Buffy Season 6, The Dead Lesbian Cliche Stupidity(spoilers)

InnerBrat · Post by **InnerBrat** » 2004-06-10 05:30am

I think you need to mention evil Anya, here, Maj. She did the EXACT same thing as Willow when she lost in love. The parallels between the two characters have been there since "Something Blue", at least.

Majin Gojira · Post by **Majin Gojira** » 2004-06-10 10:35pm

I have now posted it in one board...there are 2 others where known Kitten Board Posters are known to post...I'll wait a while longer on those.

neoolong · Post by **neoolong** » 2004-06-10 10:39pm

Where did you post it?

Majin Gojira · Post by **Majin Gojira** » 2004-06-10 10:45pm

Here with a link back here...reposting that monster is just too much work (though there are edits I'd like to make to it). I've told the posters there to bring any counter-points here since that is not a full debate board.

I hope to eventually post it:

Here and Here, where I know the reaction will be the most vehement

Currently testing the waters...some of those boards I'd like to remain a member of...ok, all of them, but still....

neoolong · Post by **neoolong** » 2004-06-10 10:50pm

When was the original FAQ written, 2002? And when did Season 7 happen? Because it seems like if it was written beforehand then Kennedy wouldn't have been a valid example.

But that doesn't change the validity of your arguments though.

Majin Gojira · Post by **Majin Gojira** » 2004-06-10 11:05pm

It had to have been After May 7th of 2002, most likely over the summer of that year. The date of the post, a repost of the original article, is listed as September 8th of 2002.

Season 7 began in September 24th of 2002, and ended (with the series) on May 20th of 2003.

Of course, few kitten board posters have actually WATCHED Season 7...

Majin Gojira · Post by **Majin Gojira** » 2004-06-12 07:29am

Gotta Response:

Yeah.. they require a ten dollar donation from anyone registering with an email on one of the major free email providers, and I make it a policy never to use my real domain based email anywhere that I don't absolutely trust because I hate spam with a passion. Thus I can not reply over there.

I've always rather hated that particular faq, but I can certainly understand the kitten's position.

I don't like the idea that Joss can't do whatever he darn pleases with his characters, and I certainly don't think that he was intending to further a cliche.

However, Tara and Willow were among the first strong lesbians on TV. They were unique in that they did not act like a cliche. The gbl community was cheering and saying "here are these great characters that we can identify with!" then look what Joss goes and does to them.

He didn't just kill one of his own characters and make the other evil. He killed an icon, a character that many identified with.

Joss is resonsible to the audience and large and the story he is telling rather than to the GBL. He didn't owe them anything. Still, that's not going to make the loss hurt any less.

He should be free to tell the story he wants to. However, he tells the story in our world, and it may influence our world in many ways. The story does not stand alone.

To make matters worse, at the time the rumor was that Willow was going to end up with Xander. Now it seems that that was the plan and it was largely the outcry at the death of Tara that lead them to keep her gay. Kennedy was brought in as an attempt to fix what they had done.

And I do wish that I could comment over on the other board to remember that at the time that was written, no one had any idea that Kennedy would be coming.

Skelron · Post by **Skelron** » 2004-06-12 09:49am

While I was unaware of any rumours of a Xander Willow relationship planned (Which seems unlikely as it would have been a step backwards,) The criticism that it was written before season 7 holds a little weight that much is true.

However rather than hold their hands up and go, okay so we have o rexamine this in light of new situations, something I know most of the people here would do, they turned round and slapped a no talking about season 7 Ban on the FAQ. Thats right the FAQ qill ignore season 7. Thats bad form, thats dishonest and hell just plain lazy. As we have argued here Season 7 puts a very definate wrench into their arguments, therefore they are really honour bound to well... SORT IT OUT.

The FAQ is pretty clear about no discussion about post "Seeing Red" events. The issues you have brought up on what can and can't be posted have been brought up before hence that is why it is in the FAQ. Other boards have similar rules to keep the board on topic.

And what is on topic? It seems only evidence which agrees with their argument. I am in no way blaming the person that responded at the site for this, I had to search backwards about Six pages to find this little Gem, and actually I was looking to see if maybe it had been modified for Season 7, Instead I found out that quite simply discussing Season 7 on the FAQ was banned.

