Looney wants RFID implants required.

[Zed Snardbody]

Oh puh-lease, what a bunch of fucking posers. Are you all going to line up and kick the shit out of people who want to vaccinate your children too?

Aren't vaccinations voluntary?

No. You can't enter most elementary schools without vaccinations and you can't not send your children to school.

Ah, but if you're opposed to it, you can always elect to home school your children.

I think it comes down to that in this day and age, your body is the last thing that is really trully yours.

[Galvatron]

Apparently that's not the case in my state...

In California, state law provides for mandatory vaccinations for diphtheria, hepatitis, influenza, measles, mumps, pertussis, poliomyelitis, rubella and tetanus, and any other diseases designated by the Department of Health Services in consultation with the Center for Disease Control and the American Academy of Pediatrics. This requirement is waived if the person "files with the governing authority a letter or affidavit stating that the immunization is contrary to his or her beliefs." If the exemption is exercised, the student may be temporarily excluded from school if "there is good cause to believe that the person has been exposed" to one of the enumerated diseases "until the local health officer is satisfied that the person is no longer at risk of developing the disease." (California Health and Safety Code Section 120365). This is the "personal beliefs" exemption in California law.

Link

[The Kernel]

Ah, but if you're opposed to it, you can always elect to home school your children.

Realistically, there is no way to avoid vaccinations, and there is little reason to either (except perhaps fot the Thimerosal debate) just as there is no reason to not have medical ID tags implanted in people.

I think it comes down to that in this day and age, your body is the last thing that is really trully yours.

Nonsense, the body is not inviolate. Paternaty tests can be court mandated as can DNA.

[The Kernel]

Apparently that's not the case in my state...

Yay, let's point to fundie law as being the last bastion of freedom!

[Broomstick]

Jesus, there's a lot of hyperventilating in this thread. How anyone could be so deadset against a measure that will save lives and have precisely 0 negative effects is absolutely mystifying to me. It's nearly as ludicrous as opposing surveillence cameras in public places.

First of all, we've had an equivalent technology for decades - it's called a "medic alert" and can be worn as either a bracelet or necklace. In addition, since it's made of engraved steel, it's far more durable than any chip I've ever heard of, is discreet, and is easily read by EMT, paramedics, nurses, doctors, and other literate medical personnel. Nor does it require technology to extract the information, although if I recall correctly a phone number is provided for more details than is on the alert tag itself.

Most certainly, there IS a visceral, emotional reaction to the idea among many Americans. Guess what - if you want to implement something like this on a broad scale you're going to have to deal with those emotions.

Off the top of my head, you're going to have opposition from the following groups for the following reasons:

- The religious extremists will scream "Number of the Beast!"

- The blacks will scream because of the tagging chattel idea and bring up that nasty historical shit about slavery and owning/buying/selling of people.

- The Jews are going to draw parallels to Nazi Germany branding Jews.

- New Agers/Ecofreaks will scream about unnatural contamination of the human body.

- Other folks are going to wonder how the hell you get mistakes and inaccurate information off your chip - because mistakes do happen, folks.

- The paranoid have already been mentioned, with their concerns about the government's ability to scan crowds.

- At least some travelers are going to worry about being singled out in a crowd for terrorists and ill-wishes.

That's already a sizable number of people. Not to mention folks like me who just don't want to forced into something like this. If, like a medic alert, it truly was just for medical emergencies and could not be easily adapted to other purposes I'd consider it... but RFID doesn't have that limitation. Too much potential for mission creep, and we already have a medic alert system in place. What does this RFID chip do that makes it worthwhile to ditch the old system for the new? Or is there an ulterior motive at work?

Gotta remember - Americans do not trust their own government.

[Galvatron]

Apparently that's not the case in my state...

Yay, let's point to fundie law as being the last bastion of freedom!

Is it a fundie law if someone exercises it for purely non-religious beliefs?

[HemlockGrey]

So, in other words, there is no legitimate arguement against the chip other than paranoid ravings and slippery slope fallacies.

