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Posted: 2004-08-03 10:15am
by fgalkin
Durandal wrote:
Wicked Pilot wrote:
Gandalf wrote:Maybe you swing that way and don't know it?
So I played a little intermural soccer in college, IT WAS COLLEGE, WE ALL EXPERIMENT IN COLLEGE! It doesn't mean I'm a soccer player!
It's okay. We soccer players know that you ran away because you couldn't take playing a physical sport that doesn't protect you with 300 pounds of pads.
Not to mention a sport that doesn't consist of oh, 30 seconds of activly doing something, followed by 10 minutes of standing and grunting. :P

P.S. All hail Russia, the true champion of Europe! :D

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin

Posted: 2004-08-03 11:04am
by SWPIGWANG
bah, starcraft is the superior sport.

I mean my mouse speed is now at 70 action per minute, take that. :P

Posted: 2004-08-03 11:05am
by irishmick79
I think soccer will slowly start to catch on in the United States. Soccer youth leagues are picking up steam, and there are a lot of kids coming through those leagues who really enjoy the game and will probably pay attention to what happens in the pro soccer league here. Once Major League Soccer is able to develop star players and keep them, I think the americans will really embrace soccer. I don't know if it will be as big as baseball or football here, but it certainly could be as big as basketball or hockey.

Posted: 2004-08-03 11:11am
by Rye
Col. Crackpot wrote:speaking as a former soccer player (silly british bastards calling it football) i would have to say it is indeed not 'gay'. Concussions and bloody noses are phun!
Yeah, imagine a sport where you use your feet with a ball being called football. "Soccer" doesnn't even mean anything (actually, this isn't quite true, it's supposed to mean "association football"), it had to be named that because americans were too unoriginal to think of a new name for armoured rugby. Yeah, a game where you pick up a ball and run with it really makes sense being called "football".

Let alone how it existed since the middle ages with a pig bladder being kicked around, centuries before your country even existed. :P

Posted: 2004-08-03 11:16am
by VF5SS
SirNitram wrote: ...if you're an American and think Football is called Soccer.
The Japanese call it Soccer too. =D

Posted: 2004-08-03 12:44pm
by Boyish-Tigerlilly
Soccer was really big at my school. lots of soccer jocks.

Posted: 2004-08-03 01:26pm
by CDiehl
I think the reason soccer doesn't catch on in the US is threefold.

First, we have more access to sporting equipment than most other countries. Just about everyone in this country has had a baseball bat and glove, a hockey stick, tennis racket and various balls. We also have lots of publicly available places at which to play sports, such as baseball diamonds, basketball and tennis courts, and golf courses or driving ranges. Even when such things are out of reach, we can find ways to improvise. Also, with the ability to improvise new variations on games, we invent entirely new games.

Second, we tend to prefer throwing or catching a ball to kicking it. Baseball, football and basketball all have lots of throwing and catching in them.

Third, we love statistics. We love games with lots of things to keep track of, and our favorite games give us plenty. I think it's because watching a game is too passive for us, so we find ways to be involved. Soccer does no offer much in that area other than the score and the penalties. Maybe when the pay-by-play starts mentioning how the ball is being moved and how often shots are taken from each side of the net, soccer will pick up.

Posted: 2004-08-03 02:24pm
by Slartibartfast
Another reason "soccer" doesn't catch in the US, is that it's an international game, loved everywhere, and the US has always preferred to be more isolationist. So there.

Posted: 2004-08-03 03:00pm
by Lord Pounder
Slartibartfast wrote:Another reason "soccer" doesn't catch in the US, is that it's an international game, loved everywhere, and the US has always preferred to be more isolationist. So there.
Yeah because how dare a word cup involve the rest of the world :P.

The real reason Soccer won't catch on is because yanks anre crap at it and like a spoiled child ignore what they suck at.

Posted: 2004-08-03 03:02pm
by Captain Cyran
Lord Pounder wrote:
Slartibartfast wrote:Another reason "soccer" doesn't catch in the US, is that it's an international game, loved everywhere, and the US has always preferred to be more isolationist. So there.
Yeah because how dare a word cup involve the rest of the world :P.

The real reason Soccer won't catch on is because yanks anre crap at it and like a spoiled child ignore what they suck at.
Pardon me, how far did the American team make it for the cup in I believe it was 2002? :P :D

Posted: 2004-08-03 03:08pm
by Lord Pounder
Captain_Cyran wrote:
Lord Pounder wrote:
Slartibartfast wrote:Another reason "soccer" doesn't catch in the US, is that it's an international game, loved everywhere, and the US has always preferred to be more isolationist. So there.
Yeah because how dare a word cup involve the rest of the world :P.

