ONEG video: Hide And Q

PST: discuss Star Trek without "versus" arguments.

Moderator: Vympel

Samuel
Sith Marauder
Posts: 4750
Joined: 2008-10-23 11:36am

Re: ONEG video: Hide And Q

Post by Samuel »

And what did our effort to reshape Iraq into a western-friendly secular democracy produce? An Islamic republic dominated by Sharia law. Your nitpickery about Iraq's industrial level does not erase this reality.
When did I say I was aiming to spread democracy?
And this is based on what, exactly? Your say-so that it must turn out the way you fantasise? Iraq, whether you wish to admit it or not, illustrates the case against your theory. You could, perhaps, try to come up with a countervailing example of where intervention by an advanced culture on a primitive one has ever produced any result other than disaster.
Yeah, because the fact the administration was blatantly incompetant has nothing to do with the whole screwup :roll: Or the fact that "spreading democracy" only became our rationale after the first 4.

For a case where it worked... New Guinea? I'm not sure- most of the examples I can remember from histroy involve blatant exploitation.
User avatar
Formless
Sith Marauder
Posts: 4144
Joined: 2008-11-10 08:59pm
Location: the beginning and end of the Present

Re: ONEG video: Hide And Q

Post by Formless »

When did I say I was aiming to spread democracy?
You have consistently said that you want to spread the same kinds of living conditions as your hypothetical interstellar civilization would be enjoying. Spreading democracy is implied by that.

Besides, it is conceptually the same thing as the US stated intention to spread democracy anyway, even if you use a different terminology.
"Still, I would love to see human beings, and their constituent organ systems, trivialized and commercialized to the same extent as damn iPods and other crappy consumer products. It would be absolutely horrific, yet so wonderful." — Shroom Man 777
"To Err is Human; to Arrr is Pirate." — Skallagrim
“I would suggest "Schmuckulating", which is what Futurists do and, by extension, what they are." — Commenter "Rayneau"
The Magic Eight Ball Conspiracy.
User avatar
Patrick Degan
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 14847
Joined: 2002-07-15 08:06am
Location: Orleanian in exile

Re: ONEG video: Hide And Q

Post by Patrick Degan »

Samuel wrote:
And what did our effort to reshape Iraq into a western-friendly secular democracy produce? An Islamic republic dominated by Sharia law. Your nitpickery about Iraq's industrial level does not erase this reality.
When did I say I was aiming to spread democracy?
What do you think is implicit in your stated goal to remake a primitive world society into one fit to eventually become a Federation member?
And this is based on what, exactly? Your say-so that it must turn out the way you fantasise? Iraq, whether you wish to admit it or not, illustrates the case against your theory. You could, perhaps, try to come up with a countervailing example of where intervention by an advanced culture on a primitive one has ever produced any result other than disaster.
Yeah, because the fact the administration was blatantly incompetant has nothing to do with the whole screwup :roll: Or the fact that "spreading democracy" only became our rationale after the first 4.
Or maybe because the idea of transforming a completely alien society into a US-style democracy at gunpoint was crack-brained to begin with. Something which the elder Bush recognised but his idiot son did not. You seem to have a similar problem.
For a case where it worked... New Guinea? I'm not sure- most of the examples I can remember from histroy involve blatant exploitation.
You'll have to do a lot better than that.
When ballots have fairly and constitutionally decided, there can be no successful appeal back to bullets.
—Abraham Lincoln

People pray so that God won't crush them like bugs.
—Dr. Gregory House

Oil an emergency?! It's about time, Brigadier, that the leaders of this planet of yours realised that to remain dependent upon a mineral slime simply doesn't make sense.
—The Doctor "Terror Of The Zygons" (1975)
Samuel
Sith Marauder
Posts: 4750
Joined: 2008-10-23 11:36am

Re: ONEG video: Hide And Q

Post by Samuel »

What do you think is implicit in your stated goal to remake a primitive world society into one fit to eventually become a Federation member?
Isn't the Federation a federation? They don't seem to set political requirements for membership except that a world must be whole.
Or maybe because the idea of transforming a completely alien society into a US-style democracy at gunpoint was crack-brained to begin with. Something which the elder Bush recognized but his idiot son did not. You seem to have a similar problem.
Iraqis are completely alien and can't be forced into democracy? Too bad that Iraq... is currently a democracy. Or was the voting they did not "real" voting :roll:
You'll have to do a lot better than that.
Why? New Guinea highlands are a great example- they weren't opened to the outside world until recently and haven't had the crap exploited out of them although they are being brought into the modern world.
User avatar
Patrick Degan
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 14847
Joined: 2002-07-15 08:06am
Location: Orleanian in exile

