Buffy Season 6, The Dead Lesbian Cliche Stupidity(spoilers)

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Buffy Season 6, The Dead Lesbian Cliche Stupidity(spoilers)

Post by Majin Gojira » 2004-06-07 08:08am

I've been wanting to tear into this one for a WHILE now.

Since the death of Tara in "Seeing Red" a sect of the Buffy community has proclaimed that the act of Killing Tara and sending Willow on a vengance binge perpetuated the so-called "Evil-Dead Lesbian Cliche". While I agree such a cliche does indeed exist (see: "From Hell"), this was not an instance of one.

They have listed the majority of their argument Here.

There are sevaral major problems with it--

It assumes that these things happened BECAUSE Willow and Tara were gay

1) Willow has been known to go on Majic Fueled "problem-Solving" excursions since Season 3 when she was straight, and specifically go for Vengance against an enemy in Season 5's "Tough Love".

2) This is a Joss Whedon Show--THERE ARE NO HAPPY COUPLES THAT LAST...EVER. (With the possible exception of the Finns (Riley and Sam))

3) We've seen multiple STRAIGHT characters do THE EXACT SAME THING that Willow did (usually without magic) BEFORE and SINCE. (Wesley and Illyria (Angel Season 5), Holtz (Angel Season 3), The Vampire Couple from "Heartthrob" (Angel Season 3), etc.

I'll fully disect their FAQ later--because the STUPID, it BURNS....
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Post by InnerBrat » 2004-06-07 09:18am

Agh! This is bad, BAD!

I'll finish the FAQ then come back to you, but the basic "That all lesbians and, specifically lesbian couples, can never find happiness and always meet tragic ends. " is bullshit. For the reason you listed and *cough*WillowKennedy*cough*

-halfway through reading it-
So basically, they're saying that any gay relationship breaking up ever would be a horrible homophobic thing to include in the show? Bollocks to that.
All of the gay characters to ever grace Sunnydale - Larry, Tara, Willow, and apparently Andrew - have ended up either dead or evil. All of them. One hundred percent
Um, no. Willow, Kennedy and Andrew were good and alive when I checked.
Larry was a disposable footballer first and a gay high schooler second. Most of Sunnydale High died.
Tara was a Scooby significant other. Hence horrible ending to the relationship.
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Post by Durandal » 2004-06-07 09:39am

Andrew is not gay. He's very effeminate, but he doesn't drive stick. Or did you not watch the third-to-last episode of Angel, where he has two gorgeous Italian babes show up at his door?
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Re: Buffy Season 6, The Dead Lesbian Cliche Stupidity(spoile

Post by Batman » 2004-06-07 09:44am

Majin Gojira wrote: It assumes that these things happened BECAUSE Willow and Tara were gay
nononono is HAS to be causal because we know that the narrative concept of 'character goes on a rampage after loved one dies' has NEVER been used for straight people.
Oh wait...
What was it about JarJar and that 'Step'n'Fetchit' thing?
'How can it be a cliche if you have to explain it to everybody?' :wtf:
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Post by InnerBrat » 2004-06-07 09:57am

Durandal wrote:Andrew is not gay. He's very effeminate, but he doesn't drive stick. Or did you not watch the third-to-last episode of Angel, where he has two gorgeous Italian babes show up at his door?
Angel suffers horribly at the hands of Channel whatever-its-on-now, so I haven't seen the last series, but Andrew's crushed on Spike (season 6) and Xander (7), so he definitely likes the boys.
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Post by Majin Gojira » 2004-06-07 11:45am

Andrew is most definitely Bisexual at best. He's been seen jonsin' for the men, ignoring a lesbian makeout scene right in front of him ("Storyteller"), and goin' with hot italian girls, and all for the mind-control-love slave thing back in season 6. He's most likely bi.
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Post by Majin Gojira » 2004-06-08 05:27pm

Brainstorm--their intire tyrade boils down to them wanting special treatment for a minority whilst claiming that it is equal treatment.

Gee, isn't the first time I've heard THAT...
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Post by Batman » 2004-06-08 05:41pm

Majin Gojira wrote:Brainstorm--their intire tyrade boils down to them wanting special treatment for a minority whilst claiming that it is equal treatment.
Through, which to me is the height of duplicity, labelling the equal treatment the characters actually GET, as discriminative.
Oh, and Majin, your spelling of 'tirade' looks like something straight out of WH40K. I like it. :lol:
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Post by Majin Gojira » 2004-06-08 06:40pm

...D'oh!
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Re: Buffy Season 6, The Dead Lesbian Cliche Stupidity(spoile

Post by Anarchist Bunny » 2004-06-08 10:12pm

Majin Gojira wrote: 2) This is a Joss Whedon Show--THERE ARE NO HAPPY COUPLES THAT LAST...EVER. (With the possible exception of the Finns (Riley and Sam))
What about Zoe and Wash.
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Post by Majin Gojira » 2004-06-08 10:49pm

Sorry, I'm not that familiar with Firefly :(, I forgot that one...
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Re: Buffy Season 6, The Dead Lesbian Cliche Stupidity(spoile

Post by Yami Ash » 2004-06-09 01:04am

Anarchist Bunny wrote:
Majin Gojira wrote: 2) This is a Joss Whedon Show--THERE ARE NO HAPPY COUPLES THAT LAST...EVER. (With the possible exception of the Finns (Riley and Sam))
What about Zoe and Wash.
They didn't even get a full season. If Joss had had time, then you would have seen.

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Post by InnerBrat » 2004-06-09 03:29am

Majin Gojira wrote: and all for the mind-control-love slave thing back in season 6. He's most likely bi.
Not that I'm saying he isn't bi in light of Angel, but anything he necessarily did in Season 6 was out of his infatuation with Warren. He was a sheep to the highest degree then, and thought he had to want the mind-control-love-slave thing.
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Post by neoolong » 2004-06-09 03:56am

Well, it's not like we haven't seen someone go from liking one sex to another.
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Post by Majin Gojira » 2004-06-09 12:31pm

In summary this FAQ states:

1) That Joss Whedon and the writers of Mutant Enemy are NOT homophobic, but have perpetuated a hurtful lesbian cliché with the death of Tara and the resulting Vengeance Willow storyline that ended Season Six of Buffy the Vampire Slayer.
Because nothing bad should ever happen to a gay character ever![/sarcasm]
2) That, in public statements made both before and after Tara's death was planned, Joss Whedon and other Mutant Enemy writers indicated that Tara would not be killed off.
OMIGOD! He LIED TO US! He's EVIL!
3) That creative freedom, ignorance and/or absence of malice on the part of Joss Whedon and Mutant Enemy do not excuse the social harm this storyline has caused.
Congratulations, you reacted exactly as they wanted you to--hurt. The point of tara's death was to be a "Shot in the gut" and you're reacting like it was. You've fallen into their trap.
The Death of Tara, the Fall of Willow and the Dead/Evil Lesbian Cliché FAQ

Copyright © 2002 Kyraroc and Willowlicious.This FAQ may be reproduced in whole as long as this copyright statement remains intact.
Because god knows you want to spread the word and preach this wherever you can...
1) What generally is the "Dead/Evil Lesbian Cliché"?

The "Dead/Evil Lesbian Cliché" is a version of the basic "dead/evil minority cliché" in which minority characters - gay people in general, all people of color - are introduced into a storyline in order to be killed or play the villain. For example, American Indians were almost always villains in westerns. The "black guy" used to be the servant in early films, then he became the drug dealer, then, when "equality" was reached, he got to be the funny sidekick who is tragically killed while all the white guys managed to get away. These clichés are so well known that many recent film comedies have made fun of the token "black guy" who gets killed.