The real reason Soccer won't catch on is because yanks anre crap at it and like a spoiled child ignore what they suck at.
Pardon me, how far did the American team make it for the cup in I believe it was 2002? :P :D
Quarter finals IIRC. However they where jammy shits to evan have qualified that year. My point still stands America is uninterested in a sport they'll never win.

Posted: 2004-08-03 03:09pm
by Col. Crackpot
Lord Pounder wrote:
Slartibartfast wrote:Another reason "soccer" doesn't catch in the US, is that it's an international game, loved everywhere, and the US has always preferred to be more isolationist. So there.
Yeah because how dare a word cup involve the rest of the world :P.

The real reason Soccer won't catch on is because yanks anre crap at it and like a spoiled child ignore what they suck at.
and to think we bitchslapped Portugal and Mexico in the aformentioned worldwide tounament we pretty much ignore. Imagine if we actually gave a shit. :lol:

Posted: 2004-08-03 03:12pm
by Captain Cyran
Col. Crackpot wrote:
Lord Pounder wrote:
Slartibartfast wrote:Another reason "soccer" doesn't catch in the US, is that it's an international game, loved everywhere, and the US has always preferred to be more isolationist. So there.
Yeah because how dare a word cup involve the rest of the world :P.

The real reason Soccer won't catch on is because yanks anre crap at it and like a spoiled child ignore what they suck at.
and to think we bitchslapped Portugal and Mexico in the aformentioned worldwide tounament we pretty much ignore. Imagine if we actually gave a shit. :lol:
It's not so much that we ignore it. It's just that we don't want to piss off the world again by proving that we're once again better then them at everything. :wink:

Posted: 2004-08-03 03:22pm
by Slartibartfast
Anyone can get really good at some sport by throwing obscene amounts of money at it :)

Posted: 2004-08-03 03:39pm
by Wicked Pilot
The only thing manly about soccer is soccer riots. In fact, as heterosexuality goes, the most non gay sport out there is soccer riots (if it were a sport), followed by rugby, followed by a close tie between football and hockey. The only thing more gay that soccer is cheerleading, but at least with cheerleading you can look up women's skirts while holding them above your head.

Posted: 2004-08-03 03:45pm
by Darth Wong
This thread is pure spam. The link in the original post doesn't even work, nobody has been discussing the subject, Wicked Pilot has been piling on the post count and hoping no one would notice (foolish pilot, The Eye sees all), and it's generally been a complete waste of bandwidth. You must all now do penance by paying tribute to Straha for stealing his patented methods.

Posted: 2004-08-03 04:16pm
by RedImperator
Why Americans don't like soccer and probably never will like it particularly much (some of these points were already raised by Mandelbaum in the OP's article):

1. Not enough scoring and too many ties. This is hurting hockey, too, which is part of why we only have 3 1/2 major sports (4 if you count hockey and NASCAR as half a major each). Basketball routinely runs scores into the 80's and 90's in the course of a 42 minute game, football into the teens at LEAST unless one or both teams is bad on offense or terriffic on defense, and even baseball games are rarely 2-1 or 1-0 anymore (if I had to guess, I'd say the average is 4-5 runs per team per game at this point). Basketball and baseball never tie, and football rarely (never in college and never in the pros in the playoffs).

2. Too much competition. The US is a huge market with a lot of disposable time and income, but three established major sports plus hockey and NASCAR chew up too much of it. Worse, there's simply no part of the year where soccer wouldn't be competing with a major sport (baseball from mid-spring to mid-fall, football from late summer to mid-winter, basketball from fall to early summer). And where our majors overlap, one usually goes unnoticed until the other one ends--baseball doesn't hit its stride until after basketball season is over, nobody in America cares about basketball before the Super Bowl. The only overlap where both sports get attention is late fall, when baseball is in the playoffs and the NFL and college seasons are starting (football is so dominant it can successfully compete no matter how much competition it faces--the Arena League, which plays a slightly different version of football and is considered a joke by many NFL and college fans gets better ratings on ABC than the NHL). Soccer would have to cut into (has tried to cut into, in fact) another sport's pie. Soccer may be older than America, but IN America it's essentially 100 years behind baseball, football and basketball.


