Moronic technology of the Matrix

[KrauserKrauser]

Do we have any reason to suspect that the Agents cannot un-possess a person? You're making an unfounded assumption.

I am simply working under the assumption that any ability that they have not exhibited in the past, they do not possess.

They have not been shown to be able to reverse the possession process. When they do in a canon source, then that is an ability they possess. Until then, since they do not exhibit that capability, they do not possess it.

[Big Orange]

It begs one to wonder what kind of relationship the Agents have with the unspecified government depicted in the Matrix films. They get unconditional compliance from pretty much any branch of this government, even though the reputations of these known terrorists likely preceeds them wherever they go, and anyone being assigned to confront them pretty much knows that they're going to be one from among the scores of men to die a la the Stormtrooper Effect.

Well those ordinary street cops were obviously kept in the dark when they tried to arrest Trinity, thinking she was just some ordinary hacker and the security guards in the Agent's HQ manning the X-Ray did not seem to be on alert for suspicious looking people. But on the other hand the Agents did send in a huge Police SWAT team to storm the Zion hideout and brought in a company of army/marine infantry to guard their HQ (with a gattling gun equipped army/marine helicopter on the roof).

What I think was criminally wasted in the sequels was showing much more of law enforcement and military services under Agent control, with the Agents doing something ridiculous like trying to stop the Zion rebels with tank divisions and navy carrier groups.

I know the films were shot in Sydney, but as none of the bystanders speak with Australian accents, is it fair to say that it takes place in the United States? Or some alt-world "Country X" that is largely America-like?

It was supposed to be America, but it would've made a lot of sense if they showed that the Matrix was relatively closely modelled on the actual world in the late 20th early 21st century with different sectors under the jurisdiction of different Agent cells who operate behind different human governments.

They have not been shown to be able to reverse the possession process. When they do in a canon source, then that is an ability they possess. Until then, since they do not exhibit that capability, they do not possess it.

Well we see Agents in the final foot chase sequence hopping from person to person without possessed people getting killed, so that's up to endless speculation.

[PeZook]

On the topic of the APUs and Zion military stupidity: something has just occured to me. It's entirely possible that Zion leadership and people are just not concerned with their real-world military at all. There is some circumstancial evidence pointing to this:

1) Cpt. Mifune was not trained in any way (by his own admittance) and yet was obviously in command of the military. This could be a symptom of a military built by a bunch of "enthusiasts" who saw a need for one, but which was not sanctioned by the government.

2) The Rave. It was stupid, but look at how completely unconcerned the people are about the giant machine army heading their way. It's possible they don't understand and don't care that there's a war being fought in the real world, or think whatever defenses they have will be sufficient.

3) Their obsession with the Matrix and the relatively safe location of Zion may be clouding them to the needs of the real-world fighting force. I can see Mifune or his second-in-command pestering other Zionists for supplies to armor the APUs and them going "Jesus, man, shut up already! We're safe here, nobody needs your giant walker-toys. We need this sheet metal for shelters/ship repairs/rave decorations/cool shades for Morpheus

4) The One is always a rebel, and trained from the moment he's woken up to consider the military, police et al as "defenders of the system". So he may simply not chose policemen or soldiers as his "apostles" when re-starting Zion. The machines may actually encourage this behaviour...

5) The Senate is obviously revolted when Mifune says that "If it was up to me, I would give every man, woman and child in Zion a weapon and march them into that dock." I mean, what the hell? The Machines are going to kill the women and the children anyway, so why not arm everyone? This decision only makes sense if the Senate is made up by a bunch of intellectuals and politicians who have no idea how to defend the city.

6) Organization of the dock's defence was horribly unproffesional.

So, it is possible, especially when relatively little time goes between every iteration of Zion, that they simply have no military culture and see no need to build a proper army, beyond some rudimentary defences. Hence, they tell the APU jockeys to fuck off when they ask for resources to armor them or build entirely new vehicles from scratch.

[KrauserKrauser]

Well we see Agents in the final foot chase sequence hopping from person to person without possessed people getting killed, so that's up to endless speculation.

I guess I'll have to watch the movies again, I don't remember that.

[Big Orange]

4) The One is always a rebel, and trained from the moment he's woken up to consider the military, police et al as "defenders of the system". So he may simply not chose policemen or soldiers as his "apostles" when re-starting Zion. The machines may actually encourage this behaviour...

There seemed nothing particularily abnormal or sinister about the police or army personnel - they only seemed like ignorant schmucks just trying to do their jobs and saw the Agents as government officials rather than "evil" anti-virus programs that despised humanity (the AIs control the flow of information in key Matrix "inuniverse" organisations, such as the media and governments, so most of the Agents' minions haven't a clue what's going on).

I guess I'll have to watch the movies again, I don't remember that.

After Smith falls under a subway train he immediately possesses a commuter, then Neo fleeing the station and into the streets finds other Agents melting out of the city crowds taking over dozens of different people almost at random and in full view (they were getting more aggressive and less cautious).