[Darth Wong]

Apparently that's not the case in my state...

Yay, let's point to fundie law as being the last bastion of freedom!

Is it a fundie law if someone exercises it for purely non-religious beliefs?

Yes. That's like asking if a guy who wants to force his ex-girlfriend to have his baby now that he's already impregnated her must be fundie if he uses a fundie law to get the job done. The point here is that certain mandatory medical procedures are beneficial to society.

[The Kernel]

Apparently that's not the case in my state...

Yay, let's point to fundie law as being the last bastion of freedom!

Is it a fundie law if someone exercises it for purely non-religious beliefs?

I'm not sure, I don't think this is as open as the language indicates. See, the law says "files with the governing authority a letter or affidavit stating that the immunization is contrary to his or her beliefs.", which on the surface indicates that it can apply to anyone who says that they dont' believe in vaccinations.

However, in practice, this has similar language to faith healing laws which are applied very narrowly to specific, well established religions.

[Darth Wong]

Most certainly, there IS a visceral, emotional reaction to the idea among many Americans.

Which is why I made the point earlier that these people are totally irrational.

we already have a medic alert system in place. What does this RFID chip do that makes it worthwhile to ditch the old system for the new? Or is there an ulterior motive at work?

Paranoia alert! Did it ever occur to you that there's nothing necessarily sinister about an improved version of an existing idea? Most historical human progress is based around that sort of thing, you know. And a medicalert bracelet that can't fall off or get lost is an improvement.

Gotta remember - Americans do not trust their own government.

There's a big difference between saying "I don't trust the government" and saying "everything the government does must be wrong even if I can't come up with a concrete reason."

[The Kernel]

First of all, we've had an equivalent technology for decades - it's called a "medic alert" and can be worn as either a bracelet or necklace. In addition, since it's made of engraved steel, it's far more durable than any chip I've ever heard of, is discreet, and is easily read by EMT, paramedics, nurses, doctors, and other literate medical personnel. Nor does it require technology to extract the information, although if I recall correctly a phone number is provided for more details than is on the alert tag itself.

Braclets and necklaces are cumbersome and some people don't want to bother, a chip would be FAR easier.

As for it not being as durable, that's nonesense. My dog is chiped with an RFID tag that is the size of a grain of rice, and is neatly implanted in a patch of joint tissue. If a dog can't dislodge it, I don't see how a human would.

Most certainly, there IS a visceral, emotional reaction to the idea among many Americans. Guess what - if you want to implement something like this on a broad scale you're going to have to deal with those emotions.

Which has nothing to do with the fact that their, and your, arguments are irrational.

Off the top of my head, you're going to have opposition from the following groups for the following reasons:

- The religious extremists will scream "Number of the Beast!"

Irrational.

- The blacks will scream because of the tagging chattel idea and bring up that nasty historical shit about slavery and owning/buying/selling of people.

Irrational.

- The Jews are going to draw parallels to Nazi Germany branding Jews.

Irrational, and a slippery slope.

- New Agers/Ecofreaks will scream about unnatural contamination of the human body.

Irrational, RFID tags are far less invasive then even the simplest implants. Hell, they are less invasive then tooth fillings.

- Other folks are going to wonder how the hell you get mistakes and inaccurate information off your chip - because mistakes do happen, folks.

Irrational, a medical ID braclet can also be wrong or misread, that doesn't make it useless.

- The paranoid have already been mentioned, with their concerns about the government's ability to scan crowds.

Irrational and a slippery slope.

- At least some travelers are going to worry about being singled out in a crowd for terrorists and ill-wishes.

Slippery slope.

That's already a sizable number of people. Not to mention folks like me who just don't want to forced into something like this. If, like a medic alert, it truly was just for medical emergencies and could not be easily adapted to other purposes I'd consider it... but RFID doesn't have that limitation. Too much potential for mission creep, and we already have a medic alert system in place. What does this RFID chip do that makes it worthwhile to ditch the old system for the new? Or is there an ulterior motive at work?

Much like the arguments you cited, yours is irrational and full of slippery slopes.

