Transporter Reliability Myths

[Mr Bean]

Allow me to acutal quote Wongs website and save us some time
The entire thing is here
http://www.stardestroyer.net/Empire/Tec ... raxis.html
Heres what we want

What is subspace? According to the TM, subspace is another "strata" of the space-time continuum. We can derive several conclusions about the often-abused Federation term known as "subspace", based on canon observations

Jammers Wonk with the Space-Time Continuum, Fly close to a SW Jammer and it feels like your moving through mud as its described

The Varisos points
1.

Energy, and by extension, mass, can interact with objects in realspace even when it is in subspace. We know this because a long-range subspace sensor ping would be utterly useless if it did not reflect off an object in realspace.

2.

Subspace is probably collinear with realspace, ie- all points in subspace are coincident with points in realspace. We know this because subspace sensors can determine both distance and direction information.

3.

The interaction of subspace mass/energy with objects in realspace must be a weak interaction. We know this because objects in subspace can move through objects in realspace with only moderate damage, such as the Rutian terrorists who suffered only mild cellular damage from subspace transport through solid rock

Keep those three points in mind
10.

Both Federation and Imperial communications systems employ "subspace" transmissions, according to the TM and the SWEGWT. Although it is possible that this is a mere coincidence of terminology, this suggests that they are based on the same technology. The limitations are similar: according to the aforementioned sources, both Imperial and Federation subspace transceivers have a range in the 1 to 100 light-year range (25 for a GCS, and 100 for an ISD).

Any Questions So far?

A few more that might help

Armed with the preceding facts about subspace, we can deduce several things about the nature of subspace

It would be inadvisable to develop a subspace transporter system, because the interaction between subspace mass/energy and realspace mass/energy, however weak, would still cause damage to cellular tissues. In "High Ground", the Rutian Ansata terrorists' dimensional transport system may have been a subspace device, in which case its behaviour would have been consistent with this prediction. Even if the Ansata dimensional transport system was not based on subspace, the behaviour of subspace sensors indicates that subspace energy must interact with realspace energy.

Happy?
Subspace still reacts with Real-space, Not alot but thats enough to mess things up with Shielding, Jamming and Hull Plates
So the Big Subspace Bomb of DoomTM as its been held since the first of Wongs website, While a Nice idea
WONT WORK

Second to Darkling

They dont block every piece of energy and all matter.

WHAT DONT They Block?
Thirdly as stated above its not somthing either side is unfamilar with, SW Communcations for bob sake are based on it
And What Are Jammers used for fokes
THATS RIGHT JAMMING COMMUNCATIONS!
Give up Go home, This point has been beat to death and nothing your gonna pull out will change that

[Mr Bean]

Also a follow-up
When shields are Up
Long Range-Comms are down, This is held over and over agian in EU, the only exceptions are when they have repeaters OUTSIDE the Shields

Oh and What are Comms based on?
SUBSPACE


Realy whats left to say

[TheDarkling]

Actually no Hyperspace comms are the main comms according to WEG.

Yes a Weak interaction - ST shields dont block it so SW wont.

ST has subspace jamming but this wasnt put ofrth as an option ergo jamming doesnt work.

Is it useful for troop transport? no

Big bomb of death against ships? Likely

Against planets? yes

[Master of Ossus]

I fully understand the mechanism behind subspace transporters (at least, the theoretical method of conducting such an operation). I do not understand how such a tactic could be viable given the following conditions.

1. SW shields do not operate under the same "anti-graviton" principle that ST shields operate under. Your statement that SW ships could not be ready for an attack they had never expected can be equally well answered by saying that ST ships could not operate their transporters against a target they had never seen before.
2. By Darkling's own admission, SW ships DO use subspace for communications. This indicates that such a method is available to them and already understood. If they DO use subspace as a form of backup communications, such communications would also need to be jammable in order for a Base Delta Zero Operation to go on as it is described in the books.
3. SW ships pump out tremendous amounts of jamming on all frequencies, which, if SW ships DO use subspace transmissions occasionally, would indicate that the jamming also involves subspace.
4. SW ships, even while not jamming, interfere significantly with their environments by creating ambient radiation, which has been known to affect SF scanners in the past. This would make a subspace transport far more difficult, although we are not sure what methods (if any) SF would take to correct with the problem (would they simply have to get closer, change their scanners, etc.)

[SirNitram]

Master of Ossus: The shields dont block everything.

SirNitram: I have and I even gave you the quote about it being used for emergency purposes.

And I showed you the quote of the ISD's subspace capabilities. Wow, it can scan every single part of Subspace in three hours. Yea, SURE that's a backup system.

[SirNitram]

I fully understand the mechanism behind subspace transporters (at least, the theoretical method of conducting such an operation). I do not understand how such a tactic could be viable given the following conditions.

1. SW shields do not operate under the same "anti-graviton" principle that ST shields operate under. Your statement that SW ships could not be ready for an attack they had never expected can be equally well answered by saying that ST ships could not operate their transporters against a target they had never seen before.

Star Trek ships do not use gravity in their shields. If they did, space would curve around them and so would light. It does not, therefore they don't use graviton shields. Deal with it.

