SDN World 3 Ship Design Thread

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Re: SDN World 3 Ship Design Thread

Postby Evincer » 2009-11-07 02:03pm

I'm posting a modification of what Steve approved as the fleet listing for Peru-Bolivia. The modifications are to reduce the amount of 10+ year old tonnage to 1 3/rd of the fleet instead of half, because all of the ships are below 10,000 tons in displacement and are therefore not capital ships or dreadnoughts.

Peru-Bolivia has a naval focus of 2, allowing for 300,000 tons. (BTW does this represent a limitation on the size of the starting fleet, or the total fleet size throughout the game as long as naval focus remains 2?)

Fleet listing

Cruiser Analogues

8 Seigfried-class-analogue Coastal Defense Ships (rebuilt) at 4,250 tons each = 34,000 tons
(laid down approx. 1902-1912, Commissioned well before 1915)

8 Sverige-class-analogue Coastal Defense Ships at 7125 tons each = 57,000 tons
Laid down 1915-1923

16 Total Cruiser-analogues = 91,000 tons

Cruisers

4 Birkenhead-class Cruisers at 5,440 tons each = 21,600 tons (reserve)
Commissioned 1915

Destroyers

20 Almirante Lynch-class destroyers (1911-1915) at 1,430 tons each
=28,600 tons

18 2,000 ton heavy destroyers = 36,000 tons
laid down 1920-1924

38 destroyers = 64,600 tons

Submarines

16 H-class light submarines at 400 tons each = 6,400 tons (reserve)
Laid down 1911-1914

8 Type U31 submarines at approx 900 tons each = 7,200 tons (reserve)
Laid down 1912-1914

16 Type U51/57/63 submarines at approx 1000 tons each = 16,000 tons
Laid down 1915-1916

2 Type U139 submarines at approximately 2000 tons each = 4,000 tons
Laid down beginning 1916

4 Type U46(a) submarines at approximately 2000 tons each = 8,000 tons
Laid down beginning 1918

8 L-class submarines at 890 tons each = 7,120 tons
Laid down 1916 [all of which are minelayers)

4 R-class hunter-killer submarines at 420 tons each = 1,680 tons

2 experimental submarines at 2,820 tons each = 5,640 tons
Laid-down 1921, Commissioned 1925

Total submarine tonnage = approximately 56,040

Torpedo Boats

20 765-ton torpedo boats commissioned 1910-1914 = 15,300 tons

Motor Torpedo Boats

750 MAS Boats 1915-1918 = 22,500 tons (or about 900 55-foot Coastal Motor Boats)

River Gunboats

10 1412-ton river gunboats commissioned 1900-1902 = 14,120 tons (Mainly stationed in the Upper Paraguay River)

12 560-ton modern river gunboats = 6720 tons

12 400-ton modern river gunboats = 4,800 tons

Total tonnage = 296, 680

Total tonnage 10 years old or more = 127, 220
(all ships below 10,000 tons, so only 1 3rd need to be 10 years old or older)

Auxilliaries

Minelayers

10 300-ton minelayers commissioned before 1915 = 3,000 tons

6 2,500 ton minelayers laid down 1911 = 15,000 tons

6 modern minelayers 2,600 tons each = 15,500 tons

Hospital ships

Oilers and coalers

Transports

Maybe some submarine tenders

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Re: SDN World 3 Ship Design Thread

Postby Norade » 2009-11-07 03:17pm

Look up a few posts and you'll find a link to all of my ships.
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Re: SDN World 3 Ship Design Thread

Postby Lascaris » 2009-11-07 06:33pm

Evincer wrote:Motor Torpedo Boats

750 MAS Boats 1915-1918 = 22,500 tons (or about 900 55-foot Coastal Motor Boats)



750??? I know the tonnage for each is low but the number is insane.

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Re: SDN World 3 Ship Design Thread

Postby Evincer » 2009-11-07 10:55pm

Hey, at least I didn't fill up 300,000 tons with MTBs!

