Ender's Game (spoilers)

[ThatGuyFromThatPlace]

Hmm, sorry to bring this up again (okay, not really)
But i've been thinking and reading and conversing with firends wiser than me (they are many for my wisdom is small )

and I have to bring up your quote Mr. Degan:

[quote=Patrick Degan][quote=Mr. Card]
The buggers could probalby see about the same spectrum of light as human beings, and there was artificial lighting in their ships and ground installations. However, their antennae seemed almost vestigal. There was no evidence from their bodies that smelling, tasting, or hearing were particulary important to them. "Of course, we can't be sure. But we can't see any way they could have used sound for communication. The oddest thing of all was that they also don't have any communication devices on their ships. No radios, nothing that could transmit or receive a signal of any kind."[/quote] [/quote]

I told my wise friend that you probably would not understand your own quoted evidence being used against you, but here we go:
Maybe, the ocntext which you touted as being so essential to this quotes validity (namely, the sentences preceding the one you actually read/payed attention to) could offer us up some clues of this apparent paradox of a species without Radio Astronomy traversing the stars.

It appears from the context of your quote of Col. Graf, that maybe he was talking solely of Communications devices, rather than any and all devices for the literal purpose of transmitting and recieving signals.

If however, you are correct in the face of context, and Col. Graf meant that all bugger ships were 100% free of devices that in any way, shape, form, or fashion transmitting and recieving signals of any kind, Then it begs the question of how they did things like oh, targetting their wepaons.

Or maybe they can do this with their telepathy, in which case, can they not also navigate the stars via selfsame telepathy?

[Patrick Degan]

Hmm, sorry to bring this up again (okay, not really)
But i've been thinking and reading and conversing with firends wiser than me (they are many for my wisdom is small ) and I have to bring up your quote Mr. Degan:

The buggers could probalby see about the same spectrum of light as human beings, and there was artificial lighting in their ships and ground installations. However, their antennae seemed almost vestigal. There was no evidence from their bodies that smelling, tasting, or hearing were particulary important to them. "Of course, we can't be sure. But we can't see any way they could have used sound for communication. The oddest thing of all was that they also don't have any communication devices on their ships. No radios, nothing that could transmit or receive a signal of any kind."

I told my wise friend that you probably would not understand your own quoted evidence being used against you, but here we go:
Maybe, the ocntext which you touted as being so essential to this quotes validity (namely, the sentences preceding the one you actually read/payed attention to) could offer us up some clues of this apparent paradox of a species without Radio Astronomy traversing the stars.

It appears from the context of your quote of Col. Graf, that maybe he was talking solely of Communications devices, rather than any and all devices for the literal purpose of transmitting and recieving signals.

If however, you are correct in the face of context, and Col. Graf meant that all bugger ships were 100% free of devices that in any way, shape, form, or fashion transmitting and recieving signals of any kind, Then it begs the question of how they did things like oh, targetting their wepaons.

Or maybe they can do this with their telepathy, in which case, can they not also navigate the stars via selfsame telepathy?

Well well, you actually managed to propose something resembling a coherent argument. That makes a quite refreshing change.

The problem with this theory (and I have encountered it before) is that Bugger telepathy, like the ansible, appears to be strictly a point-to-point mechanism (term used in its broader sense here): there must be a sender and a receiver at both ends. Nothing suggests that whatever medium of propagation underlying telepathy or the ansible can be reflected off an object the same way as electromagnetic waves.

The other problem with the theory is that the instantaneous nature of Bugger telepathy (as well as the ansible) negates one of the vital components of radar navigation: timing. Distance values are computed by comparing the time differentials between sending a signal pulse and receiving its echo. But you can't do this with a signal which propagates in zero-time. It negates measuring doppler-shift variables since an instantaneous signal, by definition, is not losing or gaining energy. Therefore, it is impossible to establish a time-base for comparative reading or to establish measures for distance.

There could be no such thing as a scalar measure for instantaneous signals: they are received in the instant they are sent. Likewise, it wouldn't be possible to control its energy level in the same way that electromagnetic signals can be boosted, modulated, or tuned.