Re: ONEG video: Hide And Q

Post by Patrick Degan »

Samuel wrote:
What do you think is implicit in your stated goal to remake a primitive world society into one fit to eventually become a Federation member?
Isn't the Federation a federation? They don't seem to set political requirements for membership except that a world must be whole.
They actually do require some representative government and have a charter of rights, which was quoted by Picard in "The Drumhead".
Or maybe because the idea of transforming a completely alien society into a US-style democracy at gunpoint was crack-brained to begin with. Something which the elder Bush recognized but his idiot son did not. You seem to have a similar problem.
Iraqis are completely alien and can't be forced into democracy? Too bad that Iraq... is currently a democracy. Or was the voting they did not "real" voting :roll:
Nice little strawman. I said the effort was to transform Iraq into a US-style secular democracy and that effort has very clearly failed. Let's see how long you can keep up this little tapdance of yours.
You'll have to do a lot better than that.
Why? New Guinea highlands are a great example- they weren't opened to the outside world until recently and haven't had the crap exploited out of them although they are being brought into the modern world.
No, they are not a "great example", since no effort is being made to effect a wholesale transformation of the native culture of the Dani, the indigenous tribe in that region, but to preserve it. In short, they are a complete red herring to the point you are attempting to argue.
When ballots have fairly and constitutionally decided, there can be no successful appeal back to bullets.
—Abraham Lincoln

People pray so that God won't crush them like bugs.
—Dr. Gregory House

Oil an emergency?! It's about time, Brigadier, that the leaders of this planet of yours realised that to remain dependent upon a mineral slime simply doesn't make sense.
—The Doctor "Terror Of The Zygons" (1975)
Samuel
Sith Marauder
Posts: 4750
Joined: 2008-10-23 11:36am

Re: ONEG video: Hide And Q

Post by Samuel »

They actually do require some representative government and have a charter of rights, which was quoted by Picard in "The Drumhead".
They accepted a world that was split in two parts- not exactly democracy.

Not to mention that is rather vague. I'm pretty sure the Soviet Union could pass that criteria. After all, the party is representative and they have a charter of rights.
Nice little strawman. I said the effort was to transform Iraq into a US-style secular democracy and that effort has very clearly failed. Let's see how long you can keep up this little tapdance of yours.


It hasn't failed yet :P And US style democracy isn't what I am aiming for- it isn't the only kind either (parliamentary, virtual, etc). Given the Bajorans are theocratic and let them in, I'd say the UFP is flexible.

Not to mention that the British successfully made India a British style democracy by force. It looks like Iraq could go the same route- break into three parts by religious/ethnic divide with a secular democracy and two others.
No, they are not a "great example", since no effort is being made to effect a wholesale transformation of the native culture of the Dani, the indigenous tribe in that region, but to preserve it. In short, they are a complete red herring to the point you are attempting to argue.
I don't care about the native culture! I just want to improve the standard of living. I remember reading Jared Diamond about how some of the natives of the interior had gone into the coffee business. You sure it is completely isolated?
User avatar
Patrick Degan
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 14847
Joined: 2002-07-15 08:06am
Location: Orleanian in exile

Re: ONEG video: Hide And Q

Post by Patrick Degan »

Samuel wrote:
They actually do require some representative government and have a charter of rights, which was quoted by Picard in "The Drumhead".
They accepted a world that was split in two parts- not exactly democracy.
Evidence for this contention, please.
Not to mention that is rather vague. I'm pretty sure the Soviet Union could pass that criteria. After all, the party is representative and they have a charter of rights.
And when a retired admiral attempted to violate those guarantees in the Federation constitution, she got smacked down by Starfleet Command. Did you not actually watch the episode?
Nice little strawman. I said the effort was to transform Iraq into a US-style secular democracy and that effort has very clearly failed. Let's see how long you can keep up this little tapdance of yours.


