If the empire sets out to conquer the SG universe how...

jareth1138 · Post by **jareth1138** » 2005-10-22 09:46pm

The Starwars Vs Startrek scenarios are FANFICTION or created fans. That means there is no true evidence except for hypothetical situtations based on the general known knowledge.
Also the federations are a bunch of wimps. Of course they would surrender when faced with total annihilation.
Though they do contradict themselves a lot like the battle against the dominion and the borg.
As for ourselves, would you trade your freedoms and rights and everything you believe in for a chance to live.
Don't you have a sense of self? You would choose to live a servile existance where all you do, see, or perform is strictly governed by those who see you as nothing more then a number?
This would be a topic that could easily never get an answer because the answer is subjective. If the Empire suddenly appeared in orbit and demanded our surrender right now, do you think we would surrender?
The Federation might surrender if they fought a losing space battle right to Earth and are offered the option to surrender.
Now maybe some nations would surrender of course, but of course somewould resist. When have humans not resisted attempts by nations, persons or organizations striving to control every aspect of their lives? (Hint: think Nazi germany, Soviet Russia, Japan) Though those living under them accept it, when those very same powers attempted to subjugate others, those being conquered of course fought back. Did Russia surrender to the blitz of Germany. DId the US surrender after the surpise attack and subsequent defeats? NO! Your argument of "oh they can easily kill us, lets surrender everything we hold dear to survive" is absolute bullshit. Quote, "Tyranny, like hell, is not easily conquered; yet we have this consolation with us, that the harder the conflict, the more glorious the triumph. What we obtain too cheap, we esteem too lightly: it is dearness only that gives every thing its value" Thomas Paine American Crisis #1.

Noble Ire · Post by **Noble Ire** » 2005-10-22 10:25pm

Also the federations are a bunch of wimps. Of course they would surrender when faced with total annihilation.
Though they do contradict themselves a lot like the battle against the dominion and the borg.

If the two primary examples of evidence you yourself presented contradict your hypothesis, it is wise to consider revising it.

jareth1138 · Post by **jareth1138** » 2005-10-22 10:43pm

Oops, So I did contradict myself.

Okay to correct myself, what I mean is that in the Star Wars Vs Star Trek scenarios the Federation fights itself until it exhaust all options and most or all of their military combat forces are reduced to nothing. This is due to the fact that the Federation while being not the most aggresive force in the galaxy will fight to the bitter end to defend what they hold dear and for the ideals and values that they feel that starfleet and the federation represent. So while it is non-conclusive whether they would surrender or go down fighting is up to the view point of the writer or reader. My personal opinion is that they go down fighting if negotiations fail to produce a treaty that allows the federation to remain free of direct Imperial rule and keep the Federation for what is stands for and simply have an Alliance where the Federation must provide either war materials or personal.
Now my question to you PunkMaister is what would you choose?
Death with your pride and honor intact, or Life without meaning or significance?

PunkMaister · Post by **PunkMaister** » 2005-10-22 11:01pm

Now my question to you PunkMaister is what would you choose?
Death with your pride and honor intact, or Life without meaning or significance?

That would greatly depend on the circumstances. For example I think that just like in your example the U.S and the rest of the world powers would attempt to hammer some treaty that allows for Earth's political system to remain as unchanged and intact as possible in exhange of paying some taxations and providing whatever information and materials the empire deems necesary.
If all the empire offers is absolute slavery with no end then yes I would much preffer death.
However and this is important. The empire has traditionally being Pro-human... Meaning they would rather subject other sentient beings as slaves. Earth also with it's war history has a good pool for finding good and able soldiers for the empire.

That's just off the top right now!

jareth1138 · Post by **jareth1138** » 2005-10-22 11:34pm

Except PunkMaister I never mentioned Slavery. The Empire would not enslave humans, however there is little to suggest that the Empire would actually allow Earth to keep its current political state.
As for the pool of able and good soldiers, you missed just one tiny point. Would any decent people on Earth who actually believe in freedom and justice would serve in the Galatic Empire the forces other sentient being to be slaves? Americans wouldn't and they have access to the stargate almost exclusively.
Pro-human is only towards the slavery section. The Emperor cares little of peoples values and their beliefs as long as they obey. This means that the rights most countries on Earth have would be potential harmful and would need to be abolished. Sound familiar? Try the American Revolution and the American Civil War. You argument of pro-human policies only go so far and exclude certain aspects that harm your argument. Like the treatment of other beings in repect to our belief of equality.

