Countdown of powerful 40K beings.

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The Yosemite Bear
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Post by The Yosemite Bear »

NecronLord wrote:
Grand Admiral Ancaris wrote: I would reverse 2 and 3. I don't think Nightbringer has quite recovered from his starvation yet, not to mention part of his power is still lost with his Flagship.
They're all at full power. Hence why I put them above the Emperor.
Malal hasn't appeared in a GW publication for years,
Meh, I found him in the Warhammer RPG book the other day.
I know, I used to have a character that served him....

funny guy, a choas servant who killed other choas servants....
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Post by white_rabbit »

Here we are, and with a nice case of eye-strain to go with it.
Further Study of the Elves and the power of Chaos (Liber chaotica Slaanesh)

"...It was in this way, the simple deities that the eldar races had developed for themselves across the millenia of evolution suddenly stopped being mere concepts or items of faith and became actual beings with immense power and independent identity, the truly were the first daemons , gods and angels of the Empyrean.."
Note that Elves and Eldar are not different, the Liberchaotica books are written from the perspective of Warhammer people having visions, in particular the poor bastard who "writes" the Books of Chaos.

So, the Eldar/Elves create their gods, (theres another passage describing this for the Eldar as well...)



" But the Asur have never made good servants, long before the collapse of the slaans Gateway, the Asur already had a strong understanding of magic and the basic laws governing how chaos interacted with matter and intelligence, this knowledge allowed them to control manny of the lesser chaos entities and form a more syhmbiotic relationship with some of the more ordered greater entities. Without even realising it the Asur began to impoise their wil and expectations onto some of these greater entities forging them into benign dieties that personified various aspects of the Asurs ideals, hopes and aspirations.
Asur is obviously reference to the Elves/eldar (star born asur)



Echoes of the Birth (Liber Chaotica Slaanesh)
"...I saw the dawn of a race I took to be the Asur, though they lived not upon my world or in my time. I saw them raised from nothing by figures of shasow and light, And ancient and powerful race, the first ever to have reaced into the starryt night, Older than the gods, yet mortal and subject to time...."
This would be the Old Ones/First Ones.
I saw these First Ones leave the starborn Asur to return beyond the sky leaving their charges to grow by themselves........with subconsious and natural born talent they reached into the chaos realm and experiment ed with magic and sorcery and their works were glorious to behold. But then the First Ones retured from the darkness beyond the sky, their stranger and vast vessels were scarred and worn, their light dimmed and their shadows dispersing, For I knew that they fought and unending war with gods that were not fo the Aethyr, Gods of starlight, vampires of life. The First Ones had returned to inspect the Elder and judge whether they were yet fit for the battles that lay ahead, I watched as the First Ones encouraged the younger race to reach further into the other realm and with their vibrant minds and passionate souls create beings of power to fight the star gods.
Emphasis mine.
But the battle was long anfd the First ones were now few.......Without the wisdom and might of the first ones to bind them, I saw the elders warpbeings evolve from sentient weapons into living gods, the first true gods of the immaterium. How I wept when the Elder embraced them as such.
and again.
Time moved onwards and I saw the rise of the brother heroes Eldanesh and Ulthanesh, who alone, in the avsence of the Firstones could control the warpgods and summon them onto the physical plane, I saw them march to war against the silver skinned Yngir, the stargods and their slaves, I saw them summon the dread lord Khaine , the ELders mighty god of war to battle with them, I saw the brothers and their god lead their choldren into battle time and time again, pitting chaoes spawned furies against the souless technologies of the Yngir. But in time, the boundaries between the gods of the aethyr and the gods of the Stars blurred, and the Elder could not tell one from the other. In their fury, the gods of the stars and the gods of the Aethyr turned ipon each oterh caputring or destroying those they could, and striking bargains with those they could not, I saw the forging of the widow makers, the one hundred swords of khaine and I watched the betrayal as one was stolen and hidden far away. I saw the end of shining Althanesh at the hands of the god of death. I was witness to the final battle in which khaine was almost split asunder by the destruction of that same Death God, and I saw how endless warfare fanned the embers of Khaine's fury, filling him with power and driving him into madness, gripped by and unquenchable rage Khaine eventually turned against the Elder and slew Prince Eldanesh.

