Bad books, bad books...

[Samuel]

I read the first three main ones and several of the story compilations. Things just seem off to me though. The papacy is acting goody two shoes, Cardinal Richelieu is a mastermind and you have somethings that should appear, but don't. Where is the reaction among the Americans to the Germans burning witches (it is explicitly mentioned they are having problems stopping it)? Where is the reaction to all the new science that pops up, that essentially trashes the whole current world view? The last can be accepted as the Americans hording the science textbooks, but you'd think the idea of evolution might have seeped out by now given how many of the books were stolen.

I'm probably being too nit picky, but it seems odd to me. I can forgive the major plot hole (the ring of fire- the characters who think about the odds are right- the chances against what happened are insane). The other things just grate me.

[Darth Hoth]

Ugh. Faux-historical constructions like that are 50% of the reason AH sucks shit - the only 50% of course being the hilariously oversimplistic view of history and events shared by all AH authors, whereby they change some things, wave a magic wand to create a fantasy world where everything happens the way they want, and then write a fantasy story that is 'bolstered' by the inclusion of 'real' (nb not real) 'historical' 'personages' in 'different' situations where they do 'realistic' (nb, actually what the writer thinks) things to push the fantasy story along.

The AH genre would be a lot better if more authors just admitted they were spinning shit instead of the intellectual snobbery of it being 'HISTORICAL'. So historical... they made it up!

Generally, there are two kinds of alternate history. The first, or "counterfactual history," is more serious and attempts to evaluate the reasonable historical consequences of different actions, examining the context in detail and looking to appropriate examples/analogies in "real" history. The second is "KEWL setting with Nazis/Romans/America! Fuck-yeah! tacked on," or basically what you described. Turtledove's works (those that are not outright fantasy, that is) are in the second category, while Draka is at its far end. TBO is more ambiguous, in that Stuart does make a credible attempt at planning US and Soviet development out, but the handwaving elsewhere (Chipan/Caliphate in particular), the presence of demons and some other improbable developments make it lean towards the second in spite of its obvious virtues. The obvious problem with all AH is the requirement to balance credibility against entertainment value.

[Norseman]

For All Time is a wonderful timeline with nuclear bombers (as in the engines); Chikatillo as the head of the USSR; a militarized, polluted Scandinavia allied with Thailand is fighting a war in Vietnam (untill Vietnam is wiped out along with China); and much, much more fun!

[K. A. Pital]

No, For All Time is just a ridiculously dry fanfiction of low quality. Or something along these lines. It's artistic value is zero, and it's alt-historical "value" is likewise nearing zero. Simply using well-known names as historical leaders to maintain a pale interest in a dry and uninteresting re-listing of the events of an alternative world is not "good writing", and it hardly even passes as a novel.

[Norseman]

It is fantastic in the sense of being very entertaining.

[Thanas]

Have either of you guys worked through the 163x series by Flint et al? While the first book was really a bit wanktastic from there on it has started to settle into a truly interesting AH panorama complete with hundreds of little stories that dot the landscape below the wider arc of the series.

No I haven't, but anybody who names a town Badenburg has clearly not that much knowledge about the historical events and Germany. Looking it up at Wikipedia it seems to be more of a collection of persons the author wants to keep alive (See: Adolphus and Wallenstein)...also, his concept of a united states of europe had no chance to succeed in real life.

[Samuel]

Have either of you guys worked through the 163x series by Flint et al? While the first book was really a bit wanktastic from there on it has started to settle into a truly interesting AH panorama complete with hundreds of little stories that dot the landscape below the wider arc of the series.

No I haven't, but anybody who names a town Badenburg has clearly not that much knowledge about the historical events and Germany. Looking it up at Wikipedia it seems to be more of a collection of persons the author wants to keep alive (See: Adolphus and Wallenstein)...also, his concept of a united states of europe had no chance to succeed in real life.

He did mention that he would be doing a book were Fredrick the Great and George Washington and their armies are dumped back into the 4th or 5th century Rome...

"ducks thrown objects"

I think it got put on hold fortunately.