Definitely a nice try, but in the end there are more problems with this idea than there are with bog-standard SF FTL sensors.

[ThatGuyFromThatPlace]

The Bugger Philotic Connections are point to point, but what about their ability to influence/intercept Ender's dreams?
And how is there ability to both traverse interstellar distances and accurately target their wweapons accounted for?

[Patrick Degan]

The Bugger Philotic Connections are point to point, but what about their ability to influence/intercept Ender's dreams?
And how is there ability to both traverse interstellar distances and accurately target their weapons accounted for?

On the first point, that is mind-to-mind contact. Ender ends up hooked into the ansible as he's (without his knowledge or consent) actually directing battles of the fleet in the wargammes he thinks he's merely playing. And that opens the pathway for the Buggers to read his thoughts and influence his dreams. Of course, this begs another question which goes unanswered.

As to the second point, we run into another problem: Card proposes no alternative mechanism to either Bugger telepathy or EM-based equipment to explain how the Buggers can manage without some rather necessary equipment for navigation, and he doesn't even propose that Bugger telepathy is somehow serving that function either.

[ThatGuyFromThatPlace]

well then, it seems we are left with two options here;

One) Buggers have some form of Telepathic capabilities that are not explained in the book to allow them to do what they have clearly done

or

Two) Graf was specifically reffering to communications when saying no device to transmit or recieve signals, as hinted at by the context in which he says this.

[Patrick Degan]

well then, it seems we are left with two options here;

One) Buggers have some form of Telepathic capabilities that are not explained in the book to allow them to do what they have clearly done

or

Two) Graf was specifically reffering to communications when saying no device to transmit or recieve signals, as hinted at by the context in which he says this.

The problem remaining, of course, is that option 1 still leaves a hole in the evidence which nothing in Card's book can adequately fill, and option 2 is unsatisfying because it leaves us with no explanation whatsoever.

[ThatGuyFromThatPlace]

well, option two at least leaves us the possibility that sans commo gear, they might have all kinds of Radio Astronomy/X-ray Interferomtry/Radar goodies stashed away.

[Patrick Degan]

well, option two at least leaves us the possibility that sans commo gear, they might have all kinds of Radio Astronomy/X-ray Interferomtry/Radar goodies stashed away.

And we're right back to the initial problem, really.

[Vendetta]

It's 3.65 days away. Sure, that's pretty close. But it's also enough time to notice that the blip is gone a second later.

Also, if the ship is yours and you know where it is, it's trivial to factor out the values from any readings if necessary.

True, you could recalibrate your equipment to compensate for position changes in the fleet. But it would be difficult for the buggers, because they don't have any way for the ships of the fleet to report their exact position due to not having any radio comms. It would all have to be done by manual data capture based on optical telescope, telepathic communication, and then manual data entry into the equipment.

Not to mention the fact that a sensor device that needs such frequent recalibration is silly, when an X-ray pickup will do the same job without.

[Graeme Dice]

That isn't quite the issue, as Card provides no alternate mechanism to explain the Buggers alternative to radio engineering.

Doesn't matter to the fact that they must still have some mechanism.

The debate has moved on to ThatMoronFromThatPlace's refusal to acknowledge evidence which is inconvenient to him. Something you'd be aware of if you hadn't disappeared for several days.

And I should care that the debate moved on, why, exactly?

Mr. Pot, meet Mr. Kettle.

I've been kind enough to provide quotes illustrating exactly where you've blatantly lied. I expect the same from you. Failure to provide them is, as always, an implicit concession.

And how is the claim invalid, you dishonest asshole?

The claim is invalid because there is no necessity to develop radios for communication before you develop

You tried saying that I was "backpedaling" several pages ago on this thread. Except the record shows my arguments have been consistent throughout.

Bullshit. You went from claiming that it was impossible to navigate without radio to asking how it would be possible.

And kindly enlighten us exactly HOW you somehow invent radar if you HAVEN'T FIRST DISCOVERED AND DEVELOPED BASIC FIRST PRINCIPLES ?