Well, Steve approved a 400 MTB force, but I recalculated it after changes to fleet age rules.

If it's a problem, I can go back to 400 MTBs.

Keep in mind that they have been manufactured for at least a decade on a standarized design with incremental improvements.

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Re: SDN World 3 Ship Design Thread

Postby K. A. Pital » 2009-11-07 11:09pm

Germany did field a large MTB fleet, IIRC. Quite large. So I don't see a particular problem (servicing all those ships would be a nightmare though).
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Re: SDN World 3 Ship Design Thread

Postby Evincer » 2009-11-07 11:28pm

Since the MTBs have a limited range, I figure that they are deployed across the Bolivarian Union's long coast in a number of regional bases. So you're really talking about concentrations of 1-200 MTBs. Each base would have a servicing facility. It's a standardized design country-wide. So there'd be no single facility tasked with servicing 300+ MTBs.

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Re: SDN World 3 Ship Design Thread

Postby Fingolfin_Noldor » 2009-11-07 11:52pm

Rough general idea of the Byzantine Imperial Navy.

Hadrian class (South Carolina class) x 2 (Hadrian, Antoninus Pius)
Marcus Aurelius class (Delaware class) x 2 (Marcus Aurelius, Nerva)
Trajan class (Florida class) x 2 (Trajan, Vespasian)
Domitian class (Wyoming class) x 2 (Domitian, Titus)
Tiberius class (New York class) x 2 (Tiberius, Nero)
Diocletian class (Pennsylvania class) x 2 (Diocletian, Valentinian)
Aurelian class (New Mexico class) x 2 (Aurelian, Tacitus)
Valens class (Tennessee class) x 2 (Valens, Constantius
Constantine class (Colorado class) x 2 (Constantine, Augustus)
Justinian class (laid down in 1922, will be detailed later) x 2-4 (Justinian, Theodosius)

I will go detail the cruisers later, once I run through the available classes. Some of the above ships might be wiped off because of tonnage limitations.
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Re: SDN World 3 Ship Design Thread

Postby Slacker » 2009-11-08 12:02am

Evincer wrote:Hey, at least I didn't fill up 300,000 tons with MTBs!

Well, Steve approved a 400 MTB force, but I recalculated it after changes to fleet age rules.

If it's a problem, I can go back to 400 MTBs.

Keep in mind that they have been manufactured for at least a decade on a standarized design with incremental improvements.



I didn't fill up 300,000 tons with MTBs. I just pointed out to Steve how absolutely insane that'd be.

I actually 'only' have 350 of 'em, but then I do have enough other ships to at least put on a decent fleet review.
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Re: SDN World 3 Ship Design Thread

Postby K. A. Pital » 2009-11-08 12:06am

US classes? Doesn't it make sense for Byzantium to stick more to European school of dreadnaughts than the US one? Eh, nevermind. I just thought those Salamis-class were pretty awesome for their time :)
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Re: SDN World 3 Ship Design Thread

Postby Fingolfin_Noldor » 2009-11-08 12:12am

Stas Bush wrote:US classes? Doesn't it make sense for Byzantium to stick more to European school of dreadnaughts than the US one? Eh, nevermind. I just thought those Salamis-class were pretty awesome for their time :)


Heh.. I just wanted to have a consistent design lineage after all. Italy's designs look interesting, but I disliked some of the design problems they had. :P
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Re: SDN World 3 Ship Design Thread

Postby K. A. Pital » 2009-11-08 12:16am

Oh, I see. Well, the US design lineage isn't without problems either. ;) Is there someone playing Italy by the way? Because I'll be using Italian school designs later in the game (1930s).

I'd love to see a powerful Italian dreadnaught line. And of course, I want to see the actually finished Salamis with 356-mm armament in action! :)
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Re: SDN World 3 Ship Design Thread

Postby Fingolfin_Noldor » 2009-11-08 12:18am

Stas Bush wrote:Oh, I see. Well, the US design lineage isn't without problems either. ;) Is there someone playing Italy by the way? Because I'll be using Italian school designs later in the game (1930s).

