Apocalypse versus Doctor Doom -- Stone Cold

[Gil Hamilton]

This is a verses I thought up while Teen Titans (yes, there is a definite train of thought).

What would happen if Doctor Doom and Apocalypse ended up in a battle? Due to an elaborate and convoluted series of plot manuevering, Doom and Apocalypse end up facing off against each other in rural mountainous terrain. Doom figures (using the same logic he did with Onslaught) that Apocalypse is trying to destroy the world he's trying to conquer, and decides to ruin his shit. Due to the complexity of the plot, neither was preparing for this battle, but they have a general inkling of what the other can do.

Who wins?

[Lancer]

Doom's armor let him survive a fight with Thanos wielding the Infinity Guantlet. He can easily take Apocalypse.

[Majin Gojira]

I'm gonna sing the Doom Song now...

[Gil Hamilton]

Doom's armor let him survive a fight with Thanos wielding the Infinity Guantlet. He can easily take Apocalypse.

Then again, he's also been trounced by much less than Thanos. Doom has had some real stinkers in battle, along with some impressive feats.

[Gil Hamilton]

Then again, he's also been trounced by much less than Thanos. Doom has had some real stinkers in battle, along with some impressive feats.

EDIT: Due to a brain fart, I forgot to mention an example. I seem to remember him getting eventually thumped by Daredevil. That's a stinker if I've seen one.

[18-Till-I-Die]

Doom is perhaps the most powerful villain short of Thanos in the Marvel-U (IMHO) and has been defeated by some powerful foes, and Apoc is just some shmo who tried, numerous times, to kill a handfull of mutants and failed. Taking on Thanos is a huge step above loosing against the X-men. Plus, Doom, IIRC, had once devised some means of nullifying a mutant's power. Meaning he may be able to take Apocalypse's power away.

Until someone can show me where Apoc has done anything even remotly on Doom's level of evil, i'm going with Dr. Doom for thsi one.

[constantine]

Doom survived a dissection by the Beyonder on sheer force of will alone.

[Ted C]

Call me a member of the Cult of Doom, but I'm going to go with the Doctor on this.

Not only is he protected by a powerful force field and armed with high-energy weapons, Doom is probably the second smartest person in the entire Marvel universe. Doom has stolen power from the likes of Galactus. Granted, he has the Thanos-like trait of snatching defeat from the jaws of victory when confronted by heroes, but I don't think that applies when dealing with other villains. If he knows anything about Apocalypse, he will either fight his enemy effectively or retreat until better prepared. Doom is definitely a villain who prefers plotting, scheming, planning and preparation to half-assed fisticuffs.

[Gil Hamilton]

Doom tends to end up in fisticuffs quite alot. Besides, there is a reason I had Apocalypse and Doom bump into each other with both unprepared, because Doctor Doom on the hunt is a whole different proposition than Doctor Doom getting in a fight off-the-cuff. I don't know, I think Apocalypse is alot tougher than he's given credit for. He has that same tendency to fail when he's about to win, but then again, he also managed to take over the world in the mediocre plotline that is the Age of Apocalypse. That means that he must have been able to beat the likes of the Avengers, the Fantastic Four, hell, even Doctor Doom in order to win final victory there (after all, Magneto and his X-Men wouldn't be the only heroes on Earth).

I don't know... I think it would be at least a decent fight. I think Doom would pull it out too, but it's a fight I'd like to see.

[frigidmagi]

Until someone can show me where Apoc has done anything even remotly on Doom's level of evil, i'm going with Dr. Doom for thsi one.

Well he did survivie for over 3000 years or so and take over the Earth in 2 seperate timelines.

However... I gotta go with the masked man in the cape. For there be only victory for... DOOM!

