Weaknesses of the AT-AT

[Metahive]

Has it occured to any of you retards that A: The probe droid did indeed send pictures of the shield generator and B: Once they jumped into the system and detected an "area" being protected by a shield, that that gave them the exact coordinates of the rebel base?

My argument is that the shield was the only thing that tipped them of as to where the rebel base was located within the Hoth system since the probe's transmission was fragmentary and incomplete. Therefore if Death Squadron had exited hyperspace further away they would have to find the base first and given the rebels valuable time to evacuate unopposed. My point is that Ozzel entering closer to the system was not that bad a tactical decision.

All of which would be so successful at restoring the Republic. Without military assets it doesn't matter if the Rebels manage to assassinate the Emperor, because they still wouldn't be able to enforce democracy. But anyway, this a tangential to the main discussion, so I'll drop it.

One last comment, the Alliance never had the number of military assets to accomplish this anyway. What they brought to Endor was the main part of their fleet and that was only a couple of hundred vessels, mostly smaller ones.
The Empire relieved them of this duty by fragmentation and vicious infighting upon Palpatine's death. A situation that could have very well been an effect of (or at the very least exacerbated by) successful subversive actions.

When the Rebels have already had a couple days to pack up and leave, getting to the base half an hour faster isn't going to do jack shit.

The rebels were launching transports throughout the walker assault. Don't you think fewer of them would have made it into space if the imperials had reached the shield generator earlier? I think so.

And if in the time the Empire needs to reach the airfield they would have already destroyed the shield generator anyway, then there's no point.

Of course there's a point since it would have forced the rebels to split their defensive effort, weakening both defensive fronts making an earlier imperial victory more likely. Death Squadron theoretically had the numbers to easily try a two-pronged attack if all its ships carried the standard loadout of troops.

[Havok]

Which doesn't tell the Imperials where that generator is unless the probe droid transmitted a lot more in the way of information, which is one of the points under contention,

The Imperials only knew what system it was in. Clearly, the droid didn't communicate it's exact location which is why Vader is informed about the shield and what planet it is on. Why is that point under contention?

For a given definition of 'exact'. They know the rebel base is somewhere below the shield, nothing more, and technically, they can't even be sure of that-the Rebels might have set up the shield generator half a planet away as a deliberate distraction.

Right. And the Imperials wouldn't detect their generator unprotected for some reason? That and the rebels raised the shield in response to the Imperials entering the system, indicating that if they could have just left it off and remained undetected, they would have.

Which means-you can detect ships in hyperspace if you have access to top of the line imperial sensors. Which the Rebels at Hoth may very well not have had.

One thing we know about Star Wars is that technology is at a stand still. There has literally been centuries of stagnation. There is zero evidence that the Rebels are not on par technology wise with the Empire. Where they suffer and lack is in supply lines and resources to maintain the tech. They didn't just pick up that shield that is "strong enough to deflect ANY bombardment" at the 7-11.

And if you'd actually paid attention, you'd one of the points under contention is whether or not the Rebels could tell they'd be under attack from super far away. It doesn't matter if your peak speed is 30 knots, Mach 937 or Warp 2271 if you don't know you maybe should move because you don't know you're being shot at.

Please point to the visual evidence of any ship being one shoted in the movies? Because unless you can one shot a ship, not only is ot going to survive to opening barrage, but then it is going to jump away and you will have no idea where it went. It makes zero tactical sense to try to fire a non tracking turbo laser when just spacial drift is going to fuck your shot up over a long distance.

P.S. The one thing that did one shot a ship, the Death Star, had to get into orbit to hit a fucking planet. Pretty good indicator that Star Wars weapons don't have multi light year range. They don't even have multi planet range.

'Looking for him' means Vader intended to find him. The controversy I think is did Vader intend to capture Luke from the word go, which a full-scale bobbardment would have made-unlikely, at the very least.

"Obsessed with finding young Skywalker" now you can try to intemperate that any way you want, but that to me means, find and capture. Not obliterate in molten planet mantle. Also the line in the movie doesn't indicate that Vader's plan to bomb has been foiled. It is just Veers giving his commanding officer an indication of what they are dealing with. The shield is too strong to break through so they are gonna have to do it the hard way. Break out the AT-ATs.

I really thought all this shit is a given from just watching the movie.

[Havok]

Has it occured to any of you retards that A: The probe droid did indeed send pictures of the shield generator and B: Once they jumped into the system and detected an "area" being protected by a shield, that that gave them the exact coordinates of the rebel base?

