Advice on dealing with Borg Wankers

[wjs7744]

Well, does the Empire really need a larger fleet? It isn't as if they have to worry about invaders from across the border, and the speed of hyperdrive means that a small number of ISDs can project power over a large area. It isn't like they need to keep one over every planet, any more than the US needs to keep an armoured brigade in every town.

Basically, what I'm saying is that 25,000 ISDs (plus a lot of other ships too) are capable of controlling a large area while dispersed, yet are fast enough to concentrate a large force at an arbitrary point at very short notice. Do they need more, then?

[Connor MacLeod]

The Empire Pre-Yavin was one that was still largely a remnant of the Clone Wars. The Senate didn't want Palpy to have too much power to be a threat (they didnt want anyone to) so they naturally wouldn't let or want anyone to engage in a massive military buildup without good reason (parrtly why Palpatine continued to use "Separatist holdouts and alien threats" as well as the REbellion to maintain his military authority) because then they woudl be at risk of conquest (by this time, recall, Kashyyyk had been subjugated.) Palpy managed to vastly incease the size of the Imperial Navy over the Republic Navy (by several times) but that was it. That's why he went with the Death Star - something so big, so nasty, that noone could possibly threaten him.

Likewise, alot of the Member systems of the Empire, just as like in the Republic, had fairly substantial (if short ranged) defense fleets (places like Kuat, or Corellia.) which often included huge ships of their own. They didn't need (or want) a massive, independently controlled government navy. The New REpublic later tried this same practice, though it failed for them rather spectacularly (The Black Fleet Crisis to Hand of Thrawn Eras.)

The speed and scope of SW industrial capability also plays a factor - SW has a fuckload of shipyards everywhere (nevermind the potential for decentralized construction of automated construction) - they can build ships so quickly and in such numbers that there's really no need to keep a fleet if one is needed.

As far as the 25,000 ISD figure goes, bear in mind that that IS for ISDs only, or rather a partticular subset of Star Destroyers. It does not include larger ships (SSDs, the Battlecruisers from the marvel comics, Giel's ships, star cruisers, or the communications ship), or smaller ships (Venators, Victoryies, Acclamators etc.) or even ships roughly the same size but of different configurations (Tectors, the interdictor Star Destroyers, Alleigance-classes, etc.) And we know of other sources (the Imperial sourcebook amont others) that indicate that the Empire had hundreds of thousands, if not millions of "Star Destroyer" sized vessels (which in context largely seemed to mean ISD-sized ships, since Victories and Venators were larggely relegated to secondary roles and had been replaced by that point.)

[OmegaGuy]

Wasn't the quote "25,000 Star Destroyers" not "25,000 ISDs". That would include Star Destroyers of all classes, wouldn't it?

[Darth Yoshi]

It could be argued that the term "Star Destroyer" is generally used elsewhere in the EU is refer specifically to the ISD classes, and that's what the 25000 refers to as well, but I'll admit it's not exactly a sound argument.

[Connor MacLeod]

Wasn't the quote "25,000 Star Destroyers" not "25,000 ISDs". That would include Star Destroyers of all classes, wouldn't it?

there are, to my knowledge, two references for the 25,000 figure:

- The first is from the old Sansweet SW encyclopedia. The entry for that was clearly discussing the mile-long WEG "Star Destroyer". The only other craft mentioned in the same entry was the SSDs, but they're not "STar Destroyers" and their mention comes AFTEr the 25,000 figure is mentioned. In context, "Star Destroyer" referred to ISD.

And lastly, the Victory-class had its own separate entry.

- The Second entry is Pellaeon's thoughts in the beginning of "Spectre of the Past", when he's arguing with his second in command. In that example ( as well as throughout the duology) the context of "Star Destroyer" is taken to mean ISDs like the Chimera - those 200 ISDS represent 8 sector groups for the eight sectors remaining to the IR.

As a side note, its indicated that the Empire held 1 millions ystems as opposed to 1000 - and that those represent 8 sectors. Scaling up implies 8000 sectors, which would work out roughly to a Sector Group of at least 192,000 Star Destroyers (or 200,000, since you can also just scale up from 200 ISDs for 1000 sectors up to 1 million sectors.) Which would be also consistent with the ISB entry, the implications from ROTS (At least 6,000 Sectors in the Empire/REpublic.) and other sources. (The DE Radio drama, for example, mentions the Emperor unleashing "hundreds of thousands"
of ships on the galaxy, for example, which paralleled the vision Leia had of Luke unleashing the might of the Imperial Military in the comic.)

And as a final note, I will add that both Spectre of the Past and the Star Wars Encylopedia phrase the number as being "over 25,000" Star Destroyers, which suggests it is not neccearily an upper limit, but more of an approximation. The only real distinction is whether It refers to the Imperial-class Star Destroyer and its variants collectively, or if the number is for a particular subclass (eg, ISD-2 variants) and does not include others (IE older Imperator-class ships.)

[Connor MacLeod]

Oh, and on the issue of construction. Spectre of the Past also gives one "major" shipyard (Yaga Minor) under the IR's control. That suggests the Empire would have had hundrds if not thousands of "Major" shipyards for the Empire proper, as well as the numerous "minor" yards in each sector (the ones frrom Black Fleet Crisis, at least 2-4 per sector).

As previously noted, with some 8000 Sectors minimum, the "minor yards" alone could produce hundreds of thousands of ISDs. With 1000 "major" Yards, there coudl be tens or hundreds of thousands more, depending on how big major yards are (Given how large yards seem to be able to easily build scores if not huundreds of ISDs, like Fondor and Kuat, it seems likely that its more towards the higher end.)

The Mon Cals could build a STar cruiser in 6 months (from the Rebel Alliance Sourcebook) and Fondor built the Executor in about 6 months, so it shoudl be quite easy (plausible) for the Empire to output hundreds of thousands if not millions of ISDS within a year or less. Hell, Gyndine under wartime conditions in the New REpublic (not nearly as well organized as the empire) could build dozens of ISD-scale vessels in well under a year.

[OmegaGuy]

Okay, all I remember was Pellaeon saying that at its height the Empire had 25,000 Star Destroyers. Thanks for clearing that up.

[Patrick Degan]

Ah, yes, the deflector weapon energy blast is of such magnitude that Commander Shelby pointed out that unless they increased the deflector's range it would completely destroy the Enterprise as well.

But it's still just a technobabble effect, right Batman?

Yes it is.

The concept of the improvised deflector beam hinged on frequency modulation —specifically in a high narrow bandwidth which a Borg shield was supposedly vulnerable to.

A brute-force weapon (such as a turbolaser or the Death Star superlaser) simply pumps out enough raw power to blast through any energy shield regardless of its frequency.

[Darth Wong]

Where it was less powerful than a chemical explosion, right?

I think we can reasonably say that 'no visible effect whatsoever, at all' rates below a chemical explosion, yes.

It wasn't just the lack of a visual interaction. They actually used a chemical explosion later in that episode in order to accomplish what the deflector-dish beam could not.

[Aquatain]

How the hell are the Borg gonna assimilate the Empire when they can't even successfully assimilate the Federation?

[DarthShady]

How the hell are the Borg gonna assimilate the Empire when they can't even successfully assimilate the Federation?

They won't.

[Aquatain]

How the hell are the Borg gonna assimilate the Empire when they can't even successfully assimilate the Federation?

They won't.

Well that was kind of like my argument, Star Trek it self is a testament to how incredible bad the Borg is at assimilation somebody willing to fight back.

[Darth Onasi]

How the hell are the Borg gonna assimilate the Empire when they can't even successfully assimilate the Federation?

a) The Federation are The Good Guys, the Empire are The Bad Guys, and The Bad Guys always lose.
b) The Borg "weren't really serious" about assimilating the Federation.
c) The Federation is super-duper-orgasmically powerful. Their navigational deflectors could stop a Death Star superlaser you know, that's why the Borg would win against the Empire.
d) The Rebels beat the Empire, therefore the Borg can, because even the Maquis are more powerful than the Rebels because.. um.. we say so.
e) The Borg would time travel to the future to get technology from their future selves then time travel to the past and blow up the Star Wars galaxy before it formed!

Yes, those are all arguments I've heard over the years.

[Peptuck]

Reminds me of a Borg wanker who said the Borg would win by simply traveling back in time to when Anakin was a kid and assassinating him then and there.

I responded by telling him that A) the Borg have a very bad track record for assassinations, and B) asking that this would harm Palpatine's rise to power and weaken the Republic/Empire's overwhelming tech advantage....how?