[Stark]

Generally, there are two kinds of alternate history. The first, or "counterfactual history," is more serious and attempts to evaluate the reasonable historical consequences of different actions, examining the context in detail and looking to appropriate examples/analogies in "real" history. The second is "KEWL setting with Nazis/Romans/America! Fuck-yeah! tacked on," or basically what you described. Turtledove's works (those that are not outright fantasy, that is) are in the second category, while Draka is at its far end. TBO is more ambiguous, in that Stuart does make a credible attempt at planning US and Soviet development out, but the handwaving elsewhere (Chipan/Caliphate in particular), the presence of demons and some other improbable developments make it lean towards the second in spite of its obvious virtues. The obvious problem with all AH is the requirement to balance credibility against entertainment value.

I'm not using the silly term, but the first type is generally speculative or thought-provoking in tone, whereas the second type is fantasy with 'historical' characters inserted for cachet or for political grandstanding. A decent example of the first type can start in interesting discussion or suggest an interesting avenue for research; the second just makes the reader feel awesome for being so clever (much like most nerd fiction, frankly). Obviously if you did xyz at the abc you'd conquer the jfk and FRANCE RULES THE MOON, tee hee I'm educated.

Guess which one has some merit, and which has absolutely none? OH WOW A BOOK WHERE GEORGE WASHINGTON HADOKENS NINJAS.

[Pulp Hero]

Guess which one has some merit, and which has absolutely none? OH WOW A BOOK WHERE GEORGE WASHINGTON HADOKENS NINJAS.

Anyone who says they wouldn't read that is a liar.

[Kanastrous]

Anyone who denies wanting to see the movie, is a liar.

[CmdrWilkens]

Have either of you guys worked through the 163x series by Flint et al? While the first book was really a bit wanktastic from there on it has started to settle into a truly interesting AH panorama complete with hundreds of little stories that dot the landscape below the wider arc of the series.

No I haven't, but anybody who names a town Badenburg has clearly not that much knowledge about the historical events and Germany. Looking it up at Wikipedia it seems to be more of a collection of persons the author wants to keep alive (See: Adolphus and Wallenstein)...also, his concept of a united states of europe had no chance to succeed in real life.

The Badenburg thing came out in the first book (which was full of other issues which flint later acknowledged but felt that he couldn't write himself out of it). That being said the USE is odd in that the vast majority of its "territory" is essentially under Army Occupation. only the environs of Thuringia and Magdeburg are full provinces with their own elected government. Everybody else is under direct or indirect military administration as esentially an occupied territory. Some of the Virginia DeMarce colaborations go into the huge and convoluted legal structure involved with setting up any attempt at a federal stucture government in the regions.

So yeah its definately quirky in the beginning and tending towards a bit more interesting while delving into the fate of the HRE as well as the future of the Low Countries as well as the personalities involved (he is obviously quite partial to Ferdinand III and the rest of Ferdinand II kids as well as Don Fernando)

[Stark]

Anyone who says they wouldn't read that is a liar.

There are people in the world with taste. They're just not you.

[The Yosemite Bear]

Another Digression, but I was just thinking Civ IV round robin Fanfic would actually make a better AH fiction.

[Stark]

That's because it would openly be both simplistic and entirely fantastical, thus losing all the pretentions of bad alt history. It'd just be a game AAR with 'historical' names.

[Thanas]

The Badenburg thing came out in the first book (which was full of other issues which flint later acknowledged but felt that he couldn't write himself out of it). That being said the USE is odd in that the vast majority of its "territory" is essentially under Army Occupation. only the environs of Thuringia and Magdeburg are full provinces with their own elected government. Everybody else is under direct or indirect military administration as esentially an occupied territory. Some of the Virginia DeMarce colaborations go into the huge and convoluted legal structure involved with setting up any attempt at a federal stucture government in the regions.

So he is unfamiliar with the working of the HRE as well? Because that was already something of a federal government.

How does he make do with the Treaty of Augsburg, the Goldene Bulle and of course the non-existent treaty of Westphalia? Because Gustavus Adolphus becoming emperor...kinda seems to ignore all of them.

And how do those guys even survive one year of the thirty year's war? Even towns that only had about three thousand inhabitants routinely found themselves besieged by armies twice that size.

How come a town with no defenses whatsoever manages to do that?

