eternal Sailor Moon from towards the end of the series, or full on Neo-Queen Serenity who's effectively the ruler of Earth? Given the amount of time travel, reincarnation, and other such nonsense in Sailor Moon we could easily end up with all 3 of her Sailor Soldier forms and Neo-Queen Serenity as distinct heroes.
Assuming we only get one and are supposed to take the character at their best, I think we get Neo-Queen Serenity even though this means she's no longer a Sailor Scout and can't transform into Sailor Moon. It's the rare case where the retired hero is more powerful than they were when they wore a costume. This also makes her the ruler of Earth and sets into motion the creation of Crystal Tokyo and the drastic lifespan extensions that will affect most of the planet by the 30th century.
That might toss a pretty large wrench into things, especially for the Madoka team.
Alternatively, no, if you consider the "best" version of Sailor Moon to be the Neo-Queen, the Madoka team would get Madoka as a literal god or even Homura's final transformation... and that clearly violates the intentions of the power cap.
IMO, as someone who knows little about Sailor Moon, I would say the most iconic version of the character by far is Usagi when she was just a Sailor Scout, as that is what she is during the middle of her journey and not the end of it. That's the version of the character the audience spent the most time with. Time travel and all that certain leads to causality issues... but hey, other characters can time travel as well (e.g. The Flash), so that was always going to be a problem.
The only reason I'm a bit harder with that 4th rule is rather simple: If a character is in the distant future or distant past, what's the point of how they are affecting things now since, by and large, they don't affect things long term in their own universes? Especially with the future stuff.Formless wrote: 2019-05-13 07:39pmWell, that doesn't appear to be how Maijin Gojira has been playing it, since he quashed the original version of the Guardians of the Galaxy for being too far into the future. He seems to be treating that one like a hard qualifier if the character's adventures are separated in time by centuries. Just saying, not my RAR, but I can see the logic in that.GuppyShark wrote: 2019-05-13 07:15pmWhen I wrote my post, I went back to the OP to confirm the rules. You only need 3/4 criteria, so he's in. Otherwise I would have thought of someone else.
Also, Dragon Ball has several live-action movies made in Hong Kong.That's not entirely true. Light Novels and manga are often adapted into anime and vice-verse, and with adaptation comes changes to the source material. This is quite visible in Dragon Ball, for instance, where many differences exist between the manga and anime (e.g. the famous "Its over 9000!" line was a change; Goku's original Power Level was merely 5000, noticeably lower than Vegeta who was, IIRC, 7000). Some Toku series also get manga adaptations, like Kamen Rider, and the difference between live action and hand drawn comics means the action sequences can contain serious differences. So no, the only real difference East VS West is that manga are less likely to be outright rebooted than comics are in the States. But anime do get reboots from time to time, like Dragon Ball Kai, Sailor Moon Crystal, and the JoJo's Bizarre Adventure anime.Jub wrote: 2019-05-13 06:06pmThat gets a bit harder when looking outside of American comics as most other characters will come from a more unified source.
Oh! I actually have a stupid mixed world concept for this:Oh, I don't disagree-- its absolutely subjective, and I know many people who have read it will say the Dragon Ball manga is better than the anime. Hell, I know people who will reflexively say a manga is always better than its anime adaptation for some unholy reason. That's why I've mostly avoided talking about specific heroes, as that sidesteps the issue entirely. Whether Goku is super powerful is, to me, less interesting than whether Tien brings along his martial arts school where Ki techniques are taught, as that would cause Ki based martial arts to spread to the rest of the world and help people who aren't born with mutant genes, mage genes, alien blood, money for cybernetics, etc. to have a chance in a post-superhero world.Plus, for something like Sailor Moon or Dragon Ball who's perspective do we look at when we say 'best' western or Japanese arc for those characters? Often views differ drastically between North America and Japan on things like favorite character and favorite arc.
And, of course, the World of Cardboard speech.The timeline places their appearance a month after the appearance of Sailor Moon, so there is that. The thing is, I agree the cap should be there in the beginning, I just don't think it needs to be a "forever" kind of thing given how important continued character growth is to so many Japanese hero narratives. And hell, a few American superhero narratives, for that matter, like Tony Stark's constant upgrading of the suit or the X-Men's school for gifted mutants literally being a school. For Mutants.They have to merge with a timeline where Sailor Moon has already been established in that case and if they can violate the power cap everybody else wold as well. Heck, it's possible that we could find a way to wiggle one Haruhi Suzumiya in as a super to counter that nonsense.
