Could slow zombies ever really defeat the military?

[Q99]

If you're ever in a situation where it's unrealistic to get headshots, sweeping a machinegun around at knee level will turn a lot of walkers into a lot of crawlers, which are much easier to finish off with low risk.

[Esquire]

If you're in a situation without a competent marksman, how do you expect to have access to automatic weapons? Machine guns are not exactl something you can pick up at Target.

[Zaune]

Define "competent marksman". Headshots are no easy feat when you're at a comfortable distance from your target and using a long-gun with a good scope and a bipod, shooting at humans who can be induced to retreat or at least halt their advance and find some cover. When you're at less than a hundred yards and using iron sights to plink at an advancing wall of utterly relentless creatures who will not break no matter how many of them you kill it'd be a hundred times harder.

That's a manageable problem if you have the time and resources to throw at establishing a solid defensive position, but a county sheriff's department whose "SWAT team" is anyone who has an AR-15 at home or a scratch company of clerks, cooks and MPs with whatever the combat arms guys left behind when they deployed abroad isn't going to have much of either.

[Zeropoint]

In my experience, someone with nothing more than basic firearms competence (me), a rest, and a low-magnification scope (2.5x) should have no trouble shooting a two-inch (5cm) group at 100 yards (91.5m). Allowing for both some adrenaline rush but also professional training in keeping one's shit together, and the fact that the zombies aren't trying to be evasive, I'd expect that military forces should be able to score headshots on zombies with at worst a 25% success rate.

On the other hand, I've heard that military issue M4 carbines tend to be really sloppy from heavy use and indifferent users, so there may be some accuracy issues there?

[Block]

100 yards is laughably easy for all but the very worst soldiers.

[bilateralrope]

In my experience, someone with nothing more than basic firearms competence (me), a rest, and a low-magnification scope (2.5x) should have no trouble shooting a two-inch (5cm) group at 100 yards (91.5m). Allowing for both some adrenaline rush but also professional training in keeping one's shit together, and the fact that the zombies aren't trying to be evasive, I'd expect that military forces should be able to score headshots on zombies with at worst a 25% success rate.

On the other hand, I've heard that military issue M4 carbines tend to be really sloppy from heavy use and indifferent users, so there may be some accuracy issues there?

How quickly could they throw out the headshots ?

[biostem]

In my experience, someone with nothing more than basic firearms competence (me), a rest, and a low-magnification scope (2.5x) should have no trouble shooting a two-inch (5cm) group at 100 yards (91.5m). Allowing for both some adrenaline rush but also professional training in keeping one's shit together, and the fact that the zombies aren't trying to be evasive, I'd expect that military forces should be able to score headshots on zombies with at worst a 25% success rate.

On the other hand, I've heard that military issue M4 carbines tend to be really sloppy from heavy use and indifferent users, so there may be some accuracy issues there?

How quickly could they throw out the headshots ?

I'm a fairly inexperienced shooter, but with a .22 rifle, I was able to place every shot within an 8"x8" square, at 25 yards, with just iron sights, while standing. This was using a semi-automatic rifle, with a 10-round magazine, even while pulling the trigger as fast as I can.

I'm not using the above statement to say that I'm any good, just that it isn't a hard feat to accomplish. 25 yards is the furthest I've shot, as that was the limit of the range I was on. The lower recoil and lack of wind, (it was an indoor rage), probably didn't hurt, either.

Still, even assuming well-worn weapons, a group of professional shoulders shouldn't have a problem delivering headshots well before the zombies get into melee range.

[jwl]

I think the main problem with things like headshots normally is that you have a moving target, but these are slow zombies.

[Purple]

Especially if you can throw a hand grenade first to turn the slow shambling target into a pitifully slow crawling one.

[Zwinmar]

Why would I worry about head shots when they are easily drawn into a mine laden kill zone?

[Purple]

Why would I worry about head shots when they are easily drawn into a mine laden kill zone?

I imagine because mining areas in your own back yard tends to not be a good idea overall. The zombies are not a real threat anyway. But clerical errors do happen and mine fields can get misplaced in these situations. And unexploded or improperly removed ordnance can end up being a far greater threat than the Z's ever were.

[Zwinmar]

I was thinking more about command detonated mines, i.e. claymores, than the static defence though those world work as well. Hell, the old roman defences would work great also.

[LaCroix]

I shoot my .303 outside, and 4 inch groups at 300 m with iron sights are achievable for anyone. Only after that, magnification becomes a necessity for reliable headshots. Most military rifles (5.xxmm) will not be viable for longer ranges than that, anyway, and beyond 300m, wind is becoming an issue even for larger calibre.

At 200m, missing a head is becoming difficult for a stationary target if you keep calm. Even rushed, at 100m it should still be quite manageable.

Also, you are aiming at a mass of heads - if you miss the target, you'll probably be taking out a zombie shuffeling somewhere behind it. And when you hit, you'll be taking out your target, the one behind him, and maybe even the third, as well, even with small calibre rifles.

[Thanas]

I was thinking more about command detonated mines, i.e. claymores, than the static defence though those world work as well. Hell, the old roman defences would work great also.

