Nemesis: Alters Federation Strategic Evaluation?

[The Kernel]

The Akira class has 11 forward torpedo launchers, 2 starboard, 2 port. These are on the actual CG model.

http://www.lcarscom.net/fsd/art/akira.html

This page details the information.

The page does NOT really give much details on the location of these tubes, and regardless, they did NOT use these tubes during the attack on the Romulan fleet (they didn't fire NEARLY that many torpedoes) nor have we EVER seen them do an alpha strike with this kind of firepower. So it is kind of irrelevent to the point I made about the "Message in a Bottle" battle.

In any case, I'm all for extrapolations, but if we've never seen this level of firepower demonstrated and if larger and more powerful Federation ships don't carry this kind of firepower, then how can we infer these tubes existance merely from our interpretation of the models? After all, do we know what a Federation tractor projector looks like?

[Alyeska]

The Akira class has 11 forward torpedo launchers, 2 starboard, 2 port. These are on the actual CG model.

http://www.lcarscom.net/fsd/art/akira.html

This page details the information.

The page does NOT really give much details on the location of these tubes, and regardless, they did NOT use these tubes during the attack on the Romulan fleet (they didn't fire NEARLY that many torpedoes) nor have we EVER seen them do an alpha strike with this kind of firepower. So it is kind of irrelevent to the point I made about the "Message in a Bottle" battle.

In any case, I'm all for extrapolations, but if we've never seen this level of firepower demonstrated and if larger and more powerful Federation ships don't carry this kind of firepower, then how can we infer these tubes existance merely from our interpretation of the models? After all, do we know what a Federation tractor projector looks like?

The page gives all the information necessary for finding the torpedoes.

As to why they weren't used in Message in a Bottle. We already know that torpedo expenditures in the war were extremely high. Its possible they didn't even have any onboard, it was just one of the only ships they had in range.

Last of all, the model of the Akira has these torpedo launchers. We can not ignore their existance. Unless of course you are in favor of ignoring weapon systems so long as they were never fired. The Galaxy class still has several phaser arrays never shown to fire. Shall we simply write them off?

[seanrobertson]

*snip script*

My mistake, three warbirds. However, the assault was a mere few seconds in duration, and the Enterprise's shields were battered down, and they were holding back... That's more impressive than the preformance of the borg cube in Q-Who for example.

Necron,

In the aired version of "The Defector," we see only two Warbirds. You remembered correctly

Kernel:

Yes, a D'Deridex fired on the E-D in "Tin Man," dropping the latter's shields to 30% with 6-7 disruptor pulses in ~5 seconds.

It's probably impossible to derive a sound Warbird-GCS firepower ratio therefrom, but we can at least say it's impressive

[seanrobertson]

True. But there's no reason they'd have to build an entirely new ship to make up that difference. The engines on a D'Deridex could have been refitted to make up such a small difference.

Actually, I'm not sure it was such a small difference. And if we assumed such a refit is so straight-forward, why further assume it'd "close the gap" between D'Deridex and Valdore speeds?

And the Norexan class isn't that much smaller than the Sovereign or a Vor'cha. If it's just built for speed, it should be smaller like a Defiant or Intrepid.

Actually, you're context-dropping. Romulan battleships are several times larger than Klingon or Starfleet counterparts. That their light cruisers would be comparable in size to other powers' heavy cruisers, battlecruisers etc. isn't unreasonable.

The single advantage of speed isn't enough to justify building a capital ship.

Why not?

I can think of many ways in which faster, if lighter-armed, ships fill a much needed role in the Romulan navy.

An example:

Imagine a Romulan outpost comes under attack from a Klingon battlecruiser. Just before the outpost's communications are jammed, the Rommies get off a distress signal. A D'Deridex only 1 ly distant picks up that signal, and naturally hauls ass to save the day.

The Warbird arrives at the outpost 2 hours later ("The Enemy"), only to find that the outpost and surrounding land mass are a smoking crater. The Klingon ship had long since broken orbit and is too far away to catch now.