Worse, soccer has competition among the minor sports. America has a professional lacrosse league, a summer professional football league, a women's professional basketball league, a professional golf league, some of the best professional tennis in the world, niche sports of all kinds played at the college level, horse racing, three different kinds of auto racing, and of course professional hockey. There's also professional wrestling, which isn't a real sport because the contests are rigged and everybody cheerfully acknowledges the fact, but it combines violence that's more "real" than staged drama (they pull their punches, but they're still jumping on each other and throwing each other to the ground, without stunt doubles or second takes) with melodramatic storylines. There IS a professional soccer league in the US, but it's way down the ladder and competing with flashier sports just to get the attention televised poker tournaments do. In fact, I'd be surprised if soccer's TV ratings here (minus big events like the Olympics or the World Cup which will have all the foreign riffraff we let in here absolutely riveted) beat things like professional billiards and bowling on ESPN 2.

There was a women's professional league, too, which was built to capitalize on the US women's team's success in 1999, with nationally known stars like Mia Hamm (who went out of their way to be accessible to the fans and were, in many cases, incredibly attractive), playing in big markets like New York, Philadelphia, and Washington, tapping a market with huge disposable income that was virtually ignored previously who played soccer and idolized the US women's team's players (young middle class suburban girls), a huge marketing push, cheap tickets, family friendly games with lots of activities beforehand, TV time on local stations, and lots of national press after we won in 1999 (after all, that was the first US soccer team to achive any kind of international success). That league went bankrupt last year and folded.

3. We've already got a game where you run back and forth and try to put a ball in a goal. That would be basketball, and while it's not soccer, it's close enough, and we've got the best players in the world already--we grow most of them here and the rest we import. Basketball is by far the "cheap" sport of choice in the cities (all you need to play is a ball and a hoop) and can be enjoyed as a team or one on one. Soccer is cheap, too (you only need two trash cans for a goal if you don't have a net), but it's not played at all in the city and in the suburbs it's played mostly in youth leagues that cost money to join. Mandelbaum is wrong, by the way, about football not being a cheap sport. All you need is a ball and enough players to make two teams. The expensive equipment is needed for league play, but I and everyone else I know played both touch and tackle football informally. If there was no American football, kids who didn't like basketball probably would play soccer in sandlots or side streets, but when a full sized rubber football that will last for years costs $15 and you're allowed to tackle people, informal soccer games are a third choice, at best.

4. Soccer is, for accurately or not, considered a wussy sport in America. It doesn't help that the game is more popular among girls than boys and rarely played by members of the more aggressive young subcultures (primarily urban).

EDIT: Well, how about that. Got locked while I was writing and didn't even notice because I'M A MOD. HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA. By the way, if anyone is interested, the actual link is here. WHYY 91 FM, Philadelphia's NPR station, also interviewed him for an hour on a local show called Radio Times (I knew I've heard of this guy before). Click here and type "Mandelbaum" in the search field to get a link to a Real Audio transcript of the conversation, during which he talks about why he thinks soccer hasn't caught on.

Posted: 2004-08-03 04:25pm
by RedImperator
Mike, if you don't mind, I'm going to unlock this and see if any serious discussion springs up, since now there's a working link so people can critique the article. If not, I can lock it again.

Posted: 2004-08-03 10:46pm
by Elfdart
What hurt hockey was the crackdown on fighting and the use of goons. Ratings fell by up to a THIRD.

Another reason is that advertisers want no part of it. There aren't enough breaks in soccer to put in beer ads featuring hot chicks, truck ads featuring hot chicks and ads for more sports with beer, truck and hot chicks.

When they had the World Cup here in 1994, the networks tried banner ads and hated it. They want those Miller Lite ads to have your full attention.

Posted: 2004-08-03 11:46pm
by Howedar
RedImperator wrote:1. Not enough scoring and too many ties. This is hurting hockey, too, which is part of why we only have 3 1/2 major sports (4 if you count hockey and NASCAR as half a major each). Basketball routinely runs scores into the 80's and 90's in the course of a 42 minute game, football into the teens at LEAST unless one or both teams is bad on offense or terriffic on defense, and even baseball games are rarely 2-1 or 1-0 anymore (if I had to guess, I'd say the average is 4-5 runs per team per game at this point). Basketball and baseball never tie, and football rarely (never in college and never in the pros in the playoffs).
This is a huge problem, but I think there's one that's even bigger. Soccer is hard to televise. Baseball, only one thing is happening at once and it's a very predictable action (ball thrown to plate, is hit or not). Basketball has a very small court and cameras right up next to the action. Likewise for hockey. Football has all of the action generally taking place in a small area, and when it leaves that area you know where it's going (downfield to an open receiver). Soccer has a tremendously huge field, too many players, and action isn't predictable. It might be great to watch in person, but it won't get the chance because everyone will watch some on TV before they actually go to a game. This isn't a problem in low-income countries with little TV, nor in Europe where soccer has been established for longer than the television has existed. However, soccer has neither of these advantages in the United States, and trying to break into the US market with a game that is hard to televise makes promotion very difficult.

