Apocalypse versus Doctor Doom -- Stone Cold

[Ghost Rider]

You're confusing Real Time and Marvel Time.

Literally in their time, when Apocaplypse came into power...it would've been approximately the late 50's...with said teams not being formed easily into the 80-90-00(depending on Marvel whims)

Thus when Apoc came to be...they weren't there.

It had to be sometime after the early 80s. For one thing, Apocalypses opening move was to hijack the American ICBM missile command and trigger a full on nuclear war. ICBMs weren't fielded until the early sixties and there weren't enough to them to account for the huge amount of devestation that the Age of Apocalypse relies on.

Secondly, all our X-characters for the most part had counterparts in the Age of Apocalypse. Take the Gen-Xers, for instance. They are all teenagers in the modern day. If Apocalypse nuked the living shit out of everything in the fifties, what are the chances their parents would meet under the same circumstances and concieve them? Shadowcat, who lead the Gen-X kids in the AoA, was stated to be 13 when she was attempted to be recruited by Emma White and Xavier in the 80s. Keep in mind, she's from Chicago, which would have almost certainly have been nuked and then purged by Apocalypse. She shouldn't exist, unless Apocalypses move was made some time after she was born. Same goes for the rest of the Gen-Xers. In order for them to exist at all, Apocalypse would have had to made his move in the 80s, well after most of Marvels heavy hitting supergroups formed.

True...but they give no definitive time when Apoc emerged in his form.

Literally they use it as Deus Ex to go "He appeared thus canceling out major events...."

Also another small potholeis how Marvel rates it's year by literally only accepting that it's only 7-8 years old. Something that's shown given how many ret-cons they have done. So literally they wrote out any 60/70/80/90/00 events that would tag Apoc first true arrival after Xavier's death except that apprently it was great enough that no other superheroes emerged...aside from mutants.

[Gil Hamilton]

True...but they give no definitive time when Apoc emerged in his form.

Literally they use it as Deus Ex to go "He appeared thus canceling out major events...."

Also another small potholeis how Marvel rates it's year by literally only accepting that it's only 7-8 years old. Something that's shown given how many ret-cons they have done. So literally they wrote out any 60/70/80/90/00 events that would tag Apoc first true arrival after Xavier's death except that apprently it was great enough that no other superheroes emerged...aside from mutants.

But we do have some things just from the setting to go by, like I mentioned, like the existance of the Gen-X kids and Shadowcat. That means that it must have happened some time after they were born, or else they most likely wouldn't exist. I mean, the Gen-Xers are younger than me, and I was born in 1982. We also know it couldn't have been during the 50s or 60s, since there wouldn't exist nearly enough ICBMs to account for what Apocalypse did. The only way we can make sense of the setting is that it happened some time in the 80s, but that means that Apocalypse's coming wouldn't effect the formation of the other super teams.

Likewise, Xavier's death wouldn't prevent their forming too. In fact, you'd think that Xavier's death would have meant that alot of the mutants we see running around wouldn't be. After all Xavier was personally responsible for many of their origins. Storm for instance, would have never left Africa if it weren't for him, nor would Nightcrawler have left Munich. Meanwhile, Xavier had absolutely nothing to do with the origin of the Fantastic Four, yet in the AoA when they made their appearance in stopping Mikhail's ship, they were completely non-powered, even though by all rights they should have been the Fantastic Four, since they didn't even know Xavier until after the shuttle accident. Reed Richard and Charles met after Richards made the Four Freedoms tower and Xavier had his school, though pretty early on (which is where the old new X-men got their costumes). Tony Stark would have still got the shrapenal in him from Vietnam and became Iron Man. Captain America would have still have been given the superserum and then frozen after defeating the Nazis. Et cetera.

[Ghost Rider]

True...but they give no definitive time when Apoc emerged in his form.

Literally they use it as Deus Ex to go "He appeared thus canceling out major events...."

Also another small potholeis how Marvel rates it's year by literally only accepting that it's only 7-8 years old. Something that's shown given how many ret-cons they have done. So literally they wrote out any 60/70/80/90/00 events that would tag Apoc first true arrival after Xavier's death except that apprently it was great enough that no other superheroes emerged...aside from mutants.

But we do have some things just from the setting to go by, like I mentioned, like the existance of the Gen-X kids and Shadowcat. That means that it must have happened some time after they were born, or else they most likely wouldn't exist. I mean, the Gen-Xers are younger than me, and I was born in 1982. We also know it couldn't have been during the 50s or 60s, since there wouldn't exist nearly enough ICBMs to account for what Apocalypse did. The only way we can make sense of the setting is that it happened some time in the 80s, but that means that Apocalypse's coming wouldn't effect the formation of the other super teams.

Likewise, Xavier's death wouldn't prevent their forming too. In fact, you'd think that Xavier's death would have meant that alot of the mutants we see running around wouldn't be. After all Xavier was personally responsible for many of their origins. Storm for instance, would have never left Africa if it weren't for him, nor would Nightcrawler have left Munich. Meanwhile, Xavier had absolutely nothing to do with the origin of the Fantastic Four, yet in the AoA when they made their appearance in stopping Mikhail's ship, they were completely non-powered, even though by all rights they should have been the Fantastic Four, since they didn't even know Xavier until after the shuttle accident. Reed Richard and Charles met after Richards made the Four Freedoms tower and Xavier had his school, though pretty early on (which is where the old new X-men got their costumes). Tony Stark would have still got the shrapenal in him from Vietnam and became Iron Man. Captain America would have still have been given the superserum and then frozen after defeating the Nazis. Et cetera.