[TheDarkling]

SirNitram: The fact that its stated to be a back system is the first point.

The second is thats a hell of alot of freq to jam.

Third subspace transporters may be deeper into subspace than comms (outside of the scanned subspace comms range) - as Geordi doesnt even entire the idea that subspace comms jamming will work.

[SirNitram]

SirNitram: The fact that its stated to be a back system is the first point.

The second is thats a hell of alot of freq to jam.

Third subspace transporters may be deeper into subspace than comms (outside of the scanned subspace comms range) - as Geordi doesnt even entire the idea that subspace comms jamming will work.

1) If the backup comm scanner of an ISD can scan every realm of subspace in 3 hours, I'd hate to see their primary comm scanner.

2) Yes, it is. That's why you should bow down to the ISD.

3) What part of all of subspace didn't you understand?

[Mr Bean]

The second is thats a hell of alot of freq to jam

Know how many Radio Frequencys there are?
Know how many we can Jam?
Its a whole hell of alot to
Aegis Ships Manage it just fine

[IDMR]

I see Mr. Bean has bought into the "Imperials have defenses against attacks they've never even heard of" school lock, stock and lederhosen. lol

Oh, so if a battleship has never seen, or been designed with, cruise missiles in mind, their armour belt must be entirely ineffective against them, then?

[SirNitram]

I see Mr. Bean has bought into the "Imperials have defenses against attacks they've never even heard of" school lock, stock and lederhosen. lol

Oh, so if a battleship has never seen, or been designed with, cruise missiles in mind, their armour belt must be entirely ineffective against them, then?

It's the Trekkie mentality again. They never have countermeasures against whatever they face this week, so they beleive this is normal. The Empire, of course, doesn't pussyfoot around with technology-specific counters, it employs raw power.

[Mr Bean]

No edit button gets to me sometimes

Third subspace transporters may be deeper into subspace

DEEPER?
WTF is This?
Since when does Subspace have Levels? Your Grasping at Straws
Second Its easeir to Jam than to scan, Thats a Fact, SW,ST or RL deal with it

SW knows what subspace is, They use it for Communcation, Shields Stop all Communcation, Subspace is one of those Communcations systems
This might look like if A is true then B is True then C is true
But its not
Another way of saying it
WHY SUBSPACE TRANSPORTERS DON'T WORK
1. SW knows what Subspace is, Its not UNKNOW
2. SW uses Subspace for Communcation
3. SW Can Jam near all Communcations at a Distance and all Communcations when you get closer to a ship(Ref X-Wing Seris, COPL, DFR)
4. No Long Range Communcation by an ISD when its shields are up,
5. ISD's have Subspace Communcations
Based on these five facts we can pretty safly say that Subspace Transporters won't work VS SW ships

[Mr Bean]

Going off for the night SirNitram, IDMR I'm counting on you to hold back the idiots till morning
night all

[Master of Ossus]

I fully understand the mechanism behind subspace transporters (at least, the theoretical method of conducting such an operation). I do not understand how such a tactic could be viable given the following conditions.

1. SW shields do not operate under the same "anti-graviton" principle that ST shields operate under. Your statement that SW ships could not be ready for an attack they had never expected can be equally well answered by saying that ST ships could not operate their transporters against a target they had never seen before.

Star Trek ships do not use gravity in their shields. If they did, space would curve around them and so would light. It does not, therefore they don't use graviton shields. Deal with it.

Why am I under attack? I was just referencing to the anti-graviton particles that the TM, Encyclopedia, etc. provide. I'm on your side, here, too. I'm just saying that SW shields clearly have capabilities that ST shields don't have, and that they might be able to stop idiotic retreats into subspace, too.

[TheDarkling]

MrBean: Yes subspace has levels Ref Schisms.

Subspace comms jamming doesnt work against subtrans.

Since SW doesnt have differing levels of subspace prehaps thery only use one, which would be fine for comms - speculation.

1.Jamming doesnt work because it isnt used.
2.Thus subtrans probably travels in a deeper subspace level than comms and sensors.
3.Imps only have one subspace level thus they cant block something on another subspace level.
4.Imps cant block subspace transporters.

We have been over this before and it simply degenrated because some people didnt want it to be true.

Im going to watch tv i might respond again if anything relevant is posted.

[Master of Ossus]

It's also possible to jam A LOT more frequencies than it is to scan for the same system at one time (otherwise, such tactics in RL would be unmanageable unless you already had vastly more resources than your opponents, which would eliminate the entire purpose). If a SD can scan EVERY subspace frequency, then it would be fairly easily to jam them all. This would be especially true because the Federation's scanners are so underpowered by SW standards, so it would not take as much jamming on each frequency for a subspace transporter to be stopped.

BTW, how the hell can something be deeper in subspace than anything else? Can radiowaves be "deeper" in the radio frequency than others? Can a microwave be deeper into the microwave spectrum than anything else? Are you suggesting that subspace is some kind of pit that the Federations can crawl into and hide in while covering themselves with "shallower" levels of subspace? WTF.

[Master of Ossus]

MrBean: Yes subspace has levels Ref Schisms.