Setzer · Post by **Setzer** » 2004-06-12 09:59am

If Xander and Willow ever did get involved, Joss would have to get rid of one of them. Maybe it could have ben a lead in to a Willow spinoff.

Yami Ash · Post by **Yami Ash** » 2004-06-12 12:12pm

Skelron wrote:While I was unaware of any rumours of a Xander Willow relationship planned (Which seems unlikely as it would have been a step backwards,) The criticism that it was written before season 7 holds a little weight that much is true.

However rather than hold their hands up and go, okay so we have o rexamine this in light of new situations, something I know most of the people here would do, they turned round and slapped a no talking about season 7 Ban on the FAQ. Thats right the FAQ qill ignore season 7. Thats bad form, thats dishonest and hell just plain lazy. As we have argued here Season 7 puts a very definate wrench into their arguments, therefore they are really honour bound to well... SORT IT OUT.

The FAQ is pretty clear about no discussion about post "Seeing Red" events. The issues you have brought up on what can and can't be posted have been brought up before hence that is why it is in the FAQ. Other boards have similar rules to keep the board on topic.
And what is on topic? It seems only evidence which agrees with their argument. I am in no way blaming the person that responded at the site for this, I had to search backwards about Six pages to find this little Gem, and actually I was looking to see if maybe it had been modified for Season 7, Instead I found out that quite simply discussing Season 7 on the FAQ was banned.

Geez, they're dumb. If they don't update their FAQ in order to be current, they won't convince anybody that they're anything but stuck in the past

neoolong · Post by **neoolong** » 2004-06-12 09:20pm

So I guess you can just say that everything after and including "Seeing Red" should be discarded. Therefore, they are wrong.

After all, if they get to disregard evidence, you can too.

Bob the Gunslinger · Post by **Bob the Gunslinger** » 2004-06-14 05:14am

They are behaving totally consistent with the whiny-lesbian cliche. You'd think they would want to avoid it, but there it is.

Post by **The Yosemite Bear** » 2004-06-14 09:46am

heh, never saw bill cosby get killed on I -spy, Uhurah, safest character on TOS, anyone notice that sidekick/chuffer Kato kicks more ass then the green hornet?

neoolong · Post by **neoolong** » 2004-06-14 12:24pm

The Yosemite Bear wrote:heh, never saw bill cosby get killed on I -spy, Uhurah, safest character on TOS, anyone notice that sidekick/chuffer Kato kicks more ass then the green hornet?

But it's Bruce Lee. You don't get him to play a character if you don't want him to kick a lot of ass.

Bob the Gunslinger · Post by **Bob the Gunslinger** » 2004-06-16 04:02pm

Bruce Lee was a lesbian?

Wow, you learn some weird things on this board.

Post by **The Yosemite Bear** » 2004-06-19 05:44am

No the intial point was that the Dead lesbian was theory was derived from how hollywood used to treat minorities in movies and television. Which although often rather bad is pretty easy to shoot down...

like the fact that the first Western genre star was a half american indian (Tom Mix)

I was pointing out that even in the heyday of white only TV we still had Bill Cosby and Bruce Lee. ok does that offset the fact that Caesar Romero played the bad guy on so many TV westerns, and Batman as well when his Pot conviction made him unemployable as a heroic actor in movies? Now if I want to talk about Hollywood and Lesbians, I only have to go back to Marrocco and the 1930's when The US imported Germany's most famous Lesbian

damn Marlene you look HOT in that Tux

Post by **The Yosemite Bear** » 2004-06-19 05:50am

Especially since even Hitler was sad to see her go.... (she did bring several communists, jews and others he hated to the US with her when she departed German soil) But let's face it, besides playing a Femme Fatale in a number of pics, Dietrich was the posterchild "Hollywood Lesbain" that straight guys loved. Mind you that the first Lesbain in Hollywood was also scandalous for going to Jazz Clubs, and boinking a hot black blues singer. <Mary Pickford and Billie Holiday, Billie was bi- folks...>