The trump card is we have no idea what he did. Literally...After Xavier's death whenever he met Gabrielle, which is even before Magnus faced off Baron Von Strucker. The MU is that it radically altered. No one truly knows the specifics except that Apoc was able to alter whatever variable needed in some way to allow no one but some random few to exist. He conquers North America and the humans holed themselves inside Europe. Notice no except in one book is mentioned of any other heros...no resistence, no notation of anything except what pertains to the X-Verse. Literally it's as if MU didn't exist except the mutant sub culture for the Age of Apoc.

They never gave any backstory aside what was involved and every mention of an alternate hero along the lines of Spiderman just never came to being.

The obvious thought is literally something happened to the landscape of the world's geopolitics that was able to alter what happened. Perhaps with Stark was killed. Reed never got funding, Parker just died, Cap's still floating in the Atlantic.

[Gil Hamilton]

Tony Stark was around, he was on the crew that went to attack Mikhail's ship, along with a few other characters like Ben Grimm, Suzie Storm, Bruce Banner, Matthew Murdock, Donald Blake, Gwen Stacy and one Victor von Doom. None of which are superpowered, even though most of their origins would have happened before Apocalypse took over, given the context I mentioned about.

It still doesn't make sense. And there is still the problem with how Apocalypse managed to stop the Silver Surfer and Galactus from making the Earth into a late afternoon snack, given that this time around, it's highly unlikely that the Silver Surfer is going to feel bad for the plight of the Earth and double cross Big Purple or the Watcher is going to break his oath to help Apocalypse get the Ultimate Nullifier. However, I can see Apocalypse and his Horsemen trying to stop Galactus and getting whipped by Silver Surfer, and when Old Blue Lips gives spiel about the survival of the fittest, Surfer would go "...then you are unfit to survive..." and kill him.

[Gil Hamilton]

(Keep in mind that I concede that most of the heroes probably didn't exist to fight Apocalypse, since as mentioned about I did some research and found that the heroes were around, just unpowered. Right now, I'm trying to figure out how the hell it happened, since Xavier's death doesn't really connect to their origins. Plus, there is the Galactus problem.)

[Ghost Rider]

The Galactus problem never made a whit of sense...and when they did a What if...it made less sense.

All in all an in universe answer is somehow events conspired against most the Marvel heroes.

The out of universe answer is Scott Lobdell is a moron.

[Tsyroc]

Yes... because the crystallization wave that failed to destroy the inhabitants of Earth would surely kill a God-like being that had already managed to survive the destruction of the universe directly previous to ours, right?

I was thinking more along the lines that it might have impacted where and when he fed and so that sent him and the Surfer in another direction so they didn't come across Earth.

[Gil Hamilton]

The Galactus problem never made a whit of sense...and when they did a What if...it made less sense.

I think I remember that. Isn't that where Galactus was given an anurysm because the people of Earth overloaded him when he tried to feed?

I've never cared for the What-If books. I tend to like the funny ones, like when Galactus gets turned into Elvis by Thanos with the Infinity Gauntlet (which is how Elvis became fat... the hunger gnawed), but many seem to be crummy.

All in all an in universe answer is somehow events conspired against most the Marvel heroes.

The out of universe answer is Scott Lobdell is a moron.

Scott Lobdell's moronitude is not in question. After all, he was responsible for Generation X (hey... why don't we make a new rookie program for X-mutants at school, even though that was already the basic premise of X-Force!)

[Tsyroc]

One thing I thought really sucked was that they appeared to just let Donald Blake die.

Would Odin let Thor die just to let him finish the lesson he was to learn about humanity? Granted Blake went in a way that would have probably got him into Valhalla but Thor in Valhalla isn't the same as a living Thor.



More stuff that was blown off:

Nova Prime came to Earth at some point and transfered his power into somebody on the planet's surface. It didn't need to be Richard Ryder (alternate versions had it being his brother) but someone should have had the powers of Nova, unless there is some reason the ship didn't come. I suppose that events for the Xandarians could have been different because of the power of the Shiar in this timeline.

The Sphinx -- Granted he didn't really seem to give a shit about anything other than destroying the Earth but he's roughly a contemporary of Apocolypse so I would have thought he would show some interest. If he was interested at all he could have been a real pain to Apocolypse.

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Didn't it suck that Juggernaut ended up wasting himself because he'd supposedly become totally non-violent because of his step-brother?

[Ghost Rider]

Those are blown off and honestly even many mutatnt things aren't erally explained.

For some reason Hydra, and the multitude of Terrorist organizations never existed, nor joined in forces to stop Apoc(literally in comparison he's not even close to the biggest stick). Literally the time of Xavier's death was before Strucker forming Hydra...thus Magneto would not have hunted Strucker down...and Hyrda would've began many years before Eric's intereference.

Honestly the biggest problem is they never explain how ONLY mutants are the reigning beings and only X-Villains survive in any capacity.

And Tysroc...I agree Juggernaut was wasted in the shittest way possible given his hatred is partially hatred for the borther but they way they wrapped that up as thge only explaination is akin to saying if we take away Aunt May...Parker would stop being Spidey.

[Tsyroc]

I had forgotten about Hydra. They should have definately come into contact with Apocolypse's forces in one way or another.

[NeoGoomba]

Wasnt it mentioned that Apocalypse's forced did manage to destroy Namor and his nation?