Would outgunning the Klingon ship count for anything in this scenario?


Speed can be everything depending on the situation. I daresay Romulan high command learned that lesson from the events of "Tin Man," meekly watching as their pride-and-joy Warbird literally ran its engine to death just to catch up to the Enterprise-D.

And if they knew the Norexan class wasn't as strong as the D'Deridex, why didn't they send more ships? Without canon evidence of the Romulan fleet being more spread out than usual *snip*, I'll assume that for one reason or another Donatra expected two Valdores to do better than two D'Deridexes.

Donatra no doubt sent everything she could muster. And it's hardly unusual for the Federation or Romulans to have only a ship or handful of ships in range of a certain point at the Neutral Zone; e.g., "Data's Day," "The Defector," and "The Enemy."

Not to mention - we don't know that the E-E was traveling at maximum warp. The distance may have been such that the had to drop to maximum cruise by the time they got to the rift. That doesn't help a D'Deridex at Romulus catch up with them, but it does help a D'Deridex that's closer to the rift than the point at which they decreased speed.

Assuming, of course, there were such Warbirds near the rift--yet another unknown. Sorry, but you know as well as I "what makes sense" /= "that which is very likely."

[Sarevok]

It's probably impossible to derive a sound Warbird-GCS firepower ratio therefrom, but we can at least say it's impressive

According to one estimate made by Aleyska the Warbird has three times greater firepower than the Galaxy.

[Uraniun235]

Yes, a D'Deridex fired on the E-D in "Tin Man," dropping the latter's shields to 30% with 6-7 disruptor pulses in ~5 seconds.

On the other hand, we have never seen a Galaxy fire upon a D'Deridex, nor a GCS upon another GCS (so we don't know what a salvo from a GCS would do to another). I personally suspect (without solid evidence to back it up, sadly) that a Galaxy/D'Deridex duel comes down largely to whomever gets in the first strike.

[Alyeska]

It's probably impossible to derive a sound Warbird-GCS firepower ratio therefrom, but we can at least say it's impressive

According to one estimate made by Aleyska the Warbird has three times greater firepower than the Galaxy.

Incorrect. A D'Deridex class Warbird is slightly more powerful then the Flight I Galaxy class ships. It is slightly less powerful then the Flight II (War GCS) Galaxy class. The advantage the Warbird has is it seems it concentrates almost all of its firepower in the forward arc. This means in a strate up battle, a Warbird can focus ~80% (this is an assumed percent) of its power on the Galaxy. In turn, the Galaxy can only focus ~50% of its firepower on the Warbird.

If we assume the Galaxy has a total firepower of 100, that means it can fight with 50. If the Warbird has a total firepower of 110, it can fight with 88. The Warbird has an advantage in 1-1 head on battles. Combined with the Romulans love of cloaking devices, this means their ships have a desvestating first strike capability.

Now here is an interesting thought. What if the Valdore class has only half the firepower of a D'Deridex but also concentrates its power in the forward arc. Pit the Valdore against a GCS. The GCS has 50 firepower in its forward arc while the Valdore has 44 in its forward arc. The less powerful Valdore can still take down a GCS in a first strike situation.

These advantages to the Romulans come with a drawback. The aft portions of their ships are not well armed. This means in large scale fleet situations the Romulans can be flanked and destroyed. As big and powerful as the D'Deridex is, I could take 3 Sabre class destroyers (combined they are still cheaper and less powerful then a D'Deridex) and destroy a D'Deridex. I pit these same 3 Sabres against a GCS and they will die.

Given the Romulan military thinking, the D'Deridex fits perfectly. The Romulans prefer to avoid war, or if they have to fight they want to strike with overwhelming firepower in the first volley to savage their enemy. The Romulans would rather declare war on an enemey in surprise then be attacked. Because of this their foreign policy is one of both deciept, and careful negotiating to prevent its enemies from creating a prolonged war the Romulans would be hard pressed to win.