I'd love to see a powerful Italian dreadnaught line. And of course, I want to see the actually finished Salamis with 356-mm armament in action! :)

Oh of course. Which I will attempt to rectify with my newer designs from 1922. I own the southern corner of Italy. :wink:
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Re: SDN World 3 Ship Design Thread

Postby Lonestar » 2009-11-08 12:23am

Fingolfin_Noldor wrote:
Heh.. I just wanted to have a consistent design lineage after all. Italy's designs look interesting, but I disliked some of the design problems they had. :P


Most of my Dread designs are Eye-talian knockoffs :P
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Re: SDN World 3 Ship Design Thread

Postby RogueIce » 2009-11-08 12:47am

Fingolfin_Noldor wrote:Heh.. I just wanted to have a consistent design lineage after all. Italy's designs look interesting, but I disliked some of the design problems they had. :P

Our navies are going to look remarkably similar, aren't they?
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Re: SDN World 3 Ship Design Thread

Postby Fingolfin_Noldor » 2009-11-08 12:55am

RogueIce wrote:
Fingolfin_Noldor wrote:Heh.. I just wanted to have a consistent design lineage after all. Italy's designs look interesting, but I disliked some of the design problems they had. :P

Our navies are going to look remarkably similar, aren't they?

Not from 1922. :wink: Going with Spring Sharp designs after that.
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Re: SDN World 3 Ship Design Thread

Postby Norseman » 2009-11-08 06:10am

I'm still looking at this design and wondering if I should leave it be, as is, or if I should have it converted over to being a carrier. If so before or after it was completed, if it was before then I imagine much of the armour would be gone, but after would perhaps be more realistic. So what do you think guys?

As for why it exists this is basically the result of the cruiser section of the MSDF being more and more unable to keep up with the crusing speed and distances of the battleships. In order to compensate the Sanamel Design Agency decided to create a Large Cruiser, in keeping with the idea that this was a cruiser and not a battleship with poor armour they stuck with 12 inch guns. The resulting design was and is quite controversial, almost immediately certain factions of the Maritime Self-Defence Force wanted to convert it into a carrier, while others wanted to build even more.

Code: Select all

Working Class Hero, FSR of Brazil Battlecruiser laid down 1920

Displacement:
   30,703 t light; 31,905 t standard; 34,118 t normal; 35,888 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   823.52 ft / 808.00 ft x 92.00 ft x 32.00 ft (normal load)
   251.01 m / 246.28 m x 28.04 m  x 9.75 m

Armament:
      9 - 12.00" / 305 mm guns (3x3 guns), 864.00lbs / 391.90kg shells, 1920 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on centreline ends, majority forward
      12 - 6.00" / 152 mm guns (8 mounts), 108.00lbs / 48.99kg shells, 1920 Model
     Breech loading guns in deck mounts with hoists
     on side, all amidships
      24 - 1.57" / 40.0 mm guns (12x2 guns), 1.95lbs / 0.88kg shells, 1920 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts with hoists
     on side, evenly spread
      24 - 0.50" / 12.7 mm guns (12x2 guns), 0.06lbs / 0.03kg shells, 1920 Model
     Machine guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread
   Weight of broadside 9,120 lbs / 4,137 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 100
   2 - 24.5" / 622.3 mm submerged torpedo tubes

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   12.0" / 305 mm   470.00 ft / 143.26 m   16.00 ft / 4.88 m
   Ends:   Unarmoured
     Main Belt covers 89 % of normal length

   - Torpedo Bulkhead:
      3.75" / 95 mm   808.00 ft / 246.28 m   25.00 ft / 7.62 m

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   12.0" / 305 mm   5.00" / 127 mm      12.0" / 305 mm
   2nd:   2.00" / 51 mm   1.00" / 25 mm      1.00" / 25 mm
   3rd:         -            -         1.00" / 25 mm

