Ender's Game (spoilers)

Balrog · Post by **Balrog** » 2006-10-01 03:24pm

So after years of saying I'd get around to it I finally went out and got Ender's Game last night. Enjoyable to read, couldn't put the damn thing down. But anyways, my big question is how the hell did the bugger's know about Ender's dreams? I mean, replicating the detail about the dead Giant and the End of the World on their planet. It had something to do with the ansible, but it didn't seem all that clear to me; were they using it to contact Ender? If so, why couldn't they just tell him "hey, we know we screwed up with starting the first two wars, please don't wipe us out?"

Ace Pace · Post by **Ace Pace** » 2006-10-01 03:30pm

This is revealed more in the later Ender books. The Buggers created a telepathic connection to Ender, however he was an alien mind to them and they didn't fully understand how his brain worked, too unordered for what's basicly a bunch of ants.

So they tried breaking him.

Balrog · Post by **Balrog** » 2006-10-01 04:10pm

Ace Pace wrote:So they tried breaking him.

Huh, from the book it seemed Ender had no trouble breaking on his own

Ace Pace · Post by **Ace Pace** » 2006-10-01 04:13pm

Balrog wrote:
Ace Pace wrote:So they tried breaking him.
Huh, from the book it seemed Ender had no trouble breaking on his own

Why do you think he was breaking? Both the stress, but notice the large differance in stress between his breakdown in the battle room to breakdown on the astroid(I think it's eros).

On the astroid, the Buggers were invading his dreams. Nevermind he was picking up on the stress layed on Mazer Rackam(sp?), shown by Enders Shadow.

Balrog · Post by **Balrog** » 2006-10-01 04:36pm

Ace Pace wrote:
Balrog wrote:
Ace Pace wrote:So they tried breaking him.
Huh, from the book it seemed Ender had no trouble breaking on his own
Why do you think he was breaking? Both the stress, but notice the large differance in stress between his breakdown in the battle room to breakdown on the astroid(I think it's eros).

On the astroid, the Buggers were invading his dreams. Nevermind he was picking up on the stress layed on Mazer Rackam(sp?), shown by Enders Shadow.

Well, like I said, haven't read that one yet, and there didn't seem to be an indication that the Buggers were purposefully trying to break him using his dreams.

Ace Pace · Post by **Ace Pace** » 2006-10-01 04:38pm

Not in Enders game. Other books yes.

Molyneux · Post by **Molyneux** » 2006-10-01 04:56pm

Trying to break him? Would they, if they had succeeded, then attacked Earth again?

Ace Pace · Post by **Ace Pace** » 2006-10-01 04:59pm

Molyneux wrote:Trying to break him? Would they, if they had succeeded, then attacked Earth again?

As far as I remember no. That is the reason they didn't launch their own Third Invasion. They realised that it's not working and I think they understood it's wrong, because of the fact humans are individuals.

Someone who has read the books more recently and is willing to slog through the hundreds of pages of philosophy can find quotes.

Rekkon · Post by **Rekkon** » 2006-10-01 06:11pm

I read them something on the order of a year ago, and I believe Ace is correct. It is made more clear in the following books, but the Buggers (in simple terms) realized what they were doing was wrong and had no intention of launching a third invasion. However they had no way of telling humanity "hey, we are sorry, please leave us alone now" and tried to just defend themselves. They established the link to Ender initially in an attempt to control him, much as they would one of their drones, since they knew they could not beat him conventionally. When that proved impossible, they tried other things, like swiping tactical plans from his mind.

I almost wish I had stopped at Ender's Game. The Ender's Shadow series was better in my opinion.

ThatGuyFromThatPlace · Post by **ThatGuyFromThatPlace** » 2006-10-02 12:52am

The Ender's shadow series was Awesome, but still not as good as Ender's Game as a standalone.

Patrick Degan · Post by **Patrick Degan** » 2006-10-02 01:09am

Rekkon wrote:I read them something on the order of a year ago, and I believe Ace is correct. It is made more clear in the following books, but the Buggers (in simple terms) realized what they were doing was wrong and had no intention of launching a third invasion. However they had no way of telling humanity "hey, we are sorry, please leave us alone now" and tried to just defend themselves. They established the link to Ender initially in an attempt to control him, much as they would one of their drones, since they knew they could not beat him conventionally. When that proved impossible, they tried other things, like swiping tactical plans from his mind.

