The size of starfleet

TheDarkling · Post by **TheDarkling** » 2002-07-30 09:39pm

The health and safety check is to check the ship only they arent allowed to actually search for contraband or anything else and any disease checking can be done at the place of arrival.

Picard was at a very remote area of the neutral zone when that happened (conatct with SF wasnt in realtime like it is in other occurances) and he also wouldnt want to take a large fleet in with him because that would have been an invite to war (he wasnt sure if the defector could be trusted).

Thats why he took Klingon ships with him - because if it was a lie he didnt look like an invasion force but if it was a trap he had back up.

Also the forces that were part of Picards task force werent going into battle but were setting up a blockade to prevent Romulans aiding the Duras family.
As I have said at this point in time SF is still pure exploration but by the end of Voy it seems they have begun to reawaken their military program.

Admiral Piett · Post by **Admiral Piett** » 2002-07-31 02:58am

Remember that in space borders are surfaces instead of the lines we have on Earth.Which means your ships will be spread thinly on a surface that may be of thousands of squared light years.So I do not find unreasonable that only 20 ships of a fleet of 4000 could be gathered in a short amount of time.

LMSx · Post by **LMSx** » 2002-07-31 03:30am

and any disease checking can be done at the place of arrival.

So by that logic, a quarentine center must be set up on every single planet. So which takes more manpower, putting a few ships and warp signature detectors on the border (like the U.S border) to track crossers, or setting up fully staffed quarentine centers on every single planet in the Federation?

TheDarkling · Post by **TheDarkling** » 2002-07-31 03:40am

LMSx: As opposed to using 100s of ships to patrol a friendly border? or limiting border crossings to certain areas and thus adding onto travel times.

Your plan requires one of the above and it also requires lots of sensor devices etc on the border of Klingon space (not a wise idea to annoy those klingons).

Remember SF has its biofilters (which can handle most diseases) and a quick tricorder scan at an airlock would detect anyone docking.

You think that every planet wont have a medical facility anyway - someone has a heart attack, lets take them on a three day trip to the nearest hospital.
Any medical center of any worth will have the ability to set up an isolation ward (it takes a forcefield thats all).

LMSx · Post by **LMSx** » 2002-07-31 04:08am

Your plan requires one of the above and it also requires lots of sensor devices etc on the border of Klingon space (not a wise idea to annoy those klingons).

Oh, no, we wouldn't want to annoy the Klingons with SENSOR DEVICES IN OUR OWN SPACE.

Remember SF has its biofilters (which can handle most diseases) and a quick tricorder scan at an airlock would detect anyone docking.

I think we're thinking of different things here. My idea is to set up sensor devices that moniter illegal crossings and keeps 10 or 20 high-speed ships on the ready to intercept. I'm not talking about searching every ship, but giving a profile and name. If the info given doesn't match a scan by the probe, then a flag goes up and a ship heads off to investigate, with a mandatory bioscan by the intercepting ship.

Assuming that Federation sensor technology is as good as claimed, and as many ships as believed, then twenty ships shouldn't be a big drain on their resources.

Patrick Ogaard · Post by **Patrick Ogaard** » 2002-07-31 05:13am

For standard patrolling and health checks along interstellar borders of the Federation, the Danube-class runabouts would seem to be the obvious choice, backed up by a few cruisers capable of maintaining high warp and countering minor incursions. Individual runabouts are apparently somewhat slow at warp, but that can be balanced out by numbers and placement.

A runabout represents a trivial resource expenditure when compared to a full-fledged starship, and requires a comparatively small crew. Even fully loaded with a flight crew of 4, a boarding/inspection party of 6, and 2 supernumeraries as reserves for boarding and relief for the flight crew, a patrol and customs runabout should not need a complement of more than 12 persons. Compare that to a Miranda-class ship, which is usually assumed to need a crew of 150-250 (220 according to the highly apocryphal DS9 Technical Manual). In effect, one could deploy 10 to 20 runabouts with the same number of personnel as needed for one Miranda-class starship. With the commitment of personnel equivalent to perhaps two small cruisers, Starfleet could deploy a border patrol force of 20 to 40 runabouts. Were Starfleet instead to commit personnel equivalent to a Galaxy-class starship, it could deploy nearly a hundred runabouts for patrol duty. One important point is, of course, that even a hundred runabouts would not require the same level of resource commitment as a single Galaxy-class starship, not to mention the fact that a Galaxy-classs starship can not be in fifty places at the same time, nor the fact that individual patrol runabouts can be easily replaced if lost. Also, families and rest facilities can be kept at secure starbases instead of being carted through space in starships, ready to explode at a moment's notice.