[CmdrWilkens]

The Badenburg thing came out in the first book (which was full of other issues which flint later acknowledged but felt that he couldn't write himself out of it). That being said the USE is odd in that the vast majority of its "territory" is essentially under Army Occupation. only the environs of Thuringia and Magdeburg are full provinces with their own elected government. Everybody else is under direct or indirect military administration as esentially an occupied territory. Some of the Virginia DeMarce colaborations go into the huge and convoluted legal structure involved with setting up any attempt at a federal stucture government in the regions.

So he is unfamiliar with the working of the HRE as well? Because that was already something of a federal government.

How does he make do with the Treaty of Augsburg, the Goldene Bulle and of course the non-existent treaty of Westphalia? Because Gustavus Adolphus becoming emperor...kinda seems to ignore all of them.

And how do those guys even survive one year of the thirty year's war? Even towns that only had about three thousand inhabitants routinely found themselves besieged by armies twice that size.

How come a town with no defenses whatsoever manages to do that?

Well the "attempt at a federal government" is my wording and probably poor but there is quite a bit of discussion (in paticularly amongst Ferdinand III and Cecilia Renata) about how they are going to work to get Ferdinand III elected since at least a few of the electors are under pressure to deal with Gustavus while at this point Ferdinand is only King of Hungary and has not yet grasped the reigns quite so fimrly as he needs to in part because the marrying off of Maria Ana to Bavaria doesn't work out...so there is certainly more depth than I've hinted at but I'm not conversant enough with the period to judge whether he has a better grasp on the political dimesnion after the first book.

In regards to the treaty of Augsburg there is an undercurrnet in some of the non main storyline works as to the issue of how to deal with the Calvinist sects that are poping up and the debate between the American ideal of seperation of church and state versus provincial religion belonging to the whim of the princes. As for Westphalia the knowledge that it would exist in the future leads to the early rise of Mazzarino along with Turene and a host of other figures.

As to how Grantville survives some of it is the fact that the event which moved them back in time literally cut into the surrounding hillsides creating what would be, likely as not, an incredibly tortured path to enter the town proper. Moreover since they arrive around the time of Breitenfeld so the swedish victory meant that there were few organized armies immediately available to attack and the locals obviously are possesed of one of the highest rates of gun ownership. With modern firearms engaging smaller bands of soldiers scatttered in company strength or as ranging parties woudl be relatively easy. After that theya re under the protection of the swedes and begin forming regiments of local German troops with money from trade in everything from second hand goods to early mechanized farm equipment and the whole of other trade items that are detailed in multiple sub-stories.

[Thanas]

I am sorry, but this is giving me a headache trying to rationalize it.

Well the "attempt at a federal government" is my wording and probably poor but there is quite a bit of discussion (in paticularly amongst Ferdinand III and Cecilia Renata) about how they are going to work to get Ferdinand III elected since at least a few of the electors are under pressure to deal with Gustavus while at this point Ferdinand is only King of Hungary and has not yet grasped the reigns quite so fimrly as he needs to in part because the marrying off of Maria Ana to Bavaria doesn't work out...so there is certainly more depth than I've hinted at but I'm not conversant enough with the period to judge whether he has a better grasp on the political dimesnion after the first book.

Fair enough.

In regards to the treaty of Augsburg there is an undercurrnet in some of the non main storyline works as to the issue of how to deal with the Calvinist sects that are poping up and the debate between the American ideal of seperation of church and state versus provincial religion belonging to the whim of the princes. As for Westphalia the knowledge that it would exist in the future leads to the early rise of Mazzarino along with Turene and a host of other figures.

Why would Mazarin (who I am assume you are talking about) profit at all from the knowledge about the future?

As to how Grantville survives some of it is the fact that the event which moved them back in time literally cut into the surrounding hillsides creating what would be, likely as not, an incredibly tortured path to enter the town proper.

Which should make it ridiculous easy to besiege it and starve it to death. Considering sieges took several years at that time...

Moreover since they arrive around the time of Breitenfeld so the swedish victory meant that there were few organized armies immediately available to attack and the locals obviously are possesed of one of the highest rates of gun ownership. With modern firearms engaging smaller bands of soldiers scatttered in company strength or as ranging parties woudl be relatively easy. After that theya re under the protection of the swedes and begin forming regiments of local German troops with money from trade in everything from second hand goods to early mechanized farm equipment and the whole of other trade items that are detailed in multiple sub-stories.