Some interesting points here, more possible links between WHFB and 40k, the Sword of Khaine that Anaerion drew could very possibly be the lost Sword of Khaine. Plus the fact that the C'tan and Warp Gods blurred into each other, hopefully this doesnt mean the Deciever is the Laughing God.

Also details how Khaine/Khorne was originally just an aspect of the Eldar psyche, but became his own being.



".......Then the Elder adopted, refined and perfected the First Ones skills for measuring the Warp and predicting its movements, they somehow linked their worlds and their floating city ships with their magical gateways. I watched as they joined millions of stars under one rule..."
*shrug* just thought this might be interesting. Ditto below.
"..For their most terrible crime of creating Him, from then and ever after, the Elder would belong to SLaanesh, their actions and beliefs had given him potential, but their souls had given him for and presence, and in death their souls were his to consume as he pleased.."
What follows is a excerpt from Of Pleasure and Rage, which details the birth of Slaanesh, relevant points are quoted, but basically details it from the Chaos Gods side. I have the full thing typed up if people want to read it, but here are the relevent bits for me.
pon the mortal plane all wars had ceased, all morals and laws had rotted away, and the change to concur was almost done, The Three wavered as Decadence took hold, and Slaanesh expanded beyond size and beyond measure, But Khorne, unable to see defeat, hung on to His charge though his arms were bent back, and his body near crushed. Then with a scream of release that ripped through the warp, SLaanesh threw off his eldest Brother and burst into being.

Such was the Event of Slaanesh's birth, the metal body that had contained Khorne's essence since he had slain Khaelis Ra, shattered into a thousand pieces that scattered across the dimension. But through his spirit had been freed from its silver prison, Khorne had not the strength to strike a counterblow against exultant Slaanesh, and so the Pleasure God was left to reap the souls of his mortal creators and set his throne alongside those of his brothers. So it was that the Three became Four, and the Eternal Pantheon was made complete.
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Post by Grand Admiral Ancaris »

Interesting quotes. I must ask though, why no page numbers?

Also, that quote about Khaine/Khorne being freed of the living metal does not change the fact that his physical incarnation, the Avatar, is forever tainted and still bears the aspect of the reaper.
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Post by NecronLord »

Looks like a fuckup on the part of the writer to me.
Khorne had not the strength to strike a counterblow against exultant Slaanesh
Khorne has the power to repel Slaanesh, the Chaos gods are constantly warring against one another. If Khorne were weaker than Slanessh, he would have perished by now. Khaine however didn't. I think we can dismiss this as some mistake that got through the proof reading. Or even an In Character mistake by the crazed monk (or whatever) who's meant to be putting these things together.

As for the Deceiver being the Laughing god, well, we do know that the Deceiver played both sides off against each other (Codex Necrons, page 31) and that it was supposedly responsible for agitating the C'tan to consume one another, a trait it shares with the Great Harlequin.

However, this begs the question how the Harlequins managed without him until now, unless of course, they created a new god to replace him and forgot there was ever an original. If so, will the Jackal God attempt to reclaim its Eldar worshippers?

Oh, and yeah, please send the full version, either via PM or to 'necron' at stardestroyer.net.
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Post by DocHorror »

How can the Deciever be the Laughing God? The Laughing God exists inside the webway. Surely that would be death for a C'tan.
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Post by Bob the Gunslinger »

Is this information only available in the codices, or can I find it in novels like "Nightbringer," etc.?

This all sounds very interesting, but even more complex than the Cthulhu mythos...
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Post by Black Admiral »

Bob the Gunslinger wrote:Is this information only available in the codices, or can I find it in novels like "Nightbringer," etc.?

This all sounds very interesting, but even more complex than the Cthulhu mythos...
Ity's available in certain novels - Eye of Terror, the Inquistion War trilogy, and so on - as well as rulebooks and codices.
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Post by NecronLord »

DocHorror wrote:How can the Deciever be the Laughing God? The Laughing God exists inside the webway. Surely that would be death for a C'tan.
No. The warp doesn't kill them (The nightbringer's ship survived in the warp for millions of years, still there in fact, and a key part of its operation is a part of its master bonded with it.) and they're able to retrieve things (Nightbringer's beacon) from it. The thing is, when they're there, they're stuck there, with nothing to eat, for all time. They're most likely to die of starvation, as they have no way of getting back to reality.