My argument is that the shield was the only thing that tipped them of as to where the rebel base was located within the Hoth system since the probe's transmission was fragmentary and incomplete. Therefore if Death Squadron had exited hyperspace further away they would have to find the base first and given the rebels valuable time to evacuate unopposed. My point is that Ozzel entering closer to the system was not that bad a tactical decision.

Of course it was. It allowed the Rebels to detect their entry and thus, raise their shield for protection. The obvious conclusion is that had they came in further away, the Rebels, at the very least, might not have detected them and they could sneak up and blast whatever they wanted. As I said to Batman, the fact that they raised it the second they detected the fleet indicates that the jig was up and they better get that fucking shield up.
Now the rebels were operating under the assumption that "It's a good bet the Empire knows we are here." but they had already started evacuating. They weren't getting everything out at once and if the Empire didn't detect the power/shield generator (which must have been putting out massive amounts of power to deflect "any bombardment") they would spot the first wave of ships.
However, they lost the element of surprise and the chance to land the crippling blow to the shield generator that Veers later delivered.

Ozzel fucked up.

All of which would be so successful at restoring the Republic. Without military assets it doesn't matter if the Rebels manage to assassinate the Emperor, because they still wouldn't be able to enforce democracy. But anyway, this a tangential to the main discussion, so I'll drop it.

One last comment, the Alliance never had the number of military assets to accomplish this anyway. What they brought to Endor was the main part of their fleet and that was only a couple of hundred vessels, mostly smaller ones.
The Empire relieved them of this duty by fragmentation and vicious infighting upon Palpatine's death. A situation that could have very well been an effect of (or at the very least exacerbated by) successful subversive actions.[/quote]What the Alliance did was allow the Empire to revert back to a Senate/Chancellor run republic on it's own without Vader and Palpatine to impede it. Keep in mind, it took Palpatine until A New Hope to finally get rid of the Senate.

When the Rebels have already had a couple days to pack up and leave, getting to the base half an hour faster isn't going to do jack shit.

The rebels were launching transports throughout the walker assault. Don't you think fewer of them would have made it into space if the imperials had reached the shield generator earlier? I think so.

This is why Vader wanted to sneak up. Also the Rebels weren't evacuating for days, they were evacuating for hours. So yeah, half an hour does make a difference.

[Havok]

Also for the record since everyone seemed to forget, Vader went down to Echo Base personally. If he just wanted to kill Rebels there was no need to do that. He was seeking Luke and thought he was going to be on the Falcon. Orbital bombardment outside of "haha got your shield" was never a consideration. Capture was always Vader's mission.

[Metahive]

I'm not convinced the Empire had the time to try a sneak attack. That would have forced them to approach slower and more carefully to avoid any detectable energy spikes and given the rebels more time to escape the system unmolested, not to speak of the difficulty of detecting Echo Base first without making their presence known because I think once the transports are taking to space much valuable time has already been squandered to put up an effective blockade.

[Darth Tedious]

P.S. The one thing that did one shot a ship, the Death Star, had to get into orbit to hit a fucking planet. Pretty good indicator that Star Wars weapons don't have multi light year range. They don't even have multi planet range.

Indeed. The ICS, for all it's insanely high-end numbers, puts maximum effective ship gun ranges in light-seconds (10, IIRC).

[FTeik]

P.S. The one thing that did one shot a ship, the Death Star, had to get into orbit to hit a fucking planet. Pretty good indicator that Star Wars weapons don't have multi light year range. They don't even have multi planet range.

Indeed. The ICS, for all it's insanely high-end numbers, puts maximum effective ship gun ranges in light-seconds (10, IIRC).

No, it is is ten lightminutes, according to the Venator-entry. And in the NJO's Enemy-Lines-duology we have a NR-cruiser shooting at the worldship in orbit over Coruscant from outside the system (although that might not count, since some of the worldships are supposed to be DS-sized).

[Wing Commander MAD]

P.S. The one thing that did one shot a ship, the Death Star, had to get into orbit to hit a fucking planet. Pretty good indicator that Star Wars weapons don't have multi light year range. They don't even have multi planet range.

Indeed. The ICS, for all it's insanely high-end numbers, puts maximum effective ship gun ranges in light-seconds (10, IIRC).