   - Armour deck: 5.00" / 127 mm, Conning tower: 14.00" / 356 mm

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Geared drive, 3 shafts, 126,292 shp / 94,214 Kw = 30.00 kts
   Range 7,200nm at 15.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 3,983 tons

Complement:
   1,254 - 1,631

Cost:
   £6.265 million / $25.059 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 1,140 tons, 3.3 %
   Armour: 13,257 tons, 38.9 %
      - Belts: 3,875 tons, 11.4 %
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 2,803 tons, 8.2 %
      - Armament: 1,672 tons, 4.9 %
      - Armour Deck: 4,590 tons, 13.5 %
      - Conning Tower: 317 tons, 0.9 %
   Machinery: 4,416 tons, 12.9 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 11,590 tons, 34.0 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 3,415 tons, 10.0 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 300 tons, 0.9 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     46,865 lbs / 21,258 Kg = 54.2 x 12.0 " / 305 mm shells or 8.3 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.16
   Metacentric height 5.9 ft / 1.8 m
   Roll period: 16.0 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 71 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.43
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.24

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has raised forecastle
   Block coefficient: 0.502
   Length to Beam Ratio: 8.78 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 28.43 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 47 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 57
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 20.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 5.00 ft / 1.52 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      28.89 ft / 8.81 m
      - Forecastle (18 %):   22.00 ft / 6.71 m (20.00 ft / 6.10 m aft of break)
      - Mid (50 %):      18.39 ft / 5.61 m
      - Quarterdeck (18 %):   18.39 ft / 5.61 m
      - Stern:      18.39 ft / 5.61 m
      - Average freeboard:   19.77 ft / 6.02 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 89.0 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 141.6 %
   Waterplane Area: 49,619 Square feet or 4,610 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 108 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 159 lbs/sq ft or 778 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.99
      - Longitudinal: 1.03
      - Overall: 1.00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
   Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily
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Re: SDN World 3 Ship Design Thread

Postby Thanas » 2009-11-08 07:28am

Evincer wrote:I'm posting a modification of what Steve approved as the fleet listing for Peru-Bolivia. The modifications are to reduce the amount of 10+ year old tonnage to 1 3/rd of the fleet instead of half, because all of the ships are below 10,000 tons in displacement and are therefore not capital ships or dreadnoughts.

Peru-Bolivia has a naval focus of 2, allowing for 300,000 tons. (BTW does this represent a limitation on the size of the starting fleet, or the total fleet size throughout the game as long as naval focus remains 2?)

Fleet listing

Cruiser Analogues

8 Seigfried-class-analogue Coastal Defense Ships (rebuilt) at 4,250 tons each = 34,000 tons
(laid down approx. 1902-1912, Commissioned well before 1915)

8 Sverige-class-analogue Coastal Defense Ships at 7125 tons each = 57,000 tons
Laid down 1915-1923

16 Total Cruiser-analogues = 91,000 tons

Cruisers

4 Birkenhead-class Cruisers at 5,440 tons each = 21,600 tons (reserve)
Commissioned 1915

Destroyers

20 Almirante Lynch-class destroyers (1911-1915) at 1,430 tons each
=28,600 tons

18 2,000 ton heavy destroyers = 36,000 tons
laid down 1920-1924

38 destroyers = 64,600 tons

Submarines

16 H-class light submarines at 400 tons each = 6,400 tons (reserve)
Laid down 1911-1914

8 Type U31 submarines at approx 900 tons each = 7,200 tons (reserve)
Laid down 1912-1914

16 Type U51/57/63 submarines at approx 1000 tons each = 16,000 tons
Laid down 1915-1916

2 Type U139 submarines at approximately 2000 tons each = 4,000 tons
Laid down beginning 1916

4 Type U46(a) submarines at approximately 2000 tons each = 8,000 tons
Laid down beginning 1918

8 L-class submarines at 890 tons each = 7,120 tons
Laid down 1916 [all of which are minelayers)

4 R-class hunter-killer submarines at 420 tons each = 1,680 tons

2 experimental submarines at 2,820 tons each = 5,640 tons
Laid-down 1921, Commissioned 1925