Gotta remember - Americans do not trust their own government.

Good for them, it doesn't matter to this argument in the slightest.

[LadyTevar]

I think it comes down to that in this day and age, your body is the last thing that is really trully yours.

Nonsense, the body is not inviolate. Paternaty tests can be court mandated as can DNA.

Paternity is a different matter altogether, as you are trying to determine if a man is legally responsible for the care and upkeep of the child he sired. DNA tests in those cases are for the Child's welfare, which is considered by some to be more important than the possible father's privacy.

If you think about it, there's also the DNA tests given to rape suspects, which some object to as an invasion of privacy whether or not it could prove them innocent.

[Broomstick]

Most certainly, there IS a visceral, emotional reaction to the idea among many Americans.

Which is why I made the point earlier that these people are totally irrational.

we already have a medic alert system in place. What does this RFID chip do that makes it worthwhile to ditch the old system for the new? Or is there an ulterior motive at work?

Paranoia alert! Did it ever occur to you that there's nothing necessarily sinister about an improved version of an existing idea?

A medic alert can be read by anyone provided they can see and there is sufficient light. A RFID requires technology to read.

If you have a "mass casualty" accident are you going to have enough RFID readers to go around?

Wong, didn't you write an essay or two about needless techy additions to functional objects?

And a medicalert bracelet that can't fall off or get lost is an improvement.

Short of lopping off a limb - which, depending on where it's implanted, could also remove an RFID chip - medic alert bracelets are pretty foolproof. You can take one off, but it's highly unlikely they'd fall off.

Gotta remember - Americans do not trust their own government.

There's a big difference between saying "I don't trust the government" and saying "everything the government does must be wrong even if I can't come up with a concrete reason."

I didn't say I don't trust anything the government does - I did say I don't trust the government is doing this out of altruistic motives.

And ya'll can stick your fingers in your ears and go "la-la-la - Americans are irrational - la-la-la" but the fact is they WILL have those reactions and the US government will have to grapple with several million irrational human beings in this matter. It's not rational we keep our Imperial measurements, either, but despite government effort that hasn't changed either, and it was a hell of a lot less controversial than this will be.

[LadyTevar]

Wong, Kernel,
The problem with Irrational Arguements is that there's more irrational humans than rational. Even I, who am the absolute farthest I can get from being a Fundie, had the verse from Revelation pop into my head when I saw the article. Why? Because it was something I feared from my childhood, taught to me when I was a good little Baptist.

Yes, there are good uses for the RFID. However, the idea of something implanted in me with that information, that anyone with enough skill to build a device to pick up the signal can read, THAT scares me.

Build a non-broadcast, and I'll consider it. The idea of an EMT or an ER nurse having to wave a wand less than an inch over my arm to get the information doesn't bother me that much.

[The Kernel]

Paternity is a different matter altogether, as you are trying to determine if a man is legally responsible for the care and upkeep of the child he sired. DNA tests in those cases are for the Child's welfare, which is considered by some to be more important than the possible father's privacy.

If you think about it, there's also the DNA tests given to rape suspects, which some object to as an invasion of privacy whether or not it could prove them innocent.

The point I was making is that the privacy of your body can be violated by a court.

[Galvatron]

Found this at ACLU.org...

RFID Position Statement of Consumer Privacy And Civil Liberties Organizations

And, just so everyone knows they're still on-target, dead center on their main page is "REFORM THE PATRIOT ACT."

[Darth Wong]

A medic alert can be read by anyone provided they can see and there is sufficient light. A RFID requires technology to read.

I've seen the ones they use to read a chip implanted in a dog. It's nothing to get excited about.

If you have a "mass casualty" accident are you going to have enough RFID readers to go around?

Why not? They're no big deal.

Wong, didn't you write an essay or two about needless techy additions to functional objects?

Yes. They're a bad idea if they introduce unreliability or public risk. This technology does not; it's very well-tested and simple.

And a medicalert bracelet that can't fall off or get lost is an improvement.