I almost wish I had stopped at Ender's Game. The Ender's Shadow series was better in my opinion.

Yep, the Buggers couldn't sue for peace because somehow they never got around to discovering radio. Nevermind that this is sort of essential if you're going to develop a whole host of technologies which require an understanding of the electromagnetic spectrum, and in fact is really sort of impossible not to discover if your society has already started playing with electricity. Only one reason why Ender's Game was one of the dumbest SF books ever written.

ThatGuyFromThatPlace · Post by **ThatGuyFromThatPlace** » 2006-10-02 02:27am

they could have discovered radio easily, I don't think it was ever said that they were somehow ignorant of the EM spectrum and what not, it just never occured to them as a means of communication, being a hivemind with instantaneuos communication and all, seems a bit silly to limit you're commo to light-speed when you have better equipment built in.

Uraniun235 · Post by **Uraniun235** » 2006-10-02 02:37am

I first encountered Ender's Game in it's original short-story form, in some sci-fi compilation. I then read the book, and concluded that Card should have left it as a short story.

Ace Pace · Post by **Ace Pace** » 2006-10-02 04:08am

Uraniun235 wrote:I first encountered Ender's Game in it's original short-story form, in some sci-fi compilation. I then read the book, and concluded that Card should have left it as a short story.

Why?

Rekkon · Post by **Rekkon** » 2006-10-02 10:44am

ThatGuyFromThatPlace wrote:The Ender's shadow series was Awesome, but still not as good as Ender's Game as a standalone.

I agree. The books after Ender's Game wrapped up perfectly in a sickly 'happy happy joy joy' way (which made the giant loose end of the virus creating race all the more irksome) and had me wondering what Card was smoking when he wrote them.

Patrick Degan · Post by **Patrick Degan** » 2006-10-02 12:14pm

ThatGuyFromThatPlace wrote:they could have discovered radio easily, I don't think it was ever said that they were somehow ignorant of the EM spectrum and what not, it just never occured to them as a means of communication, being a hivemind with instantaneuos communication and all, seems a bit silly to limit you're commo to light-speed when you have better equipment built in.

You can't navigate your way through space with telepathy. For that you need RADAR and maps produced through radio-astronomy. Which means you're going to discover radio or you don't have those tools at hand, which means you can't fly through space. Which is why Card's thinking in this area was idiotic.

ThatGuyFromThatPlace · Post by **ThatGuyFromThatPlace** » 2006-10-02 02:09pm

Using Radio for Radar and and Radio-Astronomy != Radio for communication which was the problem, not that they didn't have radio technology, but that our attempts at communicating with them via radio didn't work becasue they don't communicate via radio.

xammer99 · Post by **xammer99** » 2006-10-02 03:47pm

Patrick Degan wrote:
ThatGuyFromThatPlace wrote:they could have discovered radio easily, I don't think it was ever said that they were somehow ignorant of the EM spectrum and what not, it just never occured to them as a means of communication, being a hivemind with instantaneuos communication and all, seems a bit silly to limit you're commo to light-speed when you have better equipment built in.
You can't navigate your way through space with telepathy. For that you need RADAR and maps produced through radio-astronomy. Which means you're going to discover radio or you don't have those tools at hand, which means you can't fly through space. Which is why Card's thinking in this area was idiotic.

By your logic then a we should all be keeping horses around for transportation still, even though something far more useful is already out there and in common every day use...the car.

Seriously...why develop a technology to do something that you can already do perfectly naturally?

Patrick Degan · Post by **Patrick Degan** » 2006-10-02 06:52pm

xammer99 wrote:
Patrick Degan wrote:
ThatGuyFromThatPlace wrote:they could have discovered radio easily, I don't think it was ever said that they were somehow ignorant of the EM spectrum and what not, it just never occured to them as a means of communication, being a hivemind with instantaneuos communication and all, seems a bit silly to limit you're commo to light-speed when you have better equipment built in.
You can't navigate your way through space with telepathy. For that you need RADAR and maps produced through radio-astronomy. Which means you're going to discover radio or you don't have those tools at hand, which means you can't fly through space. Which is why Card's thinking in this area was idiotic.
By your logic then a we should all be keeping horses around for transportation still, even though something far more useful is already out there and in common every day use...the car.

