Reaction to phaser hits

[The Silence and I]

TNG Phaser Reaction Statistics Notes

Here are the notes from TNG.

I found some webspace I had forgotten about.

You rock!

[Slartibartfast]

Proof that anything was unusual in the makeup of the aliens.

I think the eyeshadow was a bit too dark...

[Questor]

Proof that anything was unusual in the makeup of the aliens.

I think the eyeshadow was a bit too dark...

Really, I thought the heads looked absolutely rediculous.

[Batman]

Proof that anything was unusual in the makeup of the aliens.

I think the eyeshadow was a bit too dark...

Nitpicker.
*throws rotten tomatoe batarang*

[drachefly]

As for the KE:

Not that I think that phasers act by KE transfer, but it is quite possible for a phaser to have a KE effect on the target without having a significant KE effect on the firer... IF we assume that some of the internal energy of the phaser blast is converted into KE through an explosion in some fashion.

Like, if you toss a grenade at a wall and it knocks the wall over, you don't immediately conclude that this situation was unphysical because your arm and body didn't absorb all the impulse of the wall falling over.

Where is the kickback going? There's a better question, probably one we can't answer. Subspace, anyone?

Oh, and as for knocking people off their feet, we could take a cue from the pre-exploding asteroids in the turbolaser commentaries and suggest that perhaps the leading edge of electromagnetic channel of the phaser causes a nerve impulse which causes the victim to throw himself backward as if he were an actor in a low-budget TV show. Oh, wait...

[Batman]

As for the KE:
Not that I think that phasers act by KE transfer, but it is quite possible for a phaser to have a KE effect on the target without having a significant KE effect on the firer...

Did you even read the thread? Phasers having KE effects on the target is a KNOWN FACT, because we've seen it on screen.

IF we assume that some of the internal energy of the phaser blast is converted into KE through an explosion in some fashion.

For which there is NO EVIDENCE WHATSOEVER.

Like, if you toss a grenade at a wall and it knocks the wall over, you don't immediately conclude that this situation was unphysical because your arm and body didn't absorb all the impulse of the wall falling over.
Where is the kickback going? There's a better question, probably one we can't answer. Subspace, anyone?

What kickback? In your grenade example there would be no kickback either, why assume there ought to be any in phasers (the unapplicability of your example notwhithstanding)?
If you DO assume there ought to be kickback, you ALSO assume that phasers work via KE transfer, for which we have no evidence, but plenty against.

Oh, and as for knocking people off their feet, we could take a cue from the pre-exploding asteroids in the turbolaser commentaries and suggest that perhaps the leading edge of electromagnetic channel of the phaser causes a nerve impulse which causes the victim to throw himself backward as if he were an actor in a low-budget TV show. Oh, wait...

I suggest you rewatch the scene in STIII. A person who can throw himself back like that (voluntarily or not) ought to put on a cape and fight crime.

[Questor]

Well, I am exactly 50% done with the DS9 Phaser Reaction Survey. I've decided to upload my notes to my webspace now, I have also uploaded a spreadsheet that combines the statistics into one sheet.

I havn't gotten as far with entering the data into the sheets for the Hit/Miss stats, so those are not included yet.

The links are in my sig.

[drachefly]

Batman, your criticism of my post is flatly idiotic. You are pretending that I am claiming the exact opposite of what I said, by cutting apart my sentences into too-small chunks.

You proceeded to do this twice -- in your first response section, and the third. In the latter case, I can't even blame your lack of comprehension on unwarranted dependent clause separation.

The only explanation for this confusion that I can find is my mistaken usage of the word 'kickback' to refer to both balancing impulses: the one on the firer and the one which accounts for the missing momentum of the target. This was confusing, and I should not have done it.

However, considering that you didn't realize that my last paragraph was more of a joke than a serious suggestion, I'm not inclined to be so charitable.