Short of lopping off a limb - which, depending on where it's implanted, could also remove an RFID chip - medic alert bracelets are pretty foolproof. You can take one off, but it's highly unlikely they'd fall off.

Having worked in many factories where bracelets are prohibited and you have to take them off before you go onto the floor, you'll have to excuse me if I laugh at the idea that a metal bracelet would never be taken off.

I didn't say I don't trust anything the government does - I did say I don't trust the government is doing this out of altruistic motives.

Irrelevant to the fact that you have to show something is wrong before declaring that it's wrong.

And ya'll can stick your fingers in your ears and go "la-la-la - Americans are irrational - la-la-la" but the fact is they WILL have those reactions and the US government will have to grapple with several million irrational human beings in this matter. It's not rational we keep our Imperial measurements, either, but despite government effort that hasn't changed either, and it was a hell of a lot less controversial than this will be.

By this logic, gay marriage is a bad idea because idiots hate it.

[The Kernel]

A medic alert can be read by anyone provided they can see and there is sufficient light. A RFID requires technology to read.

If you have a "mass casualty" accident are you going to have enough RFID readers to go around?

Stockpile them of course. The same thing you do with defibrillators and medicine.

Wong, didn't you write an essay or two about needless techy additions to functional objects?

That would only apply if they had the same capabilities, which is wrong. The implanted chip means that you don't have to have the burden of wearing a piece of metal, in fact you won't even notice it. People like me who can't even stand wearing a watch are going to be very happy at the convenience.

Short of lopping off a limb - which, depending on where it's implanted, could also remove an RFID chip - medic alert bracelets are pretty foolproof. You can take one off, but it's highly unlikely they'd fall off.

People can take off medical bracelets, they can't take off the chips. That's the beauty of the chips, they are actually completely unobtrusive, unlike the bracelets.

And ya'll can stick your fingers in your ears and go "la-la-la - Americans are irrational - la-la-la" but the fact is they WILL have those reactions and the US government will have to grapple with several million irrational human beings in this matter. It's not rational we keep our Imperial measurements, either, but despite government effort that hasn't changed either, and it was a hell of a lot less controversial than this will be.

Don't pretend that you are all of a sudden arguing from a realist perspective, you share in the irrationality of the average American. The point of this argument isn't the social feasibility, it's whether or not there is any logical reason not to make these things mandatory.

[Darth Wong]

Found this at ACLU.org...

RFID Position Statement of Consumer Privacy And Civil Liberties Organizations

And, just so everyone knows they're still on-target, dead center on their main page is "REFORM THE PATRIOT ACT."

Did you actually read it? It's covering the entire concept of RFID tags, even those which are built into consumer goods rather than being implanted into your body.

[The Kernel]

Wong, Kernel,
The problem with Irrational Arguements is that there's more irrational humans than rational. Even I, who am the absolute farthest I can get from being a Fundie, had the verse from Revelation pop into my head when I saw the article. Why? Because it was something I feared from my childhood, taught to me when I was a good little Baptist.

Irrelevent to the point of the argument. I'm not arguing about social feasibility, what I'm arguing is that anyone who is adverse to having these chips implanted is doing so because of irrational, emotional, illogical reasons.

Yes, there are good uses for the RFID. However, the idea of something implanted in me with that information, that anyone with enough skill to build a device to pick up the signal can read, THAT scares me.

Irrational fear is not unheard of, but it is unreasonable. Praytell, even if someone did read your medical information, what exactly are they going to do with it?

Build a non-broadcast, and I'll consider it. The idea of an EMT or an ER nurse having to wave a wand less than an inch over my arm to get the information doesn't bother me that much.

Which is what we've been suggesting from the start.

[The Kernel]

Is it just me or is the entire argument from those against these RFID chips either an appeal to popularity or a slippery slope falacy?

[The Kernel]

By this logic, gay marriage is a bad idea because idiots hate it.

Gay Marriage 1: Gay Marriage is bad because the majority of Americans think it is immoral!

RFID 1: RFID chips are bad because the majority of Americans think it is immoral!