The simple fact that such a force is apparently not in place along any of the Federation's borders, not even being alluded to, is strange. Combined with sensor platforms, a starbase or two and a few well-placed cruisers, such a border patrol force would make even a fairly large border zone difficult to slip through. That in itself may explain why such forces are not mentioned: with them, writers would have to come up with reasonably clever and sensible plots.

Isolder74 · Post by **Isolder74** » 2002-07-31 02:23pm

Patrick Ogaard wrote:For standard patrolling and health checks along interstellar borders of the Federation, the Danube-class runabouts would seem to be the obvious choice, backed up by a few cruisers capable of maintaining high warp and countering minor incursions. Individual runabouts are apparently somewhat slow at warp, but that can be balanced out by numbers and placement.

A runabout represents a trivial resource expenditure when compared to a full-fledged starship, and requires a comparatively small crew. Even fully loaded with a flight crew of 4, a boarding/inspection party of 6, and 2 supernumeraries as reserves for boarding and relief for the flight crew, a patrol and customs runabout should not need a complement of more than 12 persons. Compare that to a Miranda-class ship, which is usually assumed to need a crew of 150-250 (220 according to the highly apocryphal DS9 Technical Manual). In effect, one could deploy 10 to 20 runabouts with the same number of personnel as needed for one Miranda-class starship. With the commitment of personnel equivalent to perhaps two small cruisers, Starfleet could deploy a border patrol force of 20 to 40 runabouts. Were Starfleet instead to commit personnel equivalent to a Galaxy-class starship, it could deploy nearly a hundred runabouts for patrol duty. One important point is, of course, that even a hundred runabouts would not require the same level of resource commitment as a single Galaxy-class starship, not to mention the fact that a Galaxy-classs starship can not be in fifty places at the same time, nor the fact that individual patrol runabouts can be easily replaced if lost. Also, families and rest facilities can be kept at secure starbases instead of being carted through space in starships, ready to explode at a moment's notice.

The simple fact that such a force is apparently not in place along any of the Federation's borders, not even being alluded to, is strange. Combined with sensor platforms, a starbase or two and a few well-placed cruisers, such a border patrol force would make even a fairly large border zone difficult to slip through. That in itself may explain why such forces are not mentioned: with them, writers would have to come up with reasonably clever and sensible plots.

this would nicely resemble the US Coat Guard!

Patrick Ogaard · Post by **Patrick Ogaard** » 2002-07-31 02:38pm

Isolder74 wrote:

this would nicely resemble the US Coat Guard!

Exactly.

It is the same concept, merely applied to three dimensions.

Doomriser · Post by **Doomriser** » 2002-07-31 02:53pm

Darkling - Check ST:6 again. Did they remove the Klingon border patrol ships or simply the outposts? I remember talk of "dismantling starfleet" (which they obviously didn't). IIRC what happened was the removal of the neutral zone and the border outposts, but not the starships.

TheDarkling · Post by **TheDarkling** » 2002-07-31 03:26pm

Doomriser: Why dont you watch it again, actually I will save you the trouble.

"the dismantling of our space stations and starbase along the neutral zone"

The above is what you are talking about, however the scene then continues.

"Bill are we talking about moth balling the starfleet"
"im sure that our exploration and scientific programs would be unaffected"

Seems like the military is going the way of the Dodo.

"and if we dismantle the fleet we would be defenseless against an aggressive species with a foot hold on our territory"

Admiral Cartwright seems to think the fleet is being dismantled.