[KrauserKrauser]

Ok, well we are dealing with mega Smith who does not follow the same rules as regular agents.

My question is at any point does Smith, or another agent, de-possess someone and they suffer not ill consequences from the possession, ie they aren't dead and walk away or are at least concious?

I am hesitant to grant that ability to all agents if Smith is the only Agent observed doing it, as he is obviously breaking the rules of a standard Agent, but if it is observed in the movie, then that's fine, I just don't remember it happening.

[Typhonis 1]

.

Damn...the new model of an Eldar war walker is better of than that. Could the old style exposed cockpit walker have been the inspiration for this?

[Big Orange]

Ok, well we are dealing with mega Smith who does not follow the same rules as regular agents.

No, I think Agent Smith was still normal and there were two other Agents acting as his aides - they were each possesing one person at a time and were not doing any self-replicating bullshit.

My question is at any point does Smith, or another agent, de-possess someone and they suffer not ill consequences from the possession, ie they aren't dead and walk away or are at least concious?

That was annoyingly left vague during the chase scene (you see an angry businessman turn into Smith one minute, then the next you see Smith replace a elderly woman).

I am hesitant to grant that ability to all agents if Smith is the only Agent observed doing it, as he is obviously breaking the rules of a standard Agent, but if it is observed in the movie, then that's fine, I just don't remember it happening.

I haven't seen Reloaded or Revolution properly yet.

[FSTargetDrone]

Damn...the new model of an Eldar war walker is better of than that. Could the old style exposed cockpit walker have been the inspiration for this?

I'm not familiar with Warhammer stuff, so hopefully someone else here can answer your question.

In any case, everytime I look at these nonsensically-designed APUs I cringe. As I said before, the cockpit/torso/whatever we want to call it should be among the most heavily armored sections of these things. The issue with them being unable to shoot and fire at the same time, I hadn't even noticed it until someone brought it up some posts back, but that is just +5 to the stupid level.

Something else I did notice, exposed as they are out in the open, the operators of these damn things are at risk from being hit from their fellow APU drivers' ejected shell casings! The shells or links or whatever the hell they are seem to be ejected straight up in the air. It should be a trivially simple matter to design the APU weapons such that the ammo belts are situated on the inside of the guns (that is, the belt enters the gun from the inboard side), with the casings or links ejecting down and to the rear, or at least downward. Then again the huge loops of ammo belts hanging out all over the place is just silly.

Of course if they had armored cockpits it would be moot...

[Darth Wong]

My question is at any point does Smith, or another agent, de-possess someone and they suffer not ill consequences from the possession, ie they aren't dead and walk away or are at least concious?

I am hesitant to grant that ability to all agents if Smith is the only Agent observed doing it, as he is obviously breaking the rules of a standard Agent, but if it is observed in the movie, then that's fine, I just don't remember it happening.

We know for a fact that agents can de-possess people at will, since they jump from person to person at will. However, we don't know what happens to the old hosts when the agent personality leaves, and I don't see any means of arriving at a conclusion without more information.

[Teleros]

Could the old style exposed cockpit walker have been the inspiration for this?

At least the old War Walker had the excuse of an energy field around the pilot .

[Darth Wong]

Could the old style exposed cockpit walker have been the inspiration for this?

I'm pretty sure that the inspiration for this was a severe concussion.

[Adrian Laguna]

On a weird side note - the director of "Detective Story" - Shinichiro Watanabe - has stated that he deliberately left the detective's fate ambiguous, similar to Spike's fate at the end of Cowboy Bebop. His death is not assured.

Someone needs to tell Watanabe that it hardly qualifies as "ambiguous" when the entire audience is sure the character is down for good. Though it might just be that I've somehow managed to never encounter anyone who thought Spike might have survived. Never have talked about Detective Story, but I was pretty sure he bit the dust. Trinity says something like "Too bad, you almost made it", I assumed he didn't make it due to being a dead man.

[Molyneux]

On a weird side note - the director of "Detective Story" - Shinichiro Watanabe - has stated that he deliberately left the detective's fate ambiguous, similar to Spike's fate at the end of Cowboy Bebop. His death is not assured.

Someone needs to tell Watanabe that it hardly qualifies as "ambiguous" when the entire audience is sure the character is down for good. Though it might just be that I've somehow managed to never encounter anyone who thought Spike might have survived. Never have talked about Detective Story, but I was pretty sure he bit the dust. Trinity says something like "Too bad, you almost made it", I assumed he didn't make it due to being a dead man.

It could also be easily taken as her almost freeing him from the Matrix.

Regarding Spike: "I've never officially said that he's died. At this point, I can tell you that I'm not sure if he's alive or dead. I think probably rather than being yelled at for killing Spike, I think ... people are more upset that I might make a continuation."

Gut wounds can be painfully fatal, or mere flesh wounds, depending on luck. The fact that he was steady-handed and not in any obvious pain when the Agents found him may suggest that it was a nonfatal (at least in the short-term) wound.