[Jason von Evil]

Yes, a D'Deridex fired on the E-D in "Tin Man," dropping the latter's shields to 30% with 6-7 disruptor pulses in ~5 seconds.

On the other hand, we have never seen a Galaxy fire upon a D'Deridex, nor a GCS upon another GCS (so we don't know what a salvo from a GCS would do to another). I personally suspect (without solid evidence to back it up, sadly) that a Galaxy/D'Deridex duel comes down largely to whomever gets in the first strike.

Bzzzt! Wrong! We saw the E-D fire on another E-D in that episode of TNG where Worf was jumping through various alt realities. Granted the E-D that was fired upon was already badly damaged from fighting the Borg.

[The Kernel]

The page gives all the information necessary for finding the torpedoes.

As to why they weren't used in Message in a Bottle. We already know that torpedo expenditures in the war were extremely high. Its possible they didn't even have any onboard, it was just one of the only ships they had in range.

Last of all, the model of the Akira has these torpedo launchers. We can not ignore their existance. Unless of course you are in favor of ignoring weapon systems so long as they were never fired. The Galaxy class still has several phaser arrays never shown to fire. Shall we simply write them off?

Well, even assuming that it has that many torpedo launchers, it still doesn't help prove your point if the ship in "Message in a Bottle" never used them.

[Jason von Evil]

So, just because we never saw them being used, means they don't exist?

[The Kernel]

So, just because we never saw them being used, means they don't exist?

I was talking about his original point that Valdores are weaker than D'Deridexes.

[Alyeska]

So, just because we never saw them being used, means they don't exist?

I was talking about his original point that Valdores are weaker than D'Deridexes.

No, what you were saying is irrelevent to the discussion.

Furthermore, the Valdores are weaker then D'Deridex class ships. Disrupter shots are roughly similar in firepower to phasers. The Valdore has less only shown forward disrupters.

[The Kernel]

No, what you were saying is irrelevent to the discussion.

Hardly, I was attempting to quantify the D'Deridex firepower which you seem to take for granted.

Furthermore, the Valdores are weaker then D'Deridex class ships. Disrupter shots are roughly similar in firepower to phasers. The Valdore has less only shown forward disrupters.

Really? So they only make one model of disruptor that is the EXACT same power output on all ships? Is this the same with phasers? Do Runabouts have phasers as strong as a GCS?

[Alyeska]

No, what you were saying is irrelevent to the discussion.

Hardly, I was attempting to quantify the D'Deridex firepower which you seem to take for granted.

Furthermore, the Valdores are weaker then D'Deridex class ships. Disrupter shots are roughly similar in firepower to phasers. The Valdore has less only shown forward disrupters.

Really? So they only make one model of disruptor that is the EXACT same power output on all ships? Is this the same with phasers? Do Runabouts have phasers as strong as a GCS?

Grow a fucking brain. The Valdore didn't show anything near the firepower of a D'Deridex. The Sovereign class is more powerful then a Galaxy class, but not grossly so. Yet the Valdore demonstrated a mere fraction of the power of the Sovereign and demonstrated it was weaker then even a Galaxy class.

[The Kernel]

Grow a fucking brain. The Valdore didn't show anything near the firepower of a D'Deridex.

Proof?

The Sovereign class is more powerful then a Galaxy class, but not grossly so.

Proof?

Yet the Valdore demonstrated a mere fraction of the power of the Sovereign and demonstrated it was weaker then even a Galaxy class.

You're 0-3 on this one. Please do quantify the amount of beating that the Valdores took compared to the E-E (you won't be able to of course since Shinzon never did an Alpha strike on the E-E at close range AND we don't know how much of the battle occured off screen).