[Batman]

Reminds me of a Borg wanker who said the Borg would win by simply traveling back in time to when Anakin was a kid and assassinating him then and there.
I responded by telling him that A) the Borg have a very bad track record for assassinations, and B) asking that this would harm Palpatine's rise to power and weaken the Republic/Empire's overwhelming tech advantage....how?

It would certainly not do dick about Wars' numerical and tech andvantage but it likely WOULD do something about Palpy's rise to power-Anakin won't be there to stop Mace Windu when he confronts Palpatine in ROTS.

[wjs7744]

You seem to be assuming that everything else would go exactly the same up to that point. Why?

[OmegaGuy]

More importantly, how would the Borg even know about these events in the past?

[Batman]

You seem to be assuming that everything else would go exactly the same up to that point. Why?

Feel free to show HOW events would go up to that point without Anakin around.

[wjs7744]

Well, for starters he wouldn't kill Count Dooku on the Invisible Hand. I'm not suggesting that I have a particular preference when it comes to predictions of how the story would be different, but killing Anakin as a kid will have more of an impact that simply "He won't be there to save Palpatine".

[Darth Onasi]

You seem to be assuming that everything else would go exactly the same up to that point. Why?

Feel free to show HOW events would go up to that point without Anakin around.

It'd make a difference considering it's Anakin who tells Windu that Palpatine is a Sith in the first place, leading to the confrontation.

[Batman]

Fair enough objections. I never claimed events would unfold the way they do without Anakin. Since we don't know how events would unfold without Anakin and thus can't be certain Palpatines rise to power would happen to begin with, I picked an event where ASSUMING the events unfolded as we saw them (other than for the absence of Anakin) said absence would decidedly put a crimp in old Palpy's ambitions.
For all we know Anakin's absence might have crippled Palpatine's plans as early as him not being available to win that Pod Race on Tattooine. The point is, we haven't the foggiest.

[Davey]

A repost of his arguments would be worthwhile just for humor value.

Thanks, just give me one moment, Peptuck. This could take a minute. I have to repost this in sections, it’s too long to be submitted all at the same time.

Sorry I wasn’t able to get this up earlier. I’ve been busy and it’s been getting harder to keep up with my day-to-day responsibilities and also keep up my netlife. But, if I make a promise I don’t want to back out on it. So, here we go.

It all started with a debate on Samus Aran versus Master Chief. I’ll cut through that because that was mostly fanboy wanking on either side (there’s at least one on every forum…) and get right to the Borg part that he started with a one-line thread hijack.

He starts us off:

The Borg win in Star Wars vs Star Trek.

Someone else put in:

Maybe one of you guys can. But until I get precise values and resources that are not laden with viruses, I'm just going to stick by "Samus' gear is undoubtedly far more advanced than John's, and has massive arsenals of physical and energy-based weaponry, and so would pwn him most unholily."

I replied:

That's the same thing trekkies said about Star Wars. "Oh yeah, Trek is undoubtedly more advanced than Wars because they've got technology that can analyze anything or fix anything by simply flashing a red light at the right frequency!" In the end, it boiled down to superior firepower in the versus debate, and while Wars didn't have the flashing red lights, shiny hulls and awesome-sounding technobabble Trek did, it had firepower Trek could never hope to achieve, which could be proven numerically with incontrovertible mathematical evidence backing it up. Flashing lights and cool beams don't matter - what they produce does. And that has to be calculated.

To be honest I'll say again I don't care who wins the fight - Samus Aran, Master Chief, Sam Fisher, November Terra, Solid Snake, StarWars Kid, the guy across the street, whoever. I couldn't care less about which fictional character takes a nonexistent crown. But one thing I could care about is seeing people hype up the superiority of their favoured universe without proper evidence. I offered to help you do the number crunching to prove her superiority, and if you can find me examples of where her fantastic weapons have acted upon mundane objects, such as astroids that offer will stand. I also offered you a place to put it so others could look up to it. And I don't want to hear excuses while you still insist your hyping is justified and assert the 'pwnage' of Samus.

The Borg win in Star Wars vs Star Trek.

Show me your calculations to support this or your figures.


I'll take the lazy man's method and consult the Next Generation Tech Manual and Starwars Episode II Incredible Cross sections, thanks to Michael Wong of http://stardestroyer.net

For Light guns, the Star Wars Acclamator Troop Transport can put out 300 million GW, assuming 1 shot every 2 seconds.

The Enterprise D's main Phasers pyut out 3.6GW (5.1MW per emitter) Their Photon Torpedoes are 64 Megatons maximum.

The Acclamator Troop Transport's output is 2.4 million megatons (200 Gigatons per shot from each turret, with a total of twelve turrets)

Shield eat dissipation for the Acclamator is 70 Trillion GW.

Star trek doesn't look so good, with theirs at 3311 GW maximum.

And that is just a lowly troop transport. Not a Star Destroyer.


In terms of the movies, Jango Fett's seismic charges destroy asteroids in what appears to be a radius of five kilometres (conservative guess) in Attack of the Clones. And meanwhile, according to Riker back in Trek, it would take the entire payload of photon torpdoes to destroy a single hollow asteroid in "Pegasus."

The Borg can adapt to phaser fire by adjusting the frequencies they can absorb the phaser fire. Using frequencies to separate molecules and straight destructive energy is different. The Borg are not indestructible: Captain Picard machinegunned two on the holodeck using a Tommy Gun. The Enterprises' shields last long enough for the crew to give long, unnecessarily boring and overdramatized technobabble damage reports. If it takes that long to overload 3311 GW, just imagine how long it'd take to overload 70 trillion GW. Would they do it? Maybe. Maybe not. More likely a Star Destroyer's heavy turbolasers would tear it to pieces well before then. The Acclamator, a troop transport, stomps the Enterprise-D. The numbers say so, and they're official and published. A Star Destroyer is much bigger than the Acclamator and it is a purpose-specific battleship. And to give you an idea of the scale, the Acclamator's guns already outstrip the Enterprise's many times over.

Wars has technology that can build a ship the size of a small moon that miraculously doesn't get crushed under its own gravity. The amount of materials needed to construct such a behemoth, not to mention all their other ships speaks for itself on how many worlds the Galactic Empire is made up of.

Do your math.


There are factions that could stomp Star Wars. They exist, just as factions exist that can stomp Halo, Metroid, Star Trek.

The Samus/MC debater replied:

Hey I agree with you whole-heartedly about the "making arguements without solid evidence" thing. I'm really against that. But, I'm in no position to compare and contrast Metroid and Halo; I'm only familiar with one universe. For instance, in FS, a captured Covenant flagship severely damages an asteroid a couple kilometers wide with a single plasma torpedo.

And then, of course, there's the whole superweapon-that-kills-all-life-in-the-galaxy thing... I wonder how many joules that'd be? @_@

My first remark was comparing, what I saw, as pure logic, albeit unsupported by numbers. The second one was a sarcastic closer. And the third was an actual statement of fact.

Look man, I'm very well aware of the number crunching thing you've been advertising on every single post since the one that started this whole thing. But if I don't have any numbers to crunch, then I can't really go to you for help. I couldn't find anything where Samus' beam weaponry was used on a "mundane" object; something we could use for relative measurements. I couldn't find any data on her suit, on the beam's power, or even what beam was used in the video.

So, if I had had numbers just screaming for a good crunching, I definately would've gone to you.

I sent him back

If you do not want to make arguments without first making solid evidence, don't slap down lines like this:

Samus's suit can vaporize a Pelican.
Hmm?

Without providing mathematical evidence, then post:

I'm just going to stick by "Samus' gear is undoubtedly far more advanced than John's, and has massive arsenals of physical and energy-based weaponry, and so would pwn him most unholily."

Right after posting:

In short: I cannot do this. I do not have the knowledge, resources, data, or, now, motivation to do this.

You made assertions you haven't verified and then backed out when it came time to, even though I offered to help you with the number crunching - the bulk of the grunt work. If you're going to make assertions like that, back 'em up. I'm not in much of a position to compare metroid either. But I don't assert the superiority of either universe without getting my evidence out first.


I posted a link to the figures on Star Wars Versus Star Trek.

Currently we have no means of fathoming the exact means that Halo operates because we have not actually seen it in action: whether it is 'a big stick,' like a giant hydrogen bomb that destroys everything with brute force, or like some kind of energy or other handwaved anti-life force that destroys life itself while leaving real estate intact like a neutron bomb remains to be seen - for me at least. On the bright side, if it was a 'big stick' type of weapon, at least that fits in with the 'big bang' theory nicely.