It hasn't failed yet :P And US style democracy isn't what I am aiming for- it isn't the only kind either (parliamentary, virtual, etc). Given the Bajorans are theocratic and let them in, I'd say the UFP is flexible.
Oh yes it has, no matter how much the apologists for the late war keep trying to say otherwise. The objective of the war was the installation of a US-style secular government. What we got instead is a theocratic Shiite government. And no, Bajor is not a Federation member —remember, they backed off the union and by the end of the series were still not a member world.
Not to mention that the British successfully made India a British style democracy by force. It looks like Iraq could go the same route- break into three parts by religious/ethnic divide with a secular democracy and two others.
No, the British did NOT make India a democracy by force —India's democracy had far more to do with Ghandi and the Congress of India movement than anything worked by the British, who were forced to quit the country after the Second World War broke their empire.
No, they are not a "great example", since no effort is being made to effect a wholesale transformation of the native culture of the Dani, the indigenous tribe in that region, but to preserve it. In short, they are a complete red herring to the point you are attempting to argue.
I don't care about the native culture! I just want to improve the standard of living. I remember reading Jared Diamond about how some of the natives of the interior had gone into the coffee business. You sure it is completely isolated?
I never said the Highlands were completely isolated, and now you change your argument when you've clearly gotten caught with your pants down. Around here, we call that "moving the goalposts".
When ballots have fairly and constitutionally decided, there can be no successful appeal back to bullets.
—Abraham Lincoln

People pray so that God won't crush them like bugs.
—Dr. Gregory House

Oil an emergency?! It's about time, Brigadier, that the leaders of this planet of yours realised that to remain dependent upon a mineral slime simply doesn't make sense.
—The Doctor "Terror Of The Zygons" (1975)
User avatar
Uraniun235
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 13772
Joined: 2002-09-12 12:47am
Location: OREGON
Contact:

Re: ONEG video: Hide And Q

Post by Uraniun235 »

Samuel wrote:I don't care about the native culture! I just want to improve the standard of living.
Oh, why didn't you say so? This simplifies things drastically!

The solution to effect your goals would be to beam up every single native inhabitant, take their children away, and educate and indoctrinate the children into becoming model 24th century citizens, then let them repopulate the planet as colonists of the Federation. Their backwards parents can live out their lives in relative, yet confined, luxury (maybe a huge space station of holodecks? an isolated planet cleared and prepared for just such a purpose?), and all their descendants will enjoy the benefits of being part of an advanced technological industrial society. The initial emotional trauma suffered by the abductees would surely be trivial compared to the comfort and low death rate of their grandchildren... right?

Let me know if I missed anything.
"There is no "taboo" on using nuclear weapons." -Julhelm
Image
What is Project Zohar?
"On a serious note (well not really) I did sometimes jump in and rate nBSG episodes a '5' before the episode even aired or I saw it." - RogueIce explaining that episode ratings on SDN tv show threads are bunk
Samuel
Sith Marauder
Posts: 4750
Joined: 2008-10-23 11:36am

Re: ONEG video: Hide And Q

Post by Samuel »

Evidence for this contention, please.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_High_G ... eneration)
And when a retired admiral attempted to violate those guarantees in the Federation constitution, she got smacked down by Starfleet Command. Did you not actually watch the episode?
Drumhead? So they have legal procedure they have to follow... which isn't the same thing as rights or democracy.
Oh yes it has, no matter how much the apologists for the late war keep trying to say otherwise. The objective of the war was the installation of a US-style secular government. What we got instead is a theocratic Shiite government. And no, Bajor is not a Federation member —remember, they backed off the union and by the end of the series were still not a member world.
Iraq is not a theocracy. Saying it doesn't make it so :roll:

Also:
In the Deep Space Nine premiere episode "Emissary," Captain Picard informs Benjamin Sisko that one of his tasks as commander of DS9 is to develop a continuing evaluation of Bajor for potential membership in the United Federation of Planets. In the non-canon Deep Space Nine relaunch novels, Bajor finally joins the Federation, with most of the Bajoran Militia being absorbed into Starfleet, and Kira Nerys receives the Starfleet rank of Captain.
Admitadly, we can leave out the none-canon part, but the fact of the matter is they were considering Bajor for membership... even though it was a theocratic state.
No, the British did NOT make India a democracy by force —India's democracy had far more to do with Ghandi and the Congress of India movement than anything worked by the British, who were forced to quit the country after the Second World War broke their empire.
So the native population were able to make their own country a democracy after colonization... this sort of proves my point.
I never said the Highlands were completely isolated, and now you change your argument when you've clearly gotten caught with your pants down. Around here, we call that "moving the goalposts".
You do realize that moving the goal posts doesn't make your argument wrong, it just shows you are bad at arguing. It also shows you are willing to change your argument due to new information.