Is that your idea of a rebuttal, or a joke?

Seriously...why develop a technology to do something that you can already do perfectly naturally?

Explain to the class how you navigate the stars with telepathy then. Go on.

Stofsk · Post by **Stofsk** » 2006-10-02 06:55pm

Patrick Degan wrote:
Seriously...why develop a technology to do something that you can already do perfectly naturally?
Explain to the class how you navigate the stars with telepathy then. Go on.

I will think my way around.

Graeme Dice · Post by **Graeme Dice** » 2006-10-02 07:09pm

Patrick Degan wrote:Explain to the class how you navigate the stars with telepathy then. Go on.

Explain to the class how a lack of radio for communication purposes means that there is a lack of radio for every other useful purpose.

Uraniun235 · Post by **Uraniun235** » 2006-10-02 07:39pm

Ace Pace wrote:
Uraniun235 wrote:I first encountered Ender's Game in it's original short-story form, in some sci-fi compilation. I then read the book, and concluded that Card should have left it as a short story.
Why?

I didn't think that the added material carried it's weight. I really didn't care that Ender had a family or about any of the other fluff that was added; I always thought the story was basically "the flame that burns brightest dies soonest" within the premise of a system in which children were raised into military service.

Patrick Degan · Post by **Patrick Degan** » 2006-10-02 07:41pm

Graeme Dice wrote:
Patrick Degan wrote:Explain to the class how you navigate the stars with telepathy then. Go on.
Explain to the class how a lack of radio for communication purposes means that there is a lack of radio for every other useful purpose.

Because the discovery of radio is BASIC: it actually precedes the invention of things like radar and computers and microwave emitters. The very first usage of the discovery is for communications purposes. But if you don't have that to start with, the other allied inventions don't follow.

Sort of like trying to have cars if you've never bothered to invent the wheel.

ThatGuyFromThatPlace · Post by **ThatGuyFromThatPlace** » 2006-10-02 07:54pm

Patrick Degan wrote:
Graeme Dice wrote:
Patrick Degan wrote:Explain to the class how you navigate the stars with telepathy then. Go on.
Explain to the class how a lack of radio for communication purposes means that there is a lack of radio for every other useful purpose.
Because the discovery of radio is BASIC: it actually precedes the invention of things like radar and computers and microwave emitters. The very first usage of the discovery is for communications purposes. But if you don't have that to start with, the other allied inventions don't follow.

Sort of like trying to have cars if you've never bothered to invent the wheel.

ahem: The very first usage of radio was for communication, the technology existed before it was used for radio (I.E. Alexander Stepanovich Popov, in 1894, built his first radio receiver, which contained a coherer. Further refined as a lightning detector, he presented it to the Russian Physical and Chemical Society on May 7, 1895.).[/i]

Patrick Degan · Post by **Patrick Degan** » 2006-10-02 08:05pm

ThatGuyFromThatPlace wrote:
Patrick Degan wrote:
Graeme Dice wrote: Explain to the class how a lack of radio for communication purposes means that there is a lack of radio for every other useful purpose.
Because the discovery of radio is BASIC: it actually precedes the invention of things like radar and computers and microwave emitters. The very first usage of the discovery is for communications purposes. But if you don't have that to start with, the other allied inventions don't follow.

Sort of like trying to have cars if you've never bothered to invent the wheel.
ahem: The very first usage of radio was for communication, the technology existed before it was used for radio (I.E. Alexander Stepanovich Popov, in 1894, built his first radio receiver, which contained a coherer. Further refined as a lightning detector, he presented it to the Russian Physical and Chemical Society on May 7, 1895.).[/i]

Technically true but it does not defeat the overall point. Some of the people on this thread are arguing that Bugger telepathy makes radio unnecessary, which means without an impetus the invention never gets made. It's stated clearly in Card's silly novel that the Buggers don't have radio, which is why they can't communicate with Earth (this begs another question which Card also stupidly leaves unanswered but that will come up inevitably in the course of this debate). My overall point is that without the radio in the first place, you can't go on to develop the technologies crucial to successful spaceflight, which renders the basic assumption behind Card's plot idiotic on its face.