I will run calculations for the plasma torpedo once I can find my copy of First Strike, if I haven't lent it to someone. Knowing the manner it was destroyed in helps; vaporizing requires more energy than simply cracking the asteroid in half, then separating the pieces. It also requires energy to overcome the gravitational attraction the pieces have to each other. This is why you simply can’t 'crack' a planet in half or vaporize a planet or a similarly large piece of matter and expect it to blow apart. If you did, it'd just fall back together thanks to gravity and resolidify. It’s gonna be jumbled up beyond recognition, but it'd be whole, nonetheless. You also have to take into account the force it'd need to blow the chunks apart so fast and far enough so that they couldn't cohese back into one mass.

BorgBoy replies…

The Borg win because they posses adaptive shielding which render useless the weapons of everyone who opposes them.

The only possible argument you've got is "Borg shields don't block mass based weapons" but they do. There's a lot of inconsistency in the series, but its pretty clear that Borg adaptive shielding basicaly defeats everything.

More generally though, the Borg are a race which adapts the technology of their enemies to suite their own needs. So once they assimilate the death star they pretty much win.

Also, that the infamous tommy gun sequence is meaningless. The Tommy Gun is an energy weapon produced by the holodeck. Had there been 3 or 4 Borg in that scene instead of 2, they would have adapted.

The reason it takes the Borg so long to do anything is because the series would be over if the Borg really *wanted* to conquer the federation. They're more busy defeating dangerous super races like Species 8472.

The only advantage Star Wars has over Star Trek is the super nature of Star Wars light speed engines, which can traverse the entire galaxy in a matter of hours. However, the Borg trans-warp conduits do the same thing.


So anyway, Borg win.

First debater goes ahead…

Uh, hate to burst your bubble, but you're making the same mistakes I did. Convincing wording and persuasive logic aren't good enough to prove something; you need numbers and firm science. I did the same thing. :/

Borg wanker replies…

This is science fiction. It's make believe fantasy. It's not real. Therefore, logical suppositions are enough.

So, since I'm not making a statement about the nature of reality, when I say, "the Borg will win" you may want to take my knowledge into consideration.


That said, how about this 24 page thread from 4 years ago which covers all the points, links and topics about star wars vs star trek raised in this entire thread, and more.

The conclusion of all members involved in this debate was total agreement that THE BORG would devastate the entire Star Wars galaxy in a hellish inferno of death (given that Q cannot act- "Simply change the gravitation constant of the universe!"- and the Force- "The destructive power of this battle station is nothing compared with the power of the Force!"- is also inoperative).

I contacted one of the other guys I happen to know who might be more ‘in the know’ than I am. He doesn’t post here but we frequent Star Destroyer together.

I contacted <name removed>, the moderator and game organizer of <name removed>, and he sent me back this:

The Borg win because they posses adaptive shielding which render useless the weapons of everyone who opposes them.

Bullshit. The Borg never adapted, even over the course of months, to S8472’s weaponry. They are also defeated by routinely weapons that they haven’t had the opportunity to adapt to yet, so an ‘alpha strike’ against the entire infrastructure of the collective (easy due to the hyperspace advantage and logistical superiority of SW) becomes a choice strategy.

The only possible argument you've got is "Borg shields don't block mass based weapons" but they do. There's a lot of inconsistency in the series, but its pretty clear that Borg adaptive shielding basicaly defeats everything.

Outright lies. Worf and Data killed or disabled multiple Drones with blunt-force attacks, and Picard chewed through a pair with a Tommy Gun.

Moreover, S8472 seems to rely on melee attacks during boarding, and the Borg were never able to defend against them.

More generally though, the Borg are a race which adapts the technology of their enemies to suite their own needs. So once they assimilate the death star they pretty much win.

I’m pretty sure the Federation have been known to monkey with other races’ technology for their benefit on occasion.

Regardless, the concept of the Borg assimilating the Death Star is laughable; given the huge firepower gap and lack of planetary shields in ST, the Death Star could conceivably jump from system to system, ignoring Borg attacks and simply destroying every Borg-held planet, Transwarp hub, or array.

You have no infrastructure, you loose. It’s about that simple in real warfare.

Also, that the infamous tommy gun sequence is meaningless. The Tommy Gun is an energy weapon produced by the holodeck. Had there been 3 or 4 Borg in that scene instead of 2, they would have adapted.

Prove it.

The reason it takes the Borg so long to do anything is because the series would be over if the Borg really *wanted* to conquer the federation. They're more busy defeating dangerous super races like Species 8472.

The S8472 threat was nonexistent during TNG and over by the time of ST:FC. Besides which, claiming that they never really wanted to conquer the Federation is nothing but incompetence on their side.

The only advantage Star Wars has over Star Trek is the super nature of Star Wars light speed engines, which can traverse the entire galaxy in a matter of hours. However, the Borg trans-warp conduits do the same thing.

Transwarp is reliant on hubs, all of which could be located and destroyed within hours of an offensive.

Oh, and a couple other SW advantages that you missed… such as superior firepower by several orders of magnitude?

So anyway, Borg win.

No evidence, no victory.

The conclusion of all members involved in this debate was total agreement that THE BORG would devastate the entire Star Wars galaxy in a hellish inferno of death

They obviously have a minimal grasp of science, engineering, and military strategy. Skimming the thread I found a distinct lack of evidence and a lot of no-limits wanking. Moreover, the No-Force concept (see below) removes all respect I might have for their method of analysis.

(given that Q cannot act- "Simply change the gravitation constant of the universe!"-

Q has no reason TO act, he’s left Humanity on the verge of annihilation without batting an eyelid, and has never aided the Borg.

and the Force- "The destructive power of this battle station is nothing compared with the power of the Force!"- is also inoperative).

Among the most pointless assumptions I’ve ever heard of. Unlike “acts of Q”, Force-users have quantifiable powers and have shown every inclination to use them in a conflict.

If we take away the force, the Borg should have a similar (or similarly stupid) handicap… how about the ability to assimilate? Warp engines?

I don't see any numbers or any logical thinking, or even citations in your thread, just endless comparing and that all assumes the ships are on the same level of firepower and durability. They are not. Durasteel is not Tritanium, Tritanium is not Durasteel, Turbolasers are not Phasers, and Phasers are not Turbolasers.

This is science fiction. It's make believe fantasy. It's not real. Therefore, logical suppositions are enough.

It's Science fiction, but it involves science nonetheless. You've put yourself in a situation where you can't just handwave your problems away. In a comparison the world doesn't work like that. Your suppositions are not even logical. You've made assumptions: "Oh once they take over the death star." "Oh they've got shielding that absorbs everything." You have not even verified them.

So, since I'm not making a statement about the nature of reality, when I say, "the Borg will win" you may want to take my knowledge into consideration.

Then get your facts on the table and prove it. Right now all I see is posturing. If I want posturing I'll go visit a house of politics.

The law of Conservation of Energy is clear: energy cannot be created or destroyed. It can only be transformed into different types of energy. By that law, it would mean that the Borg's ability to transform or absorb the energy extends only as far as the power can take it. The movies and shows all show that the energy is not deflected but absorbed by a shield. The numbers in Wars are many times higher than Trek as I've pointed out with the comparison between the Acclamator and the Enterprise-D. The Borg ships were also damaged when Picard ordered the phasers to be fired at a random frequency. From this it's also evident that the Borg do not adapt to destructive energy itself, but the frequencies of phaser fire. The numbers in the Star Wars Incredible Cross Sections and Next Generation Tech Manual are hugely different.


This is all on Stardestroyer.net.
http://www.stardestroyer.net/tlc/Power/index.html
I'll briefly summarize it.

Now let's see what one of Wars' Turbolasers inflicts:
http://www.stardestroyer.net/tlc/Power/meltblt.jpg

http://www.stardestroyer.net/tlc/Charac ... lcblt2.jpg
An asteroid close to the falcon is turned into white hot vapour.

From the size of the falcon, we can estimate that it melted an asteroid approximately twenty metres in diameter and causes it to completely disappear - from that we can assume one thing: vaporization. Michael Wong's page shows the asteroid taking about eight or nine frames to disappear, so that translates into roughly a quarter of a second. Assuming that asteroid is twenty metres in diameter from the scale of the ships and roughly spherical, and assuming it's mostly iron (which is typical) it'd take about 30 terrajoules of energy to melt, and two hundred and fifty terrajoules to vaporize.
The volume would be approximately 3900 cubic metres, with a mass of close to thirty three million tons, and with a heat capacity of 450J/Kg. To melt it, you'd need to raise all that to a temperature of 1600 degrees centigrade. Vaporizing one kilogram of Iron will take 7.6 megajoules per kilogram. So that's about thirty terrajoules to melt, and two hundred and fifty terrajoules to vaporize.