[NeoGoomba]

Apocalypse has never really done all that much, given the fact that he's touted as one of the most powerful mutants on Earth. I'll try to give some things he's done. If I'm wrong, tell me

-He ransacked Manhattan during "Fall of the Mutants"
-KO'ed Loki
-Defeated the Inhumans, FF, and some X-Men at the same time and took over the Inhumans moon base
-Dropped the X-Men Gold Team in under a minute
-Physically manhandled a pissed off Banner Hulk
-Survived Kang the Conqeror's anti-Apocalypse molecular cannon
-Survived being ripped practically in two by a stalagtite (before all his fancy power upgrades)
-Possessed Celestial technology

Negatives:
-Killed by the Dark Riders. Granted, his body was shredded before he fought them, but still, they killed his body.
-Couldn't kill CABLE
-Never did anything on the scale of Magneto or Dr. Doom other than Age of Apocalypse


Now keep in mind, Doom was around a whole lot longer than Apocalypse, and is still actually alive (Apocalypse won't be coming back anytime soon except in the Ultimate universe). But all that aside, I'd like to say Apocalypse would win straight up, but I believe Doom to be the superior mind and would win through a mix of cunning, his nigh-Iron Man suit, and his arcane power

[Meest]

Wasn't Apocalypse killed after being awoken early for his sarcophagus and not at full strength? Though I still think Apocalypse is a half step down from Doom, Doom has shown to be able to hurt Silver Surfer, only thing that comes close for A is manhandling the Hulk. Almost a tie but Doom has that range advantage, don't recall Apocalypse ever showing range other than stretching his body.

[constantine]

Wasn't Apocalypse killed after being awoken early for his sarcophagus and not at full strength? Though I still think Apocalypse is a half step down from Doom, Doom has shown to be able to hurt Silver Surfer, only thing that comes close for A is manhandling the Hulk. Almost a tie but Doom has that range advantage, don't recall Apocalypse ever showing range other than stretching his body.

Actually, a Doombot was also able to beat on Silver Surfer.

[constantine]

Here's a cool Doom quote:
(Dooms being tortured in hell by demons of Mephisto)

Demon: Victor Von Doom, ever the stoic. Cry for us, Victor. Whimper for our master, Mephisto.

Doom: Cor-correction...temporary...master.

Later Reed even agrees with this:

Reed: Hell would have been no more unconquerable. You and I know that, in six months, you'd be running the place.

Also, it should be noted that Dooms got a killer trump card as he's able to project his consciousness into the mind of his enemy, completely taking over their mind and body.

[Tsyroc]

Doom tends to end up in fisticuffs quite alot. Besides, there is a reason I had Apocalypse and Doom bump into each other with both unprepared, because Doctor Doom on the hunt is a whole different proposition than Doctor Doom getting in a fight off-the-cuff. I don't know, I think Apocalypse is alot tougher than he's given credit for. He has that same tendency to fail when he's about to win, but then again, he also managed to take over the world in the mediocre plotline that is the Age of Apocalypse. That means that he must have been able to beat the likes of the Avengers, the Fantastic Four, hell, even Doctor Doom in order to win final victory there (after all, Magneto and his X-Men wouldn't be the only heroes on Earth).

Actually, the Age of Apocolypse totally fubared the normal Marvel timeline so most the non-mutant super heroes never happened. The FF and the Avengers didn't exist (never got powers). A version of the Hulk was around but he was not exactly a good guy.

I do think they might have killed off the Inhumans

[Gil Hamilton]

Actually, the Age of Apocolypse totally fubared the normal Marvel timeline so most the non-mutant super heroes never happened. The FF and the Avengers didn't exist (never got powers). A version of the Hulk was around but he was not exactly a good guy.

Why wouldn't they be around? Most of the Avengers I can think of have been doing the superhero thing much longer than many of the younger X-Folk had been alive, and they were born sometime before Apocalypse nuked everything. I know the Avengers have. Most of the Avengers started out in the seventies, before the breaking point between the two timelines happened. The Fantastic Four and Doctor Doom had also been fighting before people like Gen X were a mutant twinkle in their parents eyes. That means that despite the timeline changing, you are going to get the core members of the Avengers (Captain America, Thor, Vision, Iron Man, et cetera), the Fantastic Four, Doom, Doctor Strange, the Silver Surfer (assuming that Reed Richard calls in that favor for freeing him from Galactus) and a host of others running around. I don't think they'd sit back and let Apocalypse take over, which means he must have managed to beat the lot of them.