Caltrops everywere and then long spears to finish them up....yep, might work.

[JamesStaley]

How many zombies are we talking about? Hundreds, thousands, or the 90% of the planet?

[biostem]

How many zombies are we talking about? Hundreds, thousands, or the 90% of the planet?

I think part of my original point/question was whether it could actually progress that far. I'd wager that even a bunch of civilians, assuming they're able to maintain a modicum of sanity, and armed with semi-auto rifles, would be able to put down even a few hundred slow zombies.

[LastShadow]

Variable answer:

Variant 1. Overall standard response. We quarantine all the infected, in an attempt to find a cure, effectively making ever growing herds accidentally, all it takes is one unfortunate accident and a good sized group begins over running the facility. Minor - major panic ensues as, people are seemingly shambling forward while taking bullets to the chest that would stop a normal human. With most forces tied up at other facilities like that one, the damage begins to spread, slowly but surely.

Variant 2. Slow progress of the virus through bites. Damage being attributed to drug users, and /or the homeless. Bitten people are brought to hospitals, where they are later pronounced dead, the dead rise, proceeding to wreak havoc within the hospital causing more people to turn. Military and police officials are reluctant to open fire on these crowds at first due to moral implications and lack of knowledge of whats happening, they just assume these people are sick. By the time the horrible realization sets in the damage has spread fairly well. Major military forces are again spread fairly thin in an attempt to contain the issues, allowing those small forces to be overrun.

Variant 3. Overall stupidity. Panic ensues, the virus is airborne, but mostly benign, until of course you die. People get locked into stadiums and other high capacity places "for their protection" essentially making massive breeding grounds for the undead to rise. One a**hole later that releases them for personal reasons/gains, and you have large herds falling on a somewhat unsuspecting groups of civilians and security typed personnel, aka cops and military.

Basically, you end up with many situations where even with proper procedure you start getting over run. Look at Fear the Walking Dead. It is a pretty good start to how an apocalypse would happen, slowly. With an unwillingness to bomb the homeland the spread is inevitable, especially without the knowledge of whats going on, and the knowledge of how to kill them.


Not to mention the drive of people to want to abandon their posts to go aid their families.

Overall defeat yes, complete destruction no. Some military will survive, but overall the undead will roam the earth.

[biostem]

LastShadow, I agree with much of what you said. The time it takes for people to basically give up any sense of timidity and do what needs to be done, is what really matters. Like you said, if the various police/military forces notice that only head shots work, issue standing orders to fire upon anyone not responding to simple hails when encountered, and don't hesitate to destroy any walkers, then things won't spread too far. Being the varied and unreliable humans that we are, there is likely to be a lot of hesitation and waffling before anyone takes that approach...

[LastShadow]

LastShadow, I agree with much of what you said. The time it takes for people to basically give up any sense of timidity and do what needs to be done, is what really matters. Like you said, if the various police/military forces notice that only head shots work, issue standing orders to fire upon anyone not responding to simple hails when encountered, and don't hesitate to destroy any walkers, then things won't spread too far. Being the varied and unreliable humans that we are, there is likely to be a lot of hesitation and waffling before anyone takes that approach...

Its fairly standard fair, we normally get introduced to Zombie movies when they are in either full swing or pretty darn close, which is one of the reasons i actually enjoy Fear the Walking dead so far. It provides something, that realistically nobody has touched upon so far.

But you are dead on with the waffling situation, we are highly indecisive, look at the somewhat recent issues regarding americans and Ebola. Against all common sense, and with no regarding to the possibility of an accident causing an outbreak here.

I also forgot the random pockets of a zombie outbreak (still presuming airborne and everyone has it like in the Walking dead), the people who panic and try to take the quick way out, turning in the suburbs, and attacking neighbors.

[biostem]

I'd love to see a zombie movie that more closely followed the Zombie Survival Guide - a series of disparate tales that span a good chunk of human history, and addressing how different groups in different parts of the world dealt with small to large zombie outbreaks.

[LastShadow]

I'd love to see a zombie movie that more closely followed the Zombie Survival Guide - a series of disparate tales that span a good chunk of human history, and addressing how different groups in different parts of the world dealt with small to large zombie outbreaks.

I am a big fan of that book, it was a mighty interesting read. I would suggest you look into the code of the Zombie pirate, it was a.....unique read, and a unique perspective.

[Flagg]

I'd love to see a movie titled 'WWZ' that stuck to even 1/3 of the books plot and kept the same "rules" (Spoiler

slow fuckers, headshots kill, spread only by a very strong virus through bites/bodily fluids entering open wounds that take time to kill and resurrect depending on severity, zombie brains have odd resistance to pressure changes, sudden or gradual, so that they can "survive" at the bottom of oceans and pressure waves from thermobaric weapons don't work as intended).

Spoiler

The military loses initially through not being prepared to fight zombies (because why would they be?) and the usual incompetence that comes with the "fighting the last war" mindset that essentially gets their asses kicked by themselves. Then after being pushed back, they start learning and hold the line at a certain point using geography as an advantage, adapt to fight the new enemy and ultimately defeat them.

Even better if the entire thing is seen through different POV's, either as a narrative or, as in the book,Spoiler

through interviews.