Gay Marriage 2: If we legalize Gay Marriage, then what is next? Marrying animals? Where does it end!

RFID 2: If we mandate RFID, then what is next? Monitoring our shopping habits? Where does it end!

[Galvatron]

Yeah, but I thought it was relevant more because it discusses the technology than government policy (which it merely glosses over).

[Broomstick]

Having worked in many factories where bracelets are prohibited and you have to take them off before you go onto the floor, you'll have to excuse me if I laugh at the idea that a metal bracelet would never be taken off.

Which is precisely why medic alerts come in forms other than just bracelets, such as necklace pendants rather like army dogtags. I suppose you could also argue for environments where those would be a hazard, too - and I wouldn't deny they exist - but many, if not most, people do not work or visit such environments and thus do not require implantable chips.

Also, given the fact that in the US one person with a chronic health problem can raise the health insurance premiums for a small business to the point that business just can't afford to insure its employees any longer, you may begin to understand that medical information in the US has ramifications beyond just saving lives. Knowledge you have a chronic condition, or have had a severe illness in the past, can make obtaining or retaining a job very difficult in the US. Despite the Americans with Disabilities Act. It's not right, but I know a number of people who keep medical history or conditions secret from their employers for fear of losing their jobs. The idea they have a non-removable chip in their arms that could be scanned at any time would be pretty anxiety-inducing - I have no doubt there would be employers using scanners to obtain whatever personal information they could, whether such snooping was legal or not.

And ya'll can stick your fingers in your ears and go "la-la-la - Americans are irrational - la-la-la" but the fact is they WILL have those reactions and the US government will have to grapple with several million irrational human beings in this matter. It's not rational we keep our Imperial measurements, either, but despite government effort that hasn't changed either, and it was a hell of a lot less controversial than this will be.

By this logic, gay marriage is a bad idea because idiots hate it.

Nope, by that argument legalizing gay marriage is going to be one hell of an uphill battle because so many idiots hate it.

Whether RFID's for medical purposes are a good or bad idea, implementation in the American general public is going to be a hellacious battle for all of the reasons I named, whether or not the objections are rational. While you, Wong, may operate out of logic and reason you are in a distinct minority on this planet. MOST people make these decisions from gut emotion. Whether that's a good thing or not is another question - regardless, you have to deal with messy irrational reactions with this sort of thing.

[Broomstick]

A medic alert can be read by anyone provided they can see and there is sufficient light. A RFID requires technology to read.

If you have a "mass casualty" accident are you going to have enough RFID readers to go around?

Stockpile them of course. The same thing you do with defibrillators and medicine.

Do these readers require batteries? Do they work in sub-freezing conditions? Summer heat? Can they withstand being dropped? Could a paramedic use one after crawling under a subway car in an unlit tunnel?

People can take off medical bracelets, they can't take off the chips. That's the beauty of the chips, they are actually completely unobtrusive, unlike the bracelets.

It is precisely the permance of the chip that some people find repulsive - like being forcibly tattooed against your will. The fact it will be invisible will not make such people any happier. They will still feel marked.

Don't pretend that you are all of a sudden arguing from a realist perspective, you share in the irrationality of the average American. The point of this argument isn't the social feasibility, it's whether or not there is any logical reason not to make these things mandatory.

I not pretending I didn't have an entirely emotional reaction to the idea - I certainly did. Now, however, I am trying to find a rational argument rather than an emotional one. Maybe I'll succeed or maybe I won't.

Avoiding mob action is one reason, in my mind, to tread softly in this matter. If you have mass demonstrations against this technology what are you going to do? Round everyone up at gunpoint to have them injected? While some will submit many will not. Even if you do implant them foricbly how are you going to stop people from digging them out via free-lance surgery?

And why is it so fucking important for everyone to have a medical chip? I have no objections to making it a choice for those who have complicated medical issues, but for the ordinary person....? WHY? Most people don't have life-threatening allergies, for example. Does this benefit the average person sufficiently to justify the expense and hassle?