Of course ANY interferance would be a violation of the prime directive... which is what I am trying to scrap.
Oh, why didn't you say so? This simplifies things drastically!

The solution to effect your goals would be to beam up every single native inhabitant, take their children away, and educate and indoctrinate the children into becoming model 24th century citizens, then let them repopulate the planet as colonists of the Federation. Their backwards parents can live out their lives in relative, yet confined, luxury (maybe a huge space station of holodecks? an isolated planet cleared and prepared for just such a purpose?), and all their descendants will enjoy the benefits of being part of an advanced technological industrial society. The initial emotional trauma suffered by the abductees would surely be trivial compared to the comfort and low death rate of their grandchildren... right?

Let me know if I missed anything.
Why bother taking their kids away? The influence of their peers and schooling is greater than their parents.
User avatar
Patrick Degan
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 14847
Joined: 2002-07-15 08:06am
Location: Orleanian in exile

Re: ONEG video: Hide And Q

Post by Patrick Degan »

Samuel wrote:
Evidence for this contention, please.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_High_G ... eneration)
Hmm.... Your Wikipedia page provides exactly this evidence to "prove" your case:
Wikipedia does not have an article with this exact name. Please search for The High Ground (Star Trek: The Next Generation in Wikipedia to check for alternative titles or spellings.

* Start the The High Ground (Star Trek: The Next Generation article or add a request for it.
* Search for "The High Ground (Star Trek: The Next Generation" in existing articles.
* Look for pages within Wikipedia that link to this title.
So, ummm... What point did you imagine you were proving again, exactly?
And when a retired admiral attempted to violate those guarantees in the Federation constitution, she got smacked down by Starfleet Command. Did you not actually watch the episode?
Drumhead? So they have legal procedure they have to follow... which isn't the same thing as rights or democracy.
They have a constitution, laws with a recognised charter of rights, a judiciary, and an elective president who serves four-year terms and a representative assembly. All canon fact. I don't know how to make the point any clearer to you.
Oh yes it has, no matter how much the apologists for the late war keep trying to say otherwise. The objective of the war was the installation of a US-style secular government. What we got instead is a theocratic Shiite government. And no, Bajor is not a Federation member —remember, they backed off the union and by the end of the series were still not a member world.
Iraq is not a theocracy. Saying it doesn't make it so :roll:
They have enshrined Sharia law in their constitution, and all but 24 seats in the national assembly are held by religious parties. Both the president and the prime minister are members of the two largest religious parties in the country. That makes them theocratic, no matter how much you keep trying to deny the obvious.
In the Deep Space Nine premiere episode "Emissary," Captain Picard informs Benjamin Sisko that one of his tasks as commander of DS9 is to develop a continuing evaluation of Bajor for potential membership in the United Federation of Planets. In the non-canon Deep Space Nine relaunch novels, Bajor finally joins the Federation, with most of the Bajoran Militia being absorbed into Starfleet, and Kira Nerys receives the Starfleet rank of Captain.

Admitadly, we can leave out the none-canon part, but the fact of the matter is they were considering Bajor for membership... even though it was a theocratic state.
Wrong yet again. Bajor's provisional government was secular, consisting of an elective assembly and a First Minister. The Vedek Assembly was not part of the government, even though it held some degree of influence. But the Vedeks did not hold veto power over the government, nor did their members occupy seats in the assembly.
No, the British did NOT make India a democracy by force —India's democracy had far more to do with Ghandi and the Congress of India movement than anything worked by the British, who were forced to quit the country after the Second World War broke their empire.
So the native population were able to make their own country a democracy after colonization... this sort of proves my point.
In what parallel universe? Certainly not in the real world, where the rest of us live.

YOU attempted to put forth India as the example of a successful imposition of a democratic state at gunpoint. When that was shown to be patently false, you once again engage in your goalpost-moving.
I never said the Highlands were completely isolated, and now you change your argument when you've clearly gotten caught with your pants down. Around here, we call that "moving the goalposts".
You do realize that moving the goal posts doesn't make your argument wrong, it just shows you are bad at arguing. It also shows you are willing to change your argument due to new information.
No, it shows not only that your initial argument was wrong, but that you are patently dishonest in the bargain. It's a game which dishonest debators use to keep changing the standard of proof. It's not surprising that you are as ignorant of the definition of this logical fallacy as you have proven to be about history, government, current events, and the canon details of Star Trek you presume to argue as your evidence.
When ballots have fairly and constitutionally decided, there can be no successful appeal back to bullets.
—Abraham Lincoln