That's completely untrue the only reason they were dropped was that Toriyama realized he inflated the numbers too quickly and that going past Namek with them would quickly mean those numbers inflating to ridiculous levels. Those numbers are canon and useful for determining the boost given by something like a Kaio Ken or Super Saiyan form. Your insistence otherwise doesn't change a damned thing.Majin Gojira wrote: 2019-05-14 05:46pmPower Levels Are Bullshit
The only reason they were introduced was to be discredited and shown to be flawed and useless.
Dragon Ball, as a rule, runs fast and loose with solid meanings on top of that, so don't expect a straightforward adaptation even in this.
Who decided this? I know a lot of 90's kids love TAS to a great degree but I've seen people cite their favorite versions of Batman as being from specific comics or animated feature films.Pretty much. It's not about power, it's about quality of character.
Like, when presented with the Brave and the Bold and Animated Series versions of Batman, the first is clearly the most powerful of them (What with the Transformable Batmobile/Bat-Mecha), but Animated Series covers the best aspects of his character.
No, fuck that noise. Western comics aren't some ideal to aspire to and there's no reason to punch up or streamline a character from a manga or anime just because they don't follow comic conventions. Superheros aren't just from a specific type of western media.For characters from other countries or ones that have only had one writer, imagine them being incorporated into the best of the best adaptations of superhero comic form. Streamlined, punched up, slightly modernized, etc.
Why should we follow that abritrary rule and more to the point why is Superman at a very specific power level your benchmark for how strong a hero can be while staying interesting? You seem to be stacking this aginst non-western hell non-North America heroes.And, of course, the World of Cardboard speech.
I think you are right, characters can improve over time, but keep in mind how they would start. In short, characters are generally much weaker than their comic counterparts.
Or, if you really want to twist it in your head. Imagine the character appearing as a guest star in an episode of insert appropriate series here generally taken as a good adaptation of western comic books.
I enjoy characters from manga more than I've ever enjoyed a comic book character so why should I have to westernize them? So what if Goku or Saitama is stronger than Superman neither of those two share his values or his desire to fight crime. They'll simply take care of the big save the world events and let him deal with areas more within his values and capabilities.Like, Dragon Ball Z and Superman the Animated Series or X-Men the Animated Series and My Hero Academia.
Or, in another way, how Insert well-regarded writer here would write them in a western style. Sort of like the Cyborg 009 comic by F.J. Desanto and Marcus To.
Yes, that is a real thing. And it's a pretty decent read.
I'm of the "Death of the Author" school of literary thought. And what's put on the page is the guys relying on scouters end up repeatedly underestimating their foes to their detriment.Jub wrote: 2019-05-14 07:35pmThat's completely untrue the only reason they were dropped was that Toriyama realized he inflated the numbers too quickly and that going past Namek with them would quickly mean those numbers inflating to ridiculous levels. Those numbers are canon and useful for determining the boost given by something like a Kaio Ken or Super Saiyan form. Your insistence otherwise doesn't change a damned thing.
I limited myself to two examples to make the point. I love both series, but you cannot deny that BTAS has better critical acclaim.Who decided this? I know a lot of 90's kids love TAS to a great degree but I've seen people cite their favorite versions of Batman as being from specific comics or animated feature films.
Dude, if anything, I'm hyping up the Animated and Film adaptations of note, not 'Western Comics' as a whole.No, fuck that noise. Western comics aren't some ideal to aspire to and there's no reason to punch up or streamline a character from a manga or anime just because they don't follow comic conventions. Superheros aren't just from a specific type of western media.
I set that rules to avoid the supreme bullshit comics can get up to. This isn't holding back Goku and friends, it's about holding back things FAR worse than him.Why should we follow that abritrary rule and more to the point why is Superman at a very specific power level your benchmark for how strong a hero can be while staying interesting? You seem to be stacking this aginst non-western hell non-North America heroes.
A few reasons.I enjoy characters from manga more than I've ever enjoyed a comic book character so why should I have to westernize them? So what if Goku or Saitama is stronger than Superman neither of those two share his values or his desire to fight crime. They'll simply take care of the big save the world events and let him deal with areas more within his values and capabilities.