Noble Ire · Post by **Noble Ire** » 2005-10-23 12:43am

Jareth, I think your view of undying human morality is a bit rose-tinted. Do you honestly believe that every person who fought for the Nazis was a genocidal maniac? Or every person who fought for the Confederacy was doing so to uphold slavery? People who fight in such conflicts, even leaders, often have motives beyond the main goal of the government they are fighting for. I would imagine a very large number of humans would join the Stormtrooper corps if doing so was the only way to save their homeworld from a BDZ, genocide, slavery, and all. Then again, you could simply be conscripted, and you wouldn't have much choice about anything.

PunkMaister · Post by **PunkMaister** » 2005-10-23 12:51am

jareth1138 wrote:Except PunkMaister I never mentioned Slavery. The Empire would not enslave humans, however there is little to suggest that the Empire would actually allow Earth to keep its current political state.
As for the pool of able and good soldiers, you missed just one tiny point. Would any decent people on Earth who actually believe in freedom and justice would serve in the Galatic Empire the forces other sentient being to be slaves? Americans wouldn't and they have access to the stargate almost exclusively.
Pro-human is only towards the slavery section. The Emperor cares little of peoples values and their beliefs as long as they obey. This means that the rights most countries on Earth have would be potential harmful and would need to be abolished. Sound familiar? Try the American Revolution and the American Civil War. You argument of pro-human policies only go so far and exclude certain aspects that harm your argument. Like the treatment of other beings in repect to our belief of equality.

You would not believe how many merceneries are outthere right now that used to be formerly SPECOPS etc. A lot of them not all, simply work for the highest bidder.

And sure there would be a lot of dissidents. Just as there are in his home galaxy. Or how do you think the rebellion was formed?
But our little blue marble has plenty of people that would be more than simpathetic to the Emperor's views and policies. If you don't believe me just take a look at our own sad history. Even by imperial standards our level of savagery in some instances would probably even make Palpy himself hurl!

PunkMaister · Post by **PunkMaister** » 2005-10-23 01:07am

And this again archs back to how the UFO would react if it where an ST vs SW scenario. Again if as you say no rights and no values whatsoever are respected then the UFP would fight to the bitter end just like SG earth would.
But that does not need to be the case as I pointed before.

Besides in both cases by hammering a treaty you buy time in oirder to make contacts that could latter on aid you in regaining your lost freedoms.

Granted that would take a long while in both cases but is within the realm of possibility.

jareth1138 · Post by **jareth1138** » 2005-10-23 01:16am

Even though this is the Galatic Empire we are talking about and the odds of a treaty with a organization less advanced then they are is highly unlikely that would be a probable course of action. Of course the allies in question to help regain their freedoms would have to be more advanced then the Empire or more numerous on a equal technological level to protect Earth from being reduced to slag during the Imperial counter attack. Inaddition the rescue would have to occur shortly after the treaty is signed to prevent the loss of a fighting will in the population and to prevent Imperial indoctrination of the next generation that would not be against the Empire and what it stands for.

PunkMaister · Post by **PunkMaister** » 2005-10-23 01:26am

jareth1138 wrote:Even though this is the Galatic Empire we are talking about and the odds of a treaty with a organization less advanced then they are is highly unlikely that would be a probable course of action. Of course the allies in question to help regain their freedoms would have to be more advanced then the Empire or more numerous on a equal technological level to protect Earth from being reduced to slag during the Imperial counter attack. Inaddition the rescue would have to occur shortly after the treaty is signed to prevent the loss of a fighting will in the population and to prevent Imperial indoctrination of the next generation that would not be against the Empire and what it stands for.

I was thinking of some people in government and other positions making contact with dissidents from the SW galaxy itself as well as the Jaffa, Tokra and off course the Asgard and so on. This is SGverse we are talking about after all. This Earthlings rebbelion would take place mostly off world anyway. Only when they feel strong and safe enough would they launch attacks on Earth's imperial outposts most likely in the form of massive terrorist attacks.
The downside of such attacks though is that it might alienate the Earthers rebellion and turn a substantial number of the population against them as such an attack would probably produce huge civilian casualties.