People pray so that God won't crush them like bugs.
—Dr. Gregory House

Oil an emergency?! It's about time, Brigadier, that the leaders of this planet of yours realised that to remain dependent upon a mineral slime simply doesn't make sense.
—The Doctor "Terror Of The Zygons" (1975)
User avatar
Patrick Degan
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 14847
Joined: 2002-07-15 08:06am
Location: Orleanian in exile

Re: ONEG video: Hide And Q

Post by Patrick Degan »

Oh, and to further demonstrate how weak your Google-fu actually is, Sammy, you might want to have a quick browse through the actual script to the episode "The High Ground". Picard clearly says in his log entry at the beginning of the episode that Rutia IV is a non-aligned world.

In case the meaning is a bit difficult for you to grasp, it translates out as: "not part of the Federation".

Oh, and BTW, simply because a society is undergoing a civil war, or in this case a domestic terrorist insurrection, does not mean it's "not exactly democratic" either, as far too many examples from history and contemporary events can demonstrate.
When ballots have fairly and constitutionally decided, there can be no successful appeal back to bullets.
—Abraham Lincoln

People pray so that God won't crush them like bugs.
—Dr. Gregory House

Oil an emergency?! It's about time, Brigadier, that the leaders of this planet of yours realised that to remain dependent upon a mineral slime simply doesn't make sense.
—The Doctor "Terror Of The Zygons" (1975)
Samuel
Sith Marauder
Posts: 4750
Joined: 2008-10-23 11:36am

Re: ONEG video: Hide And Q

Post by Samuel »

Fine, I'll admit you are right. Unfortunately, this is completely unrelated to the original argument I was making... about 2 pages ago. I'll try to make it crytal clear so you don't procede to beat around the bush and prove me wrong:P

This is really ironic given that I have repeatedly implied I would be favoring a benign dictatorship, but apparently people consider democracy synonymous with quality of life. I guess Federation Membership requires democracy... which is odd given the overwhelming power of the military in the Federation.

Off topic, but how common are mind control devices in Star Trek?


Anyway, you have six options to deal with the natives.

1 You don't let anyone on or off.

Downside- you have to provide ships to enforce it AND the planet remains a shit hole. People die and suffer due to your inaction.

2 Don't intervene.

Upside- needs no ships or any other costs.

Downside- slavers, pirates, and the planet goes down the tubes into warlordism.

3 Limited trade

Upside- you earn money and get their resources.

Downside- Uninteneded side effects. Central authorities collapse as trade goods are made into weapons... unless they are monopolized by the upper class in which case you help make the society more caste like.

4 Puppet state

Upside- Simple and controlled way to attempt to change the planet.

Downside- Everything you have been yelling about.

5 All at once

Upside- Simple.

Downside- total societal collapse and the need for about 40 thousand to 40 million occupation troops.

6 Genocide

Upside- Solves problem

Downside- Just a wafer thin slice of your soul. That and people finding out about it.

On the subject of democracy, I'm pretty sure you can find a democratic puppet state. After all, they aren't that rare.

As for this
What shitful rubbish you do spew. What is at issue is whether the culture in question actually develops into an advance society by going through the painful growing process entailed in both its technological and social development. Simply give a culture still trapped in primitive mindsets and taboos advanced technology, and it will far more likely use it to wipe itself out. Stage-manage their development every step of the way, and they never become a mature, independent society because they never learn the lessons entailed in that long and painful process. It may be ugly, but the alternatives are worse. Even simply leaving them alone entails the risk that they will still find a way to destroy themselves, but at least their own development is not pre-empted by interference from above, no matter how well-meaning it may be.
I'm pretty sure the concept of culture was invented to side step this process.

Also
This is sort of why cultural meddling, no matter how well-meaning, no matter how carefully the plan was thought out, is far more likely to achieve the opposite of what the intended object was to begin with, with varying levels of disaster in the offing.
So basically, according to you, the best thing to do is let people kill themselves... rather than change things which will cause people to kill themselves. At least in my method, people will die faster and in a significantly shorter amount of time. It took Europe centuries to industrialize and at a horrific human cost. Attempts after them went significantly faster and were less bloody.