Why were minorities always portrayed as villains or always killed off? Hatred and ignorance, to put it bluntly.
Because there can't be a story where this happens and it's NOT the case. I smell Broad Brush Fallacy.
Ironically, as various groups obtained more civil rights and demanded more representation in films and television, villain, sidekick and "dead cliche" roles were easy ways for producers to place minorities in their films without giving them meaningful roles. They could take credit for being "enlightened" without drawing ire from mainstream white America. So, whenever minorities started questioning why they received only "lesser" roles, producers could shoot back, "Well, I put a black guy in the movie." But he's dead. "But he made an appearance." But he died. "But it's better than nothing." But he always dies. "Sorry. The white guy could've died, but he just didn't this time." But the white guy never dies. "But he could." But he didn't. "But it's theoretically possible." But...
If Conspiracy ravings come next, I'm stopping right here...
That's a very frustrating and insulting argument. We'd like to say that times have changed, but when you get to Question #10, revert back to this section and draw your own conclusions.

Onward...

2) What specifically is the "Dead/Evil Lesbian Cliché"?

That all lesbians and, specifically lesbian couples, can never find happiness and always meet tragic ends.
Because we know that NEVER happens to straight couples--Oh, wait...

Sorry, but if the series in question does not allow ANY relationships to work (or a large portion theiroff), demanding special treatement for lesbians is downrigth bigoted.
One of the most repeated scenarios is that one lesbian dies horribly and her lover goes crazy, killing others or herself. (Sound familiar?)
...because we knw that Straight characters would never do that, especially on Buffy...except for Holtz, the vampire couple in "Heartthrob"...

I also love the lack of explicit examples.
Until very recently, gays and lesbians were portrayed in film, television, literature and theater to be evil and miserable.
I find this funny. Why? because they later admit that most Lesbians have miserable lives.
They would be villains or weak victims or psychologically unstable people.
And of course, this is a homophobic thing to do. It couldn't be the writers trying to create an overtly sympathetic character for the audience to get attached too...Oh, wait--"Boogie Nights"
They would stalk and try to pervert straight people. If one of them fell in love with someone of the same sex, this love would lead to death or insanity or both. A classic film example of this is 1961's The Children's Hour starring Audrey Hepburn and Shirley MacLaine. MacLaine's character hangs herself after she confesses her love for Hepburn.
Because killing lesbians is bad, Nothing the narrative does can change that!
Two films that portray predatory lesbians are Walk on the Wild Side (1962) with Barbara Stanwyck and Young Man With a Horn (1950) starring Lauren Bacall. The Fox (1968) features Sandy Dennis as a lesbian who is crushed to death by a falling tree immediately after making love to Anne Heywood. A gay example (and there are TONS)
Telling that they are denotaing "Gay" as male-only, no?
is Rebel Without a Cause (1955) in which Sal Mineo spends the film crushing on James Dean before getting a bullet in the back.
"Because he was gay!" :roll:
These older films depicted gays this way because the filmmakers were trying to tell people that homosexuality is wrong.
Reviewing movies is like palentology. The evidence is there, but no one seems to agree upon it.

If the author had ever actually STUDDIED dramatic analysis, they would know that it would mean different things to different people. Assuming authors intent without explicit quotation is downright stupid.
They wanted to show that no good could come from it. If you are gay, you are doomed. Period. Heterosexuality was the only safe option.
Of course, they fail to mention whether of not the straight couples in those examples work out any better. Just to let you assume that they do.
One would hope that the cliché had died with modern times, but sadly it lives on. The intended moral message that homosexuality is wrong has mostly given way to a results-based exploitation. Lesbians and lesbian couples meet tragic fates in an alarmingly disproportionate number of films and TV shows. One of the most notorious recent examples is Basic Instinct (1992), in which Sharon Stone's character is a murderer and her girlfriend is crazy, jealous and ends up dead.
Assuming that they were like that BECAUSE they were gay is a rather homophobic statement on the author's part--God I love it when minorities hate on themselves, the delicious Irony!
Another is Heavenly Creatures (1994), which has the added horror of being a true story.
So all claims that such events are unrealistic go OUT THE WINDOW! I love it when they destroy their OWN arguments!
In this film two teenage girls develop an intense sexual friendship which is blamed for the girls brutally murdering one of their mothers.
But is it explcitly the CAUSE of it?
Lost and Delirious (2001) depicts a lesbian relationship at a boarding school that ends with one girl denying her love for the other because the peer pressure is too painful and the scorned girl leaping to her death after slowly going mad.
Refer to the "Lesbians have a tough life" quote you already made, foo.
High Art (1998) ends with the overdose death of Ally Sheedy's lesbian character. Mulholland Drive (2001) ends with a lesbian having her ex-girlfriend murdered then turning a gun on herself.
Because murder-suicides only happen to gay couples--Oh, wait...
As for television, recent examples of lesbians dying horribly or being evil have appeared in literally hundreds of TV episodes. Just a few of the shows that have perpetuated this discouraging cliché are: 24, All My Children, Babylon 5, Dark Angel
This is the only one I know of and have seen--Here, gay main character "Originalk Cindy" meets up with an old flame who unfortunatly was used by the Evil Government to test super-viruses...she died as a result, Cindy sulked about it for a few episodes.

However, in a series where the main straight couple is kept appart by a specifically genetic targeted virus, and mixed in a love SQUARE, such events are paltry at best. There were no Happy couples in the entire series run. Not even Dog Boy got a happy ending when his blind girlfriend was killed by Aimes White.

Specifics matter, foo.
ER, Law & Order, Millennium, Northern Exposure, NYPD Blue, The Practice, Quantum Leap, Xena: Warrior Princess,
I find the last example fuckin' HISTERICAL.
and, now, very sadly, Buffy the Vampire Slayer.

The impression that these films and TV programs leave, through blatant moralizing and/or thoughtless exploitation, is that lesbian relationships end in death and misery.
You've already conceeded misery, so death is really all you got.
There are no happy endings.
If the same is true for straight characters, the point is moot.
This is the image that has been driven into the psyche of gay people. There is no hope for you. You cannot be happy. This message has also reinforced the bigotry of others by either leading people to believe that gays are evil and worthy of nothing but hatred, or by alluding that they are sick and pitiable, in desperate need of conversion and curing.
Any gay board members care to confirm or deny this?
3) How does Tara's death and Willow's descent into vengeance fall into the "Dead/Evil Lesbian Cliché?"
When Willow on vengance spries/Magic problem solving excursions has been a staple of the show since SEASON 3 (Examples: Season 3: "Lovers Walk", Season 4: "Something Blue", "Wild at Heart", Season 5 "Tough Love")
Well, for starters, Tara meets a typically violent end as a bullet rips through her chest and showers Willow with her blood. Worse, her death causes Willow to go crazy with grief
because only gay characters do that...even though Wesley, Holtz, James, and Conner all did the same thing...and were all STRAIGHT MEN.
and go on an evil rampage that includes sadistic torture, mutilation and murder, followed by an attempt to destroy the world.
See the above sitations as references to not only other characters doing similar things, but of Willow already being set up as being CAPABLE OF DOING THOSE THINGS.

Furthermore--Read the "Magic Box" Supliment for the Buffy RPG, whose rules follow cannon very closely. It states that Sucking Magic out of Dark Sources effects the suck-er mentally and emotionally.