Meanwhile, like I said, it would take the Enterprise's entire payload of torpedoes, the most powerful weapon the Enterprise has, to blow up a hollow five kilometre asteroid while Jango Fett's little patrol craft does the job effortlessly, and the Imperial Star Destroyers have the advantage of superior firepower many, many, many times over.

Back on the case of the Star Destroyer chasing the Millenium Falcon, the asteroid was not shattered or broken up - it was turned into red and white hot and dispersed into vapour by the turbolaser bolt. Look at the stills.

When Mr. Worf punches a borg in the head, he kills it. I don't see them adapting to physical punishment. Lasers are physical punishment. They heat stuff up until it blows.

I asked you to show me your math and your figures. Show me the figures.

More is pending. Just one second.

[Davey]

He came back again…

Sigh.

Read my link.

Mr Bill wrote:
Agreed. You seem to be resorting to this 'borg are invisible' tactic alot

All you've been doing is saying the same thing over and over again. "i can penetrate your shields with an ion cannon or physical projectiles". I could say that you're just reverting to the same tired old baseless argument over and over again, yourself. Knife

Mr Bill wrote:
and since your discussing evidence, why don't we go back to talking about your great Borg shields and mass- you've stated so far nothing more then a few absurd and inconclusive inffernces, coupled with a large inconsistancey. From that amount of 'evidence' I'm willing to give the luaded Borg shields not an inch of ground.

Absurd and inconclusive? Time to end this buisness right now, i am growing quite tired of it. If you keep tossing the same two issues at me, you're just going to get the same awnsers. Almost all of the evidence that i am about to present in this post, both myself and uranium have already presented in this thread. I am suprised that the logic has not sunk in by now.


Borg Drones vs Projectiles

1. This is a Star Fleet projectile weapon. The TR-116.

It fires a tritanium slug propelled by a simple chemical reaction. EG, this is a physical projectile. The pattern is on file on all federation starships and is redially available. The weapon was designed well before even the first encounter with the borg. Why was it never used against the borg in First Contact, even after all of that preperation and experience with the borg? Because they obviously easily adapt to physical weapons, and phasers with their variable frequencies offer the best chance at doing damage. There is no other logical conclusion.



2. Captian Picard on the holodeck using holographic bullets (these are not real - they are hologram backed by forcefield, eg energy) to shoot borg.

So, why didn't the captian simply use the Replecators to make soem REal projectile weapons to use against the borg? Jean Luc Picard, the most brilliant tactician in all of starfleet, and an EX borg himself along with his supercomputer sidekick data couldn't think of this? For the same reason that they did not use federation projectile weapons against the borg. They are inneffective, the borg will adapt and only a phaser has the range of variability needed to even have a chance at killing borg. It is the only logical conclusion.



3. "We will begin assimilating your culture and technology..."

When the borg first began encountering the federation, their arrival was announced via sudden communications blackouts from various edge-of-the-federation space docks and patrol vessels. When the borg Assimilate technology, they apply any strengths that it might yeild to their own design when and if there are defficiencies present. This is the nature of assimilation. The borg have assimilated many federation personnel and vessels.
That being said, it has been well documented that federation shields can repell mass.






This is relevant because this is a strength of Federation shield Technology. Technology that was Assimilated by the borg. Therefore, If the borg's shields previously had the weakness of not being able to repell mass, since the Assimilation of the Federation Shield technology which clearly does repell mass, it is safe to say that the borg shields no longer have that weakness and can now repell mass just as well as the federation shields can - because they are using assimilated federation technology to augment their shield capabilities. Also, since borg Drone shields use IDENTICAL technology to that of their ships, there is no difference between the two as far as strengths or weaknesses go aside from the total overload amount that the drone shield cand handle compared to that of a full vessel. THEREFORE INDVIDUAL DRONE SHIELDS CAN REPELL MASS.


4. In the star trek universe, shield technology is almost identical to forcefield technology - the only difference is the way the power generation is handled and the dimensions of the event frontier.
Borg Forcefields can repell matter with ease.

So why can't their shields? THEY CAN. It wouldn't make any sense for their shields to be defficient in this regard while their forcefields are not.


5. Photon Torpedoes are a physical projectile. They glow with a residual energy "shield", but they are matter at the core. If borg shields did not repell mass, then these physical projectiles would partially penetrate borg shields and explode, spreading some of the dstructive radius inside of the shielding. They do not. Therefore borg shields can repell mass. Captian Jean Luc Picard, the federation's most brilliant tatician and an ex borg didn't think to deactivate the photon torpodeo shielding so that the slugs could fully penetrate (and ignore) the borg shields. Why not? Because it wouldn't have mattered. Borg Shields can Repell Mass, and since the drones use identical shielding technology to their ships, there is no logical reason why the borg drones can not repell mass as well.


6. But what about the decrepencies? A shuttlecraft moving slowly with it's power off penetrates the borg shield at full, and non-projectile melee attacks seem like they might not be able to be guarded against by drones. Well, obviously this one-and-a-half point descrepency is not enough to reffute all five points as listed above. Both Star Trek and Star Wars have descrepencies, and Star Wars has even more than Star Trek does, so i don't want to hear any more bullshit from the SW dorks about that when there is overwhelming evidence against said discrepency, illuminating it for what it is.

BORG SHIELDS CAN REPELL MASS, AND SO CAN BORG DRONE SHIELDS ONCE THEY'RE ADAPTED. CASE CLOSED.



Secondly Ion Weapons vs Borg Shields

1. How do Ion Weapons work on Star Wars vessles? They penetrate the shields by, due to the nature of the particles in relation to the physical design of the Star Wars sheild technology, flowing into the shield generators and from there throught the adjacent electrical systems, overloading them and shorting them out/destroying them. As was stated by a Star Wars fan earlier:

"The ion cannon bolts at Hoth disabled the ISD because they went straight through the shields - not because they were more powerful than the shields.".

That also suggests that the Ion cannons themselves aren't as powerful as other weapons, because if they were, all weapons would be Ion. Think about that for a moment, there would be no reason NOT to use Ion weapons to the exclusion of all other beam weapons if they were so immensely powerful AND had the side effect of being able to decimate Star Wars shielding and technology so easily. I think it's safe to say by this logic that Ion weapons are, apart from their desired machinery-disableing effect, much weaker than other Star Wars beam weapons. They are a specialized weapon with limited usage.

2. How would Ion Weapons work on Star Trek Borg vessels? Due to the nature of the shield technology largely employed by the Star Trek universe, there is no physical circut between the ship and the shield frontier. The shield is a "bubble" around the object that does not come into contact with the object. Therefore, unless the Ion attack happens to be modulated to a frequency that would otherwise harmonize with Borg Shields (and therefore penetrate them), or the Borg shields were Down, there is no way for that ion pulse to bypass the shield frontier and reach the shield generators or any other system mechanics to disrupt them.

3. How about drones? Drones obviously operate on a much lesser power threshold than a borg ship does, and therefore all options of the shield are not automatically active at a given time. They do however use the exaxct same shielding technology as their ships. That being said, a number of borg drones might die after being hit by Ion blasts, destroying their personal shields and leaving them wide open to attack... before the rest of the collective processes that information and adapts. But the collective will modulate their personal shields to adapt, just as the borg ships adapt. The Ion weapons will become just as useless on Drones as they will be on Ships as far as this ace-in-the-hole overload effect.

ION CANNONS WILL NOT TEAR THE BORG SHIPS TO PIECES VIA CIRCUT OVERLOADING, AS THEY WILL NOT BE ABLE TO PENETRATE BORG SHIELDS BY ANY SPECIAL MEANS AS THEY DO TO STAR WARS SHIELDS. IT IS CLEAR THAT THE BORG DRONES WILL ADAPT THEIR SHIELDS AGAINST THAT USAGE OF ION CANNONS VIA DATA FROM OTHER DRONES WHO HAVE ALREADY FALLEN TO ION ATTACK. CASE CLOSED.

Mr.Bill wrote:
As far as I'm concered, they are rather flawed: a) they can be penetared by mass b) they can be disabled by ion cannon shot, since the ion cannon fires mass (similiar to the plasma of blaster weapons).