I'm sure you will have an angry rebuttal to my mocking of your ethics and changing the goal posts. I can't see how you can defend it though.
User avatar
Patrick Degan
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 14847
Joined: 2002-07-15 08:06am
Location: Orleanian in exile

Re: ONEG video: Hide And Q

Post by Patrick Degan »

Samuel wrote:So basically, according to you, the best thing to do is let people kill themselves... rather than change things which will cause people to kill themselves. At least in my method, people will die faster and in a significantly shorter amount of time. It took Europe centuries to industrialize and at a horrific human cost. Attempts after them went significantly faster and were less bloody.

I'm sure you will have an angry rebuttal to my mocking of your ethics and changing the goal posts. I can't see how you can defend it though.
Nevermind that your method has a demonstrated historical track-record of not working as planned if not ending in disaster. But by all means, continue pretending that you actually have an argument.
When ballots have fairly and constitutionally decided, there can be no successful appeal back to bullets.
—Abraham Lincoln

People pray so that God won't crush them like bugs.
—Dr. Gregory House

Oil an emergency?! It's about time, Brigadier, that the leaders of this planet of yours realised that to remain dependent upon a mineral slime simply doesn't make sense.
—The Doctor "Terror Of The Zygons" (1975)
Samuel
Sith Marauder
Posts: 4750
Joined: 2008-10-23 11:36am

Re: ONEG video: Hide And Q

Post by Samuel »

Patrick Degan wrote:
Samuel wrote:So basically, according to you, the best thing to do is let people kill themselves... rather than change things which will cause people to kill themselves. At least in my method, people will die faster and in a significantly shorter amount of time. It took Europe centuries to industrialize and at a horrific human cost. Attempts after them went significantly faster and were less bloody.

I'm sure you will have an angry rebuttal to my mocking of your ethics and changing the goal posts. I can't see how you can defend it though.
Nevermind that your method has a demonstrated historical track-record of not working as planned if not ending in disaster. But by all means, continue pretending that you actually have an argument.
So you are ignoring the point where doing nothing means MORE people die? It doesn't have to work perfectly, it has to work better.
User avatar
Patrick Degan
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 14847
Joined: 2002-07-15 08:06am
Location: Orleanian in exile

Re: ONEG video: Hide And Q

Post by Patrick Degan »

Samuel wrote:
Patrick Degan wrote:
Samuel wrote:So basically, according to you, the best thing to do is let people kill themselves... rather than change things which will cause people to kill themselves. At least in my method, people will die faster and in a significantly shorter amount of time. It took Europe centuries to industrialize and at a horrific human cost. Attempts after them went significantly faster and were less bloody.

I'm sure you will have an angry rebuttal to my mocking of your ethics and changing the goal posts. I can't see how you can defend it though.
Nevermind that your method has a demonstrated historical track-record of not working as planned if not ending in disaster. But by all means, continue pretending that you actually have an argument.
So you are ignoring the point where doing nothing means MORE people die? It doesn't have to work perfectly, it has to work better.
I'm ignoring nothing —unlike you, whose solution still comes down to you slaughtering natives for their own good.
When ballots have fairly and constitutionally decided, there can be no successful appeal back to bullets.
—Abraham Lincoln

People pray so that God won't crush them like bugs.
—Dr. Gregory House

Oil an emergency?! It's about time, Brigadier, that the leaders of this planet of yours realised that to remain dependent upon a mineral slime simply doesn't make sense.
—The Doctor "Terror Of The Zygons" (1975)
User avatar
Base Delta Zero
Padawan Learner
Posts: 329
Joined: 2005-12-15 07:05pm
Location: High orbit above your homeworld.

Re: ONEG video: Hide And Q

Post by Base Delta Zero »

I'm ignoring nothing —unlike you, whose solution still comes down to you slaughtering natives for their own good.
When did he say anything about slaughtering natives for their own good? And perhaps you haven't noticed how the Iraq war was a massive fuckup (garbage in, garbage out)? Or, say, Japan, which while it may have left a big mess, did ultimately uplift a feudal society into a modern, fairly sophisticated democracy in the space of what, 200 years?
Darth Wong wrote:If the Church did driver training, they would try to get seatbelts outlawed because they aren't 100% effective in preventing fatalities in high-speed car crashes, then they would tell people that driving fast is a sin and chalk up the skyrocketing death toll to God's will. And homosexuals, because homosexuals drive fast.
Peptuck wrote: I don't think magical Borg adaptation can respond effectively to getting punched by a planet.
Junghalli
Sith Acolyte
Posts: 5001
Joined: 2004-12-21 10:06pm
Location: Berkeley, California (USA)

Re: ONEG video: Hide And Q

Post by Junghalli »

Base Delta Zero wrote:When did he say anything about slaughtering natives for their own good?
Let's face it, if the aliens are like humans (and it's Trek, so it's pretty probable that they are) transforming a Midaeval society into a modern one, complete with modern nicities like civil rights and not burning people you think might be witches, is something that's probably going to have to be done over quite a few dead bodies. Think of all the people on a planet like that who would probably fight modernity tooth and nail (think of US fundies, but about a million times worse).