It seems clear that at this point SF gets rid of its military wing and only has its science/diplomatic programs continue.

This accounts for why at the start of TNG the Feds have no real military like they did during TOS however by he end of VOY SF has begun to gravitate back towards having a miltary presence in its miltary.

I do however think the run about border patrol seems reasonable, after all run abuots used to be used to patrol the badlands etc so it sems to fall within SF procedure and it wouldnt require a huge investemtn for little in return.

Doomriser · Post by **Doomriser** » 2002-07-31 05:05pm

Darkling, what's your point? You've shown that, yes, the Federation doesn't have any defensive installations along the Klingon border. You've shown that they've trimmed warships out of the budget. But the ships rounded up against Duras were combination scientific/military vessels. So you've shown that all they could round up in that most strategically vital area of space were second-tier vessels.

Stravo · Post by **Stravo** » 2002-07-31 05:13pm

Does anyone have cannon figures or even guesstimates on the size of Starfleet in terms of personnel?? Because if you assume a 3,000 starship fleet (many people in here seem to think that is on the low side) and an average of say 400 crewmen per starship (using the OS figures for the Constellation class - I think TNG craft require more crew but lets say 400 as an average and we can debate this number if you wish - then the math would be as follows:
3,000 starships X 400 crew = 1.2 Million crewmen. That is not counting facilities, starbases, shipyards, etc.

My question becomes perhaps starfleet doesn't have that many ships BECAUSE they don't have the crew to man the starships. Maybe we've been putting the carriage before the horse in these debates.

Thoughts?

TheDarkling · Post by **TheDarkling** » 2002-07-31 05:13pm

Doomriser: No one has yet to prove that the Feds have any reason to patrol that area of space at all - its friendly territory they have other areas to patrol.
Thus they could only gather minimal forces becaus they dont consider that area important enough to place Federation ships their in force.
The most probable solution is Patrick's runabout fleet if they patrol that b order at all.
In conclusion my point is exactly that which I stated in my first post on the matter - you cannot infer the Federations fleet strength on the amount of ships along an unimportamnt border especially before the Federation began to bulk up during DS9.

Stravo · Post by **Stravo** » 2002-07-31 05:15pm

Darkling would an appropriate analogy for your postulation that the Federation does not patrol its borders with the Klingons be the US border with Canada which has recently come under scrutiny for being woefully undermanned??

Doomriser · Post by **Doomriser** » 2002-07-31 05:15pm

In the DS9 episode "The Die is Cast"

Sisko asks Eddington 'I hear that Starfleet is sending a substantial task
force." to which Eddington replies, 'That's right. 9 ships.'
'9 ships,' ponders Sisko, who figures that DS9 will then be protected by enough ships that he can send the Defiant in a wild goose chase in the GQ
(this is paraphrased, I don't have the exact quotes)

So 9 ships is a "substantial task force" for Starfleet.

Doomriser · Post by **Doomriser** » 2002-07-31 05:18pm

Correction:

the exact quotes are as follows:

"Commander Eddington, am I correct in assuming that Starfleet is sending
substantial *reinforcements* to this sector?"

To which Eddington replies:

"Yes, sir. A task force of nine starships is due to arrive tomorrow."

So 9 starships are "substantial reinforcements."

Doomriser · Post by **Doomriser** » 2002-07-31 05:22pm

TheDarkling wrote:Doomriser: No one has yet to prove that the Feds have any reason to patrol that area of space at all - its friendly territory they have other areas to patrol.
Thus they could only gather minimal forces becaus they dont consider that area important enough to place Federation ships their in force.
The most probable solution is Patrick's runabout fleet if they patrol that b order at all.
In conclusion my point is exactly that which I stated in my first post on the matter - you cannot infer the Federations fleet strength on the amount of ships along an unimportamnt border especially before the Federation began to bulk up during DS9.