They cannot be penetrated by mass, i've already illustrated overwhelming evidence as to just why. If you want to ask these same questions over again without actually supplying any divergant information, don't expect to get anything but the same logical awnsers as i've just provided.

The borg are not "invincible" by any means, but they are sure as sh*t not an enemy to be taken lightly, no matter how vast your forces are. The Borg are highly adaptible, dynamic, powerful, intelligent, fearless, remorseless, and they spread like a virus through your own forces turning your own comrades and technology against you. Just because their shielding and hand-to-hand weapons technology can not be one-card trumped by some ace in the hole Empire technology (besides the death star or the like), does not mean that naray a borg ship would fall in the war. It just means that, as far as these two afore mentioned methods of attack go, you aren't going to be trumping the borg - for logical reasons already explained, in detail.

There is no easy win button you can use. It will be a HARD battle, for both sides i suspect. I am not making information up, or relying on anything half assed.


edited for clarity and continuity

http://www.politicsforum.org/forum/view ... 6790#76790


I apologize for my bad spelling, this was 4 years ago.

Among the most pointless assumptions I’ve ever heard of. Unlike “acts of Q”, Force-users have quantifiable powers and have shown every inclination to use them in a conflict.

If we take away the force, the Borg should have a similar (or similarly stupid) handicap… how about the ability to assimilate? Warp engines?

Force wielders control destiny. They shape the fabric of the Star Wars Universe. Unless you didn't know...

1. This is a Star Fleet projectile weapon. The TR-116.
The weapon was designed well before even the first encounter with the borg. Why was it never used against the borg in First Contact, even after all of that preperation and experience with the borg? Because they obviously easily adapt to physical weapons, and phasers with their variable frequencies offer the best chance at doing damage.

Liar. That is an outright lie - The TR-116 was a prototype and never made it into production. It was used on DS9 in 2375. Moreover, First Contact happened in 2373, two years before the DS9 incident. They discontinued the TR-116 because it was made obsolete by the Regenerative Phaser which could operate safely in areas ordinary vanilla phasers couldn’t.

Forget about the Replicator wankery. There are far less complicated objects the Replicator can't reproduce: Vaccines (Episode #4 of Season 1, Code of Honour) Rainwater (Episode #31 of Season 2), Nanites, which are supposed to be manufactured in a plant, (Episode #50 of Season 3), hell, they can't reproduce caviar for some reason. (Episode #65 of Season 3)

Also, since borg Drone shields use IDENTICAL technology to that of their ships, there is no difference between the two as far as strengths or weaknesses go aside from the total overload amount that the drone shield cand handle compared to that of a full vessel. THEREFORE INDVIDUAL DRONE SHIELDS CAN REPELL MASS.

Not true. They have never demonstrated to reflect mass. Mass weapons are the simplest weapons possible: a rock, a stick, a club, fists... Everyone gets exposure to that, and I'm sure the Borg are no stranger to physical resistance. You'd think with all the exposure to that they'd have already hyper-adapted to it years and years ago while Worf's fist still punches through.

Force wielders control destiny. They shape the fabric of the Star Wars Universe. Unless you didn't know...

Force wielders control destiny? Can be chalked up to religious dogma and the mystique that follows the Jedi. Palpatine is supposedly the most powerful force user and that didn't stop him from meeting a fiery end tumbling down the shaft of the Death Star. I guess he must have enjoyed that end. I guess he wanted all his hard work and his galactic empire to go to waste, then.

The ion cannon argument is irrelevant. Turbolasers already have enough power to slag cubes, adaptive shields or not. Like I said and proved with simple math and figures, Wars weapons and shields are far beyond even the mightiest Trek weapons you have to offer and even Star Trek weapons are capable of destroying the Borg when the Federation tries hard enough. Rub your finger against a file or some sandpaper. Keep doing that every day and eventually you'll adapt to that by building up callouses. Now force your face into a running centerless grinding head and if you live to tell the tale I'll be extremely surprised; the forces are the same, abrasion, the scale is different. I've also got the law of Conservation of Energy to say if the Borg Shields absorb it, they have to convert it from a destructive form into a not-so destructive form, not destroy it, and that would mean if there's more than they can convert, boom. Your body can absorb the force of a file. It cannot, however, take the brunt of two giant wheels of Corundum rotating at three thousand revolutions per minute.

On that note, Lasers that revolve around heat are not weapons you can adapt a frequency to. They are brute force and could be more than just concussive force - look at the way they melted and vaporized the asteroid. I've given it to you with hard science and mathematics, cited my sources, given you images and you haven't come up with an answer to any of my calculations preferring to attempt to handwave your way out of what is real, desperately trying to imply the Borg are invincible, and on top of that, have tried to feed me a lie and a half-truth in the same post.

What did I say about it not being a strong argument if you have to use lies to support it?

He sent back…

I didn't post that. That's a post from a fellow user I trust and respect. Please provide specifics if you're to accuse my friend of being a liar.

That said, Federation shields (and force fields) do reflect mass, and the Borg certainly assimilated federation shield technology. So I think its still fair to conclude that Borg shields adapt to mass (or rather, should be able to).

I've given it to you with hard science and mathematics, cited my sources, given you images and you haven't come up with an answer to any of my calculations preferring to attempt to handwave your way out of what is real, desperately trying to imply the Borg are invincible, and on top of that, have tried to feed me a lie and a half-truth in the same post.

You've radically and widely misinterpreted everything I've been posting.

Force wielders control destiny? Can be chalked up to religious dogma and the mystique that follows the Jedi. Palpatine is supposedly the most powerful force user and that didn't stop him from meeting a fiery end tumbling down the shaft of the Death Star. I guess he must have enjoyed that end. I guess he wanted all his hard work and his galactic empire to go to waste, then.

Palpatine was defeated by his hubris. He's George Lucas' fantastical Grand Master of the Teutonic Order.

Anyway, the Borg would win because they assimilate the technology of their enemies.

SO EVEN IF the Empire has better technology (superior weapons, superior light speed) the Borg would assimilate those technologies.... and win...

Specifics:

Because they obviously easily adapt to physical weapons, and phasers with their variable frequencies offer the best chance at doing damage.

The TR-116 was a prototype and never made it into production. It was used on DS9 in 2375. Moreover, First Contact happened in 2373, two years before the DS9 incident.

In the book Lesser Evil, a ship the borg were on was cleaned out with a crew using prototype TR-116s projectile guns. The drones' shields didn't do anything against the TR-116's projectiles. This compliments and doesn't contradict the scenes of Worf's fists and the Holodeck Tommy Gun shootout.

That said, Federation shields (and force fields) do reflect mass, and the Borg certainly assimilated federation shield technology. So I think its still fair to conclude that Borg shields adapt to mass (or rather, should be able to).

All shields can absorb a finite amount of energy before they come down. If they didn't, then there'd be no need for anyone to fear anyone. The Enterprise's shields can still be overloaded if the shields try to take on more energy than they can handle. They are not infinite nor do they make a ship entirely invincible. You say Borg technology is based on Federation Star Ships. Meaning that since Federation star ships are not invulnerable, neither are Borg ships. And plus, you’re forgetting that out of desperation, ramming the Borg ships works.

Star Wars has the numerical advantage and superior firepower. I've given you the example of the Acclamator Troop Transport's light guns being nearly a hundred times more powerful than the Enterprise-D's phasers and a single one of Jango Fett's seismic charge weapons, weapons a bounty hunter's patrol craft is capable of bringing to the battle being more powerful than the Enterprise-D's entire payload of torpedoes. I have figures to prove it.

Palpatine was defeated by his hubris. He's George Lucas' fantastical Grand Master of the Teutonic Order.

That was said in sarcasm. If force users, Palpatine being the strongest or among the strongest, could change destiny, then he wouldn't have let it end like that, if force-users, like you say, are capable of changing destiny. There is no evidence to say that force users can change destiny a la Q.

He replied,

All shields can absorb a finite amount of energy before they come down. The Enterprise's shields can still be overloaded if the shields take on more energy than they can handle. They are not infinite nor do they make a ship entirely invincible. You say Borg technology is based on Federation Star Ships. Meaning that since Federation star ships are not invulnerable, neither are Borg ships.

I agree. When first encountered several Borg ships will be destroyed. The Death's Stars super laser will kill many, and the raw fire power of the imperial navy will cause much damage. However, it will not be long before the Borg adapt to these high energy weapons and defeat the Imperial forces.