Subspace comms jamming doesnt work against subtrans.

Since SW doesnt have differing levels of subspace prehaps thery only use one, which would be fine for comms - speculation.

1.Jamming doesnt work because it isnt used.
2.Thus subtrans probably travels in a deeper subspace level than comms and sensors.
3.Imps only have one subspace level thus they cant block something on another subspace level.
4.Imps cant block subspace transporters.

We have been over this before and it simply degenrated because some people didnt want it to be true.

Im going to watch tv i might respond again if anything relevant is posted.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

JAMMING IS USED, DUMBASS. If it wasn't, how the hell could there have been several incidents of jamming and interference IN THE MOVIES!

How the hell can there be multiple levels of subspace? Are there multiple layers of realspace, too, that do not interact with each other?

Your logic is essentially "SW can't block subspace because they don't. SW can't block subspace transporters because they don't block subspace."

The problem for you is that they do! Otherwise, how could they BDZ things WITHOUT WITNESSES?

[Master of Ossus]

Go ahead and watch your TV. Maybe you can find multiple levels, there, too.

Different dimensions do not have multiple levels, and how do you know that ISD's don't work on those levels, also (if they even exist)?

Notice how he chickens out when he realizes that his previously foolproof "evidence" against SW has failed?

[SirNitram]

I fully understand the mechanism behind subspace transporters (at least, the theoretical method of conducting such an operation). I do not understand how such a tactic could be viable given the following conditions.

1. SW shields do not operate under the same "anti-graviton" principle that ST shields operate under. Your statement that SW ships could not be ready for an attack they had never expected can be equally well answered by saying that ST ships could not operate their transporters against a target they had never seen before.

Star Trek ships do not use gravity in their shields. If they did, space would curve around them and so would light. It does not, therefore they don't use graviton shields. Deal with it.

Why am I under attack? I was just referencing to the anti-graviton particles that the TM, Encyclopedia, etc. provide. I'm on your side, here, too. I'm just saying that SW shields clearly have capabilities that ST shields don't have, and that they might be able to stop idiotic retreats into subspace, too.

To be frank I debate anyone whose statements contradict what is shown. Don't take offense, just deal with the fact no gravity was used or harmed in the making of ST shields.

[Master of Ossus]

Sorry, SirNitram. I was just trying to show that SW and ST shields used different mechanisms (which the Trekkies started the thread by denying). You're right about the ships and shields, but I still think that they are different mechanisms.

BTW you have a cool avatar.

[Anarchist Bunny]

It's already been admitted that radiation transporter problems are ussually because of sensor interference. So what if Jamming doesn't block Subtrans, they'll have no idea where they are beaming if their sensors are JAMED!

[Spanky The Dolphin]

Darkling, it's obvious that you got in way over your head in this thread, and had to resort to something that borderlines semantics or hemming and hawing. I have yet to see you actually contribute something of substance to a discussion.

Actually, you seem to do this a lot, and it actually does more harm than good. A lot of your many posts are practically nitpicks or fussing. You are constantly saying stuff like "I don't know", "I haven't seen the episode in ages, but...", and "I will assume they all work the same." IMHO, you seem to have little idea what you're truely talking about (like that damn "DS9 Big Bomb of Death".)

A neutral opinion is good, but not when it can't be backed up by knowledge. You've survived semi-BSing your way so far, but it won't last forever.

BTW: I know that this is unintentional, but your posts often come across as "Me too" posts, like you're some kind of toadie.

(Sorry, I just had to get this out of my system.)

[TheDarkling]

"subspace has an infinate number of domains its like a huge honey comb with an infinate number of cells" - Geordi.

"something from that deep in subspace" - Geordi


The above would indicate that either subspace isnt the same in both verses or that the SW only uses one as you point out a normal radio signal doesnt have depth.

ST jammers werent used is what a meant - Geordi was asked if he could block the Subtrans and he couldnt - SF can block subspace sensors and comms so therefore these methods dont work.

The copnclusion to reach it either subspace transporters cant be jammed or that subspace transporters dont use the same domain of subspace as comms and sensors.

Either way jamming doesnt work against it.

I would theorise that comms and sensors use the "nearest" level of subspace since it has the closest link to real space
Now nothing in real space or the level employed by the subspace comms can block subtrans thus the reasonable conclusion is that the subtrans uses a "deeper" level of subspace.


My evidence couldnt have been foolproof could you failed to understand it.

[Spanky The Dolphin]

Aditional:

Darkling, please put effort into typing!!

Jesus, I can understand Mr. Bean just fine, but I can barely understand you.

[TheDarkling]

Spanky The Dolphin: I brought the Subtrans to light so it isnt "me too"ing.

I said I havent seen the endgame episode in ages so I couldnt quite remember - sorry I should have lied and said I remembered it all.

I didnt get in over my head and as the quotes above prove I do know what im talking about - subspace does have levels thus everyone else doesnt know what they are talking about.

The big bomb of doom wasnt refutted - I was told it was hyperbole when it clearly wasnt and the person saying it didnt even know what episode I was refering to - he simply said "its impossible"

anarchistbunny: I agree sensors probably would be jammed, thus blind transporting.