What I said was that the border is going to be a critical flashpoint. As you said, it was the Klingon/Romulan/Federation border. The whole quadrant depends on a balance of power between the 3. The Klingons and Romulans have fought before, the Klingons and Federation have fought before, and the Romulans and Federation have fought before. Tensions are high between the Feds and Roms and between the Klingons and Romulans. If Starfleet was going to bulk up patrols ANYWHERE it would be that very border!

TheDarkling · Post by **TheDarkling** » 2002-07-31 05:27pm

It wasnt the Fed/Rom/Klin border - Picard went to SF and asked for forces which he then took into klingon space and then took those forces to the Kling/Rom border - maybe SF for some crazy reason expected the Klingon to guard its own border with the Romulans and didnt leave ships sitting inside Federation space incase the Klingons couldnt handle the job.

Doomriser · Post by **Doomriser** » 2002-07-31 05:33pm

Now, let's push aside retarded Trekkie speculation and look at the canon facts (courtesy of Darth Wong's database):

Season 1, Ep# 16: "11001001"

STARBASE COMPUTER: The USS Enterprise has departed in excess of warp one.
...
GEORDI: What do we do?
DATA: Which is the nearest Starfleet vessel?
QUINTEROS: The Trieste.
DATA: I know the Trieste. Too small, too slow.
QUINTEROS: Plus it's sixty-six hours away.

Size and Scope: their forces are spread so thin that the nearest starship to this important starbase is nearly three days away, and it's a second-tier vessel.

Season 2, Ep# 46: "Emissary"

DATA: Apparently there were no starships available at Starbase one five three. The emissary is aboard a class eight probe.
RIKER: A class eight probe is just over two meters long!
PICARD: True, Number One. But if the sensors and transmitters were removed and life-support installed, there would be just enough space for one person.
RIKER: And those probes are designed to go warp nine.

Size and Scope: they were forced to resort to this drastic measure due to a lack of starships.

Season 3, Ep# 49: "Ensigns of Command"

PICARD: Three weeks. Starfleet is profuse in their apologies, but it will still be three weeks.
RIKER: Until?
PICARD: Until the arrival of a colony transport ship equipped with dedicated personnel shuttles.
RIKER: We can't wait three weeks.
PICARD: The Sheliak must agree to extend our deadline ... if they plan to settle Tau Cygna Five two days from now...
RIKER: One of their ships must already be en route.

Size and Scope: even in an emergency situation where 15,000 lives are at stake, Starfleet can't get a colony transport ship to Tau Cygna Five in less than three weeks. This gives us an idea of the size of their transport fleet, since it is obviously quite thinly spread.

Season 3, Ep# 51: "Survivors"

PICARD VO: Captain's log, Stardate 43042.3. We are cautiously entering the Delta Rana star system three days after receiving a distress call from the Federation colony on its ninth planet. The garbled transmission reported the colony under attack from an unidentified spacecraft. Our mission is one of rescue and -- if necessary -- confrontation with a hostile force.

Size and Scope: even when one of their colonies is under attack, the Federation can't even get a single ship into the system for three days. This is the state of their military readiness; it's a good thing they're better at diplomacy than fighting.

Season 4, Ep# 75: "Best of Both Worlds Part 2"

SHELBY: We'll have the fleet back up in less than a year.

Size and Scope: Shelby expects to be able to recover from their losses in less than one year. We don't know how many of the ships at Wolf 359 were salvageable (the Borg do leave ships in salvageable condition once they're disabled, if the battle in STFC is any indication), but if we assume that none of them were salvageable, this would mean the Federation is capable of building around 40 ships a year.

Given the average sizes of the ships at Wolf 359 (which were smaller than GCS's), this would mean that the Federation's shipbuilding capability amounts to the equivalent of less than two Star Destroyers.

Season 4, Ep# 82: "Future Imperfect"

TROI: I sense no such dishonesty in Tomalak. He is sincere in his desire for peace. He wants this alliance. There is no cause for concern.
RIKER: No cause for concern? We're talking about revealing the location of Outpost Twenty-Three, the key to all our Neutral Zone defenses.