She was drawing on Evil Forces...You expeced it NOT to effect her?
It's a two-for-one lesbian cliché package, complete with one dead lesbian and one evil lesbian.
Becuase Willow was then Unredeemably evil--Oh, wait...
The setting and events leading to Tara's death also fall horribly into the storied lesbian cliché. One of the most overused features of the lesbian cliché is that the death is generally directly associated with the act of lesbian sex.
Even though they have had Lesbian Sex Before and nothing bad happened. Most of it was "metaphoric-Spell Sex" on the WB, but UPN allowed more explicite examples..."Once more with Feeling" anyone?
It usually occurs soon after a real or implied sex scene in order to cement the connection. Tara died at the end of an episode in which she spent practically the entire time having sex with Willow;
Notice they don't tell you WHY they were having so much sex.
further, she died immediately after a scene of heavy sexual flirtation and beside the bed in which she and Willow made love.
Reference the "Shot in the Gut" quote used by Joss repeatedly. It was meant to be horribly painful, and you're mearly explaining WHY it was.
What is even more damaging is that BtVS writers chose to kill Tara and change Willow and Tara's sex scenes from metaphorical to literal within the same episode. Up until "Seeing Red," all of Willow and Tara's sexual activity had been shrouded in magical metaphor. A sensual magic spell that ended with Willow writhing in orgasmic ecstasy was used to illustrate their first time making love in Season Four's "Who Are You?" Tara magically floated above the couple's bed as Willow hovered out-of-frame in Season Six's "Once More, With Feeling." They never kissed and barely touched during those "love" scenes. But "Seeing Red" removed all magical metaphors and placed Willow and Tara naked in bed together for the very first time. Viewers finally saw them behave like the straight couples on the show...and immediately one died and one turned evil. This seems to say that Willow and Tara were safe as long as things were metaphorical and hidden, but the moment their sex life was brought out in the open, there was hell to pay.
It couldn't possibly be because different networks have different stances on What amount of Lesbian Sex can occur on TV.
Tara could have been shot in the garden (like Buffy), but she was killed in the bedroom after partaking in the cardinal sin of lesbian sex. This has been done over and over again in film and TV with devastating results, it didn't need to be repeated on BtVS no matter what the writers claim their intention was.
Read: I was hurt by what the writers did! Sure, they intended it to hurt, but it still hurt and I'm all upset!
Compare this to the deaths of straight characters in BtVS - such as Jenny,
Neck snapped by Angelus after cat and mouse game. I'm sure if she had been Gay, you'd be saying the same thing.
Angel
HE DIDN'T DIE, HE WAS BODILY SENT TO HELL YOU FUCKING IDIOT!
Joyce
Another Emotional Shot in the gut, Buffy finding her dead body hours after she had passed on. Another Example of SIMILAR THINGS HAPPENING ON THE SHOW.
and Buffy (both times).
One Death from villain and One Death from Sacrifice don't really compare. Are you going to tell me that her sacrifice at the end of the "Gift" was not ment to be emotionally painful/Sorrowfull for the viewers?

Oh, Right, She wasn't gay.
Not a single one occurs after a real or implied sexual act.
Technically, Angel's (if you insist on using his example) did.
In the cases where sex is even mentioned in passing much earlier in the episode, as with Jenny (who was looking forward to her reconciliation with Giles) and Joyce (who was finally dating again), there is no consummation; the deaths therefore cannot possibly be viscerally felt as punishments for acts performed.
"Because my interpretation and emotional reaction to the events displayed are the RIGHT ones! To HELL with Everyone elses!"
In fact, they work from the opposite emotional angle - disappointment at an anticipation of something good, unfulfilled.
Are you saying that Willow and Tara's Relationship could not have continued had she lived? I Smell Hypocracy!
A closer cousin to the post-sex fates of Willow and Tara might be what happened to Angel, who turned evil immediately after sex.
Establishing that ALL SEX IS BAD in the Buffyverse. You're asking for special treatment, fucktard.
It's interesting to note that in that case, the writers explicitly said that they were doing that deliberately in order to make a point about men who seem to change for the worse after sex. Which means that Tara's post-sex death happened in a show where the connection between sex itself and bad things following sex had already been deliberately established and discussed. However the scene was intended, the show's own structure and history would seem to reinforce the notion that Tara and Willow were punished for having lesbian sex.
Sorry, doesn't work out when you ask for Special Treatment of a Minority.
But, while possibly linked in theme, the negative impact of the fate of Angel and the fate of Willow and Tara are wildly divergent. Angel's fate as a straight white male was not an oft-repeated example of a damning and hurtful cliché, but rather a fresh, clever metaphor for male sexual behavior.
Oh for the love of SHIT...So, if Angel's case had precidence, it would be bad? DOUBLE STANDARD ALERT!
It was a new look at an old story. Willow and Tara's fate is an old look at an old story that perpetuates a hopeless outlook for lesbians.
Which you already admited to being TRUE. Concession Accepted.
And what of Willow? While it is believable that this historically gentle, moral character, who also carries deep-seated insecurities and rage, would murder Warren to avenge Tara's death, her utter descent into evil is extreme and over-the-top, to say the least.
Already dealt with.
Warren's murder is not a quick "crime of passion," but a prolonged stomach-turning gore-fest that climaxes in his skinning and immolation.
See Previous references to RPG and Precidence...and Also...VAMP!WILLOW.
Her thirst for blood unsatisfied, Vengeance Willow (as UPN calls her)
Actually, as far as I know, "Darth Rosenburg" and "Dark Willow" are the terms used.

Strangely , there was no uproar about Anya's Vengance Demonhood...oh wait...she's STRAIGHT.
then tries to hunt down Warren's accomplices, Andrew and Jonathan, eliminate her friends
Who were getting in the way, and not very activly trying to elimiate her friends Either--they were just an obstical in her path. Lovely Misrepresentation.
and then destroy the world. And, of course, Willow's descent immediately follows the first material, non-metaphorical sex scenes Willow and Tara have been allowed.
Network Change Not Withstanding.
Vengeance Willow's total meltdown mixed with its unfortunate sexual timing strains credibility and, unfortunately, falls head-first into the unstable, evil lesbian cliché. Was, as so many lesbian cliché movies have suggested, Willow's love for Tara so extreme, unhealthy and twisted as to cause her to try to destroy everything and everyone?
Is you interpretet it that way, I'd suggest seeking help.
And Willow's magic, once the show's primary metaphor for lesbian sex and love, was instead in Season Six portrayed as dark, addictive, and leading to insanity.
Then why didn't this happen to Tara?