The point is, it is illogical to assume that a) Borg shields cannot adapt to mass or that b) high energy weapons would defeat a race based on assimilating the technology of their enemies.

In the book Lesser Evil, a ship the borg were on was cleaned out with a crew using prototype TR-116s projectile guns. The drones' shields didn't do anything although you did say they do adapt to phasers.

The only reference you have is that one book? My friend supplied a picture of the weapon, so clearly it has been used in a show or some other visual media. Apparently it was in a DS9 show. DS9 is stupid however, so I do not watch it.

Star Wars ships have much more powerful shields and armour

I've heard it both ways. Star Trek ships are made of insanely hard metals, so are Wars ships. The shields are so great on both etc.

Both imperial and Borg shields block mass and energy weapons. The imperials will never have encountered anything like the Borg before. The Borg will assimilate the technology of the imperials and use it against them as it has done with countless species for countless eons.

I've given you the example of the Acclamator Troop Transport's light guns being nearly a hundred times more powerful than the Enterprise-D's phasers

I am well aware of this. All the more for the Borg to consume. And who cares about a stupid $%*%!ng troop transport from the clone wars? At least get some stats on Super Star Destroyers or something please. Borg cubes are about the size of a federation space dock. Cubes are 3 kilometers cubed and carry like 60,000 drones.

You're very confident you have the capacity to PROVE everything. I think your overconfidence is your weakness- even if my faith in my friends is mine.

You cannot prove everything. You cannot verify everything. You certainly cannot know everything.

Also it is a logical fallacy to call for the verification of everything, most famously espoused by the Logical Positivists:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Logical_Positivism

Who ascribed to the verifiable theory of meaning.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Verifiabil ... of_meaning

This was the belief that something is meaningless unless it can verified, which is FALSE because

Universal claims could apparently never be verified: How can you tell that all ravens are black, unless you've hunted down every raven ever, including those in the past and future? This led to a great deal of work on induction, probability, and "confirmation", which combined verification and falsification.

I digress.

If force users, Palpatine being the strongest or among the strongest, could change destiny, then he wouldn't have let it end like that, if force-users, like you say, are capable of changing destiny.

Do you know what hubris is?

I said,

Then if you're going to play that 'I can't prove everything' card, you're under its rules too, buddy. You can't prove the Borg will be able to assimilate Imperial Tech. You have made an assumption. If I went back in time and gave Leonardo Da Vinci the blueprints for an F-22 Fighter Jet, he could probably translate the language or guess at the dimensions. It doesn't mean he'd be able to mimic the technology. Not for several hundred years.

However, it will not be long before the Borg adapt to these high energy weapons and defeat the Imperial forces.

On the other hand, they weren't even able to take on Mr. Data. If they had been able to assimilate Data, the Queen would've just done her usual assimilation business instead of trying to tempt him into joining them. They had time to study him, they couldn't assimilate him.

The only reference you have is that one book?

The only reference you have is that speculation and a picture? As far as we know it is in a publication, and that publication says it can kill drones. There are occasions scattered throughout Star Trek where drones have been killed with low-tech means such as blunt objects.

Also it is a logical fallacy to call for the verification of everything, most famously espoused by the Logical Positivists:

Don't drag this onto a tangent. We're dealing with an exact science here where facts are proven.

Do you know what hubris is?

Yes I do. Arrogance... figuring he could do more than he could, usual supar-ubAr-l33tness bad guy syndrome. What I am saying is that if he had the power to change his destiny, he certainly would've. I don't think anyone in their right mind would want to meet their end like that.

He sent me back again…

It doesn't mean he'd be able to mimic the technology. Not for several hundred years.

This is what the Borg do and have been doing their entire existence. They are adapt at adapting. The Imperials are just like any other space-faring "hominid" empire... perhaps a few millennium of advancements- but in very minor areas... slightly better shields and armour, slightly faster warp engines, basic shitty storm troopers for units.


Assimilating the entire galactic empire would take some time... but what is a million years to the Borg?

Then prove that they will do this.

You cannot. As you said yourself earlier in this thread:

When arguing the strength of crossovers - one common mistake is to rely on semantics. Words and comparisons that are relevant in their respective universes are meaningless when they are transferred to another.

One takes what one has: The empire, vast foreboding, British, fascist, ruled by a sith lord.

The borg: culture of assimilation. Incorporates the technologies of other civilizations and the biologies of other species into its collective to fill any gaps or weakness that map exist. As the Borg Queen (personally I still prefer to imagine the Borg as a pure collective, the Queen notion being a copout for the movies) in First Contact says, "we strive towards perfection."

The only reference you have is that speculation and a picture? It was featured in a DS9 episode and used to kill two people. As far as we know it is in a publication, and that publication says it can kill borg.

So then it can. However, it will not always be able to do so, as Borg shields adapt to the material of the bullet, I suppose.

What I am saying is that if he had the power to change his destiny, he certainly would've. I don't think anyone in their right mind would want to meet their end like that.

The dark side is not to be trusted. Palpatine was a politician. His power came from his affiliation with the dark side of the force. Two of his prior sith apprentices were killed: Darth Maul and Darth Tyrannous. It would seem logical that his 3rd apprentice, Vader, would be quite wary of his master's past...

Anyway, point is, Palpatine was a fool, the dark side is not to be trusted, and many bothans died.

One sec, last one...

[Davey]

Okay, here's the last one.
I sent back...

So then it can. However, it will not always be able to do so, as Borg shields adapt to the material of the bullet, I suppose.

Where's the evidence to support this claim that they'll adapt to the material of the bullet? Are you saying that if you dropped several hundred thousand tons of this bullet material on top a drone he'd just shrug it off?

slightly better shields and armour, slightly faster warp engines

A light turbolaser being slightly better than the Enterprise's phasers is not 'slightly.'

This is what the Borg do and have been doing their entire existence. They are adapt at adapting. The Imperials are just like any other space-faring "hominid" empire... perhaps a few millennium of advancements- but in very minor areas... slightly better shields and armour, slightly faster warp engines, basic shitty storm troopers for units.

Assimilating the entire galactic empire would take some time... but what is a million years to the Borg?

Then the Galactic Empire will stomp them while they try to catch up, then, with their superior firepower and speed.

I hadn't added this in when you replied, so I'll state it now: The Borg didn't try to assimilate Data - they tried to tempt him into joining them. If they had been able to assimilate Data, they would have. They can't assimilate everything.

You cannot. As you said yourself earlier in this thread:

They can't assimilate everything even in their own universe and even Data's technology, which was created by humans.

as Borg shields adapt to the material of the bullet, I suppose.

What evidence supports that they can become immune to certain materials?

One again, he replied…

Where's the evidence to support this claim that they'll adapt to the material of the bullet? Are you saying that if you dropped several hundred thousand tons of this bullet material on top a drone he'd just shrug it off?

Not at all. But drones do not routinely have several thousand tons of bullet material dropped on them. Nor I suppose do they have a small pellets of bullet matter shot through them at the speed of light or anything similar. Most of what we see of the borg is them facing off against federation phasers and sh*t (which, you'll have to agree, they totally dominate).

But if they did, the borg would attempt to adapt something to solve that problem. Like for example assimilating the power generating sections of star destroyers and building portable units for their drones. But speaking generally it doesn't really matter. The Borg have millions and millions of drones.

A light turbolaser being slightly better than the Enterprise's phasers is not 'slightly.'

When the enterprise first encountered the borg the borg latched onto the enterprise with a tractor beam, cut through its shields and hull with a laser, and started taking it apart for assimilation. The borg teleported their drones through the federation shields directly onto the bridge. Firing everything the enterprise could muster short of quantum torpedoes which had yet to be invented slightly damaged the outer hull which was then instantly repaired.

One two occasions a single borg cube a) destroyed the entire federation fleet and b) attacked earth. There are thousands of borg cubes.

Then the Galactic Empire will stomp them while they try to catch up, then, with their superior firepower and speed.

Once faced with the imperials, they will captured a ship with hyperspace engines and assimilate those, giving every cube hyperspace capability. They would likely get all basic shield and armour and communications information and technology from taking over a few merchant ships.

The Borg didn't try to assimilate Data - they tried to tempt him into joining them.

Plot cliche for the movie because piccard was a borg in season 3.

They can't assimilate everything.

Actaully the queen was succeeding in assimilating data until she was liquefied and data was saved by piccard.

At this point someone cut in.

They can't assimilate everything.

Actaully the queen was succeeding in assimilating data until she was liquefied and data was saved by piccard.