Size and Scope: this is an elaborate holographic deception in which Riker has unwittingly found himself, so nothing that the others say can be trusted, but Riker himself is still real. He honestly believes that a single outpost is the key to the entire Federation Neutral Zone defense system, so it seems likely that this is actually the case

Season 4, Ep# 86: "The Wounded"

ADMIRAL HADEN: We've confirmed the report, Captain. It was the starship
Phoenix... under the command of Benjamin Maxwell.
...
ADMIRAL HADEN: The station he destroyed was in sector 21505 -- you're the nearest starship. We want you to go in and find him.
PICARD: Will the Cardassians cooperate... ?
ADMIRAL HADEN: They've granted you safe passage... We've agreed that you'll take along a delegation of observers as a show of good faith. Jean-Luc... I don't have to tell you the Federation is not prepared for a new sustained conflict. You must preserve the peace... no matter what the cost. Haden out.

Size and Scope: the loss of 39 warships at Wolf 359 has left the Federation incapable of holding its own in a war with the Cardassians, hence Admiral Haden's insistence that Picard somehow find a way to keep the peace.

Season 5, Ep# 101: "Redemption Part 2"

PICARD VO: Captain's log, stardate 45021.3. Convincing Starfleet Command to establish a blockade was relatively painless. Implementing that plan is proving more troublesome.
RIKER: Starfleet is stretched pretty thin across the quadrant. There are only twelve ships within one day's travel of this position.
GEORDI: The only other ships available are either in spacedock for repairs or still under construction. Most of them don't even have full crews yet.
RIKER: But we could probably pick up seven... maybe eight more ships.

Size and Scope: Starfleet can't muster more than a couple of dozen ships for a critical situation at the Romulan/Klingon border.

Given the strategic importance and potential-flashpoint nature of the Federation's borders with the Romulan and Klingon empires, it seems highly unlikely that most of their forces are kept very far away. Therefore, it seems reasonable to conclude that their strategic weakness must be due to the loss of 39 ships at Wolf 359.

Obviously, their forces were such that the loss of those ships was a crucial blow, and it's really a matter of luck and careful diplomacy that their enemies never took advantage.

Season 5, Ep# 109: "A Matter of Time"

PICARD VO: Captain's log, stardate 45333.3. The Enterprise is on its way to Penthara Four where a type C asteroid has struck an unpopulated continent. The resulting dust cloud could very well create a phenomenon not unlike the nuclear winters of 21st century Earth. Commander La Forge has begun work on a plan that would counteract the devastation.
GEORDI: I'm afraid the numbers coming in are already indicating climatic changes, sir.
RIKER: What kind of drop can we expect?
DATA: If the Pentharan spheral forecasts are correct, ten to twelve degrees Celsius within the first ten days.
...
GEORDI: Less than twenty percent of your normal sunlight is getting through that dust, Doctor. If we can hold enough heat in with the CO2, it should give the planet time to mend itself.

Size and Scope: the Federation couldn't muster a starship to intercept and destroy a moderate-yield asteroid before it hit a populated planet? Apathy is a possible explanation, but it seems unlikely. It seems more likely that they just didn't have the ships or the speed to get there in time

Season 6, Ep# 136: "Chain of Command Part 1"

NECHAYEV: We've decided to send the Enterprise to meet with a Cardassian representative and open talks. We're hoping that the presence of the Federation flagship on the border will send a message to their leadership about how seriously we view this situation.

Size and Scope: a single warship is considered an important show of strength. Contrast this with the Trade Federation blockade of Naboo, in which thousands of blockading warships were dismissed by Qui-Gon Jinn as a "trivial" trade dispute.

Season 6, Ep# 137: "Chain of Command Part 2"

JELLICO: Starfleet now believes the Cardassians are preparing to invade Minos Korva. That will not be allowed to happen. The Sutherland, the Berlin, and the Aries have been dispatched to this sector. But they're still three days away. Until they arrive, it's up to us.

Size and Scope: it will take three days for Starfleet to reinforce the Enterprise at Minos Korva ... with a puny force of 3 ships.