Posted: 2004-08-04 12:22am
by Shogoki
Wicked Pilot wrote: unless you have a football in your hands.
Wouldn't that make it a handball?

Posted: 2004-08-04 06:57am
by RedImperator
Howedar wrote:
RedImperator wrote:1. Not enough scoring and too many ties. This is hurting hockey, too, which is part of why we only have 3 1/2 major sports (4 if you count hockey and NASCAR as half a major each). Basketball routinely runs scores into the 80's and 90's in the course of a 42 minute game, football into the teens at LEAST unless one or both teams is bad on offense or terriffic on defense, and even baseball games are rarely 2-1 or 1-0 anymore (if I had to guess, I'd say the average is 4-5 runs per team per game at this point). Basketball and baseball never tie, and football rarely (never in college and never in the pros in the playoffs).
This is a huge problem, but I think there's one that's even bigger. Soccer is hard to televise. Baseball, only one thing is happening at once and it's a very predictable action (ball thrown to plate, is hit or not). Basketball has a very small court and cameras right up next to the action. Likewise for hockey. Football has all of the action generally taking place in a small area, and when it leaves that area you know where it's going (downfield to an open receiver). Soccer has a tremendously huge field, too many players, and action isn't predictable. It might be great to watch in person, but it won't get the chance because everyone will watch some on TV before they actually go to a game. This isn't a problem in low-income countries with little TV, nor in Europe where soccer has been established for longer than the television has existed. However, soccer has neither of these advantages in the United States, and trying to break into the US market with a game that is hard to televise makes promotion very difficult.
This is true, I think. Last summer there was some kind of European soccer tournament being played in the United States (to promote the game, I guess) and I watched some of the game between Real Madrid and Manchester United at Lincoln Financial Field in Philadelphia (more to see the new stadium than the game), and it got frustrating quickly to see players reacting to things I couldn't see. The pass and the assist are vital in soccer, and you lose a lot not being able to see recievers (for lack of a better word) setting up downfield.

HDTV could help alleviate this (it's done wonders for hockey, from what I've heard), but it's going to be some time before everyone has HDTV.

Posted: 2004-08-04 02:28pm
by Falkenhayn
Americans don't like soccer because, on the international level, its a fucking crock.

We beat Portugal, Mexico and Germany.

Yes. Germany. I can understand 1 goal getting called back. But two? How very convenient.

Before that ref's whistle blew a second time, that "SHEISSE!" that was brewing in the mouths of all Germans would have broken mach 1. 80 million simultaneous turtleheads at that exact moment.

When a football player gets carted off the field, it's because he broke a leg, ankle, arm, tore an ACL, got a concussion, cracked a rib or threw something out of a socket. Which he gets taped up and starts playing with a couple downs.

When a socker player gets hauled off the field, its because his pussy friends need a breather or his fullbacks just got burned.

Then again, when you are the American national team, and you are playing Paraguay with a Brazilian Ref, and Mexican and Argentinian Linesmen, that's just coincidence right?

Posted: 2004-08-04 05:21pm
by Bob the Gunslinger
Soontir C'boath wrote:Well, we do have women's soccer here, so we can't actually say it hasn't caught on...just perhaps not with men. :P
That's true. For some reason, America loves women's soccer, but couldn't give a rat's ass about mens soccer. And having been to an American pro soccer match (LA Galaxy vs Kansas Wizards--are they KKK or something?), I can tell you that a full dental checkup is a better way to kill 2 hours...

Soccer is one of those games, like baseball, that is more fun to play than to watch. I used to be in the AYSO, until I broke my leg and got all out of shape from 6 months of immobility, and I had a lot of fun, but could never bother to watch anyone else play.

Oh, and for those of you who say soccer doesn't have real injuries, my brother has broken his arm and his ankle playing it. And I mean an "extra elbow in his forearm" kind of break.

Posted: 2004-08-04 05:28pm
by Bob the Gunslinger
Lord Pounder wrote: Quarter finals IIRC. However they where jammy shits to evan have qualified that year. My point still stands America is uninterested in a sport they'll never win.
The women's team won. Us and China beat all you clown silly.