Not really. Data himself said he was tempted only for a nano-second, which seemed like an eternity for an android. This seems to point that he had been playing along with the queen in hopes of finding someway to stop her. That last sentence is opinion, but it would seem fairly likely from what the movie says.

The borg guy replied…

Data was being assimilated. Given more time he would have been.

Anyway, I think its a fairly minor point.

I sent back…

But if they did, the borg would attempt to adapt something to solve that problem. Like for example assimilating the power generating sections of star destroyers and building portable units for their drones. But speaking generally it doesn't really matter. The Borg have millions and millions of drones.

Once again I'll need to hear your evidence, not just paraphrasing what you've said earlier.

When the enterprise first encountered the borg the borg latched onto the enterprise with a tractor beam, cut through its shields and hull with a laser, and started taking it apart for assimilation. The borg teleported their drones through the federation shields directly onto the bridge. Firing everything the enterprise could muster short of quantum torpedoes which had yet to be invented slightly damaged the outer hull which was then instantly repaired.

One two occasions a single borg cube a) destroyed the entire federation fleet and b) attacked earth. There are thousands of borg cubes.

Star Destroyers are not Enterprises. Their shields are many times stronger. The Galactic Empire has resources to build two planets within a lifetime - much more than the Borg have achieved. See the numbers again. The Star Destroyers' superior firepower will crush the cubes.

In Episode 48, Regeneration, the Enterprise attacked and destroyed a Borg Vessel. They are shown to be vulnerable to a variety of physical attacks, even though you said that if there are three or more they will adapt to them. In this episode simply doubling the output of a phase pistol is enough to blow through their adaptation. Wars weapons are more than double the output. Radiation destroys Borg nanites and prevents assimilation. They didn't adapt to any of that.

Once faced with the imperials, they will captured a ship with hyperspace engines and assimilate those, giving every cube hyperspace capability. They would likely get all basic shield and armour and communications information and technology from taking over a few merchant ships.

I'm waiting to hear your evidence that they are even capable of doing this.

Let's sum this debate up.

I've given you numbers and calculations that show Wars weapons and shields are far beyond the hopes of Trek. I've stated the laws of physics. I've given you citations and evidence. I've cited you sources. I've demonstrated mathematically that Trek's weapons, shields, and power technology is inferior to Wars' weapons and Wars has the upper hand in superior firepower.

On the other hand you've given me a lot of unverified assumptions. "They'll adapt to it when..." "They'll take over the Star Destroyer." And you've given me excuses when I've asked for evidence or not even acknowledged any of my points at all and tried to put me on some digression. I hear a lot of baseless technowankery, and that is it.

This is going nowhere without evidence.

Then he replied…

lol @ u
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Borg_starships

more lol
http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/Borg_cube

Irritated, I said,

Cut through the crap.

He sent back:

Thousands of cubes were estimated to exist in Borg space in the Delta Quadrant; the largest grouping of cubes directly observed by Starfleet was fifteen, by the crew of the USS Voyager in late 2373. (VOY: "Scorpion") When describing the assimilation of his world, Arturis said that hundreds of cubes surrounded his homeworld before its destruction. (VOY: "Hope and Fear")

What was the largest grouping of Imperial ships ever observed?

I'm not going to reply until you tell me what the largest ever grouping of imperial ships was.

There are no figures for the energy of borg cube weapons! Just as you can't find a reference for ISDs... I know one does exist for ISDs, but there's nothing about borg cubes!

So like I've been saying you can't know everything, borg win, the end.[/quote]

I replied,

Finally a number.

Big number of ships, and a pathetically limited amount of firepower. Their cutting beams cut through the Enterprises' weak shields, but Enterprises are not Star Destroyers. Star Destroyer shields are countlessly stronger than Enterprise shields.

There's no need for quantity when the GE has quality. At Endor, there was the incomplete Death Star II, the Executor, and +24 ISDs, which is relatively small, but they don't need large groupings. For the strength of the ISDs' weapons, the cubes might as well be made out of paper. In Regeneration, simply doubling a phase pistol's output is enough to blow through the adaption. If the Enterprise is able to take down a Borg Vessel with their puny little Trek phasers eventually, those thousands of cubes would be nothing but target practise for the ISD's turbolasers:

Jango Fett's puny patrol craft wields approximately 17778 times the power of the Enterprise D's main phasers, and even the Enterprise D's phasers are capable of damaging the cube.

The Acclamator's shields max out at 70 Trillion GW. The Enterprise’s fail at 3311GW. Voyager’s shields have stood up to the Borg cutters for a short duration of time, and Voyager is a Fed starship. It wouldn’t be far off from the Enterprise’s.

Meanwhile, the ISDs' light turbolasers put out at least 280 Terrajoules on the conservative side, judging by what they do in the movies. The Borg are beyond hope of adapting to that if phasers, when doubled in output blast through their adaptation. The ISDs slag the 20,000 cubes, while your 20,000 cubes, with all their combined firepower, wouldn't be able to take down the shields of a troop transport before it blasts them into slag.

He sends me some more one-liners.

provide me with shield statistics for an imperial star destroyer.

UNLOCK THE THREAD

So, I replied…

It only takes one Star Destroyer to turn a world into slag:
http://www.theforce.net/swtc/isd.html#weaponry-bd0

It says so in the Imperial Source Book, and in several EU publications.

The shields for a Star Destroyer wouldn't be any lighter than the Acclamator. The Star Destroyer is a bigger ship and meant for combat instead of transport.

From the Star Wars Technical Commentaries:

During a search for the Millennium Falcon in a particularly dense and unstable asteroid belt, one of Lord Vader's star destroyer escorts suffered serious collisional damage. A fast-moving asteroid of approximately 70m diameter slipped into contact with the destroyer before the gunnery crews had a chance to blast it. The object exceeded the capacity of the deflector shields around the command tower, which were already undermined by continual pummelling and whatever effects had earlier been suffered at the hands of the Hoth rebel ion cannon operators. Both the asteroid and the tower were obliterated. The remainder of the ship flew onwards. [Michael Wong originally investigated the kinetics of this event. I independently repeated this work, but with a more refined estimate of the asteroid's velocity.] Judging by the observed size and velocity of the asteroid, and assuming a typical ferrous asteroidal composition, the kinetic energy involved in the collision was in excess of

E > 5 x 1014 J.

That figure is for a Star Destroyer that has already been battered by a planetary ion cannon and flown through an asteroid field full of asteroids. No doubt a fresher Star Destroyer could take far more punishment.

Also mentioned is:

The book Anakin Skywalker: The Story of Darth Vader explicitly states that all the Imperial vessels withstood "multi-megaton" impacts on their shields, a megaton being equal to 4.19 x 1015J.

This is a pretty big understatement. Look again in the Attack of the Clones Incredible Cross Sections: The heavy guns for the Acclamator each give out 2.4 MILLION MEGATONS each shot, and Star Destroyers resisted constant bombardment from Rebel Cruisers which had far more firepower than a mere troop transport for almost the entire duration of the Battle of Endor, and if a Troop Transport spits out 2.4 Million Megatons a shot with its heavy guns, a purpose-specific fighting vehicle would put out far, far, far more.

He replied,

Firstly, you are aware that there is a fundamental difference between reality and fantasy, no? Science does not apply to things which do not exist! Science can only make statements about the nature of reality. Science fiction is fictitious! I can't believe I have to say this.

That said,

It didn't take the Borg cube ANY time to get through the shields. If you'd actually read the articles I sent you, you'd know the borg ship drained the enterprises shields then cut through the HULL. This took "a few seconds" to cut through a hull with a laser-- a laser which is a cutting instrument and not a weapon.

I repeat, a SINGLE borg cube destroyed the entire federation fleet, 39 of 40 vessels, and assaulted earth... twice (was destroyed both times by the protagonists to stop the borg from conquering the earth).

Borg cubes are BIGGER then ISDs. They possess regenerative assimilation technology. It's perfectly safe and reasonable to assume that the borg would adapt to anything the imperials have, and will defeat them, given time. The imperials will likely win the first few encounters but will inevitably be defeated. The imperials are not very innovative.

Anyway, THIS is a waste of time. I'm taking time away from writing my thesis on the use of military technology at the Battle of Tsushima, to argue about a FAKE possibility in a FICTITIOUS universe.

In my professional opinion, the Borg will win. Nothing you have said so far has swayed that opinion. You have been rude and belligerent and its obvious you are uneducated an ill informed!

So eat and sh*t and die!