The fuck do you get 'styles' from? The only key differences, beyond the more general cultural ones, between western and eastern comics are:On a less power scaling focused side, why can't Japanese or Russian or African heroes have different styles, ability sets, and growth curves than those from North America? None of these universes are designed to fit together, though DC and Marvel's main lines probably mesh fairly well, so let them all breath and stop trying to place arbitrary rules on power levels and styles of hero.
Freakazoid and Mystery Men are pretty kosher, but I think we'll have to draw a line at Funny Animals.
In that case, I foresee Justice doing a big recruitment drive with the League, to try and get as many DC/Marvel/whatever heroes wearing League rings in time for his plans.Majin Gojira wrote: 2019-05-14 08:48pmFreakazoid and Mystery Men are pretty kosher, but I think we'll have to draw a line at Funny Animals.
This is a deep rabbit hole, but not that deep
As to the X-Babies ... When you get down to it, they are just alternate versions of different characters, and since we're snagging "Only the best" as it were, they can be swept aside.
Then you have even less of a leg to stand on. The guys with the Scouters underestimated the Z-Fighters because they hadn't encountered people who could suppress their power levels before. Most of their foes tended to be either straight forward types who couldn't or didn't bother to do this or foes that were weak enough that this never bit them in the ass. You can't just say that because the bad guys with Scouters lost that PL was BS, that's not only disrespecting the author but flies in the face of what we see on screen.Majin Gojira wrote: 2019-05-14 08:43pmI'm of the "Death of the Author" school of literary thought. And what's put on the page is the guys relying on scouters end up repeatedly underestimating their foes to their detriment.
And?I limited myself to two examples to make the point. I love both series, but you cannot deny that BTAS has better critical acclaim.
You specifically said to imagine characters being streamlined and given a western comic style 'punching up' so don't try to backtrack on this.Dude, if anything, I'm hyping up the Animated and Film adaptations of note, not 'Western Comics' as a whole.
Why do we need their powers to be capped, streamlined, or otherwise altered from their source material?But this only really applies to powers, because, again, the key here is the personalities provide the overall most beloved source material.
Okay, what were the circumstances around him having done that? Is it a one-off effect that can be explained away or does he have some other reason why he doesn't bust that level of power out more often?I set that rules to avoid the supreme bullshit comics can get up to. This isn't holding back Goku and friends, it's about holding back things FAR worse than him.
I mean, one time, Hank Pym grew so big he punched Eternity in the Face. Eternity, the physical embodiment of the Entire Marvel Universe. He grew so big that he became literally size of the universe. And then he punched it in the face. That is some supreme bullshit right there.
Edit: Again, Hank Pym! He's nowhere near the 'strongest' anything! Yet, he did that!
Most of these feats are one-off shows of power usually with some special circumstance required to bring them about. If a character is naturally just that crazy OP, that's them let the chips fall where they may in the regard. There's no need to arbitrarily nerf out otherwise interesting abilities or power scale differences just because you find the edge cases too outlandish.So, I set something akin to TAS Superman as a Cap. Continent-lifting, and still ridiculous, but not "Seal tears in reality with static electricity" Bullshit. Or "Stop catch thousands of pieces of a shattered god hurtling in from the edges of the universe within the space of 5 seconds". Or "Recreating the Big Bang". Or...
1) ]Death Battle. To quote their comparison: "Holy Shit! Not Even Close!" [/url]
So some poorly researched shit that doesn't properly scale Goku's strength...
That's a terrible reason both in this RAR and in those games. Genres grow and change over time and by your logic, we should be using leaps tall buildings Superman as our benchmark instead of his current incarnations which are barely the same character.2) He is the first true "Superhero" to the point where he helps define the language around it. Sort of like how the Original Gundam is generally OP in games it shows up in, despite there being so many better mechs in the Gundam franchise alone it's ridiculous, it's a seed to seniority.
There are things stronger than Goku in comics, let him fight those instead of capping everybody.3) I wanted to give Goku a goal to work towards in this world. He's at his best when he strives. All thing Strive, man. Don't deny him of his striving. Striving, to me, is part of what makes him and other shonen characters interesting. Hell, it's KEY to them. Without that, they aren't really shonen.
Nope, we use his displayed on screen feats to power scale him and as a smaller fish in a now suddenly vast pond he finally gets his wish and can move on as a character. Isn't character growth something you said you wanted?4) Honestly, Saitama's probably the "strongest" of the three. If only because I'm sure part of his powers, given he is a gag character, would keep him in his frustrating limbo of One Punching. Somehow.