It was because of Willow's Personality that it happened. Being Gay was just a sidenote.
The message--unintended as it may have been--of this storyline: Lesbian love is an intense, dangerous thing. Death and destruction awaits.
That's ONE interpretation. There are MULTIPLE interpretations for ANY ONE EVENT. Go take a Dramatic Analysis class.
Thank god Xander is there to talk Willow down from her destructive path with anecdotes about yellow crayons, or who knows what would have happened? A man saves the world from the crazy lesbian. What a horrible, painful and insulting way for Willow and Tara's relationship to end.
I thought it ended with Tara's Death. And wouldn't "Grief Maddened Woman" be a more appropriot, accurate term. Being Gay is not the defining feature of Willow's character, you single-minded simpelton. But one aspect of a complex character in a complex universe. Dumbing her down to just being "gay" robs both Willow AND Tara of their complexity.
4) But how can one character death, even of a beloved character, really add to the impact of such a cliché?
People really ask this question?
But it does, even if it's hard to see when looking at any given single example.
If you have to explain it that much, it's not really a cliche.
Practically any example of the lesbian cliché, or in fact any kind of cliché, will tend to sound like crying wolf when presented by itself in the absence of other examples - especially when the show being talked about is reasonably sophisticated and not a clear case of pure exploitation.
Or the abscense of happy couples permiates the seires completely.
A cliché doesn't become a cliché in a vacuum, and it doesn't have to seem like some kind of obvious, monstrously bad piece of writing. A cliché becomes a cliché when the weight of hundreds and hundreds
22 claimed cliche's, few "Clearly explained" examples.
of previous examples make any given example another piece in the pile. We're not pointing to dead Tara and saying, look how obvious a cliché this was. We're pointing to a pile of hundreds and hundreds of dead and evil film, TV, theater, and novel lesbians and saying, why add Willow and Tara to that pile?
Especially since it is demanding special treatment for a gay couple?
5) It's well known that Mutant Enemy is far from homophobic. Shouldn't you just be grateful that they gave you gay characters at all? Doesn't the positive role model of a same-sex couple that Willow and Tara have provided for two years make up for how things ended?

We are grateful. We are SO grateful. And we've said so every chance we've gotten. We've written letters to Mutant Enemy and Fox praising and thanking the show for giving gay people, especially questioning youth, two beautiful, caring lesbian characters that they could relate to. We've encouraged the media to pay attention to and praise the Willow/Tara storyline. We've begged friends and family to watch the show. Some of us have been lucky enough to meet Mr. Whedon, Ms. Hannigan, Ms. Benson, and other Mutant Enemy staffers and tell them how much this storyline means to the gay community and how much we appreciate their efforts.
As long as the couple was happy and alive, things were good--they didn't even notice the Evil Lesbian cliche in Season 5 "Tough Love"!
Willow and Tara have indeed provided a role model which was nearly unique in prime-time television, and have served as an example of the beneficial effects such a positive image can have. Numerous letters have been written by gay teens and adults detailing how the existence of Willow and Tara have helped them find hope for the future, come out of the closet, or become comfortable with their orientation.
"And then, they were treated like every OTHER couple on the series, that just can't happen!"
However, rather than making up for Tara's death, it actually just made it worse. People placed their trust in the Willow/Tara relationship, and came to regard it as a rare safe place where they could return to renew their hopes; a fairly natural thing to do in light of the fact that there were so few other places they could go to do so. So when the Willow/Tara relationship collapsed into the same cliché of death and insanity
I don't know about you, but she didn't look insane to me--just very, very angry. I love you claiming you own interpretations as facts with little support.
as so many others had before, hope and trust that had built up over years was crushed.
Like Joss has never done THAT before (Buffy/Angel, Buffy/Riley, Buffy/Spike (HE RAPED HER IN THE SAME FUCKING EPISODE!), Welsey/Lilah, Wesley/Fred/Illyria...the list goes on)

but wait, they were straight, it doens't count.l
The message
That you interpret
seemed to be that there is no hope, no safe place, and that the happiness was a lie - death and derangement will always be the end result.
So you want a double standard? How is that equality?
6) So did ME simply do this unwittingly, not knowing about the evil/dead lesbian cliché?

But they did know.
FUCK! Consipracy Drivel!
Sadly, this is part of why Tara's death hurts so much. We talked to Mutant Enemy and they talked back. They said they understood where we were coming from and that they knew how important the Willow/Tara storyline was in social context. They, on their own without prodding, publicly claimed knowledge of the "Dead/Evil Lesbian Cliché" and repeatedly made statements indicating that they would never do it. Here are some ME quotes regarding Tara's future on the show:

Doug Petrie (Fandom Shop 2/21/00): "Willow and Tara are going to have a good, happy, satisfying relationship. That's something that we're more acutely aware of and we definitely don't want to touch on 'being a lesbian is bad.' We've all seen shows where if you have any kind of gay tendencies, you must be killed or made to suffer for no other reason other than you're gay. We're hyper aware of that, so we're more predisposed to have things work out for Willow and Tara. In fact, if Tara were a guy, I would predict a near 100 per cent chance of a breakup for Willow. The fact that Tara is not a guy may make things work out better, because we can avoid what we feel is this old cliché."

Joss Whedon (Bronze Beta 5/24/00): "...one post from a gay or questioning teen saying the show helped them is worth six hundred hate letters...Here's the word: Tara's not gonna disappear. She's part of the show, part of Willow's life."

Joss Whedon (E! Online 5/01): "I have no plans to send Tara anywhere. Amber (Benson) and Alyson (Hannigan) have such great chemistry; they're so great together, and they're very romantic together. We have terrible, terrible things to do to them because they're on my show, so needless to say, horrible things will happen--but as a couple, I think they work really well. As for Amber, even if she weren't going out with Willow, I think she's become a big part of the heart of the show."

Steven DeKnight (Bronze Beta 1/25/02): "As for Tara getting killed--OVER MY DEAD BODY!"

Drew Greenberg (Bronze Beta 4/01/02)): "Amber (Benson) and Emma (Caulfield) are both sticking around, neither one is going anywhere, so don't worry."

Holy fuck! They LIED to you!
Besides the reassuring words of the writers, the reputation of Buffy the Vampire Slayer itself provided great hope that "The Dead/Evil Lesbian Cliché" would never touch Willow and Tara. The entire premise of BtVS is built around a shattered cliché. Buffy herself was created as the antithesis of the stereotypically helpless blonde girl who is always killed by the monster in horror films. Buffy is a blonde girl who kicks the monster's ass. Up until now, BtVS has been known for its clever writers who take glee in over-turning any and all clichés. Other clichés BtVS has conquered include the "magically appearing younger sibling/cousin cliché." This was brilliantly mocked when Buffy's previously unheard of little sister Dawn suddenly appeared in the midst of S5, and the oblivious Scoobies acted as though she'd been there all along. "Buffy: The Musical" overcame the silliness of the cast randomly bursting into song by making the Scoobies the unwilling participants of a musical production forced upon them by a demon. This mocked the "novelty episode cliché" by openly winking at the conceit of the ploy and making it a plot point to be solved.

Mutant Enemy knows clichés. They knew all about the "Dead/Evil Lesbian Cliché" by their own admission and their own experience.
And they decided to actually use legitimate character driven reasons to use it.
Update: During a Succubus Club radio interview on 5/15/02, ME producer David Fury admitted the following: " In retrospect, I can see the cliché . That was not our intent, we wanted to show (Willow and Tara) together and happy. We dramatized them being back together. It created the impression in a lot of people's mind that the event of her death was linked to them having sex. I do understand it, I say oh yeah. It was not intended. We make mistakes."

While it is gratifying to hear Mr. Fury not only admit the existence of the cliché , but also that the Willow/Tara storyline falls into it (something Mr. DeKnight was unwilling to do), it is disappointing that he claims ME can only see this in retrospect. It is clear from ME's previous statements on the subject that they were well aware of the cliché before planning Tara's demise. They were aware of it, they indicated they would not repeat it...then they did it anyway.
OMIGOD he doesn't remember everything he said! HE'S HUMAN! AHHH!
Update: During a Succubus Club radio interview on 5/22/02, ME writer Jane Espenson stated: "I am very very sorry about Tara, really. We really feel bad. It is very possible that we did a bad thing. And I don't want to completely exonerate us. It is possible."