Total submarine tonnage = approximately 56,040

Torpedo Boats

20 765-ton torpedo boats commissioned 1910-1914 = 15,300 tons

Motor Torpedo Boats

750 MAS Boats 1915-1918 = 22,500 tons (or about 900 55-foot Coastal Motor Boats)

River Gunboats

10 1412-ton river gunboats commissioned 1900-1902 = 14,120 tons (Mainly stationed in the Upper Paraguay River)

12 560-ton modern river gunboats = 6720 tons

12 400-ton modern river gunboats = 4,800 tons

Total tonnage = 296, 680

Total tonnage 10 years old or more = 127, 220
(all ships below 10,000 tons, so only 1 3rd need to be 10 years old or older)

Auxilliaries

Minelayers

10 300-ton minelayers commissioned before 1915 = 3,000 tons

6 2,500 ton minelayers laid down 1911 = 15,000 tons

6 modern minelayers 2,600 tons each = 15,500 tons

Hospital ships

Oilers and coalers

Transports

Maybe some submarine tenders



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Re: SDN World 3 Ship Design Thread

Postby Thanas » 2009-11-08 07:30am

Norseman wrote:I'm still looking at this design and wondering if I should leave it be, as is, or if I should have it converted over to being a carrier. If so before or after it was completed, if it was before then I imagine much of the armour would be gone, but after would perhaps be more realistic. So what do you think guys?

[code]Working Class Hero, FSR of Brazil Battlecruiser laid down 1920



That thing is worse than a Derfflinger class and would be belly-up against one of my 1920 BC classes. I say convert it.
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Re: SDN World 3 Ship Design Thread

Postby Lascaris » 2009-11-08 10:40am

Fingolfin_Noldor wrote:Rough general idea of the Byzantine Imperial Navy.

Hadrian class (South Carolina class) x 2 (Hadrian, Antoninus Pius)
Marcus Aurelius class (Delaware class) x 2 (Marcus Aurelius, Nerva)
Trajan class (Florida class) x 2 (Trajan, Vespasian)
Domitian class (Wyoming class) x 2 (Domitian, Titus)
Tiberius class (New York class) x 2 (Tiberius, Nero)
Diocletian class (Pennsylvania class) x 2 (Diocletian, Valentinian)
Aurelian class (New Mexico class) x 2 (Aurelian, Tacitus)
Valens class (Tennessee class) x 2 (Valens, Constantius
Constantine class (Colorado class) x 2 (Constantine, Augustus)
Justinian class (laid down in 1922, will be detailed later) x 2-4 (Justinian, Theodosius)

I will go detail the cruisers later, once I run through the available classes. Some of the above ships might be wiped off because of tonnage limitations.


Uhm... yes Byzantum is the Roman empire, being Greek I'm the last to contest the claim. But by the same token it is a Greek dominated state for about the last 15 centuries. So perhaps there is something wrong with naming the battleships all after dead Romans instead of dead Byzantines? :angelic:

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Re: SDN World 3 Ship Design Thread

Postby Fingolfin_Noldor » 2009-11-08 10:45am

Lascaris wrote:
Fingolfin_Noldor wrote:Rough general idea of the Byzantine Imperial Navy.

Hadrian class (South Carolina class) x 2 (Hadrian, Antoninus Pius)
Marcus Aurelius class (Delaware class) x 2 (Marcus Aurelius, Nerva)
Trajan class (Florida class) x 2 (Trajan, Vespasian)
Domitian class (Wyoming class) x 2 (Domitian, Titus)
Tiberius class (New York class) x 2 (Tiberius, Nero)
Diocletian class (Pennsylvania class) x 2 (Diocletian, Valentinian)
Aurelian class (New Mexico class) x 2 (Aurelian, Tacitus)
Valens class (Tennessee class) x 2 (Valens, Constantius
Constantine class (Colorado class) x 2 (Constantine, Augustus)
Justinian class (laid down in 1922, will be detailed later) x 2-4 (Justinian, Theodosius)

I will go detail the cruisers later, once I run through the available classes. Some of the above ships might be wiped off because of tonnage limitations.