[Ghost Rider]

Actually, the Age of Apocolypse totally fubared the normal Marvel timeline so most the non-mutant super heroes never happened. The FF and the Avengers didn't exist (never got powers). A version of the Hulk was around but he was not exactly a good guy.

Why wouldn't they be around? Most of the Avengers I can think of have been doing the superhero thing much longer than many of the younger X-Folk had been alive, and they were born sometime before Apocalypse nuked everything. I know the Avengers have. Most of the Avengers started out in the seventies, before the breaking point between the two timelines happened. The Fantastic Four and Doctor Doom had also been fighting before people like Gen X were a mutant twinkle in their parents eyes. That means that despite the timeline changing, you are going to get the core members of the Avengers (Captain America, Thor, Vision, Iron Man, et cetera), the Fantastic Four, Doom, Doctor Strange, the Silver Surfer (assuming that Reed Richard calls in that favor for freeing him from Galactus) and a host of others running around. I don't think they'd sit back and let Apocalypse take over, which means he must have managed to beat the lot of them.

Actually according to Age they just never happened.

Because Xavier's death...Apoc happened literally 20 years his normal time, thus most of the events that caused 95% of the heros to come to be just never happened.

Literally he kicked none of their butts, because there was no one to kick.

[Tsyroc]

Why wouldn't they be around? Most of the Avengers I can think of have been doing the superhero thing much longer than many of the younger X-Folk had been alive, and they were born sometime before Apocalypse nuked everything. I know the Avengers have. Most of the Avengers started out in the seventies, before the breaking point between the two timelines happened. The Fantastic Four and Doctor Doom had also been fighting before people like Gen X were a mutant twinkle in their parents eyes. That means that despite the timeline changing, you are going to get the core members of the Avengers (Captain America, Thor, Vision, Iron Man, et cetera), the Fantastic Four, Doom, Doctor Strange, the Silver Surfer (assuming that Reed Richard calls in that favor for freeing him from Galactus) and a host of others running around. I don't think they'd sit back and let Apocalypse take over, which means he must have managed to beat the lot of them.

It's been a long time since I read that stuff but wasn't Professor X killed fairly early in his friendship with Magneto? I think that was supposed to be in the 50s after he got back from the Korean War (which used to be where Cain Marko found the Crimson Ruby of Cytorak). He would have had to have died before the early 60s when the FF went into space since that never happened in the AoA timeline.

I know that Donald Blake didn't take the vacation to Norway in which he found the cane that was the disquised hammer of Thor. Tony Stark did make a chest plate to keep himself alive but he never seemed to make any armor. Cap was never found in the arctic. The Hulk became the Hulk but in a different way than the gamma bomb and Rick Jones.

There was a whole mini-series tied to the Age of Apocolypse that dealt with the rest of the Marvel Universe that wasn't covered in all the X-books. In one of the two or three times I actually wrote a letter to Marvel I complained about the mini-series because to make it work they had to forget/leave out so much. Basically, even if Professor X being killed allowed Apocolypse and Mr. Sinister to take over North America because of various power vacuums it left so many well established Marvel history elements unanswered.

I mean, in the Age of Apocolypse the fact that Phoenix wasn't around to stop the Shiar from using the M'k... whatever crystal was a problem but I guess they decided to blow off the couple of times that Galactus came to Earth before that. Without the FF and the Watcher helping the FF I would think that might be a problem.

I also think one of the hosts of Celestials came before that as well. We also never find out what happened to the boatload of Eternals and Deviants that were around. Basically someone had an interesting "What If?" idea and Marvel over did it to the point where they had to blow off too much of their own history.