Heck, just think of all the fun you're going to have trying to convince all the kings and warlords to surrender their power to a planetary government. You're probably going to have to end up outright conquering and deposing many of them if you want to pull it off.

Of course you can say the same kind of thing is order of business there anyway, but I'm just pointing out the Space Man's Burden* is not something for people who aren't prepared to get their hands real dirty.

*Yes, I realize the association is kind of incendiary, but you gotta admit the basic conceptual similarity. "We must bring the benighted savages the benefits of modern civilization, for their own good."
User avatar
Patrick Degan
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 14847
Joined: 2002-07-15 08:06am
Location: Orleanian in exile

Re: ONEG video: Hide And Q

Post by Patrick Degan »

Base Delta Zero wrote:
I'm ignoring nothing —unlike you, whose solution still comes down to you slaughtering natives for their own good.
When did he say anything about slaughtering natives for their own good?
Perhaps when he started spewing garbage like this:
At least in my method, people will die faster and in a significantly shorter amount of time.
Exactly what do you propose is the eventual outcome of forcibly occupying a world and subduing its inhabitants so as to civilise them?
And perhaps you haven't noticed how the Iraq war was a massive fuckup (garbage in, garbage out)?
If you'd been paying attention to the discussion at all, which evidently you have not, I did indeed acknowledge that the war was a fuckup as part of the argument that it's logic was based upon a wholly false premise to begin with. The same sort of "logic" Samuel is proposing in this thread.
Or, say, Japan, which while it may have left a big mess, did ultimately uplift a feudal society into a modern, fairly sophisticated democracy in the space of what, 200 years?
Ah, so that somehow makes all the mass death resulting from Japan's wars in pursuit of an imperial destiny fueled by the combination of modern technology with a semifeudal mindset they never learned to shed before we had to burn their island somehow... worth it. Tell that to the Chinese and the Koreans.
When ballots have fairly and constitutionally decided, there can be no successful appeal back to bullets.
—Abraham Lincoln

People pray so that God won't crush them like bugs.
—Dr. Gregory House

Oil an emergency?! It's about time, Brigadier, that the leaders of this planet of yours realised that to remain dependent upon a mineral slime simply doesn't make sense.
—The Doctor "Terror Of The Zygons" (1975)
Samuel
Sith Marauder
Posts: 4750
Joined: 2008-10-23 11:36am

Re: ONEG video: Hide And Q

Post by Samuel »

That was me mocking you. The fact of the matter that complaining people will die under my method is slightly hypocritical, given the will die almost certainly as badly anyway. Even if intervention screws up, the death toll will be a smaller percentage than letting the natives hack and starve each other to death. Remember how pathetically low the life expectancy is? Or the lack of counter measures to disease? Or the fact that despotic empires throughout human history were rated well for stopping people from killing each other?
Exactly what do you propose is the eventual outcome of forcibly occupying a world and subduing its inhabitants so as to civilise them?
Except I have repeatedly advocated using proxies.

If you'd been paying attention to the discussion at all, which evidently you have not, I did indeed acknowledge that the war was a fuckup as part of the argument that it's logic was based upon a wholly false premise to begin with. The same sort of "logic" Samuel is proposing in this thread.
The logic I have been using is that if ou can help people it is morally imperitive that you do so. Your rebuttal seems to be we will screw up... because it hasn't been done before and that the natives have to go through all the shit themselves to learn :roll: You do realize that societies aren't cumulative and that they can learn the wrong lessens? I'm looking at you nationalism.
Ah, so that somehow makes all the mass death resulting from Japan's wars in pursuit of an imperial destiny fueled by the combination of modern technology with a semifeudal mindset they never learned to shed before we had to burn their island somehow... worth it. Tell that to the Chinese and the Koreans.
So the Japanese were using a "semi-feudal mindset", but the Germans were modern? The only difference I can find is the proliferation of war crimes... which Germany matches.