Uhm... yes Byzantum is the Roman empire, being Greek I'm the last to contest the claim. But by the same token it is a Greek dominated state for about the last 15 centuries. So perhaps there is something wrong with naming the battleships all after dead Romans instead of dead Byzantines? :angelic:

What? We still honor our Roman Emperors. Why should forget them all? :lol: (and to be honest, I can't think of many Greek names off hand being not Greek.)

That aside, there are only so many Emperor names to choose from to name capital ships, and there are a few Eastern Roman Emperors on the above list.
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Re: SDN World 3 Ship Design Thread

Postby Lascaris » 2009-11-08 11:04am

Fingolfin_Noldor wrote:
Lascaris wrote:
Fingolfin_Noldor wrote:Rough general idea of the Byzantine Imperial Navy.

Hadrian class (South Carolina class) x 2 (Hadrian, Antoninus Pius)
Marcus Aurelius class (Delaware class) x 2 (Marcus Aurelius, Nerva)
Trajan class (Florida class) x 2 (Trajan, Vespasian)
Domitian class (Wyoming class) x 2 (Domitian, Titus)
Tiberius class (New York class) x 2 (Tiberius, Nero)
Diocletian class (Pennsylvania class) x 2 (Diocletian, Valentinian)
Aurelian class (New Mexico class) x 2 (Aurelian, Tacitus)
Valens class (Tennessee class) x 2 (Valens, Constantius
Constantine class (Colorado class) x 2 (Constantine, Augustus)
Justinian class (laid down in 1922, will be detailed later) x 2-4 (Justinian, Theodosius)

What? We still honor our Roman Emperors. Why should forget them all? :lol: (and to be honest, I can't think of many Greek names off hand being not Greek.)

That aside, there are only so many Emperor names to choose from to name capital ships, and there are a few Eastern Roman Emperors on the above list.


So non entities like Valens and Constantius, known madmen like Nero and evil persecutors of Christianity like Diocletian all get ships along an obscure historian but the likes of Heraclius, Leo III, Tsimisces and Nikephorus Phokas are nowhere to be seen? :P

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Re: SDN World 3 Ship Design Thread

Postby Fingolfin_Noldor » 2009-11-08 11:05am

Lascaris wrote:So non entities like Valens and Constantius, known madmen like Nero and evil persecutors of Christianity like Diocletian all get ships along an obscure historian but the likes of Heraclius, Leo III, Tsimisces and Nikephorus Phokas are nowhere to be seen? :P

Oh, they will get their ships. There are at least 10-20 capital ships to be built and named. :D
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Re: SDN World 3 Ship Design Thread

Postby Steve » 2009-11-08 01:33pm

*sigh* I don't suppose a battlecruiser with just 6 16"/52 guns in 1922 would be worth it? Even if it's meant for hunting down commerce raiders or enemy large cruisers, not for participating in the line of battle?
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Re: SDN World 3 Ship Design Thread

Postby Evincer » 2009-11-08 01:52pm

Regarding the discussion yesterday, if people find that I have too many MTBs to maintain easily, I'll cut their numbers back to 400. I just want to be able to provide some density coastally.

I didn't fill up 300,000 tons with MTBs. I just pointed out to Steve how absolutely insane that'd be.

I actually 'only' have 350 of 'em, but then I do have enough other ships to at least put on a decent fleet review.


Yes, I didn't think anyone actually tried to do 300,000 tons worth of MTBs, I jjust wanted to see who came up with the idea :D

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Re: SDN World 3 Ship Design Thread

Postby Slacker » 2009-11-08 02:55pm

Well, I looked at it this way-there's no way Poland can have a line of battle with only Riga as a significant coastal port. At the same time, I need to kill Commie warships. This struck me as the best way of doing it with Poland's limited naval resources.
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