Post by **Surlethe** » 2005-10-23 03:05pm

PunkMaister wrote:In ST vs SW scenarios Earth is simply conquered. Why can't it work the same way for present day SG earth?

Because, according to you, present-day SG Earth is a "backwater planet"; ST Earth is the capital of the federation. There is an incredibly big difference.

PunkMaister · Post by **PunkMaister** » 2005-10-23 07:34pm

Surlethe wrote:
PunkMaister wrote:In ST vs SW scenarios Earth is simply conquered. Why can't it work the same way for present day SG earth?
Because, according to you, present-day SG Earth is a "backwater planet"; ST Earth is the capital of the federation. There is an incredibly big difference.

Yes it is a backwater world but Earth in the SGverse still has a lot of influence in the galaxy and has managed to become a major player of sorts.
In a sense Earh's position in galactic affairs is not that different from that of the federation. Except there is no official government ruling the galaxy or a quadrant like in ST.

jareth1138 · Post by **jareth1138** » 2005-10-24 07:15am

Except that Earth in the SGverse is not even capable of defending itself. Remeber it is still under the protection of the Asgard under the protected planets treaty. This means that even though Earth is respected by some Gou'lds for its strength etc, most of its galatic influence comes from its relationship with the Asgard, not from Earth itself.
If Earth was on its own it would have no interstellar influence except for its ties with the Jaffa.
While there is no doubt about how many times they have helped fix things they are definitely not a major player by any means. That would be the Asgard.
Heck Earth is not even completely united and their navy consists of maybe 2 ships and some fighters. That would be like saying Taiwan is a major world power just because of their sphere of influence and allies.
Earth is a major focus point in that galaxy because of their allies.

PunkMaister · Post by **PunkMaister** » 2005-10-24 07:12pm

Earth is a major focus point in that galaxy because of their allies.

Which is an extemely important reason not to destroy it.
Not unless you want to incur the wrath of the Asgard and other powerful Earth Allies, but specially the Asgard that say after the Empire foolishly BDZe's Earth just for the heck of it they begin an offensive collapsing suns of mayor systems within the SW galaxy including Coruscant into massive blackholes.

SirNitram · Post by **SirNitram** » 2005-10-24 07:21pm

PunkMaister wrote:
Earth is a major focus point in that galaxy because of their allies.
Which is an extemely important reason not to destroy it.
Not unless you want to incur the wrath of the Asgard and other powerful Earth Allies, but specially the Asgard that say after the Empire foolishly BDZe's Earth just for the heck of it they begin an offensive collapsing suns of mayor systems within the SW galaxy including Coruscant into massive blackholes.

Tell me, PM... As we know the Asgard have only a small handful, possibly only one world.. How long can they trade stars with the Empire?

Darth Yoshi · Post by **Darth Yoshi** » 2005-10-24 07:51pm

Not really disagreeing with you, Nit, but it would depend on how long it would take for the Empire to find and reach the Ida galaxy. Which probably won't be long enough for the Asgard to do anything that'll win a war.

PunkMaister · Post by **PunkMaister** » 2005-10-24 09:26pm

Darth Yoshi wrote:Not really disagreeing with you, Nit, but it would depend on how long it would take for the Empire to find and reach the Ida galaxy. Which probably won't be long enough for the Asgard to do anything that'll win a war.

To win? Most definitely not.

To make quite a mess before they fall? Oh yes!
And remember it will take the Empire a while to reach the Asgard home galaxy while the Asgarf can travel to ours and the SW galaxy to do hit and run attacks collapsing suns at will.

PunkMaister · Post by **PunkMaister** » 2005-10-24 09:29pm

^ Which is why I insist that destroying Earth just for the heck of it is a stupid idea. Besides BDZin the planet would also destroy the outpost along with it's valuable ancient technology.

SirNitram · Post by **SirNitram** » 2005-10-24 09:38pm

So basically your argument is the Asgard would consign themselves to annihilation to 'hurt' a foe. No, real nation-states don't, as a rule, do that.