Under protection of the swedes they manage to survive? How? After Breitenfeld it is only a short time until Alte Veste, where Wallenstein appears on the map, and then on to Lützen. Considering Lützen was fought near Leipzig, I doubt Wallenstein would not have moved first against Badenburg and destroyed them. There was no effective swedish protection in that area.

[CmdrWilkens]

I am sorry, but this is giving me a headache trying to rationalize it.

In regards to the treaty of Augsburg there is an undercurrnet in some of the non main storyline works as to the issue of how to deal with the Calvinist sects that are poping up and the debate between the American ideal of seperation of church and state versus provincial religion belonging to the whim of the princes. As for Westphalia the knowledge that it would exist in the future leads to the early rise of Mazzarino along with Turene and a host of other figures.

Why would Mazarin (who I am assume you are talking about) profit at all from the knowledge about the future?

In the sense that Richlieu brings him up well before he acheived any of the notoriety that would bring him to everyone's attention. Much in the same way Terenne is promoted to Marshall of France before his 30th birthday despite not yet having fought any of the battles that would mark him in his later life. Essentially everyone who would be a notable figure in the 1640-1648 timeframe is promoted early in an effort to jump start their careers. Also yes I was talking about Mazarin but using his birth name.

As to how Grantville survives some of it is the fact that the event which moved them back in time literally cut into the surrounding hillsides creating what would be, likely as not, an incredibly tortured path to enter the town proper.

Which should make it ridiculous easy to besiege it and starve it to death. Considering sieges took several years at that time...

Moreover since they arrive around the time of Breitenfeld so the swedish victory meant that there were few organized armies immediately available to attack and the locals obviously are possesed of one of the highest rates of gun ownership. With modern firearms engaging smaller bands of soldiers scatttered in company strength or as ranging parties woudl be relatively easy. After that theya re under the protection of the swedes and begin forming regiments of local German troops with money from trade in everything from second hand goods to early mechanized farm equipment and the whole of other trade items that are detailed in multiple sub-stories.

Under protection of the swedes they manage to survive? How? After Breitenfeld it is only a short time until Alte Veste, where Wallenstein appears on the map, and then on to Lützen. Considering Lützen was fought near Leipzig, I doubt Wallenstein would not have moved first against Badenburg and destroyed them. There was no effective swedish protection in that area.

Because Flint restructures Alte Veste. He has an American sniper take out a goodly portion of the Imperial command staff including a shoulder shot on Wallenstein himself. In turn this means ther eis no actual commander on the scene to deal with the swedish artillery supplemented by sandcasted artillery built by the Americans and then bored out using modern machine precision to give them superior range and power against the Imperial Artillery. In turn this means that Gustavus' sally from Nurnburg is succesful so the battle of Lutzen is never fought and the Swedes remain the pre-eminent army in the Germanies. So in other words by taking Wallenstein out of the equation (and later on having him proclaim himself King of Bohemia, though to balance this a bit Bernhard of Saxe-Weimar defects and declares for himself in what is, near as I can tell, Alsace/Lorraine) it leaves the Swedes essentially where they were after Breitenfeld only without any player on the Imperial side able to directly oppose them for at least another campaign season.





- As sort of a back to my original point thing: The first book (1632) kinda pu Flint in a hole that he has been forced to work his way out of. There are events contained that he sort of forced to happen (the revised Alte Veste, Wallenstein and Bernhard's moves to set themselves up as new rulers, the move by Richlieu to try and get at Grantville and stop supporting the Swedes, etc) without what one might consider proper reflection. The subsequent books (1633 onwards) tend to take a much deeper appreciation of the complexities involved not the least of which is the manuevering amongst the Adel and Hochadel in the "Confederate Principalities of Europe" which is what Gustav tries to set up initially. Combine this with the efforts of the English Crown to stave off the English Civil War, the Spanish to finally retake the Low Countries, the Danish to retake leadership of the Protestant cause from the Swedes and its a much better tapestry with the only real outlier being the French actions...thoguh even there Richlieu playing for the long term (by getting the English to sell off the US in return for economic support to get Charles through his issues with Parliament) makes sense.

[The Yosemite Bear]

of course the best joke would be: 3000BCE our scouts report back with the technology of gunpowder.

[Pelranius]

Let's see now. Atlas Shrugged, the hectoring by those zero dimensional characters was so in your face that I wondered why Ayn Rand hadn't just sold the book as the next big thing in plastic explosives.