First David Fury admits he can see the cliché of Tara's death, then Jane Espenson admits that ME may have done "a bad thing" by killing Tara. Slight progress.
Bcause of constant harrasment, death threats and campaigns to end the show.
7) Former BtVS writer Steven DeKnight clearly said that Tara wasn't killed because she was gay, but that she was a "plot device" in order to hurt Willow. He said she was treated as a "real person," and that's all you can really ask for. Doesn't that nullify the cliché?

No. First of all, how can Tara be both a mere "plot device" - a tool to get at Willow - and also be a "real person"?
You've never studied an ounce of dramatic writing in you entire life, have you?
That is a contradiction.
You flesh out characters and make them real, but they are all slaves to the story.
They can't have it both ways. Is Anya only a "plot device" to get to Xander? No. She has her own storyline and Emma Caulfield is a full regular in the credits. Is Spike a mere "plot device" to get at Buffy? No. Storyline. Credits.
Actually, they do have it both ways, black/white fallacy again.
Amber Benson was the only Scooby significant other kept out of the credits. Tara was sent away most of S6 and not given an individual storyline, only to be brought back as a "plot device" to make Willow go crazy.
Despite interacting with Dawn as a mother figure in the middle of Season 6, having her own life throughout it aside from being "Willow's Girlfriend".

Furthermore, you admit that she WAS a plot device, concession accepted.
From this, one can only conclude that ME didn't view Tara as a "real person" at all. She was a disposable object and she was treated as such.

Did ME kill Tara because she was gay? No. But intentions don't matter, results do.
Read: "My Interpretation of the events" in place of "Results".
The sad fact is that most lesbian couples meet horrible ends in films and television and Willow and Tara met a horrible end, too.
Let's ignore Kennedy for the moment...
They were the FIRST and ONLY long-term lesbian couple on network television and now they are horribly lost.
When the same thing happens to Straight characters on the Same show, your point is moot.
There is no other couple to replace them.
Sorry Kennedy...
ME killed the unicorn for a cheap plot device they swore they were above.
"WAAH! They Lied!"
All the straight main characters survived
Anya's not dead?
and have a chance for happiness just as they have each and every season of BtVS (Angel was brought back).
1. A chance does not mean they will get it, ESPECIALLY ON BUFFY

2. Angel didn't get and CANNOT get happyness.
Only the gay ones are dead/evil.
Because both Willow and Warren are STILL evil...oh, wait...
As usual. Hence, the cliché. All of the gay characters to ever grace Sunnydale - Larry, Tara, Willow, and apparently Andrew - have ended up either dead or evil.
Bullshit, see above.
All of them. One hundred percent. Also, the only two characters whose behaviour was laced with bisexual undertones, Faith and VampWillow, are also mysteriously dead and/or evil.
You fuckin cunt, Faith is trying to redeam herself in prison. What? Is there no chance for redemption? What show are you watching?



8) Wouldn't you agree that the story is more important than any of the characters on Buffy? Why then would you object to killing off Tara if that's what was needed to advance Willow's story?

Writing is about making choices. Mutant Enemy had plenty of opportunities to send Willow down her dark magic path before "Seeing Red," and they chose not to use them. They could have, for example, had Willow pulled into darkness by her own pride and/or her own insecurity. Willow was clearly headed down this path early in Season Six when she raised Buffy from the dead, threatened Giles, and fought with Tara. But the writers chose to change directions and occupy her with a physical magical "addiction" until May sweeps when they could kill Tara and send her on a quest for vengeance.
Because that's when big shit happens in TV land. Hence "Sweeps".
Mutant Enemy deliberately chose the cliché when plenty of other possibilities were available to them.
Even though you only list one that screws up the timeline completely.
Not to mention that Willow's Season Six vengeance storyline is merely an extreme retread of Willow's actions in Season Five's "Tough Love," in which she attacked Glory for brain-sucking Tara. Necessary forward progression? That's very arguable.
It's also forshadowing of Season 6, as well as the other examples I've mentioned. Concession Accepted. Eat Shit and Die in Cliche-land.
9) Joyce and Jenny died and didn't come back. Why is Tara's death any different just because she's a lesbian? Plus, plenty of Straight White Male characters have died on BtVS, too.

Yes, Joyce and Jenny died, but 1) they weren't Scoobies and we are discussing W/T's treatment as compared to the other core Scoobies, B/S/X/D/A,
Anya is now dead and not coming back. So are Jessey, Doyle, Cordelia and Fred. Sorry, No Special Treatment.
2) they were adults whose deaths were foreshadowed and given moral reason (Jenny)
Which Can be viewed as cliche and sexist, but it's not for some reason.
and great meaning (Joyce)
So Tara's death had no great meaning? HA!
3) Robia LaMorte had personal reasons for leaving the show, Amber Benson has said she wanted to stay
Irrelevant.
4) Joyce's death was planned and carefully laid out since S1 in order to provide a lesson to the entire Scooby Gang, Tara's death was decided upon last year because it was the easiest way to hurt Willow, it was a means to an end, there was no moral reason and certainly no meaning
Even though you claim it repeatedly? Concession Accepted!
5) they weren't minorities.
Liar. Jenny was a Gypsy. In certain areas of europe, that IS a minority.
So, Joyce and Jenny are not relevant to the discussion, but just to be thorough, let's discuss the impact of their loss for a moment.
"Whilst I claim that Tara's death didn't have any impact even though I am having an extraordinarily emptional reaction to it"
They died and who was left in Sunnydale to have straight sex and pursue the right of happiness? Who? Oh, that's right. Buffy, Xander, Anya, Dawn, Giles, Oz, Riley, Angel, etc, etc, etc.
Oh, Hi Kennedy.
Now let's kill Tara. Who's left to have gay sex and pursue the right of happiness? Who? Oh, Willow, the cliched crazy, bereft lesbian who will never be happy again because she's been tormented more than any Scooby in the history of the show.
Angel would like to argue against that point...
After all, no other core Scooby kid has permanently lost their significant other to death.
Oh, Hi Jessy. Hi Cordy. Hi Fred.
Tara and Willow are unique in their torment.
Oh, Hi Wesley.
What about all those white male vamps and villains who have died? Again, we are discussing core Scoobies here, but, for the sake of argument, Straight White Male (SWMs) characters aren't minorities. You kill a white male character, there are thousands waiting to take his place on BtVS and every other show on television. According to the Children Now "2001 Prime Time Diversity Report," gay and lesbian characters make up less than 2 percent of all characters on television. Of that 2 percent, 92 percent are gay men, meaning that only 0.16 percent of all TV characters are lesbians.
Again, demanding special treatment for minorties instead of Equal Treatment is just as bigoted as a Clansman.
Actually, that's now 0.16 percent minus Tara.
Hi Kennedy, didn't see you there.
There are so many SWM's (and SWF's) on television that a variety of stories are being told about them. Some characters are good, some are bad, some poor, some rich, happy, depressed, single, married, dead, alive. You name a situation and there is a straight white character available to represent it. That's simply not true of gay characters. There are so few in film and TV and the bad stereotypes are still so ingrained, that positive characters such as Willow and Tara are simply precious. To lose W/T, who are the ONLY long-term lesbian couple on network television is simply devastating. To lose them to the "Dead/Evil Lesbian Cliché" is nauseating and demoralizing.
More special treatment rambling.
10) Everyone on BtVS has a miserable life. Aren't Tara and Willow just getting equal treatment?