The Death Star might not be the best example for weapon ranges. Being in orbit is certainly more dramatic, and fits with Tarkin's personality. Hitting a planet is more an issue of weapon power degradation over distance if anything, since a planet travels on a known and highly predictable course. You should easily be able to hit a planet from anywhere in the system as long as you have line of sight when using direct fire energy weapons. I really doubt you can use jamming enough to prevent a planet from being hit, and its not like planets can manuever (as general rule, I'm sure there is some bit of EU that has planets that move under power). The ~10 light second range is probably more of targetting issue than a weapons range one, as presumably you could just build bigger guns that delivered more energy to circumvent any time/distance related degradation/dissipation issues. Targetting should not be an issue whatsoever if you are only trying to hit the planet, and not a particular spot on the planet, while a ship orders of magnitude smaller and moving under its own power is another issue completely.

[Batman]

Frankly, given the firepower Wars ships have, being able to hit a roughly Death Star sized area on the planet is easily enough as long as they know it's the right roughly Death Star sized area and the Rebels can't see the incoming fire-assuming they simply wanted to blow the base to smithereens, of course.

[StarSword]

No, it is is ten lightminutes, according to the Venator-entry. And in the NJO's Enemy-Lines-duology we have a NR-cruiser shooting at the worldship in orbit over Coruscant from outside the system (although that might not count, since some of the worldships are supposed to be DS-sized).

Um, where did you read that? Worldships vary in size, but they average only 10 km in diameter according to the NEGVV. To my knowledge, the largest ships built by the Vong are the "grand cruisers" like the Legacy of Torment, which was only the size of the Executor-class.

[Lord Insanity]

Did everyone forget that scene from Hoth where we see out the main "window" of the AT-AT and it is clearly gaining on rebel troops running away full tilt. Its not gaining particularly fast but still AT-ATs are obviously at least a little bit faster than is being assumed in this discussion. They were slowing down and briefly stopping when shooting at fleeing troops and snowspeeders, but when they started moving forward they were at least going faster that a human can run.

Around 6:09 in this Hoth battle youtube clip.

[Havok]

Usain Bolt runs, at complete fucking MAXIMUM in absolutely OPTIMAL conditions (i.e. on a track, with almost no clothes on, fully nourished, fully rested, trained for his entire life), on his BEST FUCKING DAY, MAYBE 28mph. The average human male runs at about 15-20mph in optimal conditions.

Now, how fast do you think those guys, in full snow gear, IN the fucking snow, probably tired as fuck, carrying weapons, who trained in whatever military they were in for distance not speed, are going?

Maybe 10, 11mph. Saying the AT-AT is catching them isn't saying much at all.

[Lord Insanity]

As the movie scene shows the AT-AT's relative speed is more due to the fact that it kept slowing/stopping to shoot things, rather than simply being slow outright. Over 20 seconds we see Veers' AT-AT barely moving while shooting fleeing troops, then accelerating faster than those troops were running, then stopping to down a Snowspeeder. Would a "faster" vehicle really help if it was being used the same way?

Lets assume an AT-AT is only doing 15 miles an hour (about 24 kilometers per hour) to overtake troops running 10 mph. (about 16 kph) An AT-AT has a listed top speed of 60 kph. So if our assumption is correct, it is going almost half speed for a few seconds it that scene. I think the real issue is some people earlier in the thread balking at the alleged top speed of the AT-AT don't realize 60 kph is only about 37 mph. That it seems to be able to do that in terrain and conditions few vehicles could otherwise do their top speed, would be its main advantage.

[Darth Tedious]

...and again I'm going to point out that the top speed given for AT-ATs is for standard ones.

The AT-ATs used at Hoth at were modified 'Snow Walkers'.

[Havok]

Yeah, and I'm going to say that is fucking bullshit and point out that the Imperials had no fucking idea they were going to a planet covered in ice and snow.

[Stark]

What would they have changed, anyway? Engine cooling? It doesn't need chain tyres or different brakes.

[Vympel]

P.S. The one thing that did one shot a ship, the Death Star, had to get into orbit to hit a fucking planet. Pretty good indicator that Star Wars weapons don't have multi light year range. They don't even have multi planet range.

There's no connection between the Death Star getting into orbit of the Yavin gas giant to shoot at the moon though - that was AFAIK simply a result of where they ended up when they arrived in the system. Case in point, the shot that blew up Alderaan - that was plenty more than 'multi-planet' range if I understand your meaning correctly. Six planetary diameters (anti-grav range) specifically, according to the ANH novel.

(and of course, how many Yavins IVs could you stick between the Death Star's firing position at the end of the movie and where Yavin IV actually was?)

SWTC:- http://www.theforce.net/swtc/ds/index.html#range

[Darth Tedious]

Yeah, and I'm going to say that is fucking bullshit and point out that the Imperials had no fucking idea they were going to a planet covered in ice and snow.