To recapitulate:
I was simply saying that as a result of elementary newtonian physics (in an aspect which is precisely preserved by quantum mechanics), there is exactly one solution to why victims of phasers would experience repulsion while the firer would not have kickback: a third locale for momentum and energy.

Conservation of momentum at the firing event constains the momentum of the phaser blast to be low. However, it can have high internal energy.

Conservation of energy at the impacting event indicates that much of this internal energy is released into kinetic energy. Conservation of momentum dictates that something is released in the opposite direction to balance.

Note that release of internal energy into KE, in oppositely oriented momenta, during a collision... is called... an explosion. Even if you don't see fireworks.

So, I would SAY, that 350 years of physics constitutes evidence.

[brianeyci]

This is what people see,

1. Phaser shoots, person's shoulder doesn't get dislocated
2. People/Borg/Whatever get pushed back (to varying degrees)

Since they don't see the middle stage, they assume that the pushing back has to be some sort of "technobabble" effect. WHAT A LOAD OF BULLSHIT. There is obviously a transit stage between the phaser blast hitting the target and the person being pushed back.

It is obvious that somewhere along the way, the phaser particles gain kinetic energy somehow. Resorting to "technobabble" and then saying that phaser shots therefore have no kinetic energy is ridiculous. How much kinetic energy is up for debate. I'm waiting for Section31.com to get its movie screencaps up -- does anybody remember how far the Reman was thrown back in Nemesis? (I haven't seen it) Does the throwing back look like a ballistic trajectory?

Brian

[General Zod]

This is what people see,

1. Phaser shoots, person's shoulder doesn't get dislocated
2. People/Borg/Whatever get pushed back (to varying degrees)

Since they don't see the middle stage, they assume that the pushing back has to be some sort of "technobabble" effect. WHAT A LOAD OF BULLSHIT. There is obviously a transit stage between the phaser blast hitting the target and the person being pushed back.

It is obvious that somewhere along the way, the phaser particles gain kinetic energy somehow. Resorting to "technobabble" and then saying that phaser shots therefore have no kinetic energy is ridiculous. How much kinetic energy is up for debate. I'm waiting for Section31.com to get its movie screencaps up -- does anybody remember how far the Reman was thrown back in Nemesis? (I haven't seen it) Does the throwing back look like a ballistic trajectory?

Brian

i just chalk up reactions to phaser blasts to being akin to reactions of getting an electrical shock. electricity has almost no noticeable kinetic energy to speak, but the reaction that occurs when someone gets zapped is going to be noticeable.

[brianeyci]

i just chalk up reactions to phaser blasts to being akin to reactions of getting an electrical shock. electricity has almost no noticeable kinetic energy to speak, but the reaction that occurs when someone gets zapped is going to be noticeable.

Good explaination for dustbusters and cobra phasers. But Jason Miles did some research of his own, and I believe he concluded that pulse phaser rifles are the only reliable source of kinetic energy.

I'm waiting to see a screencap of the Reman in Nemesis, and see how far he was thrown back. Methinks that this was more than an "electrical shock".

Brian

[drachefly]

Fine. The only way to gain KE is to ditch some of your internal energy into oppositely-oriented reaction mass (even if it's a photon or more exotic subspace wave or something). This can be done in transit, which would be sort of odd, as the phaser beam appears homogeneous and has diminishing strength with range, not increasing; or it can be done upon impact, in which case the momentum exchange interaction is technically called an 'explosion', even in the absence of pyrotechnics.

This is high-school physics, people.

[The Silence and I]

Aye.

One theory was that phaser reactions produce neutrinoes and that a significant excess would for some reason be directed back along the beam's firing path and produce a reaction thrust. There are a few issues with that particular variation of the idea though as completely phasorized victems actually experience no kick back (when your particles are converted to neutrineos and directed toward the firing gun the remaining ones will experience a kick back until they too are converted, and the process does take time) and victems without a mark to be seen (implying very little or no neutrino conversion) can be hurled violently (pulse phasers do this usually).