Since you can't do that, I really suggest you get your head out of your ass and stop acting like your word about ship performance is automatically canon. Especially since with the "Message in a Bottle" battle, we have established that D'deridex Warbirds are pathetically weak considering that THREE were beaten by four ships which were probably collectively outmassed by a single Warbird and by your own admission, the largest of these ships was only using a fraction of its firepower. That and the fact that the Federation ships (especially the Prometheus) had taken prior damage before even engaging the Romulans puts your estimation of D'deridex firepower right in the toilet.

[Alyeska]

(snip irrelevent information)

God your stupid. Tonnage has nothing to do with things here.

A Half dozen disrupter shots that struck a Valdore tore it apart. A dozen shots buckled the E-Es shields and merely caused damage to its hull. The Scimitar rocked slightly when the Valdores shot it. The Scimitar rocked violently when the Enterprise shot it.

The Akira class is the new Heavy Cruiser used by Starfleet. The older Galaxy class matches the Warbird for shielding. The Defiant class has more endurance then any other ship pound for pound. The Prometheus class is the most advanced warship in the fleet. And you wonder how they won? PPCs are extremely powerful when you factor in rates of fire. The Akira has 15 torpedo launchers (just because you never saw them fire does not invalidate their existance). A single Defiant can volley off SIX quantum torpedoes in less then 3 seconds. The total firepower of the Federation ships (not to mention endurance) far exceded the Romulan forces.

The Galaxy class has one forward torpedo launcher with two main arrays forward. It has one aft launcher with 9 small or midsized arrays facing aft. The Sovereign has a half dozen more powerful arrays facing forward along with 3 torpedo launchers and one quantum torpedo launcher (these have lower fire capabilities per launcher though). It has an equal number of aft capable phasers as well as 5 aft torpedo launchers. The Galaxy class has roughly 1/3 the forward firepower of a Sovereign. Maybe 1/4. Demonstrated damage from the disrupters in Nemesis show then to be comparable to phasers. The Valdore fired but a handful of disrupters. The Galaxy class can fire both phasers and a torpedo launcher comparable to two of the E-Es torpedo launcher. The Galaxy class has more forward firepower then a Valdore. Thus the Valdore is weaker then a Galaxy class and is even weaker then a D'Deridex (which is comparable to a Galaxy but with all its power in the frontal arc).

DO THE FUCKING MATH.

[The Kernel]

God your stupid. Tonnage has nothing to do with things here.

This should be framed as a monument to your ongoing stupidity. Tonnage has nothing to with the relative strength of ships? Let me clue you in on a little secret. Greater tonnage = more space for weapons.

A Half dozen disrupter shots that struck a Valdore tore it apart. A dozen shots buckled the E-Es shields and merely caused damage to its hull.

And what was the shield strength of the Valdore when it took those hits? For that matter, did the E-E ever take as many hits as the Valdore did all at once?

The Scimitar rocked slightly when the Valdores shot it. The Scimitar rocked violently when the Enterprise shot it.

And that tells us what about the Valdores firepower? Do you know what effect a Romulan disruptor has on the Scimitars inertial dampers versus a Federation phaser? Do you really need to have it spelled out to you why this is a faulty line of reasoning?

The Akira class is the new Heavy Cruiser used by Starfleet.

You are getting this from where exactly? At only 464 meters long, it doesn't nearly match the tonnage of previous heavy cruisers, so a GCS would still have the greater capability for armament then the Akira assuming equal hardware.

The older Galaxy class matches the Warbird for shielding.

Proof?

The Defiant class has more endurance then any other ship pound for pound.

Proof? If the Defiant class was so great, how come they are not a widespread design, even towards the end of the Dominion War? I only recall seeing four Defiant-class ships during any point in Star Trek which are the Defiant, the second Defiant, and the two ships in "Message in a Bottle".

The Prometheus class is the most advanced warship in the fleet. And you wonder how they won?