The web would be easy enough for the Deceiver to get out of. Find Eldar with right capabilities. Mindfuck. Get him to open a portal.
Is this information only available in the codices, or can I find it in novels like "Nightbringer," etc.?

This all sounds very interesting, but even more complex than the Cthulhu mythos...
There's a vast body of literature from Warhammer (& 40K) which this comes from. Much of the basics are in the codexes though, and they're a good starting point.
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Post by white_rabbit »

Grand Admiral Ancaris wrote:Interesting quotes. I must ask though, why no page numbers?

Also, that quote about Khaine/Khorne being freed of the living metal does not change the fact that his physical incarnation, the Avatar, is forever tainted and still bears the aspect of the reaper.

It literally doesnt have them, thats why I added the "titles" so to speak of the various bits.

Unless the numbers are hidden somewhere weird, I can't find them :D

Does it ? I mean, the tainted avatar of Khorne literally is no longer part of him.

KHAINE, or rather, the aspect of Khorne, the "eldar" part for want of a better phrase is seemingly physically seperated from Khorne, in the form of the Avatars, who DO still bear the aspect of the Reaper, and are still Eldar friendly (ish)

The part of Khaine/khorne that drove the entity to turn against the Eldar seems to have been segregated in the God Khorne.

I do not see how the Khorne, if he manifested physically, would any longer be as you say. Khaine might be, but Khorne is by now the dominant force behind the War God.



Looks like a fuckup on the part of the writer to me.
Heh, this is why I typed the full version, essentially, Slaanesh is Amped by the Eldar decadence, as encouraged by Eldar stupidity and Shaha Gaathon, Herald of Slaanesh.

However, this begs the question how the Harlequins managed without him until now, unless of course, they created a new god to replace him and forgot there was ever an original. If so, will the Jackal God attempt to reclaim its Eldar worshippers?
I think it would be a tremendous fuckup to make the Laughing God the Deciever. theres the oft mentioned fact that the dude lives in the webway, and your points about his abscence.


Another option is that the two are seperate, and play everyone off against each other, and have at one point or another taken the others place.

(I would also wonder why the Avatar in Shadow Point didnt swat the harlys....)
No. The warp doesn't kill them
I'm not certain about this conclusion, after all, the Blackstones appear to be just bigass warp guns...

I will send the full sequence Of Pleasure and Rage, it should resolve your point about fuckups.
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Post by Grand Admiral Ancaris »

Send it to me too, WR, please. Via PM is fine.
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Post by The Yosemite Bear »

this should be interesting, we have one of the few people here who has been employed by GW asking for evidence.....
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Post by Tatterdemalion »

NecronLord wrote: Yeah, thing is, compared to the necrontyr technology base, the C'tan are meant to be godlike. If it was technology, that makes the C'tan even more uber.
Depends how you read it. I mean, that might just only apply to Necron tech before they started turnng to the C'tan for ideas, but that's all hypothisis.

I might be making an ass of myself by saying this, but if the C'tan could blackhole systems on a whim in the old days, why didn't the Nightbringer do that to Khaine? I mean they were obviously fighting in the material universe, as the Nightbringer can't exist in the warp, so why didn't he just draw the entire system into a blackhole for an instant victory? While the C'tan are unquestionably powerful, I personally disagree that they're QUITE as godlike as you say, since from what we can tell they were in a rough stalemate with the Eldar gods until the Enslavers came along.

As Whiterabbit says, it's a question of defining what a C'tan can personally do, and what a C'tan can accomplish through technology.
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Post by white_rabbit »

The Yosemite Bear wrote:this should be interesting, we have one of the few people here who has been employed by GW asking for evidence.....
Not to downplay Ancaris mate, but why on earth would you think that being a BFGer ubermencsh would mean hes an infallible source of info on all things GW ?

Ancaris, might want NL to pm you it, my text document is on another comp atm.
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Post by The Yosemite Bear »

I keep forgetting that he's only been employeed for Battlefleet Gothic....
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Post by NecronLord »

Tatterdemalion wrote:why didn't the Nightbringer do that to Khaine?
No one ever said it was at a whim. I myself imagine it as something very rare

Why doesn't the US solve all its problems with nukes? The right tool for the right job. Why would he destroy a base choc full of technological items he wanted?
until the Enslavers came along.
This requires an essay on C'tan mentality I think. As the Deceiver says in Deus Ex Mechanicus, the enslavers couldn't harm them. In any way whatsoever.