For those reasons I expect there is another form of explosion happening, but regardless some explosion is happening and there is no reason to assume knockback is due to something else.

[Batman]

1. Drachefly's definition of explosion.
I'm working with this one.

1 : to burst forth with sudden violence or noise from internal energy: as a : to undergo a rapid chemical or nuclear reaction with the production of noise, heat, and violent expansion of gases <dynamite explodes> b : to burst violently as a result of pressure from within

If there is a definition that defines explosion as any 'momentum exchange interaction', I'll be glad to concede, assuming you can show the definition.
2. The 'electrical shock' theory breaks down in the face of the phaser incident from STIII, where a Klingon is physically picked off his feet and thrown several meters through the air (in a manner inexplainable by KE transfer BTW so the phaser beam 'somehow' gaining KE is not an explanation (how this is supposed to be more plausible than technobabble is beyond me anyway)).

[The Silence and I]

The simplest definition of an explosion is found in physics, basically it amounts to having as few as two objects that started together but are hurled in different directions at velocities that cause the change in momentum to add through vectors to zero. The cause of the change is irrelevant. A gun firing is an explosion, a bomb is an explosion, me throwing a rock is an explosion as well. In this phaser example, the target is treated as one object in the explosion. Something we do not see or feel is sent the other way, thus conserving momentum. A classic exploding bomb problem with a sci fi twist.

A typical problem in physics is to have a bomb; it explodes without any pyrotechnics and the bomb case breaks into two unequal pieces. We are given the mass of both and the total K.E. We then find the speed of both fragments keeping momentum conserved.

e.g. A bomb masses 3 kg. It explodes into two pieces massing 1 and 2 kg respectively. The total K.E. is 48 J, find the speed of each fragment.
To conserve momentum (mom=m*v) Fragment One must move at 2 times the speed of Fragment Two. Letting the velocity of Fragment Two (v2) = x, v1 must equal 2x.

K.E. = 0.5*m*v^2, Therefore:
Total K.E. = [0.5*m1*(2x)^2] + [0.5*m2*x^2]
48 J = 0.5*1kg*(2x)^2 + 0.5*2kg*x^2
48 J = .5kg*4x^2 + 1kg*x^2 = 3x^2 kg (At this point I am dropping units because I don't know what happens with the square root--it just works )
16 = x^2
Therefore x = 4 m/s. Fragment One is moving at 8 m/s and Fragment Two is moving at 4 m/s in the opposite direction. I know I am right by checking; [(.5)(1kg)(8m/s)^2] + [(.5)(2kg)(4m/s)^2] = 48 kg*m/s, AKA 48 J.

This may not be flashy but it is an exploding bomb problem, and so is a phaser impact (actually, a rocket engine is a bomb as well, that might help you think about it).

[brianeyci]

2. The 'electrical shock' theory breaks down in the face of the phaser incident from STIII, where a Klingon is physically picked off his feet and thrown several meters through the air

Phasers have not been demonstrated to do this in any other instance, and they were on a planet where physical laws were being violated by the second. Translation -- phaser impacts have not been seen to throw someone like that anywhere else, so basing a theory of phasers on a single incident is hardly satisfying.

A better way to counter the electrical shock idea would be to show the picture of the Reman being thrown back in Nemesis. How far was he thrown back, and was it a proper ballistic path so you could intepret it as him being hit by a shitload of KE?

(in a manner inexplainable by KE transfer BTW so the phaser beam 'somehow' gaining KE is not an explanation (how this is supposed to be more plausible than technobabble is beyond me anyway)).

Holy shit. Newton's third law is basically what stands between the way of "technobabble" explaining the throwing back. Obviously, because a person is thrown back by a phaser, the only way for him to be thrown back is for a force to be exerted on him. The mechanism for momentum is precedented by all of history. The precedent for this "technobabble" explaination? Subspace incursion? Tunneling effect? The Force? You can't explain away what you don't like with an undefined mechanism.