Come to think of it, how is the desire for conquest semi-feudal- EVERYONE was doing that! Did the US suddenly regress to semi-feudalism in the 1890s when we started grabbing colonies?

If Japan hadn't industrialized, it would have ended up like Ethiopia. Which would be bad for Japan. Or, in the analogies case, the people we are helping.
eyl
Jedi Knight
Posts: 714
Joined: 2007-01-30 11:03am
Location: City of Gold and Iron

Re: ONEG video: Hide And Q

Post by eyl »

Samuel wrote:Except I have repeatedly advocated using proxies.
And just how do you think your proxies are going to get into position where they can affect the entire planet? Unless you plan to take over the leadership of every single city-state and tribe, you're looking at massive wars of conquest.
Samuel
Sith Marauder
Posts: 4750
Joined: 2008-10-23 11:36am

Re: ONEG video: Hide And Q

Post by Samuel »

eyl wrote:
Samuel wrote:Except I have repeatedly advocated using proxies.
And just how do you think your proxies are going to get into position where they can affect the entire planet? Unless you plan to take over the leadership of every single city-state and tribe, you're looking at massive wars of conquest.
I believe I already stated that. Should I be more explicit? My plan is to use a proxy, have them industrialize, conquer the planet, then attempt to industrialize the entire planet. If someone has a plan that requires less resources and works well, I'll use it instead.
eyl
Jedi Knight
Posts: 714
Joined: 2007-01-30 11:03am
Location: City of Gold and Iron

Re: ONEG video: Hide And Q

Post by eyl »

Samuel wrote:
eyl wrote:
Samuel wrote:Except I have repeatedly advocated using proxies.
And just how do you think your proxies are going to get into position where they can affect the entire planet? Unless you plan to take over the leadership of every single city-state and tribe, you're looking at massive wars of conquest.
I believe I already stated that. Should I be more explicit? My plan is to use a proxy, have them industrialize, conquer the planet, then attempt to industrialize the entire planet. If someone has a plan that requires less resources and works well, I'll use it instead.
And do you think conquest of that scale can be done without massive loss of life and misery (you're talking abut a planetary-scale war, remember)
Samuel
Sith Marauder
Posts: 4750
Joined: 2008-10-23 11:36am

Re: ONEG video: Hide And Q

Post by Samuel »

Of course not. I think it will be less costly than the number of small scale conflicts that will rage if the planet isn't unified though. Of course, you could do a large amount of the conquesting relatively bloodless when you get people to recognize your overwhelming numbers and firepower.

Besides, that isn't the most costly part- I'm pretty sure industrialization will kill more people, even with attempts to soften it.
eyl
Jedi Knight
Posts: 714
Joined: 2007-01-30 11:03am
Location: City of Gold and Iron

Re: ONEG video: Hide And Q

Post by eyl »

Samuel wrote:Of course not. I think it will be less costly than the number of small scale conflicts that will rage if the planet isn't unified though. Of course, you could do a large amount of the conquesting relatively bloodless when you get people to recognize your overwhelming numbers and firepower.

Besides, that isn't the most costly part- I'm pretty sure industrialization will kill more people, even with attempts to soften it.
What overwhelming numbers and firepower? If yo're setting up a puppet regime, you're not going to give them troops (as that would kind of void the entire point of using puppets in the first place) - at most, you'd give them some technology (probably not too advanced from what they currently have, as they need to be able to manufacture it)
Samuel
Sith Marauder
Posts: 4750
Joined: 2008-10-23 11:36am

Re: ONEG video: Hide And Q

Post by Samuel »

eyl wrote:
Samuel wrote:Of course not. I think it will be less costly than the number of small scale conflicts that will rage if the planet isn't unified though. Of course, you could do a large amount of the conquesting relatively bloodless when you get people to recognize your overwhelming numbers and firepower.

Besides, that isn't the most costly part- I'm pretty sure industrialization will kill more people, even with attempts to soften it.
What overwhelming numbers and firepower? If yo're setting up a puppet regime, you're not going to give them troops (as that would kind of void the entire point of using puppets in the first place) - at most, you'd give them some technology (probably not too advanced from what they currently have, as they need to be able to manufacture it)
Agricultural and medical improvements will make their population boom, and give them cannons and they can reduce fortresses in days that would otherwise take years. Work fast enough and no one will be able to develop counter measures.
Post Reply