Yes I wonder how they won. The Prometheus had already taken damage from the Federation and the Romulans and it had already fired upon the Federation fleet, yet it tore the D'deridex class it fired on apart on its first pass, yet it is a remarkably small ship. You want to explain to me how the Federation could build such a small ship that could defeat the enemy so handily, yet it was always on somewhat equal footing in engagements with the enemy during the Dominion War? What are you suggesting, that a single new ship that is a paltry 415 meters long is somehow several times more powerful than Starfleets previous top of the line warship?

PPCs are extremely powerful when you factor in rates of fire. The Akira has 15 torpedo launchers (just because you never saw them fire does not invalidate their existance). A single Defiant can volley off SIX quantum torpedoes in less then 3 seconds. The total firepower of the Federation ships (not to mention endurance) far exceded the Romulan forces.

Yes it did, which is precicely the problem we have here. The Romulans had three top of the line battleships at the battle while the Federation had four MUCH smaller vessels there, which didn't even use most of their availible firepower (no quantum torpedos fired, only a fraction of the Akira's fifteen launchers used) which means that the D'deridex class is SEVERELY underpowered compared to its Federation counterparts.

I ask you again, do you think three Soverigns or even three War GCS's would have lost this battle in the Romulan's place?

The Galaxy class has one forward torpedo launcher with two main arrays forward. It has one aft launcher with 9 small or midsized arrays facing aft. The Sovereign has a half dozen more powerful arrays facing forward along with 3 torpedo launchers and one quantum torpedo launcher (these have lower fire capabilities per launcher though). It has an equal number of aft capable phasers as well as 5 aft torpedo launchers.

Okay, fine.

The Galaxy class has roughly 1/3 the forward firepower of a Sovereign. Maybe 1/4. Demonstrated damage from the disrupters in Nemesis show then to be comparable to phasers. The Valdore fired but a handful of disrupters. The Galaxy class can fire both phasers and a torpedo launcher comparable to two of the E-Es torpedo launcher. The Galaxy class has more forward firepower then a Valdore. Thus the Valdore is weaker then a Galaxy class and is even weaker then a D'Deridex (which is comparable to a Galaxy but with all its power in the frontal arc).

Here is where your argument falls apart. Let's look at the problems:

1) You have contradicted yourself by saying that the Galaxy has roughly 1/3 the forward firepower of the Soverign. Earlier in this thread you said:

Grow a fucking brain. The Valdore didn't show anything near the firepower of a D'Deridex. The Sovereign class is more powerful then a Galaxy class, but not grossly so. Yet the Valdore demonstrated a mere fraction of the power of the Sovereign and demonstrated it was weaker then even a Galaxy class.

Wow, you just shot yourself in the foot huh? You think 1/3 the forward firepower is not grossly less powerful then a Soverign? Since almost all the Star Trek battle we have seen come down to forward firepower (exactly how many time have we seen the E-D use it vast array of aft weapons compared to the forward one?) that is a severe drawback of the Galaxy-class (at least pre-War refit).

2) You know how strong the Valdore's disruptors are huh? Bravo! Please, do tell HOW you arrived at this conclusion?

DO THE FUCKING MATH.

You already did, and it hasn't helped your argument much now has it?

EDIT: I should probably also note that I'm not taking a side on this argument one way or the other. I'm asking you to prove you assertions and if you can, I'll be glad to conceed the argument.

[Lancer]

not arguing about the Valdore

The Defiant class has more endurance then any other ship pound for pound.

Proof? If the Defiant class was so great, how come they are not a widespread design, even towards the end of the Dominion War? I only recall seeing four Defiant-class ships during any point in Star Trek which are the Defiant, the second Defiant, and the two ships in "Message in a Bottle".

Defiant class vessels don't have the onboard stores for lengthy missions and they use ablative armor which takes a while to fabricate. While they may be powerhouses, it wouldn't be effective to use a fleet of Defiants for the above reasons.

The Prometheus class is the most advanced warship in the fleet. And you wonder how they won?