A lot of people, including Steven DeKnight during his 5/8/02 Succubus Club interview, claim that Xander or Anya or anyone else on the show could have been killed off, so all is fair. Well, anyone could have been killed but they weren't.
Jessy, Doyle, Cordelia, Anya, Fred....All would disagree...
There are five straight major characters and two gay ones on BtVS. Only the gay ones are dead and evil.
because "Evil" is permenant. How can one have a black and white view of evil and still be a fan of Buffy and Angel?

Oh, wait...
This "would've, could've" argument is similar to the one parodied in Question #1. It is a glib answer that, by its design, actually answers nothing while attempting to deflect responsibility. The killing of a TV character is not a random act of God,
Even though, for all intensive purposes, the creator of a Series IS God.
it is the result of a choice by the writing staff.
Even though Joss acts as a dictator and the writing staff is mearly his board of advisors...
ME is arguing that every character had an equal chance of being killed off, but that is not true.
Do I have to repeat the death list again? or quote Season 1 DVD comentary where they wanted to put Jesse in the credits, but didn't have the cash to do it?
The fact is that, because Amber Benson was the only Scooby significant other not to be given regular status in the credits, the cards were unfairly stacked against her from the beginning.
Again, being Gay is just a sidenote.
It appears that Tara never stood a chance, despite ME's protests to the contrary.
Read "The Evil Liars that they are" afterwards
Her second-class contract status seems to indicate that she was always a marked woman. After all, why pay an actor for a full 22-episodes when you're going to kill them off? Was this because Amber's character was gay? Of course not. However, appearances are everything.
And my interpretation of the events is the ONLY one, because I am a minority and speak for all of them!!11!
And the fact remains that the actor who portrayed the gay significant other was, for whatever reason, treated differently than the actors that played the straight ones,
WTF, when did THAT happen?
therefore nearly guaranteeing that the gay character's future on the show was more limited than that of the straight characters.

It is worth noting that Seth Green, who played Willow's former boyfriend Oz, was a series regular. Could he have been killed off? Sure. And since he was a full member of the cast, his death would not have appeared pre-destined. As it stands, Seth wanted off the show and Oz was written out, not killed off.
Why? Because the story they had already planned for him allowed it to happen. Plus they wanted him back.
Amber Benson was brought in as Willow's girlfriend, was never made a regular, has said she did not want off the show, but was killed off. Equal treatment? Not so much.
When one is a Regular and one is a Guest, how can you claim an accurate equal comparison?
Appearances. Are. Everything.
And your interpretations of events are irrelevents and scewed.
As for equal treatment in the area of misery, let's compare BtVS's two longest-running couples, Xander and Anya and Willow and Tara.
Because Xander and Anya are the perfect example of a typical BtVS/Angel Couple! :roll:
What has happened to Xander and Anya over the last two years? They hooked up in a direct, no angst fashion; they enjoyed a very literal, non-metaphorical sex life; they did research; they got engaged; they saved the world; they planned their wedding; then Xander left Anya at the altar. Not that much angst for X/A until their ill-fated wedding. In fact, nothing happened to them at all.
1) And Anya got killed in the finale when it seamed that they would get back together.

2) Nothing happened? NOTHING HAPPENED? What show were you watching? Do I need to sing "I'll Never Tell" for you?
How about Willow and Tara? Their initial get-together was an angsty triangle involving Oz; their affections were mostly metaphorical and hidden; there was the big "Is Tara a demon?" scare; followed by Tara's four-episode brain-suck; they saved the world; next Willow became a magic addict; then Tara left and they were separated for most of the season; finally Tara came back and she and Willow engage in their very first implied (though not overt like the straight couples) on screen sex and Tara immediately gets her heart splattered all over Willow's shirt.

Conclusion: Not only did W/T suffer more as a couple, Tara did not survive. Anya did. Xander and Anya could still get back together. Willow and Tara's chances died with Tara.
Try the same for ANY OTHER couple in the series. I dare you.
As for Buffy, who would have thought that in Sunnydale, you can sleep with not one vampire, but two, and STILL not be in as much danger as sleeping with another woman?
She says about the woman who died twice, suffered from post traumatic stress syndrome for over 6 months, dug out of her own grave, was ripped out of heaven, had to send her lover to Hell to save the world....
Even in a horror universe filled with monsters, the surest way for a Scooby to get killed or go evil is to be gay (results so far point to a 100% chance of it).
Hi Kennedy, didn't see you there.
Some things just never, ever change.
Like Stupidity
All the straight characters on the show are alive to seek happiness in Season 7.
And history shows they have little to no chance of finding it.
The gay characters are either dead or utterly bereft with no chance for happiness.
Which is insanely funny because Willow And Kennedy are not only happy at the end of Season 7, but continue to be so.
No chance for happiness. The cliché strikes again.
Sorry, no it doesn't.
11) Other minority groups have suffered on this show. All of the, say, Gypsy characters have died. Why isn't anyone claiming the show is unfair to Gypsies?

Well, actually, given that not only are all the Gypsy characters dead (Jenny, Enosh[Authors note: Completely ignoring the rest of the clan masacred by Spike and Dru]), but practically all the black characters have been killed (Kendra, Forrest, Mr. Trick, the slayer from the seventies)
Oh, hi Robin. How are you today?
as have the vanishingly few Asian characters (like the Chinese slayer), and Native American characters (like Hus)
Hus was a vengance spirit, he wasn't even human. Sorry, no example for you.
not to mention that Hispanic characters have been practically nonexistent (has there been anyone but Tito?)
Dawn's friend Carlos seemed ok.
- in a show set in Southern California! - in fact it's pretty reasonable to question the show's treatment of minorities in general. In fact, after all the bodies are cleared away, the only significant minority characters we seem to be left with are one Jewish lesbian who has turned evil
She got better, ass.
and one black character on a different show on another network.
What about Gunn's Friends (the ones who survived)? Many minorities there.

Secondly, Have you ever been to a So-cal suburban community? there aren't that many minorities to begin with.
Of course, as has been mentioned previously, there have been deaths of non-minority characters on the show as well, but a glance at the cast list is enough to demonstrate that the percentage rate of this hasn't been anywhere close to as high, and the number left after the deaths is, well, plentiful rather than zero.
I love how they don't provide the numbers themselves.

Secondly refer to the population statement above.
While it is doubtful, once again, that Mutant Enemy is being deliberately racist, it isn't a stretch to say that they've been thoughtlessly perpetuating the general dead/nonexistent minority cliché in the same way that they've been perpetuating the dead/evil lesbian cliché. Pointing out that the show has killed off its Gypsies, etc. as well doesn't undercut our point . . . it just adds another dimension to it.
Oh wow, cultural problems! Let's blame ME spoecifically for what the entirety of a society is doing!
12) What are the societal effects of the dead/evil lesbian cliché?

<snip unimportant ramblins>

13) Willow and Tara finally got some on screen intimacy, aren't you at least happy about that?