[Gil Hamilton]

Actually according to Age they just never happened.

Because Xavier's death...Apoc happened literally 20 years his normal time, thus most of the events that caused 95% of the heros to come to be just never happened.

Literally he kicked none of their butts, because there was no one to kick.

What? How did they never get their powers? Most of them got their powers in the 60s or 70s or even earlier, before the incident with Xavier, Magneto and Legion and certainly before Apocalypse made his move, which was in the 80s (he first appeared in X-Factor #5, IIRC, and X-Factor was very much an 80s thing). That's the thing with casuality, the change in the timeline was with Legion killing Xavier and Magneto forming the X-Men. That shouldn't have effected people like the Avengers, because their origins are entirely unconnected to Xavier or Magneto at all.

Plus, even if the superhero never formed, Apocalypse is going to have to problems. Without the Fantastic Four, Galactus is going to come some time during the 70s and destroy the planet. It's not like the Watcher is going to go out of his way to help Apocalypse get the Ultimate Nullifier or the Silver Surfer is going to be moved by the plight of Earth and go against Galactus. That means that Apocalypse still would have had to whip Silver Surfer and Galactus.

[Gil Hamilton]

Check that, the Coming of Galactus was in the 60s. Sorry, confused about some dates.

[Tsyroc]

Check that, the Coming of Galactus was in the 60s. Sorry, confused about some dates.

This sort of answers my question about Galactus, at least well enough for the typical weasling out of something that comics do.

Age of Apocolypse FAQ

Speaking of cosmic destruction, why didn't Galactus eat the Earth by now if the Fantastic Four, et al., weren't around to stop him?

This is probably one of the trickiest questions of the whole crossover, since it doesn't directly relate to the X-books at all. The X-Universe limited series proves that the Fantastic Four and the Avengers never existed in this timeline, due to the fact that Apocalypse apparently initiated his takeovers before they could be founded. This leaves two likely possibilities: that either Apocalypse or Magneto's X-Men had enough power by themselves to stop Galactus from destroying Earth, or the M'Krann crystalization wave managed to nail him before he even got close to Earth. It's also conceivable that D'Ken's new Shi'ar Empire was able to destroy him when he threatened one of their worlds, but since no one's been able to do this ever in our timeline, this is rather doubtful.

There's been a whole series of similar questions on the newsgroup concerning various related past events in Marvel history, that would have been dramatically affected by the absence of our timeline's X-Men, Fantastic Four, Avengers, etc. This FAQ isn't going to deal with these issues, partially because they're not relevant to the crossover per se, but mostly because we're not nearly well-versed enough on non-X-Men history to answer any of them. Just work under the assumption that it was all taken care of somehow as a consequence of Apocalypse or Magneto's actions, or even one of the other Marvel characters before they were killed in AOA.

I'm leaning towards Galactus never coming to Earth more than someone else driving him off. It still doesn't answer some other things but maybe they would have come up later if it weren't for the crystalization wave.

[Ghost Rider]

Actually according to Age they just never happened.

Because Xavier's death...Apoc happened literally 20 years his normal time, thus most of the events that caused 95% of the heros to come to be just never happened.

Literally he kicked none of their butts, because there was no one to kick.

What? How did they never get their powers? Most of them got their powers in the 60s or 70s or even earlier, before the incident with Xavier, Magneto and Legion and certainly before Apocalypse made his move, which was in the 80s (he first appeared in X-Factor #5, IIRC, and X-Factor was very much an 80s thing). That's the thing with casuality, the change in the timeline was with Legion killing Xavier and Magneto forming the X-Men. That shouldn't have effected people like the Avengers, because their origins are entirely unconnected to Xavier or Magneto at all.

Plus, even if the superhero never formed, Apocalypse is going to have to problems. Without the Fantastic Four, Galactus is going to come some time during the 70s and destroy the planet. It's not like the Watcher is going to go out of his way to help Apocalypse get the Ultimate Nullifier or the Silver Surfer is going to be moved by the plight of Earth and go against Galactus. That means that Apocalypse still would have had to whip Silver Surfer and Galactus.