You literally said "magine them being incorporated into the best of the best adaptations of superhero comic form. Streamlined, punched up, slightly modernized, etc." and then went on to say "Imagine the character appearing as a guest star". Those quotes, taken with your apparent inability to accept that Superman isn't the be all and end all of heroes in the modern day it seems like you have a bias towards capital-c Comic Books and have set this rar up to ensure the supremacy of those characters.I only used that as an example to understand the 'power limiter'. Not the personality or style of the character. Who they are, why they do what they do, how they do what they do, that should port over no problem.
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On a lighter note, we do get the Mask both the magical artifact and the character in this universe. Depending on if a different name and tone make it count as a distinct character we may also get Masque and his mask as well.
Actually, they can both lower and raise their overall chi/ki. The Sayjans hadn't encountered people who could raise it by and large (though Vegeta had).Jub wrote: 2019-05-14 09:28pm Then you have even less of a leg to stand on. The guys with the Scouters underestimated the Z-Fighters because they hadn't encountered people who could suppress their power levels before. Most of their foes tended to be either straight forward types who couldn't or didn't bother to do this or foes that were weak enough that this never bit them in the ass. You can't just say that because the bad guys with Scouters lost that PL was BS, that's not only disrespecting the author but flies in the face of what we see on screen.
It's not about the strongest.And?
Mostly?Why do we need their powers to be capped, streamlined, or otherwise altered from their source material?
"But that didn't really count!"Okay, what were the circumstances around him having done that? Is it a one-off effect that can be explained away or does he have some other reason why he doesn't bust that level of power out more often?
And those that aren't?Most of these feats are one-off shows of power usually with some special circumstance required to bring them about.
Hey, remember that time Roshi blew up the moon? Remember he has a "Power level" of 139/180?So some poorly researched shit that doesn't properly scale Goku's strength...
Thank goodness the example of Goku wasn't in the original rar! It was me trying to grapple with Dragon Ball's ridiculousness.That's a terrible reason both in this RAR and in those games. Genres grow and change over time and by your logic, we should be using leaps tall buildings Superman as our benchmark instead of his current incarnations which are barely the same character.
The majority of those things don't punch. Fighting them wouldn't be as fun for anyone, not Goku, nor 'readers' as it were.There are things stronger than Goku in comics, let him fight those instead of capping everybody.
I wanted Goku to grow because he is a shoenen character, and that is something that defines the 'battle' series stories.Nope, we use his displayed on screen feats to power scale him and as a smaller fish in a now suddenly vast pond he finally gets his wish and can move on as a character. Isn't character growth something you said you wanted?
Clearly, you missed my meaning. You seem to be missing the forest for the trees with this whole discussion.You literally said "Imagine them being incorporated into the best of the best adaptations of superhero comic form. Streamlined, punched up, slightly modernized, etc." and then went on to say "Imagine the character appearing as a guest star". Those quotes, taken with your apparent inability to accept that Superman isn't the be all and end all of heroes in the modern day it seems like you have a bias towards capital-c Comic Books and have set this rar up to ensure the supremacy of those characters.
Sounds like Thor has another reason to be mad at Loki!On a lighter note, we do get the Mask both the magical artifact and the character in this universe. Depending on if a different name and tone make it count as a distinct character we may also get Masque and his mask as well.
Answer me this then: what does a power level of "1" mean? What does a power level of "5000" mean? What does a Power Level of "9000" mean? What are any of these numbers actually referring to? Watts? Joules?Jub wrote:Those numbers are canon and useful for determining the boost given by something like a Kaio Ken or Super Saiyan form. Your insistence otherwise doesn't change a damned thing.
Man, I need to watch Mystery Men...FaxModem1 wrote: 2019-05-14 09:21pmIn that case, I foresee Justice doing a big recruitment drive with the League, to try and get as many DC/Marvel/whatever heroes wearing League rings in time for his plans.Majin Gojira wrote: 2019-05-14 08:48pmFreakazoid and Mystery Men are pretty kosher, but I think we'll have to draw a line at Funny Animals.
This is a deep rabbit hole, but not that deep
As to the X-Babies ... When you get down to it, they are just alternate versions of different characters, and since we're snagging "Only the best" as it were, they can be swept aside.
A lot of heroes would agree with consolidation, and I'm curious if Thom and the Dark Hero can stop that many brainwashed heroes.