UCBooties · Post by **UCBooties** » 2005-10-24 09:52pm

The protected planets treaty is only held with the Gou'ld who signed it. It means jack against extra-galactic interlopers. Does that mean that the Asgard will do nothing to defend Earth against the Empire? Most certainly not. It does however mean that if Earth gets rolled they are under no obligation to throw themselves into a guaranteed loss in order to avenge an allied nation. It is instead when you start fortifying the home and mining the hyperspace routes, or else you surrender. Just because the Asgard have the capabilities to put a massive hurt on the GE does not mean that they have any viable reason to do so in this scenario if it will only result in their own curb-stomping. Especialy not if hiding, defense, or peaceful conciliation are an option.

PunkMaister · Post by **PunkMaister** » 2005-10-24 10:34pm

My argument as to whay Earth should and probably would not be destroyed is not just angering the Asgard. I's the fac that Earth also possess pretty good knowledge on ancients tech, they have Atlantis in their control. In general my point is that just destroying Earth for the heck of it not only makes no sense. It would create more problems that it would solve for the empire.

PunkMaister · Post by **PunkMaister** » 2005-10-24 10:37pm

OK let's just say for argument's sake that at least the entire MW galaxy including Earth is conquered w/out much of a struggle.

Does anyone wonder how would the imps react to the SW films when they get to watch them?
How would they feel about that and our overall culture?

Plushie · Post by **Plushie** » 2005-10-25 03:03am

SirNitram wrote:
PunkMaister wrote:
Earth is a major focus point in that galaxy because of their allies.
Which is an extemely important reason not to destroy it.
Not unless you want to incur the wrath of the Asgard and other powerful Earth Allies, but specially the Asgard that say after the Empire foolishly BDZe's Earth just for the heck of it they begin an offensive collapsing suns of mayor systems within the SW galaxy including Coruscant into massive blackholes.
Tell me, PM... As we know the Asgard have only a small handful, possibly only one world.. How long can they trade stars with the Empire?

To be fair, how the hell will the Empire find out the Asgard aren't Milky Way natives? How long will it take them to figure out what galaxy they're from and where it is?

How amazingly freaking long will it take to find those few remaining Asgard planets?

The Asgard simply need to collapse the sun of whatever planet the Imperial Stargate is on and poof, invasion over.

jareth1138 · Post by **jareth1138** » 2005-10-25 12:56pm

Except we talked about the possibility of traveling to the MW galaxy by hyperspace directly. Also if a full scale galatic invasion was incurring the Star system that has the gate to the Empire would be guarded by either drones or ships.
How would the Imperial reaction to our culture be relevent to the topic.
On another note I finally realized what I was getting at for the rights.
By your accord you have Earth simply rollover and play dead at the arrival of the Empire correct? I know that many people of course are not great and upstanding people (myself included probably) that would welcome a few changes for life. You must also remember that not everyone one Earth will simply surrender unless a demonstration of power. Senator Mckenzie is a good example of a force that would resist. He didn't believe the Gou'ld could destroy Earth and was most adament that they would win even though evidence pointed otherwise.
Also as for resistance after the invasion, like you said having people in the gov. conspire to over throw the Empire, why would the Empire let us govern our selves so soon after being conquered?
How woud destroying Earth cause more problems? From what I can tell most of the problems originated and were created by Earth.

PunkMaister · Post by **PunkMaister** » 2005-10-25 07:37pm

From what I can tell most of the problems originated and were created by Earth.

Such as?

Let's see we slaved the whole galaxy... Oh wait that was the Goa'uld.

We mercilessly use bio weapon on defenseless primitive worlds... Oh wait that was the Aschen.

Did Earh fouled up a few times yes and they also did everything they could to fix whatever mess they may have made.

Such as in Thor's Chariot for example trying to fix the problem they created by destroying the Asgard artifact. that protected a primitive world from the Goa'uld or the one in which they damaged a planet's sun etc.

The truth is Earth has helped much more than it has harmed those thart they meet throughout the show.

As for Senator Kinsey (not Mckenzie) he would if anyting use the empire to bring himself to power as the man in charge of the U.S.A because let's face it is what he has wanted all along.

Regarding your point about them letting us govern ourselves immediately that would never happen and I was not suggesting it would.

Never in history an ocuppying power allows for self rule of those they conquered except on the case of removing an ilegitimate government for a legitimate one such as Nicaragua for example.
However once some form of self rule is stablished I don't dobt that some people will begin to mobilize.