The 'old Indian' scene at the beginning of the end of Cowboy Bebop seems to imply that either Spike or Vicious died, but not necessarily both. Only one star fell.

[Ryushikaze]

On a weird side note - the director of "Detective Story" - Shinichiro Watanabe - has stated that he deliberately left the detective's fate ambiguous, similar to Spike's fate at the end of Cowboy Bebop. His death is not assured.

Someone needs to tell Watanabe that it hardly qualifies as "ambiguous" when the entire audience is sure the character is down for good. Though it might just be that I've somehow managed to never encounter anyone who thought Spike might have survived. Never have talked about Detective Story, but I was pretty sure he bit the dust. Trinity says something like "Too bad, you almost made it", I assumed he didn't make it due to being a dead man.

While I don't really think he lived, I'm cynical enough to know not to write him off. After all, the company might just decide to milk a sequel where he miraculously lives.

[Ghost Rider]

If you want to discuss whether Spike lived or died, make another topic.

[Ryushikaze]

Ghetto edit: Spike, that is. I'm undecided on what I think of the detective.

Though to chime in on the rest of the thread, the Matrix was ruined for me when they detailed the backstory and confirmed that yes, humans were being used as a power plant. I could by a technobabble "computing power" excuse, sure. But not the power plant.

Of course, most of the backstory of the matrix, as well as the later movies, absolutely rings of lack of being thought the whole way through. Or at all.

I did watch the third movie, but only in the 'hope' that everyone, or at least Neo and Trinity, would bite it, since such stupidity should not have been allowed to live.

[Molyneux]

Though to chime in on the rest of the thread, the Matrix was ruined for me when they detailed the backstory and confirmed that yes, humans were being used as a power plant. I could by a technobabble "computing power" excuse, sure. But not the power plant.

See, that's what I figured!
I kept telling myself that Morpheus was just mistaken about the power-thing, and that they were using humans for massive parallel-processing, up until I saw the third movie. Then, I lost all hope for saving the series.

[MJ12 Commando]

Personally I think the Matrix backstory is just a living (or... well, whatever term you'd use for it) example of Sturgeon's Law even inside fiction.

10% of it is great. The other 90% is utter goddamned crap.

[Big Orange]

We know for a fact that agents can de-possess people at will, since they jump from person to person at will. However, we don't know what happens to the old hosts when the agent personality leaves, and I don't see any means of arriving at a conclusion without more information.

It could leave a corpse with melted brain, although a person could be left disorientated like waking up from a violent nightmare (like Neo after first meeting Agent Smith).

[Ghost Rider]

We know for a fact that agents can de-possess people at will, since they jump from person to person at will. However, we don't know what happens to the old hosts when the agent personality leaves, and I don't see any means of arriving at a conclusion without more information.

It could leave a corpse with melted brain, although a person could be left disorientated like waking up from a violent nightmare (like Neo after first meeting Agent Smith).

And it could leave them with nothing but a sensation of an upset libido. What do you not grasp that because we have not seen what happens, we cannot make a conclusion?!

[Molyneux]

We know for a fact that agents can de-possess people at will, since they jump from person to person at will. However, we don't know what happens to the old hosts when the agent personality leaves, and I don't see any means of arriving at a conclusion without more information.

It could leave a corpse with melted brain, although a person could be left disorientated like waking up from a violent nightmare (like Neo after first meeting Agent Smith).

And it could leave them with nothing but a sensation of an upset libido. What do you not grasp that because we have not seen what happens, we cannot make a conclusion?!

If we've never seen what happens after someone is de-possessed in the movies themselves, and the comics hosted on the Matrix website itself show that after depossession the human personality is restored with no memory of the time spent as an Agent (but maintaining whatever wounds were inflicted during that time period), then don't they apply?

Yes, their status as canon is uncertain, but in the absence of any other indicative factors, I would think they would hold sway.

[Ghost Rider]

It could leave a corpse with melted brain, although a person could be left disorientated like waking up from a violent nightmare (like Neo after first meeting Agent Smith).

And it could leave them with nothing but a sensation of an upset libido. What do you not grasp that because we have not seen what happens, we cannot make a conclusion?!

If we've never seen what happens after someone is de-possessed in the movies themselves, and the comics hosted on the Matrix website itself show that after depossession the human personality is restored with no memory of the time spent as an Agent (but maintaining whatever wounds were inflicted during that time period), then don't they apply?

Yes, their status as canon is uncertain, but in the absence of any other indicative factors, I would think they would hold sway.

You do understand the flaw in proving a negative correct?

My point was that Big Orange made a claim that it could leave one with a melted brain when we have no idea whatsoever, other then a possible story that can anyone verify canocity.

If the story has some canon backing(who cares if hosted by the website, given the amount of material hosted by both Trek and Wars on their website), then at least your point would be better then Big Orange's random musing of the second.

[Big Orange]

Well KrauserKrauser first suggested that Agent's possessing plugged in people could be fatal, not me, but I'll go with what the comics show.

[Uraniun235]

What I don't get is the whole "perpetual 1999" thing of the Matrix. How does that even work?