Thanks for displaying your ignorance of basic science. The Buggers' clearly have a grasp of the necessary basics, such as Maxwell's equations, by their ability to replicate human technology such as the shielding system.

Go fuck yourself, liar.

I'm still waiting for you to provide direct quotes where I lied. Oh that's right, you're an idiotic, ignorant dipshit who can't be bothered to support your claims.

You'd have a shred of an argument if my position was solely "Ender's Game" is a crappy book because I hate Orson Scott Card".

As far as I can tell, that's exactly what your position is.I see little difference between

I have outlined reasons, quoted passages, and constructed a foundation for saying that Orson Scott Card's book is, in fact, idiotic. Don't like it? Too bad.

It's too bad that your arguments are based on a complete lack of understanding of basic science.

The Buggers were able to successfully navigate to Earth twice. Therefore they must be in possession of technology that is necessary to navigate interstellar distances.

Evidence from the book to support this, please. Because according to Graff, such technology was not aboard their ships.

Thanks for conceding that you are completely unable to make any kind of rational argument. The evidence from the book is the basic plot point that the Buggers attacked Earth twice. Thus, they must have the technology to navigate interstellar distances, or else there wouldn't have been any attacks in the first place.

that the bugger's would have no reason to put redundant copies of devices that may have been aboard the queen's ship. If that ship is destroyed then the entire invasion fails, making backups useless.

Sorry, does that actually constitute evidence which is in fact missing from Card's book? No? Thought so.

If you aren't willing to accept an extremely logical deduction, then there's little point in continuing this argument. But then, I already knew that since you're obviously a spacebattles baby.

What bearing do they have on the technological development of the Buggers, which is what you were apparently trying to argue?

Is that a question or a joke?

It's a question. If you weren't trying to argue about the technological dfevelopment of the Buggers, then you clearly shouldn't have mentioned it.

Without any initial discovery and development of basic first principles. Your idiocy is about as comprehensive as ThatImbecileFromThatPlace's.

The Buggers clearly understand the first principles, or they wouldn't be able to build interstellar spaceships. Nor would they be able to understand nuclear weapons well enough to copy the humans shielding system against them.

Oh yes, we can just claim all sorts of things about ourselves on the internet, can't we?

Yes, one could, which is why I'll simply point out the webpage for the research group where I'm getting my PHd., and a link to a couple of my published papers.

http://www.ece.ualberta.ca/~glad/people/grad.html
http://scitation.aip.org/getabs/servlet ... s&gifs=Yes
http://scitation.aip.org/getabs/servlet ... s&gifs=yes
I have a MSc. in Electrical Engineering, a B. Eng. in electrical engineering, and a BSc. in Computer Science. What degrees and/or experience do you have that makes you qualified to tell me what are and are not the first principles involved in building technologies to use the electromagnetic spectrum?

Sorry, but anybody who can come out and say that you can invent radar without first ever discovering and developing the basic first principles of radio engineering —of which it's use for communciation is what you practically stumble over as the very first step— is clearly talking out of his ass.

Unfortunately for you, the first principles of radio engineering are also the first principles for almost all basic technologies. You'd have trouble even understanding the atomic model without them.

Sort of like trying to have cars if you've never bothered to invent the wheel

Except that we're dealing with the equivalent of aliens that didn't need cars because they could run a hundred kilometres an hour for days on end, and are now advanced enough that they can build supersonic airplanes. You'd tell us all that they can't build cars because they didn't invent the wheel.

My overall point is that without the radio in the first place, you can't go on to develop the technologies crucial to successful spaceflight, which renders the basic assumption behind Card's plot idiotic on its face.

And the problem with your overall point is that it's based on a lack of understanding of how simple the involved technology is.

Which still leaves the initial question unanswered: if a culture never develops radio and its allied technologies, then how can they actually navigate their way through space?

Why would I care about that question? I'm only interested in demonstrating that your statements about technological advancement are ignorant at best, idiotic at worst.