My dream version would essentially be an 8-10 part "mockumentary" Spoiler

using fake news reports (more awesome if you had real newscasters doing the "reporting"), "found footage" from both those who lived and who failed to, video of interviewees, military embedded camera crews, and gun footage.

Basically like your standard issue WW2 or Vietnam documentary but about the "Great Zombie War".

But thanks to the wonders of capitalism that likely won't happen since a studio decided to buy the title and make a run of the mill PG-13 action/semi-horror summer blockbuster and it made enough money they'll likely not give the rights up any time soon.

Spoilers tags for those who haven't read the book by Max Brooks which is light-years different from the movie, but may want to and not be totally spoiled by anything that isn't obvious from the title: 'WWZ: An Oral History of the Zombie War'.

[Flagg]

LastShadow, I agree with much of what you said. The time it takes for people to basically give up any sense of timidity and do what needs to be done, is what really matters. Like you said, if the various police/military forces notice that only head shots work, issue standing orders to fire upon anyone not responding to simple hails when encountered, and don't hesitate to destroy any walkers, then things won't spread too far. Being the varied and unreliable humans that we are, there is likely to be a lot of hesitation and waffling before anyone takes that approach...

Its fairly standard fair, we normally get introduced to Zombie movies when they are in either full swing or pretty darn close, which is one of the reasons i actually enjoy Fear the Walking dead so far. It provides something, that realistically nobody has touched upon so far.

But you are dead on with the waffling situation, we are highly indecisive, look at the somewhat recent issues regarding americans and Ebola. Against all common sense, and with no regarding to the possibility of an accident causing an outbreak here.

I also forgot the random pockets of a zombie outbreak (still presuming airborne and everyone has it like in the Walking dead), the people who panic and try to take the quick way out, turning in the suburbs, and attacking neighbors.

Yeah, I hate 90% of the criticism that 'Fear' gets because it's essentially people calling the characters stupid for not knowing "the rules" like everyone in ep1 of TWD did when Rick woke from his coma. In a lot of ways, he had it much easier than the cast of FTWD does, since they didn't have someone to tell him what's going on, what the rotting things attacking and eating people are, and how to put them down for good. It's just not a legitimate criticism of the show that "the characters aren't clairvoyant!!!". I mean if that part bothers you, why watch, since you had ample time to know what the premise was in the first place?

[LastShadow]

LastShadow, I agree with much of what you said. The time it takes for people to basically give up any sense of timidity and do what needs to be done, is what really matters. Like you said, if the various police/military forces notice that only head shots work, issue standing orders to fire upon anyone not responding to simple hails when encountered, and don't hesitate to destroy any walkers, then things won't spread too far. Being the varied and unreliable humans that we are, there is likely to be a lot of hesitation and waffling before anyone takes that approach...

Its fairly standard fair, we normally get introduced to Zombie movies when they are in either full swing or pretty darn close, which is one of the reasons i actually enjoy Fear the Walking dead so far. It provides something, that realistically nobody has touched upon so far.

But you are dead on with the waffling situation, we are highly indecisive, look at the somewhat recent issues regarding americans and Ebola. Against all common sense, and with no regarding to the possibility of an accident causing an outbreak here.

I also forgot the random pockets of a zombie outbreak (still presuming airborne and everyone has it like in the Walking dead), the people who panic and try to take the quick way out, turning in the suburbs, and attacking neighbors.

Yeah, I hate 90% of the criticism that 'Fear' gets because it's essentially people calling the characters stupid for not knowing "the rules" like everyone in ep1 of TWD did when Rick woke from his coma. In a lot of ways, he had it much easier than the cast of FTWD does, since they didn't have someone to tell him what's going on, what the rotting things attacking and eating people are, and how to put them down for good. It's just not a legitimate criticism of the show that "the characters aren't clairvoyant!!!". I mean if that part bothers you, why watch, since you had ample time to know what the premise was in the first place?

Exactly. Its a universe where zombie movies never happened, they dont know the rules. Rick didnt know, until someone told him. the people that told him didnt know at first either. Fear is a bit slow at first, im waiting for it to pick up the pace a bit. But overall i liked it. It shows that some tactics we would use if we didnt know better just dont work.

[FaxModem1]

Yeah, I hate 90% of the criticism that 'Fear' gets because it's essentially people calling the characters stupid for not knowing "the rules" like everyone in ep1 of TWD did when Rick woke from his coma. In a lot of ways, he had it much easier than the cast of FTWD does, since they didn't have someone to tell him what's going on, what the rotting things attacking and eating people are, and how to put them down for good. It's just not a legitimate criticism of the show that "the characters aren't clairvoyant!!!". I mean if that part bothers you, why watch, since you had ample time to know what the premise was in the first place?

For me it was more the weirdness with the military unit there. If the troops are staying up for 50 hours straight, how does the lieutenant have enough free time for golfing and a corporal have enough time for a love affair? Or why was the government trying to keep a lid on the disease so badly, even when riots were openly happening because people thought they were killing homeless instead of zombies, to the point that social order disintegrated due to the 'injustices' the cops were doing.