The phaser particles "gaining" KE somehow is the only rational explaination. Whether or not this is because of an explosion, or something else, I leave to more capable minds.

Brian

[Lord Poe]

Lore shooting to scare Beverly, etc. If someone is deliberately trying to miss or is using a handicapped weapon, it shouldn't be included in the general statistics --

You've GOT to be kidding. You're actually attempting to give validity to Darkstar's idiotic take on that scene, to "explain" why Crusher's arm wasn't "tooc-ed?"

What you'll have to ask yourself is, WHY would Lore be "scaring" Crusher and deliberately miss, use a super-duper low power shot, whatever else Darkstar can pull out of his ass, if Lore was eventually going to feed the entire crew to the Crystalline Entity? Oops.

[Batman]

First off, thanks, Silence. I was apparently working with a too narrow definition of explosion. Conceeded.

Phasers have not been demonstrated to do this in any other instance, and they were on a planet where physical laws were being violated by the second.

Evidence that this influenced the effects of the phaser, please.
While we're at it, evidence that laws of physics were being violated by the second.

You can't explain away what you don't like with an undefined mechanism.

Why not? It's exactly what you're doing. Unless you can explain the mechanism by which phaser particles magically gain KE in mid-flight?

The phaser particles "gaining" KE somehow is the only rational explaination.

Emphasis mine. You're kidding, right?

[brianeyci]

You've GOT to be kidding. You're actually attempting to give validity to Darkstar's idiotic take on that scene, to "explain" why Crusher's arm wasn't "tooc-ed?"

Who said anything about Darkstar? Holy shit. So do you actually think that Lore was trying to KILL Beverly? First of all, the context of which I brought this up did not have anything to do with the "power" of a phaser, and had everything to do with accuracy. Second of all, Lore shooting Beverly and making the coat go on fire means as much as the Leia arm scene -- fucking jackshit. We know fucking phasers can blow holes in rock and vaporize people, and one incident of a person using a lower setting isn't representative of the capabilities of phasers. By the way. I'm not DS. Leia being hit in the arm means jackshit, if the trooper was using lower settings as ORDERED to by the Emperor. Just like being hit in the arm with a phaser that we know to have sixteen settings means jackshit.

DATA
I will stay with Wesley, Doctor.

LORE
Go! Or he'll be shrieking on the
count of five. One... two...

72 ANOTHER ANGLE (OPTICAL & SPECIAL EFFECTS)

Beverly panics, hurries toward the small door where
they had entered.

BEVERLY
I'll bring help, Wesley.

LORE
Thank you for my human quality,
Doctor Soong.
(aiming phaser)
Now a small payment for your son's
misdeeds.

LORE PHASERS BEVERLY, a BEAM which strikes her left
arm in a FLASH OF FIRE.

Lore fucking counts to three to tell Beverly to run away. Now if Lore wanted to kill Beverly, do you think he would have fucking counted to three and told her to run away? If Lore counted to three, and told Beverly to run away, there are a few possibilities. Lore wanted to have fun and set the phaser to a low setting to burn the coat off. Lore wanted to tell Beverly to run away, then shoot her in the back. It is definitely not "Lore wanted to kill Beverly outright", which Lore could have done easily at any time without wasting time saying "leave at the count of three" or anything else.

In any case, "small payment for your son's misdeeds" could mean fucking anything. It could be that Lore was trying to kill Beverly, or it could be that Lore was trying to have a little fun. Meaning that if you want to claim phasers suck cock when not firing at the center of mass of a target, you'll need additional evidence. Phasers have more settings, and lower settings is a good explaination.

What you'll have to ask yourself is, WHY would Lore be "scaring" Crusher and deliberately miss, use a super-duper low power shot, whatever else Darkstar can pull out of his ass, if Lore was eventually going to feed the entire crew to the Crystalline Entity? Oops.