You're confusing Real Time and Marvel Time.

Literally in their time, when Apocaplypse came into power...it would've been approximately the late 50's...with said teams not being formed easily into the 80-90-00(depending on Marvel whims)

Thus when Apoc came to be...they weren't there.

[Ghost Rider]

Check that, the Coming of Galactus was in the 60s. Sorry, confused about some dates.

This sort of answers my question about Galactus, at least well enough for the typical weasling out of something that comics do.

Age of Apocolypse FAQ

Speaking of cosmic destruction, why didn't Galactus eat the Earth by now if the Fantastic Four, et al., weren't around to stop him?

This is probably one of the trickiest questions of the whole crossover, since it doesn't directly relate to the X-books at all. The X-Universe limited series proves that the Fantastic Four and the Avengers never existed in this timeline, due to the fact that Apocalypse apparently initiated his takeovers before they could be founded. This leaves two likely possibilities: that either Apocalypse or Magneto's X-Men had enough power by themselves to stop Galactus from destroying Earth, or the M'Krann crystalization wave managed to nail him before he even got close to Earth. It's also conceivable that D'Ken's new Shi'ar Empire was able to destroy him when he threatened one of their worlds, but since no one's been able to do this ever in our timeline, this is rather doubtful.

There's been a whole series of similar questions on the newsgroup concerning various related past events in Marvel history, that would have been dramatically affected by the absence of our timeline's X-Men, Fantastic Four, Avengers, etc. This FAQ isn't going to deal with these issues, partially because they're not relevant to the crossover per se, but mostly because we're not nearly well-versed enough on non-X-Men history to answer any of them. Just work under the assumption that it was all taken care of somehow as a consequence of Apocalypse or Magneto's actions, or even one of the other Marvel characters before they were killed in AOA.

I'm leaning towards Galactus never coming to Earth more than someone else driving him off. It still doesn't answer some other things but maybe they would have come up later if it weren't for the crystalization wave.

I honestly believe they used the M'Kran crystal wave as deus ex machina that solved anything else.

Every extra terriestial event was just swallowed by the wave practically except those that they needed.

[Gil Hamilton]

You're confusing Real Time and Marvel Time.

Literally in their time, when Apocaplypse came into power...it would've been approximately the late 50's...with said teams not being formed easily into the 80-90-00(depending on Marvel whims)

Thus when Apoc came to be...they weren't there.

It had to be sometime after the early 80s. For one thing, Apocalypses opening move was to hijack the American ICBM missile command and trigger a full on nuclear war. ICBMs weren't fielded until the early sixties and there weren't enough to them to account for the huge amount of devestation that the Age of Apocalypse relies on.

Secondly, all our X-characters for the most part had counterparts in the Age of Apocalypse. Take the Gen-Xers, for instance. They are all teenagers in the modern day. If Apocalypse nuked the living shit out of everything in the fifties, what are the chances their parents would meet under the same circumstances and concieve them? Shadowcat, who lead the Gen-X kids in the AoA, was stated to be 13 when she was attempted to be recruited by Emma White and Xavier in the 80s. Keep in mind, she's from Chicago, which would have almost certainly have been nuked and then purged by Apocalypse. She shouldn't exist, unless Apocalypses move was made some time after she was born. Same goes for the rest of the Gen-Xers. In order for them to exist at all, Apocalypse would have had to made his move in the 80s, well after most of Marvels heavy hitting supergroups formed.

[Gil Hamilton]

<SNIPPITY FOR SPACE>

I'm leaning towards Galactus never coming to Earth more than someone else driving him off. It still doesn't answer some other things but maybe they would have come up later if it weren't for the crystalization wave.

Yes... because the crystallization wave that failed to destroy the inhabitants of Earth would surely kill a God-like being that had already managed to survive the destruction of the universe directly previous to ours, right?