Yes I wonder how they won. The Prometheus had already taken damage from the Federation and the Romulans and it had already fired upon the Federation fleet, yet it tore the D'deridex class it fired on apart on its first pass, yet it is a remarkably small ship. You want to explain to me how the Federation could build such a small ship that could defeat the enemy so handily, yet it was always on somewhat equal footing in engagements with the enemy during the Dominion War? What are you suggesting, that a single new ship that is a paltry 415 meters long is somehow several times more powerful than Starfleets previous top of the line warship?

The Prometheus is a dedicated warship similar to the Defiant (only faster, bigger, and badder). A lot of space that would be taken up by science labs & recreational facilities on other Fed vessels goes towards more weapons. Now, if the Defiant can match or exceed a pre-War Galaxy class in firepower, imagine what a Prometheus class vessel can do, equipped with the same type of weapons as a Sovereign, only a lot more of 'em, and given ablative armor & regenerative shields.

PPCs are extremely powerful when you factor in rates of fire. The Akira has 15 torpedo launchers (just because you never saw them fire does not invalidate their existance). A single Defiant can volley off SIX quantum torpedoes in less then 3 seconds. The total firepower of the Federation ships (not to mention endurance) far exceded the Romulan forces.

Yes it did, which is precicely the problem we have here. The Romulans had three top of the line battleships at the battle while the Federation had four MUCH smaller vessels there, which didn't even use most of their availible firepower (no quantum torpedos fired, only a fraction of the Akira's fifteen launchers used) which means that the D'deridex class is SEVERELY underpowered compared to its Federation counterparts.

You have 2 vessels (the Defiants) which surpass Galaxy class vessels in firepower and yet are a fraction of the size. In addition to that, you have an Intrepid-sized vessel that packs the firepower of a Sovereign or two, but definitely a few Galaxies. If you were to translate that into Galaxy class vessels, you'd have 6 Galaxy class vessels against 3 Warbirds. Although the Warbirds have much more focused forward arcs, they'll still lose.

Subsitute Galaxy class vessels, the Warbird's closest analog, in place of the warbirds, and they'll do just as poorly. Warbirds may have been top of the line battleships at some point, but by the Dominion war and after they're a pretty much as obsolete as the Galaxy class.

[Lancer]

A Half dozen disrupter shots that struck a Valdore tore it apart. A dozen shots buckled the E-Es shields and merely caused damage to its hull. The Scimitar rocked slightly when the Valdores shot it. The Scimitar rocked violently when the Enterprise shot it.

A dozen shots over a few seconds meant to disable the E-E's warp drive and take down shields over one shield facing vs an alpha-strike at close range meant to kill a Valdore. Had the E-E been hit with a volley similar to the one that took out a Valdore, it too would probably have been blasted to pieces.

The Scimitar rocked slightly when the Valdores shot it because they were firing disruptor bursts, whereas the E-E was hitting the Scimitar with torpedo bursts. It's been establushed that torpedos have much more firepower than standard disruptors or phasers, so one would expect the Scimitar to be tossed around a bit more by torpedos.

[Metrion Cascade]

God your stupid. Tonnage has nothing to do with things here.

This should be framed as a monument to your ongoing stupidity. Tonnage has nothing to with the relative strength of ships? Let me clue you in on a little secret. Greater tonnage = more space for weapons.

The Sovereign class masses more than Slave 1. Your logic assumes all weapons are equally powerful and all space is equally well utilized. Tonnage has little effect when comparing different bases of technology. Even within a given industrial base, different ships have different efficiencies. I'd send the Prometheus up against a GCS any day.

[Alyeska]

This should be framed as a monument to your ongoing stupidity. Tonnage has nothing to with the relative strength of ships? Let me clue you in on a little secret. Greater tonnage = more space for weapons.

Let me clue you in on something here. We are talking about two seperate technological cultures using similar but different weapons. They are not directly comparable.

And what was the shield strength of the Valdore when it took those hits? For that matter, did the E-E ever take as many hits as the Valdore did all at once?