Absolutely! We applaud Mutant Enemy for pushing this issue with first The WB and then UPN. Willow and Tara's relationship was beautifully written and portrayed. It was historic in its longevity, sensitivity and sensuality. However, the mere fact that ME needed to fight for intimate scenes between W/T in the 21st Century should tell people that gay characters are desperately needed on TV and killing them off not only sends a horrible message, it wastes a golden opportunity to continue to make a difference.
Because you've proven that no Straight characters ever get killed off...oh, wait...
Despite all of ME's pushing, Willow and Tara were only blatantly intimate in their last episode together.
As a buildup for what was to come and make it that much worse.
Even then, no actual sex scene was shown. The one and only truly sexual moment--Willow ducking her head under the sheet and Tara moaning--was cut from "Seeing Red" by UPN. (Although the network had no problem showing Willow skinning Warren.)
Because we live in a society that fears sex more than violence. Deal.
Compare that to Buffy/Riley and Buffy/Spike where there were numerous graphic sex scenes in and out of bed that included full pelvic thrusts, groans, etc.
Again, because of cultureal biases of the network.
And sadly, as mentioned earlier, Willow and Tara's intimacy led directly into Tara's murder, which is an unfortunate component of the "Dead/Evil Lesbian Cliché."
And Buffy and Spike's intamacy lead to his attempted rape of her. Again wanting the double standard.
It would have been much preferable to completely separate Tara's death from any sexual acts.
And soften the blow for your weak-willed soul? Whimp.
Equality? Ummmm. No.
Yep, you want special treatment.
14) Doesn't the attitude that lesbians shouldn't die make them unfairly sacrosanct and not subject to the problems that other characters face?
Sacrosanct: Sac"ro*sanct\, a. [L. sucrosanctus.] Sacred; inviolable.
There are actually a fair number of reasons that this is a specious argument. For one thing, what's wrong with keeping them sacrosanct, anyway?
Because it creates an unfair biase. Any Unfair biase for ANYONE is bad. You complain about the white majority having one and then wanting to remove it and give it to YOUR minority. That's not Equality numb-nuts.
We've had enough dead lesbians in the past, is it too much to ask that a show which prides itself on being ground-breaking and cliché-subverting actually keep the lesbian couple alive for once?
Hi Kennedy, didn't see you there!
In addition, the lives of several characters are clearly already considered untouchable; none of the core Scoobies is going to die permanently.
Hi Anya! Hi Fred! Hi Cordy, Hi Wesley! Hi Doyle!
Adding another to this list therefore wouldn't particularly mess with the show's established mode of operation. Heck, "don't kill Dawn" was practically the Season 5 motto.
Because she was intergral to the plot and of Buffy's emotional Journey. There's that Plot Device and Full Charaacter thing again. Sorry, Tara didn't perform that function.
Also, a character being kept alive and not evil is a very different thing from saying a character is immune to trouble,
Because none of the other characters has EVER been Evil before--Oh, wait...
as the entire show has adequately demonstrated. Simply keeping a character alive is hardly making them permanently smiley and happy.
Even though you claim it does several times previously? Concession Accepted.
But finally - most people arguing against the lesbian cliché are not even really arguing that Tara can't die!
Could have fooled me
The argument is simply that she shouldn't die in a clichéd manner.
Even though it was established in the characters to react that way? Moron.
If Tara had gotten to die at the end of a story arc that made her death meaningful, important, and true to her character, there would be a lot of sad fans, but most of them would not be enraged the way we are now.
See, Tara's death WAS meant to be "meaningless", that was the point of not only it, but of ALL OF SEASON 6!
But ME chose to have Tara shot randomly immediately after sex in a way that drives her lover insane and makes her evil.
"permenantely, irridemably"
15) Are W/T fans mad at Steven DeKnight for writing "Seeing Red?"

Absolutely not! It was a beautifully written episode that displayed some of the sweetest, sexiest Willow and Tara moments ever. It was not his decision to kill off Tara. It was Joss Whedon's. What upset some W/T fans is that Mr. DeKnight (and other ME writers) claimed that Tara would not die this season.
"The Dirty Liars!"
After Tara was killed - in Mr. DeKnight's very own episode - fans wanted to know why he lied to them. In his Succubus Club interview, he claimed that he had to lie to protect spoilers and that fans shouldn't have believed him. Mr. DeKnight did not have to lie. No one at ME had to lie. A simple "no comment" would have sufficed.
Considering Joss' stance on Spoilers, No, He had to lie. He was making a point about Spoilers. Joss Hates them, so he decided to Andy Kaufman our asses.
Interestingly, even though Amber Benson was aware throughout Season Six that Tara was going to be killed, she never lied about it and she never let the spoiler slip. This despite the fact that both the media and fans constantly asked her about her character's future. She was polite, respectful and appropriately vague.
But she's not a writer, now is she?
Lying isn't a necessity, it's a choice.
And it proved a point, didn't it?
Tara attracted many fans who are marginalized in society because they are shy or gay or stuttered or all three. More than any other character on the show, her fans were a sensitive, gentle group, many of whom found solace in Tara and W/T that they couldn't find anywhere else. For ME, through lies, to bolster false hope about the fate of a character that meant so much to people just so they could splatter her blood onto Willow's shirt, was especially cruel. This was not the death of any character. It was the death of a character that represented hope to thousands of people. Great care was required. Great insensitivity was shown.
And that, my dear writer, was THE FUCKIN' POINT.
16) Why did some Tara fans object to Amber Benson being in the credits of "Seeing Red"? Wasn't that a nice gesture?

Normally, it would have been wonderful to see Amber Benson in the opening credits. Her fans have been begging for her to be a regular for the last two seasons. She is the ONLY significant other of a Scooby to not have been made a regular. Her omission had become glaring. Unfortunately, Amber was included in the credits in the very episode Tara was murdered. Mr. DeKnight admitted that this was intended both as a goodbye present to Amber and to be "mischievous" to the fans. But why wasn't she included all season long like all the other Scooby significant others such as Anya, Riley and Oz? Too little, too late.
Sorry, but Tara wasn't in all Season 6 Episodes. "Gone", "Doublemeat Palace" and "As You Were" were Tara Free. Stop Demanding Special Treatment!
Furthermore, seeing how fans were already going to be shocked and hurt by the ending of "Seeing Red," ME did not need to heighten the pain by "mischievously" adding Amber to the credits,
yes they did. You miss the point entirely because you fell for their ploys. Congratulations, I'll tell all practicing Jedi how easy it is to perswade you.
building false hope to make their plan of devastation more complete. It was a mean and crass move.
And you effected by it. They succeeded in their goal. They Won. You Lost.
17) Mutant Enemy writers have said that Amber Benson may come back, but not necessarily as Tara. What if she does? Aren't you going to look silly for causing such a stir?

After indicating they were above falling into lesbian clichés and then leaping gleefully, head-first into not one, but two of them, Mutant Enemy should not be surprised by the reaction of the gay community. We would, of course, love to have Tara back (note: that's TARA, not just Amber Benson, as this is about the character, not the actress, lovely as she may be).
And they claimed it wasn't about Tara's Death...Concession Accepted.
However, nothing is going to change the fact that ME chose to perpetuate extremely hurtful clichés that have far-reaching social consequences, lied about not killing Tara this season, and, according to Mr. DeKnight, purposely tried to make the loss hurt more by putting Amber Benson in the credits for the episode of Tara's death.
Buffy is all about Hurt. When did you forget that? Season 4?
Nothing will change the fact that seeing Willow covered in Tara's blood made an infamously vocal group of people that hated Tara because she was gay and viciously maligned both the character and Amber Benson the moment she appeared on screen in Season Four, very, very happy.
Who the fuck are those people, no evidence I see? Congrats, you lying fucktard.
ME fed W/T fans to the wolves - wolves they claimed to disdain - for what amounted to a weak three-episode Vengeance Willow arc. That's really sad and pretty hard to forget.
Well, you're technically doing the same thing by writing this article completely out of revenge for what ME did, so really...
Real damage has been caused, no matter what the future holds.
Oh Bother, Again with the contradictions.
18) In conclusion, what does Tara's death ultimately mean?