Got news for you, asshole: black holes are exactly detected with radioastronomy and X-ray source detectors. That's how the first black holes were spotted and it's how the presence of suspected black holes at certain stars are confirmed.

Have I even mentioned black holes? Nope. So why do you bring them up as though I have mentioned them. Oh right, you're an idiot. I forgot about that.

Get it, moron? Asking at one point "how is it possible" in the overall context of the argument is by way of pointing out impossibility.

Now, either point out the inconsistency in my position, the "backpedal", or kindly shut the fuck up.[/.quote]

Okay. You haven't backpedalled. You've managed quite nicely to continue to keep believing in your untenable, uneducated position.

Now slink back into your hole unless you can come up with something intelligent or honest to say in this thread.

I suggest that you do the same before you continue to make more of a fool of yourself by demonstrating your lack of education.

[Graeme Dice]

Is to the second point, we run into another problem: Card proposes no alternative mechanism to either Bugger telepathy or EM-based equipment to explain how the Buggers can manage without some rather necessary equipment for navigation, and he doesn't even propose that Bugger telepathy is somehow serving that function either.

He doesn't propose it because no such proposal is necessary. There's no need to waste page space discussing technology that has little to no influence on the plot in what is clearly not a hard science fiction book. Even if the Buggers did have radio, the basic plot of the book could remain exactly the same with only very minor changes needed in a few specific details.

[Vendetta]

He doesn't propose it because no such proposal is necessary. There's no need to waste page space discussing technology that has little to no influence on the plot in what is clearly not a hard science fiction book. Even if the Buggers did have radio, the basic plot of the book could remain exactly the same with only very minor changes needed in a few specific details.

Well, no. Their lack of compatible communications with which to attempt to make peace was the core of Card's ethical dilemma. The fact that they were trying to contact and make peace through the game but Ender wiped them out anyway. It mostly arises in Speaker, but you need to remember that the novel version of EG only exists so that the story can be dovetailed into the then half written Speaker. (the foreword to the UK paperback says as much).

If they had radio, the whole point of the novel disintegrates.

[Mad]

True, you could recalibrate your equipment to compensate for position changes in the fleet. But it would be difficult for the buggers, because they don't have any way for the ships of the fleet to report their exact position due to not having any radio comms. It would all have to be done by manual data capture based on optical telescope, telepathic communication, and then manual data entry into the equipment.

Then why did you even bother bringing up a red herring such as multiplatform interferometry? If you don't have precise information on where the other platforms are, then you can't use that technique!

I also like how you ignored the catch-22 where any ship going fast enough to create a large enough gravity well to "confuse" the sensors will appear on the sensors for only a second and thus could not be confused with a star's rather consistent signature. Perhaps you'd care to address it?

Not to mention the fact that a sensor device that needs such frequent recalibration is silly, when an X-ray pickup will do the same job without.

Oh, to be sure, gravimetric sensors would have plenty of rather severe limitations. You're just unable to touch on the actual limitations and must instead focus on the things that won't cause problems, for some strange reason.

[GunDoctor]

He doesn't propose it because no such proposal is necessary. There's no need to waste page space discussing technology that has little to no influence on the plot in what is clearly not a hard science fiction book. Even if the Buggers did have radio, the basic plot of the book could remain exactly the same with only very minor changes needed in a few specific details.

Well, no. Their lack of compatible communications with which to attempt to make peace was the core of Card's ethical dilemma. The fact that they were trying to contact and make peace through the game but Ender wiped them out anyway. It mostly arises in Speaker, but you need to remember that the novel version of EG only exists so that the story can be dovetailed into the then half written Speaker. (the foreword to the UK paperback says as much).

If they had radio, the whole point of the novel disintegrates.

Which brings us back to what I said. IE Card writes better MILSCIFI short stories than weepy, hippy-dippy, epic, give me an editor, doorstoping novels. Just go read the short version. Bugs attack humans, humans race to develop weapons to defeat bugs, dispach fleet, use intervening years to bread a genius admiral, and use FTL comms to have the child genius wipe the threat to humanity of the map. End of story.