Holy fucking shit, that's like saying "why did the Emperor order his troops to capture them alive, when he was probably going to kill them in the end anyway." There are many reasons, from Lore being a sadistic bastard who wanted to take a child hostage and shoot at someone for fun, to being logical and wanting to leave as much food for the crystalline entity as possible to please it. I don't see how you can conclude anything about the capabilities of phasers in this scene, other than one of the sixteen settings being incredibly low.

Brian

[brianeyci]

Evidence that this influenced the effects of the phaser, please. While we're at it, evidence that laws of physics were being violated by the second.

I can't produce evidence that this influenced the effects of the phaser. However, one instance of the phaser doing one thing that has not been repeated again doesn't mean you should base an entire theory of phasers around it.

The Genesis planet was "aging rapidly" and ended up exploding itself apart. I'm not a physics buff, but I know that planets don't normally self-destruct.

Why not? It's exactly what you're doing. Unless you can explain the mechanism by which phaser particles magically gain KE in mid-flight?

Drachefly is defining how phaser particles gain KE. There is no explaination of how there would be a violation of Newton's Laws with the technobabble mechanism. Either at some point the phaser particles gain KE and impact on the target, or there is no KE and technobabble magically spurts a force up to push the target backwards. Or are you violating Newton's first law along with Newton's third law with the technobabble? Holy shit.

Brian

[Lord Poe]

Who said anything about Darkstar?

Because that's one of his key arguments against why Crusher's arm wasn't destroyed.

Holy shit. So do you actually think that Lore was trying to KILL Beverly?

What's good for the goose....

First of all, the context of which I brought this up did not have anything to do with the "power" of a phaser, and had everything to do with accuracy.

You said "scare Beverly" in the context that you wanted "variables" like this properly represented in that phaser databank you gents are collecting. That indicates to me you want to explain the scene away when it comes to power.

Second of all, Lore shooting Beverly and making the coat go on fire means as much as the Leia arm scene -- fucking jackshit.

Except in the Leia scene, she was meant to be taken prisoner. Crusher wasn't under such protection.

We know fucking phasers can blow holes in rock and vaporize people, and one incident of a person using a lower setting isn't representative of the capabilities of phasers.

So frustrating, ain't it?

By the way. I'm not DS. Leia being hit in the arm means jackshit, if the trooper was using lower settings as ORDERED to by the Emperor. Just like being hit in the arm with a phaser that we know to have sixteen settings means jackshit.

Sorry, this crap is rearing its ugly head again, and I plan on being just as stubborn as the VS Trekkies are. Thems the breaks...

[brianeyci]

You said "scare Beverly" in the context that you wanted "variables" like this properly represented in that phaser databank you gents are collecting. That indicates to me you want to explain the scene away when it comes to power.

The phaser databank is totally Jason Miles work. I just made a suggestion to account for accuracy. I believe the majority of his work concerns phazorizations and hit-misses.

Second of all, Lore shooting Beverly and making the coat go on fire means as much as the Leia arm scene -- fucking jackshit.

Except in the Leia scene, she was meant to be taken prisoner. Crusher wasn't under such protection.

She was ordered by Lore to run. It could mean Lore wanted her to run, or that Lore wanted to shoot her in the back. Can't say which Lore wanted.

Sorry, this crap is rearing its ugly head again, and I plan on being just as stubborn as the VS Trekkies are. Thems the breaks...

Cool. Misdirected to target it at me though, because I don't even accept the Leia arm scene as representative of blaster firepower anyway .

Brian

[The Silence and I]

LORE
(raising phaser)
Then why this marvelous gift, my
brother? The troublesome little
man-child.
(circling; to Wesley)
Are you prepared for the kind of
death you've earned, little man?

This is too much for Beverly. She draws her major
phaser, aiming it at Lore.

BEVERLY
If you take one step toward my
son...