The E-E took more then twice as much firepower as the Valdore took at a single moment. Furthermore the E-E took more then 10 times the sustained damage in one aspect of the battle when it took heavy fire for several seconds.

And that tells us what about the Valdores firepower? Do you know what effect a Romulan disruptor has on the Scimitars inertial dampers versus a Federation phaser? Do you really need to have it spelled out to you why this is a faulty line of reasoning?

Damage is fucking damage. Whenever the greater rocking occured the bridge of the Scimitar was fucking sparking and consoles blowing up. Internal systems were also being damaged. The E-E was causing system failures on the Scimitar. The Valdores were a minor nuicance.

You are getting this from where exactly? At only 464 meters long, it doesn't nearly match the tonnage of previous heavy cruisers, so a GCS would still have the greater capability for armament then the Akira assuming equal hardware.

The GCS is limited by its mission. The Akira is pure warship and has 15 fucking launchers whereas the Galaxy has 2.

Proof?

Reread the fucking thread. This has already been covered.

Proof? If the Defiant class was so great, how come they are not a widespread design, even towards the end of the Dominion War? I only recall seeing four Defiant-class ships during any point in Star Trek which are the Defiant, the second Defiant, and the two ships in "Message in a Bottle".

God your ignorance is stunning. DS9 had 3 Defiants in the same screenshot for crying outloud. Anyone who bothered to watch DS9 would see the Defiant has a hell of a lot more endurance given it can continue to fight extremely effectively even with shields out. No other ship retains this ability.

Yes I wonder how they won. The Prometheus had already taken damage from the Federation and the Romulans and it had already fired upon the Federation fleet, yet it tore the D'deridex class it fired on apart on its first pass, yet it is a remarkably small ship. You want to explain to me how the Federation could build such a small ship that could defeat the enemy so handily, yet it was always on somewhat equal footing in engagements with the enemy during the Dominion War? What are you suggesting, that a single new ship that is a paltry 415 meters long is somehow several times more powerful than Starfleets previous top of the line warship?

The Prometheus is using the most advanced weapons and is actualy a LARGE ship. Its larger then the Interpid and this makes it in the top 1/3 for ships in Starfleet. It has THREE warp cores giving it significantly more firepower for its phasers as well as having the new regenerative shields meaning it can take far more punishment then any other ship pound for pound save possibly the Defiant.

Yes it did, which is precicely the problem we have here. The Romulans had three top of the line battleships at the battle while the Federation had four MUCH smaller vessels there, which didn't even use most of their availible firepower (no quantum torpedos fired, only a fraction of the Akira's fifteen launchers used) which means that the D'deridex class is SEVERELY underpowered compared to its Federation counterparts.

No torpedoes shown visualy fired =! no torpedoes fired

Get that straight. Just because you didn't see torpedoes fired doesn't mean they weren't fired. A single Akira has more firepower then two Warbirds. A Defiant has roughly the same firepower. That directly matches the Romulan power. You might find this absurd, but the Romulans were starting to lag behind. The D'Deridex is still powerful, but it was being used in the WRONG MISSION. I already detailed how an inferior force can defeat Romulan ships in fleet scale battle because Romulan ships are NOT designed for that type of fighting. This does not make them weaker, just different.

I ask you again, do you think three Soverigns or even three War GCS's would have lost this battle in the Romulan's place?

You never asked this question dumbass. And three War GCSs would have faired better because they have better general fighting capability. They could have lost, but its not garunteed. Three Sovereigns would have stomped them. Then again, Sovereigns are roughly twice as powerful as an Akira and three times as powerful as a Defiant.

Here is where your argument falls apart. Let's look at the problems:

1) You have contradicted yourself by saying that the Galaxy has roughly 1/3 the forward firepower of the Soverign. Earlier in this thread you said:

That isn't a contradiction you nitwit.

Wow, you just shot yourself in the foot huh? You think 1/3 the forward firepower is not grossly less powerful then a Soverign? Since almost all the Star Trek battle we have seen come down to forward firepower (exactly how many time have we seen the E-D use it vast array of aft weapons compared to the forward one?) that is a severe drawback of the Galaxy-class (at least pre-War refit).