Season 6, Ep# 152: "Descent Part 1"

PICARD VO: Captain's Log: Stardate 46984.6 No additional Borg attacks have been reported in the past two days. However, Starfleet has dispatched Admiral Nechayev to take command in this sector in preparation for a possible Borg invasion.
NECHAYEV: There will be fifteen starships in this sector by the day after tomorrow. The Gorkon will be my flagship. You'll have command of task force three, consisting of the Enterprise, the Crazy Horse and the Agamemnon.

Size and Scope: the Federation's response to a potential Borg incursion is just 15 ships, which will take two days to arrive (and they've already had two days to gather their forces, after the first attack). This indicates the state in which the previous Borg attack left them.

Since they already know that a single Borg ship can dust 40 ships without breaking a sweat, and they still bring only 15 ships to the table, the number of ships was clearly limited by their resources, not by a deliberate choice.

Season 7, Ep# 177: "All Good Things"

NAKAMURA: I'm initiating a fleetwide Yellow Alert. Starfleet intelligence has
picked up some disturbing reports from the Romulan Empire. It appears that at least thirty Warbirds have been pulled from other assignments and are heading for the Neutral Zone.
PICARD: Is there any indication why they would make such a blatantly aggressive move?
NAKAMURA: Our operatives on Romulus have indicated that there appears to be something happening in the Neutral Zone -- specifically, in the Devron System. Our own long range scans have picked up some kind of spatial anomaly in the area, but we can't tell what it is.
PICARD: What are our orders?
NAKAMURA: This is a delicate situation. I'm deploying fifteen starships along our side of the Neutral Zone. I want you to go there as well -- see if you can find out what's going on in the Devron System.

Size and Scope: the entire Federation is put on high alert because of the movement of just thirty Romulan warbirds. The Federation military response is just fifteen ships (which means they're heavily outgunned, but they're probably still licking their wounds from Wolf 359).

Inescapable conclusion:

STARFLEET IS PUNY AND THINLY STRETCHED!
In DS9 it took them years to muster their ships together and the largest fleet that they could assemble was 600 ships, including fighters.

Patrick Ogaard · Post by **Patrick Ogaard** » 2002-07-31 05:47pm

Stravo wrote:Does anyone have cannon figures or even guesstimates on the size of Starfleet in terms of personnel?? Because if you assume a 3,000 starship fleet (many people in here seem to think that is on the low side) and an average of say 400 crewmen per starship (using the OS figures for the Constellation class - I think TNG craft require more crew but lets say 400 as an average and we can debate this number if you wish - then the math would be as follows:
3,000 starships X 400 crew = 1.2 Million crewmen. That is not counting facilities, starbases, shipyards, etc.

My question becomes perhaps starfleet doesn't have that many ships BECAUSE they don't have the crew to man the starships. Maybe we've been putting the carriage before the horse in these debates.

Thoughts?

I'm not about to dig the episodes out right this minute, as it's rather late in my neck of the woods, but here are some pointers:

1. Check out the TNG episode Datalore. I believe Data talks to Lore about Data's Starfleet career, and I believe there was mention of how long Data spent at Starfleet Academy. That would be good indication of how long it would take to cycle a class through the Academy in peacetime.

2. Apparently, ALL Starfleet officers go to Starfleet Academy in San Francisco, so the total number of new officers available each year would be limited by the maximum class/year size the academy can handle. Those new officers would have to be sufficient to replace normal personnel attrition and wartime losses, putting a definite limit on the maximum size of the corps of officers.

3. The TNG episode The Drumhead (I think) features an interview with a half-Romulan Enterprise-D crewman accused of sabotage. Specifically, Picard asks the crewman why the fellow did not take the full Academy course but instead opted for the shortened regimen for crewmen training. There should be an indication of how much time crewmen spend in training before being shipped out. The trick then would be to figure out how many crewmen the Academy can cycle through, especially in wartime.

It should be awfully rough, but someone good at estimates and calculations should be able to arrive at rough upper and lower limits. Starfleet can not maintain more ships and bases than it can produce officers and crewmen to operate them.