Startled, Data takes his eyes off Lore for just a
fraction of a second... enough for Lore to send Data
spinning to where he blocks Beverly's aim. Wesley
tries to move in to help but Lore has already chopped
again at Data, spinning into Beverly, easily taking
the phaser away from her. He makes a quick setting
on it. Data is coming to his feet to attack Lore.

LORE
Ah, motherhood!
(aims phaser at Wesley)
Back off or I'll turn your little
man into a torch!

Frightened for Wesley, Beverly backs off. Lore makes
another quick setting, holding phaser on Wesley.

LORE
I promise him exquisite pain
unless you obey me too, dear
brother.

BEVERLY
Move away, Data, please!

Data backs off a few steps.

LORE
Do you see now the advantages of
being completely human?
(to Beverly)
It includes kindness. I give you
your life, Doctor. Go, quickly
and I may not injure your son at
all.

STAR TREK: "Datalore" - 10/26/87 - ACT FIVE 57.

71 CONTINUED: (2)

Beverly is willing to die if it helps her son. But
leaving him this way?

DATA
I will stay with Wesley, Doctor.

LORE
Go! Or he'll be shrieking on the
count of five. One... two...

Emphasis Mine.

As you can see from the script, Lore makes two modifications to the phaser's setting for the express purpose of causing Wesley extreme, prolonged pain. This cannot be accomplished with the kill setting, it is too quick and relatively painless. He made no furthur adjustments before firing on Dr. Crusher's arm, THEREFORE the only rational explanation, whatever bias you may have, is that Lore's phaser was set to a low thermal setting when he shot Dr. Crusher.

So FORGET DARKSTAR! The conclusion has nothing to do with him. As for Lore, he seemed extremely smug after hitting Beverly's arm, not in the least bit upset she ran off alive. I suspect your dislike of Darkstar has clouded your judgement Lord Poe.

[The Silence and I]

First off, thanks, Silence. I was apparently working with a too narrow definition of explosion. Conceeded.

You are quite welcome, it was my pleasure to help.

[Batman]

Evidence that this influenced the effects of the phaser, please. While we're at it, evidence that laws of physics were being violated by the second.

I can't produce evidence that this influenced the effects of the phaser. However, one instance of the phaser doing one thing that has not been repeated again doesn't mean you should base an entire theory of phasers around it.

I'm not BASING the entire theory on it. Unless and until somebody shows that phasers CANNOT behave like this, I maintain that the theory needs to explain this incident.

The Genesis planet was "aging rapidly" and ended up exploding itself apart. I'm not a physics buff, but I know that planets don't normally self-destruct.

No shit Sherlock. Planets are usually not created by the Genesis torpedo either, so normal panetary behavior is not exactly the ideal matchstick for Genesis.
That the planet was unstable is not under dispute. That the laws of physics didn't apply on it/changed rapidly is.

Why not? It's exactly what you're doing. Unless you can explain the mechanism by which phaser particles magically gain KE in mid-flight?

Drachefly is defining how phaser particles gain KE.

And if you bother to check, he explicitely states that them doing so in mid-flight would be odd at the very least.

There is no explaination of how there would be a violation of Newton's Laws with the technobabble mechanism. Either at some point the phaser particles gain KE and impact on the target

For which you have no evidence, and even Drachefly agrees that that would be stange at the very least,

or there is no KE and technobabble magically spurts a force up to push the target backwards.

I like it how you assume that since the beam doesn't have noticeable KE there will be none applied to the target. How about the KE is provided by something that happens to the target?
Your 'phaser particles gain KE in mid-flight' idea has no more validity than Silence's (I think Mike mentions it on the main site, too) neutrino eruption theory. Add to that the STIII incident which CANNOT be explained by simple KE transfer, the fact that we KNOW phasers violate the laws of physics as we know them, the fact that your supposed KE gain is inconsistent as hell...

Or are you violating Newton's first law along with Newton's third law with the technobabble? Holy shit.

I am doing nothing of that kind. There are obviously KE/momentum effects applied to phaser targets. That does not mean that phaser particles carry said KE/momentum.