There are also AT-ATs made for sandy and watery conditions.
Given that the Executor alone carries 30 AT-ATs, it's quite likely that they had ones for all seasons.
It would also explain why they sent so few, when they had so many at their disposal.

EDIT: And stiff shit, Galaxy Guide 3 says they were Snow Walkers.
canon canon canon canon canon canon canon canon canon canon canon canon . . .

[Havok]

That is the dumbest fucking thing I have ever heard in my life.

"We can obliterate planets, but we can't weather proof more than one climate."

This is why I utter ignore the retarded EU

[Vympel]

That is the dumbest fucking thing I have ever heard in my life.

"We can obliterate planets, but we can't weather proof more than one climate."

This is why I utter ignore the retarded EU

Its like Snow Troopers being specially trained. Any idiot who doesn't overthink it knows they're just Stormtroopers who put on their cold weather gear because hey, they found out they were going to an ice planet ...

And Snow Walkers my ass. If they need weather proofing, I'm sure the enormous crew of the Executor will take the few hours needed to do it.

[Darth Tedious]

Its like Snow Troopers being specially trained. Any idiot who doesn't overthink it knows they're just Stormtroopers who put on their cold weather gear because hey, they found out they were going to an ice planet ...

Well, the EU actually does tell us that the troops who marched on Hoth were the very same ones we saw taking the Tantive IV.

[Darth Ruinus]

...and again I'm going to point out that the top speed given for AT-ATs is for standard ones.

The AT-ATs used at Hoth at were modified 'Snow Walkers'.

Forgive me if I'm missing something, but as far as I know you are suggesting that these AT-ATs aren't moving at the listed top speed because they are snow walkers as opposed to normal AT-ATs right? Well, why is anyone assuming that any AT-AT should have been moving at max speed on Hoth? Maybe it's not their SOP to run full speed into an enemy line, or the top speed is for optimal conditions only?

[StarSword]

...and again I'm going to point out that the top speed given for AT-ATs is for standard ones.

The AT-ATs used at Hoth at were modified 'Snow Walkers'.

Forgive me if I'm missing something, but as far as I know you are suggesting that these AT-ATs aren't moving at the listed top speed because they are snow walkers as opposed to normal AT-ATs right? Well, why is anyone assuming that any AT-AT should have been moving at max speed on Hoth? Maybe it's not their SOP to run full speed into an enemy line, or the top speed is for optimal conditions only?

I listed several reasons for the AT-AT not moving at its maximum speed two pages ago. In essence, they were increased wear-and-tear, outrunning your escorts, and bumpy ride. I forgot one, as well: increased difficulty in hitting small targets, since the walker has to move its entire head to aim, and we already know from the scenes in Veers' cockpit that the head moves up and down as the vehicle moves forward.

[Sea Skimmer]

Its like Snow Troopers being specially trained. Any idiot who doesn't overthink it knows they're just Stormtroopers who put on their cold weather gear because hey, they found out they were going to an ice planet ...

So that's why people still have alpine troops in real life right, and Russia is even forming new units of them, because cold weather is totally not a problem? Its actually very reasonable for the Empire to still have winter/mountain type forces, its just the specific snowy conditions on Hoth (not a blizzard, not a mountain slope) wouldn't really demand it the way they might have otherwise.

And Snow Walkers my ass. If they need weather proofing, I'm sure the enormous crew of the Executor will take the few hours needed to do it.

The main problem with operating in bad winter weather is ice buildup and equipment simply freezing, assuming that Imperial Technology has made more basic real life issues like engine oil viscosity a non factor. Covering a walker in deicers and extra heaters might take quite a while. We certainly know winter does affect Star Wars equipment, since the rebels had to modify the speeders to work in the snow. I do believe the canon explanation for that was the radiators worked too well, cooling down the power plant to the point it couldn't function.

[Vympel]

So that's why people still have alpine troops in real life right, and Russia is even forming new units of them, because cold weather is totally not a problem? Its actually very reasonable for the Empire to still have winter/mountain type forces, its just the specific snowy conditions on Hoth (not a blizzard, not a mountain slope) wouldn't really demand it the way they might have otherwise.

Its one thing to have alpine or mountain troops for the military of a nation state where they're based in fixed areas of operation. Its a totally different prospect to think that riding around on Executor all the time there just happens to be a force of Snow Troopers who only get their moment to shine on the off chance that they're going to fight in a cold environment. Its a silly idea, real life analogies break down in those circumstances. Especially considering, as you said, that they didn't really need any special skills for the conditions on Hoth anyway - just the right unfiroms.