The thing you must remember, is that the C'tan can up and leave at any time they like, and go back to being star parasites. The reason they don't is because life as a god is much more interesting than life as a glorified space cow. In DEM, you can clearly see just how much the Deceiver relishes talking to mortals, even though they're vastly below him. They're pretty much addicted to their minions.

Now the enslavers present a slight problem. Namely, the C'tan and even their minions, couldn't be in as many places at once, and thus their source of amusement was being enslaved. Now alas, when you kill the elslaver, I doubt all that much of anyone who has their minds torn apart remains for you to eat/play with. They went into stasis until sufficient sentient races developed once more to keep them amused, not because they themselves were threatened by the enslavers.
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Post by NecronLord »

And in reference to the technology vs innate power question folks, let me remind you that the most powerful vessel we've seen, the nightbringer's ship, worked precisely because it was imbued with part of the god, and could draw its power from him.
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Post by Tatterdemalion »

NecronLord wrote:And in reference to the technology vs innate power question folks, let me remind you that the most powerful vessel we've seen, the nightbringer's ship, worked precisely because it was imbued with part of the god, and could draw its power from him.
Which doesn't necessarily mean the Nightbringer could do all the things his ship could without the aid of the ship's equipment. After all, petrol isn't a particularly deadly weapon on it's own (well it can be set on fire but that's about it), but when powering the engine of a tank...
Now the enslavers present a slight problem. Namely, the C'tan and even their minions, couldn't be in as many places at once, and thus their source of amusement was being enslaved. Now alas, when you kill the elslaver, I doubt all that much of anyone who has their minds torn apart remains for you to eat/play with. They went into stasis until sufficient sentient races developed once more to keep them amused, not because they themselves were threatened by the enslavers.
So basically you're saying they were only letting the Eldar gods have the occaisional victory because they didn't want to win? (since that's about the only way the I can see the C'tan as being more powerful than Slaanesh, despite being apparently locked in a stalemate with beings Slaanesh took down single-handedly) Now I may be commiting a bit of a strawman here, so if I'm wrong just clarify your position, but if that is what your claiming some evidence that the C'tan/Necrons weren't going full out against the Eldar pantheon would be nice.
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Post by NecronLord »

Tatterdemalion wrote:Which doesn't necessarily mean the Nightbringer could do all the things his ship could without the aid of the ship's equipment. After all, petrol isn't a particularly deadly weapon on it's own (well it can be set on fire but that's about it), but when powering the engine of a tank...
So? It's still his power. This is "Which has the most power" not which is most flexible in its application of that power (in which case, I'd put Tzeentch at the top, due to his... changefulness).

The tank is a false comparison. The Nightbringer didn't fuel it, he powered it, it was especially dangerous because it had a part of him in it.
So basically you're saying they were only letting the Eldar gods have the occaisional victory because they didn't want to win? (since that's about the only way the I can see the C'tan as being more powerful than Slaanesh, despite being apparently locked in a stalemate with beings Slaanesh took down single-handedly) Now I may be commiting a bit of a strawman here, so if I'm wrong just clarify your position, but if that is what your claiming some evidence that the C'tan/Necrons weren't going full out against the Eldar pantheon would be nice.
I'm not. Their measurable power, is greater. In most cases, I doubt they ever encountered each other directly. Unlike in the warp, in reality the C'tan would have to search for the physical avatars of the Eldar Gods (who can always hide in the warp)

Neither side is actually capable of killing the other. A C'tan can't kill a warp-god, {not actually true if we take the Liber Slanessh thing, where it's stated that the nightbringer killed one of the Eldar gods.} unless by eliminating all those who it reflects, which would be counterproductive, and a warp-god cannot kill a C'tan, without the aid of the Talismen of Vaul {which remember, failed to kill the Dragon} at least.

I was talking about the Enslavers there, which are a different kind of beastie alltogether from warp gods. They were described in a fairly recent White Dwarf. The enslavers come fully into reality, and are quite vunerable to mortal weapons.
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