It means that the gay community has been hurt and misled... again.
Welcome to life.
It means that perpetuating a tired, horribly clichéd storyline was ultimately more important to ME than keeping their word.
It means that people will see racism/hatred wherever they can. I can recall a similar uproar about light-harted jokes about homosexuality in "Jay and Silent Bob Strike Back" Recieving similar vehemence.

And Also: Spoilers Lie.
That hurting Willow above all the other Scoobies was more important than being socially responsible.
Fucking PC Fucktard. The STORY is what matters most.
That killing Tara anywhere but in the bedroom thus downplaying the lesbian cliché, required too much effort and apparently would have meant giving up too many ratings points.
:roll:
That giving all the homophobes, Tara-haters and Amber-bashers (a segment ME supposedly holds in great disdain) exactly what they've wanted since Tara first appeared was preferable to thinking a little harder and coming up with another story solution.
And it was certainly portrayed tha Tara's Death was a GOOD thing...Oh, wait...
It means that, just like all those old (and new) movies that ended without hope for gay characters

Buffy and Angel relationships end with just about as MUCH hope, dumbass.
so ends this season of BtVS. Mutant Enemy can say that it could have happened to anyone in Sunnydale all it wants. Sure, it could have. But it didn't. It happened to the lesbians...as freakin' usual.
It just happened to Wesley. Sorry, your theory no longer holds water.
Long live the cliché.
Long Live Stupid PC Fucktards who demand special treatment over equality.
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Post by Majin Gojira » 2004-06-09 12:39pm

Fuck, replace Warren with Andrew in the sentance "Both Willow and Andrew are both Still Evil...oh, wait"
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Re: Buffy Season 6, The Dead Lesbian Cliche Stupidity(spoile

Post by RedImperator » 2004-06-09 01:14pm

Anarchist Bunny wrote:
Majin Gojira wrote: 2) This is a Joss Whedon Show--THERE ARE NO HAPPY COUPLES THAT LAST...EVER. (With the possible exception of the Finns (Riley and Sam))
What about Zoe and Wash.
In 14 episodes, Joss managed to find time to include one episode when their marriage looked to be in some jeopardy ("War Stories") and at least one big fight that I can remember off the top of my head ("Our Mrs. Reynolds"). And he came right out and said on the commentary that they were an odd couple and that had the series continued, their marriage would have been strained by that fact. I don't know if there would have been a divorce or a horrible death (seeing either of them go on a murder spree to avenge the other would be interesting--Zoe just because of what the final body count would look like, Wash because seeing a mild-mannered, laid back character like him turned into a killer is always fascinating when handled properly), but it would not have been a happy sitcom marriage where no matter what goes wrong, everything is back to normal by the end of the last act.
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Post by Skelron » 2004-06-09 02:34pm

Not a Major point but, when they had a go at the fact that it was Xander who was there for Willow I got anoyed.

Xander was there for Willow not as an attack on Lesbiens, not because he was Male, but because Xander has known Willow longer than any other Character, she is his best Friend, Family almost. Who else is going to get through to her as hyped up on tyhe Dark Magic as she was, who else has the heart to allow Willow to hurt him, and stand up again and simply say 'I love you'?

Why the one established as the 'Heart' of the group, It HAD to be Xander, Xander was the only one from any of the Core characters who could do it. Giles was the Father figure, he'd have nagged Willow, Buffy's Slayer Instincts likely would have had her fighting Willow, what willow needed was someone to pore out her anger at. Someone who would stand there and let her show how Angry she was at the universe and not judge her for it, just Love her. It's a part of grief we get angry, unfortunatly Willow simply had the power to take out that anger, and then went to a much darker place as she gather that power.

Anyway thats all I wanted to add to the above excellent criticism of the article.
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Post by Bob the Gunslinger » 2004-06-09 02:48pm

Way to pwn, Majin Gojira. I just hope they see your rebuttal.
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Post by Majin Gojira » 2004-06-09 03:21pm

Xander is one of the most interesting characters on the show, mainly because he fills the role usually filled by women in earlier series--Emotional Support.

I can actually make sure that the purpotraters become at least mildly aware of this...But I'll let it float around first before I do anything like that...
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Post by Anarchist Bunny » 2004-06-09 03:22pm

Tara and Willow are unique in their torment.
Oh, Hi Wesley.
That made me laugh, because Wesley just kept getting the shit end of the stick. I think killing him was the nicest thing they ever did for him.
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Re: Buffy Season 6, The Dead Lesbian Cliche Stupidity(spoile

Post by Ted C » 2004-06-09 03:35pm

RedImperator wrote:In 14 episodes, Joss managed to find time to include one episode when their marriage looked to be in some jeopardy ("War Stories") and at least one big fight that I can remember off the top of my head ("Our Mrs. Reynolds").
The episode "Heart of Gold" also indicated a potential point of conflict in their marriage; Zoe is eager to have children while Wash isn't.
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Post by Majin Gojira » 2004-06-09 03:52pm

Damnit, I should have added this:

"Can you honestly tell me that you would not have done the same thing (or nearly the same thing) if you were in Willow's place?"

God knows I would have.
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Post by speaker-to-trolls » 2004-06-09 03:52pm

Wow.
What about all those white male vamps and villains who have died? Again, we are discussing core Scoobies here, but, for the sake of argument, Straight White Male (SWMs) characters aren't minorities. You kill a white male character, there are thousands waiting to take his place on BtVS and every other show on television.
.

Yeah, you're really big on equality, aren't you :roll: .

Majin, I hope you send this rebuttal to whoever these people are, they badly need some sense knocked into them.
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Post by Jalinth » 2004-06-09 06:28pm

speaker-to-trolls wrote:Wow.
What about all those white male vamps and villains who have died? Again, we are discussing core Scoobies here, but, for the sake of argument, Straight White Male (SWMs) characters aren't minorities. You kill a white male character, there are thousands waiting to take his place on BtVS and every other show on television.
.

Yeah, you're really big on equality, aren't you :roll: .

Majin, I hope you send this rebuttal to whoever these people are, they badly need some sense knocked into them.

I did like the idea that any white guy can take over for any other one (pretty classic view - the old "all members of X look the same to me" - just with whites instead of blacks, japanese, etc...). Giles and Xander aren't interchangeable. As to all the vamps being white men - they are vampires in a SoCal suburb after all. :lol: - they need to blend into the crowd to get some blood (unless meals on wheels is nearby).


Personally, they needed someway to really send Willow out into orbit to make the transition from someone gradually drifting towards bad (but basically good) to the magical equivalent of the Punisher believable (at least sort of). Killing your loved one in cold blood in front of her is probably the most believable. I agree with others that the Buffyverse isn't really made for solid relationships. Xander/Anya, Willow/Oz, Buffy/anyone (I'd hate to be her lover - its the equivalent of breaking a few million mirrors while walking under ladder on Friday the 13th - you are doomed), no one is happy for that long. Willow and Tara were pretty much the same.

Also, given that Willow was redeemed and about as happy as the Buffyverse gets at the end with Slayer jr., shows that lesbianism isn't all evil.

This person needs to realize that TV is TV - ratings are vital to ensure that some station will carry it. Poor ratings=dead show (critically aclaimed shows must at least have tolerable ratings and costs to be worth it from the network standpoint). Without real drama and story arcs, the show would have died in its infancy. Willow was to turn evil to further the plot and the writers (under the JW) determined that Tara was the most believable way. Tough luck, the plot rules in good shows - characters die (this is the Buffyverse after all - the star died for godsake).

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