Eragon is pretty damn shitty. After reading it, the newer Redwall books and the early Shannara stuff look pretty darn original. Never thought I would say that.

[Thanas]

I am sorry, but this is giving me a headache trying to rationalize it.

In regards to the treaty of Augsburg there is an undercurrnet in some of the non main storyline works as to the issue of how to deal with the Calvinist sects that are poping up and the debate between the American ideal of seperation of church and state versus provincial religion belonging to the whim of the princes. As for Westphalia the knowledge that it would exist in the future leads to the early rise of Mazzarino along with Turene and a host of other figures.

Why would Mazarin (who I am assume you are talking about) profit at all from the knowledge about the future?

In the sense that Richlieu brings him up well before he acheived any of the notoriety that would bring him to everyone's attention. Much in the same way Terenne is promoted to Marshall of France before his 30th birthday despite not yet having fought any of the battles that would mark him in his later life. Essentially everyone who would be a notable figure in the 1640-1648 timeframe is promoted early in an effort to jump start their careers. Also yes I was talking about Mazarin but using his birth name.

UGH. More headaches. Promoting Terenne before his 30th birthday makes even less sense, considering that it was the experience of having served under so many different commanders that made him such an effective soldier. Also, Richelieu did his best to promote him in the OTL as well. What, Richelieu suddenly has more clout than he had in RL?

Because Flint restructures Alte Veste. He has an American sniper take out a goodly portion of the Imperial command staff including a shoulder shot on Wallenstein himself. In turn this means ther eis no actual commander on the scene to deal with the swedish artillery supplemented by sandcasted artillery built by the Americans and then bored out using modern machine precision to give them superior range and power against the Imperial Artillery.

This is so much wankage....yes, one sniper is able to take out a good portion of the imperial command staff...which included over 60 persons. Oh yes, does he take out Pappenheim as well? Or any other corps commander who would have then taken over the fighting in a competent manner?

In turn this means that Gustavus' sally from Nurnburg is succesful so the battle of Lutzen is never fought and the Swedes remain the pre-eminent army in the Germanies.

How? If Lützen had not been fought, it would have merely been another few months before the next imperial army had taken the field, preferrably under the command of Pappenheim who was quite able to command huge forces.

So in other words by taking Wallenstein out of the equation (and later on having him proclaim himself King of Bohemia,

More wanking. Sorry, but there is no way to describe it as such.

though to balance this a bit Bernhard of Saxe-Weimar defects and declares for himself in what is, near as I can tell, Alsace/Lorraine) it leaves the Swedes essentially where they were after Breitenfeld only without any player on the Imperial side able to directly oppose them for at least another campaign season.

That makes even less sense. If the empire is deteriorating at such speed, it would only make spanish intervention more likely. At which point the feared tercios come into play and their superiority is clearly shown at Nördlingen. Which in turn would force french to enter the war way, way faster.

Besides, how huge is the garrison the swedes station at Grantville? It has to be several hundred men at least.

- As sort of a back to my original point thing: The first book (1632) kinda pu Flint in a hole that he has been forced to work his way out of. There are events contained that he sort of forced to happen (the revised Alte Veste, Wallenstein and Bernhard's moves to set themselves up as new rulers, the move by Richlieu to try and get at Grantville and stop supporting the Swedes, etc) without what one might consider proper reflection. The subsequent books (1633 onwards) tend to take a much deeper appreciation of the complexities involved not the least of which is the manuevering amongst the Adel and Hochadel in the "Confederate Principalities of Europe" which is what Gustav tries to set up initially. Combine this with the efforts of the English Crown to stave off the English Civil War, the Spanish to finally retake the Low Countries, the Danish to retake leadership of the Protestant cause from the Swedes and its a much better tapestry with the only real outlier being the French actions...thoguh even there Richlieu playing for the long term (by getting the English to sell off the US in return for economic support to get Charles through his issues with Parliament) makes sense.

All of that sounds so unrealistic to me that I cannot be forced to conclude that the whole thing is simply unrealistic wankage. England selling of the US in return for support from their mortal enemies...yeah, nice thought there. No, if I'd want fiction about that period, I'd read Wallenstein by Golo Mann.

Sorry, but this series sounds like poorly thought-out wanking to me and I will stay as far away from it as possible.