In 1-1 battles forward firepower is important. In multi ship engagements when its possible to become intertwined, displaced firepower becomes MUCH more important. For fucks sake, I already covered these issues. Read the fucking thread.

2) You know how strong the Valdore's disruptors are huh? Bravo! Please, do tell HOW you arrived at this conclusion?

Visual comparison to damage taking on the Scimitar.

You already did, and it hasn't helped your argument much now has it?

EDIT: I should probably also note that I'm not taking a side on this argument one way or the other. I'm asking you to prove you assertions and if you can, I'll be glad to conceed the argument.

In other words your back pedaling because you don't have any argument to stand on.

[Chris OFarrell]

I would add a little point, in DS9's final episode, in the big battle Worf says they are down to ONLY 45 Quantum Torpedoes, but we never saw a single one fired. Funny that.

And the Promethesus packs the firepower of a Sovereign into a far smaller frame. Its slightly larger then an Intrepid, with Ablative Armour, 3 Warp Cores and a faster speed at warp to boot, even in its standard mode.

According to Rick S (and somewhat backed up in Endgame), a second version of the Promethesus (Promethesus-B) was selected to go into full scale production. 25% bigger, non seperating. Which would be even more stupidly powerful.

[Metrion Cascade]

I would add a little point, in DS9's final episode, in the big battle Worf says they are down to ONLY 45 Quantum Torpedoes, but we never saw a single one fired. Funny that.

And the Promethesus packs the firepower of a Sovereign into a far smaller frame. Its slightly larger then an Intrepid, with Ablative Armour, 3 Warp Cores and a faster speed at warp to boot, even in its standard mode.

According to Rick S (and somewhat backed up in Endgame), a second version of the Promethesus (Promethesus-B) was selected to go into full scale production. 25% bigger, non seperating. Which would be even more stupidly powerful.

Why would it be more powerful? It wouldn't have the combat surface area of a separated Prometheus (the original having many weapons which are hidden in joined mode), or have any reason to carry multiple warp cores. The Prometheus is basically three ships made to fit together.

And what evidence is there that the Prometheus is as powerful as a Sovereign?

[The Kernel]

Alyeska, I'm going to get my Nemesis DVD back from my brother and get some screencaps later tonight so that we can properly establish the facts of this battle as I'm not going to argue this from memory in this much detail. I'll get back to you tonight on this.

[Chris OFarrell]

Why would it be more powerful? It wouldn't have the combat surface area of a separated Prometheus (the original having many weapons which are hidden in joined mode),

...Yeah, now those weapons would all be positioned on the OUTSIDE all the time. Plus being 25% larger, it would have a greater surface area for more weapons emplacements.

or have any reason to carry multiple warp cores.

Yes it would. Because it WORKS. They get more power that way for weapons, shields and drive. Not to mention redundency. There is no reason to drop the multiple warp cores.

The Prometheus is basically three ships made to fit together.

And sucks because of it, its structualy nowhere near as stable as a normal ship that doesn't seperate. Not to mention it loses a moderate amount of internal space to the closed hulls and docking clamps. And no gaps in the ablative armour thanks to hull joining.

And what evidence is there that the Prometheus is as powerful as a Sovereign?

Quite a bit. The ship can blast a De'Deradax into lots of little bits in about five seconds with its phasers. It can punch through a 3rd flight Nebula's full shields in the same time and disable it a shot later. It can survive direct salvos from multiple warbirds and an Akira / Defiants, regenerating the shield damage at a high rate of speed.

This puts it clearly well above the Galaxy/Nebula level of combat ability and into the relm of the Sovereign. Its a purpose designed warship, no a hybrid (even a more military hybrid) like a Sovereign. Though the Sovereign Mark II like the E-E was upgraded to also appears to have regenerative shields.