Starfleet's training programs seem to be incredibly centralized and therefore vulnerable. Had the Breen dropped one really big antimatter or fusion bomb on San Francisco, they would have wiped out Starfleet Command and Starfleet Academy, and likely the Federation President and Starfleet Medical and various other Starfleet branch HQs as well.

Doomriser · Post by **Doomriser** » 2002-07-31 06:07pm

In Datalore, Data explained that it takes 4 years to graduate from Starfleet Academy plus several additional years in the Lieutenant ranks in order to become Data's rank. Sadly, IIRC I had more detailed information and sent it to Darth Wong, but used his "E-mail me" form so I don't have a personal record of what I sent.

Stravo · Post by **Stravo** » 2002-07-31 06:21pm

Patrick Ogaard wrote:
Stravo wrote:Does anyone have cannon figures or even guesstimates on the size of Starfleet in terms of personnel?? Because if you assume a 3,000 starship fleet (many people in here seem to think that is on the low side) and an average of say 400 crewmen per starship (using the OS figures for the Constellation class - I think TNG craft require more crew but lets say 400 as an average and we can debate this number if you wish - then the math would be as follows:
3,000 starships X 400 crew = 1.2 Million crewmen. That is not counting facilities, starbases, shipyards, etc.

My question becomes perhaps starfleet doesn't have that many ships BECAUSE they don't have the crew to man the starships. Maybe we've been putting the carriage before the horse in these debates.

Thoughts?
I'm not about to dig the episodes out right this minute, as it's rather late in my neck of the woods, but here are some pointers:

1. Check out the TNG episode Datalore. I believe Data talks to Lore about Data's Starfleet career, and I believe there was mention of how long Data spent at Starfleet Academy. That would be good indication of how long it would take to cycle a class through the Academy in peacetime.

2. Apparently, ALL Starfleet officers go to Starfleet Academy in San Francisco, so the total number of new officers available each year would be limited by the maximum class/year size the academy can handle. Those new officers would have to be sufficient to replace normal personnel attrition and wartime losses, putting a definite limit on the maximum size of the corps of officers.

3. The TNG episode The Drumhead (I think) features an interview with a half-Romulan Enterprise-D crewman accused of sabotage. Specifically, Picard asks the crewman why the fellow did not take the full Academy course but instead opted for the shortened regimen for crewmen training. There should be an indication of how much time crewmen spend in training before being shipped out. The trick then would be to figure out how many crewmen the Academy can cycle through, especially in wartime.

It should be awfully rough, but someone good at estimates and calculations should be able to arrive at rough upper and lower limits. Starfleet can not maintain more ships and bases than it can produce officers and crewmen to operate them.

Starfleet's training programs seem to be incredibly centralized and therefore vulnerable. Had the Breen dropped one really big antimatter or fusion bomb on San Francisco, they would have wiped out Starfleet Command and Starfleet Academy, and likely the Federation President and Starfleet Medical and various other Starfleet branch HQs as well.

So when you start digging deeper, how in the world can they field 1.2 million crew? If the academy is the only way to get officers and I'm pretty sure that it is cannon that all officers MUST go through the academy and there is only one in San Fran....I think we have a problem here with the 3,000 starship fleet. How big can an academy class be, a few hundred, MAYBE a thousand?? Things are looking mighty sketchy for a big fleet aren't they?

Doomriser · Post by **Doomriser** » 2002-07-31 06:28pm

The loss of 11,000 personnel at Wolf 359 was considered to be a major defeat.

Master of Ossus · Post by **Master of Ossus** » 2002-07-31 06:29pm

I don't think that lack of personnel is the problem with SF. Remember that in BoBW they were able to re-commission several ships, including an old Constitution class ship. This indicates that they have space-worthy personnel ready to be called up in a moment's notice. I think that their industrial capacity is very weak, and that is the limiting factor on their fleet strength--not a lack of personnel.

Isolder74 · Post by **Isolder74** » 2002-07-31 06:30pm

Doomriser wrote:The loss of 11,000 personnel at Wolf 359 was considered to be a major defeat.

and considering some of the ships used they may have included fresh graduates of new recrutes