Ha! What a tool – pulls the manners card and then tries to throw insults. Talk about purpose-defeating. I sent back…

Riiiight.

We're debating about this in-universe style. This means we must suspend disbelief and go by evidence, not assertions and not presumptions.

After 7-of-9 was 'removed' from the collective, she made a few changes to Voyager's shields using some of the Borg's own technology. They did a very good job of standing up to the Borg cutters. Star Destroyer shields are capable of absorbing far more than Trek shields are (See SW Technical Commentaries, or my previous PMs). The Borg attempted to cut through with their cutting beam and failed.

After losing 400 Cubes to Species 8472's energy-based weaponry in Scorpion I and II, the Borg showed no signs of adaptation at all. They lost four hundred cubes to what appeared to be energy weapons.

The Borg are not very innovative at all. They can cannibalize and reverse-engineer, perhaps even improve upon technology, but when it comes to tactics, they're not too bright. After they lost to Species 8472, instead of adapting, strategizing, coming up with a battle plan, and acting upon it, they just moseyed in again, broadcasted their trademark "Resistance Is Futile," and got chased out of space by 8742. Many cubes were ripped up by the 8742 weapons still the Borg showed no signs of adapting - strategically, or technologically.

Even though they can adapt to energies, a Borg cube was blasted into shreds by a Solar Flare. A Turbolaser is more powerful than any solar flare. (See Descent: Part II for the scene, and the Star Wars Technical Commentaries for Turbolaser output calculations). This disproves 'infinite energy adaptation.'


Borg may be able to create Kinetic Energy shields over their ships. After all, that is what protects them from debris. However - their drones lack this feature:

Descent I & II: Data kills a drone by directly punching it in the head. In the next scene he is shown grappling with another, snapping its neck. Picard is able to disable one of the other drones by ripping out a cable in its head.

Star Trek: First Contact: Worf several drones with the handle of a phaser rifle. Some are killed, others have broken bones. Data picks up a dead drone and throws it at another, knocking both of them to the floor. Nameless Security Crewmember attacks a borg with his fist, hitting its armoured body. No evidence of shielding is seen. Data kills three drones using his body while trying to escape from Engineering. On the Deflector Dish, Worf attacks a drone with a blade, killing it after hitting it three times.

Several times also Drones have been killed by being sneaked up on by humans. One of their standing policies is to ignore intruders on their very own ships until the intruders start making themselves a threat. On the other hand, Obi-Wan Kenobi has to use stealth and mind tricks in order to sneak past Stormtroopers. Luke and Han were nearly (and in the end ultimately) discovered, even when disguised, and had difficulty bluffing their way past a simple nameless Imperial Prison Guard.

The Borg also lack failsafes to prevent everyone on the ship from going to sleep at the same time. I'm not a history major like you are, but I'm pretty sure there are cases where dozing sentries have cost their sides. The Borg should have known this.

Lastly, the Borg have, as you say, been around for a very long time. Physical weapons are the oldest weapons known to mankind and presumably other cultures as well. The Borg would have been exposed to them, and if they had the capacity to adapt to kinetic energy, they would have. On their ships this doesn't seem to be a problem - however, one of Species 8472's ships rams into the Borg cube, causing visible damage. The shields may have 'cushioned' the impact, but they did not stop it from taking damage and blowing up.

Wayne Poe writes:

If we assume that a Borg Cube's shields are 50 times more powerful than a Galaxy-class starship, a Borg Cube could withstand a steady-state bombardment of 500 TW, and a total energy bombardment of 140,000 TJ (that's based on the 10TW and 2800TJ limits for the Enterprise-D's metaphasic shields from "I, Borg"). Pretty impressive for ST technology—too bad for the Borg that even a Clone Wars-era Acclamator troop transport has 837,200,000TJ TL cannons, a single Star Destroyer carries more than 64 of these cannons, and the Death Star carried THOUSANDS of 25000TW TL cannons! A single full salvo from a Star Destroyer's turbolaser compliment carries at least 150,000 TJ, a power level of approximately 1.5 million TW. Easily enough to overwhelm Borg shields.

First Contact: 20 Fed vessels gang up on a cube, managing to defeat it, even with their conventional Trek weapons.


"Borg cubes are larger than ISDs" [paraphrase]

On the other hand they are more durable and can put out more firepower. In Dark Apprentice, Star Destroyers are depicted gathering near the centre of a nebula and other Star Wars ships have been seen directly in the field of stars where Borg ships have been destroyed by solar flares. In "Classic Star Wars 3" The Graphic Novel, the Executor is seen closely orbiting Yavin's sun without being harmed.

Size matters only slightly. When Janeway beams onto a Borg Cube, she materializes in the middle of a long walkway. Drones are seen milling around the sides of the cube and on the walls. The rest is empty space. No entrance is seen for captured ships. Also, even if they were solid, they are not nearly as durable as ISDs, if they aren't able to stand up to Solar Flares, which aren't as powerful as a Turbolaser. Meanwhile, Star Destroyers soak up broadsides from Mon Calamari ships wielding similar weaponry and return fire.

Meanwhile in First Contact, 20 Federation ships successfully destroy a Borg Cube.


Despite the fact Borg cubes can move very quickly, they have never demonstrated much in the way of tactics or improvisation. Instead of trying to outmaneuvre Species 8742, they kept moving forward into 8742's sights. At no time did they reconsider their strategy even though it wasn't working.

Aside from assimilating someone and taking their knowledge, the Borg adapt through 'experiencing' something, then accepting their loss and making sure it won't happen again. Four hundred cubes lost and countless drones with them to Species 8742's weapons, and no adaptation. In every single incidence where drones have been exposed to direct-force attacks, they have either gotten injured or killed.

Borg have been killed by plasma coolant. In no way did they adapt to it. Plasma kills Borg. Blasters, (such as the kind wielded by Stormtroopers), fire superheated bolts of gas - plasma. (The gas in question being fictional, 'Tibanna'). Some smaller shipboard weapons are scaled-up versions of these hand blasters.

Also during Scorpion I and II, the Species 8742 killed a whole pile of drones with their claws. If the drones can adapt within one or two shots from an exotic energy weapons, they should have adapted to simple claws, but failed to. Simple claws should have taken less time.


In the Dark Apprentice series, or in one of the Karen Traviss books, Pellaeon (sp?) mentions the Empire had at least 25,000 Star Destroyers. This number seems small, because the Death Star (first one) alone could displace (volume-wise) a greater number than that figure. The Second Death star is much larger than the original. Also, the Empire built one of these monster ships within a single lifetime and had the second well on the way to completion before it was blown up. That speaks quite a bit about their construction capabilities.

The Empire has developed the Sun Crusher, the World Devastators, Galaxy Gun, and various other powerful superweapons without the need for cannibalizing other technologies. They have also, on numerous occasions, been known to strategize and change their strategies on the fly. Imperial Grand Admiral Thrawn was known for this. The Borg have not demonstrated this ability, even against Species 8742 where their favoured strategy of just moving in, expecting the enemy to fall after broadcasting their slogan failed, resulting in the loss of 400 cubes with no adaptation.

The Borg do not have infinite adaptability. Their shields will not stand up to Solar flares, and if they can't stand up to Solar Flares, they won't be able to stand up to the might of turbolasers. Their regenerative adaptation failed numerous times and there is canonical evidence to support it.

Their shields can take on energy, of course. They wouldn't be shields if they weren't. But there's a limit they can take, and Star Wars ships are on a different common denominator than Trek ships are.

Lastly, Wars ships' weapons have a longer range. 10km is considered absolute point blank range at the Battle of Endor, meanwhile the Borg and the Enterprise duke it out at ranges under a tenth of that, where the ships come in danger of colliding. This however doesn't tie Wars ships from close combat. There are several EU novels where ships have gone in even closer.

In battle situations, the Borg have never been able to successfully beam aboard a hostile ship. Unlike Star Trek shields, Wars shields are always left running full throttle (or as full as the ship's capabilities allow).

On assimilating the Death Star, Wayne Poe writes:

The Death Star (In ANH) has a surface area of 321,699 square km with a diameter of 160km. If all the Death Star's personnel were only on the surface, there would less than 4 people per square km. If we say that the Death Star has a population density of 350 persons per square km, (about the same as the state of New Jersey,) then with a diameter of 160km, it would have a population of 110,664,456. And that's only if people lived on the surface. If we're talking about the Death Star 2, with a diameter of 900km and a surface area of 8,042,470 square km, and had the same population density, then it would have a population of 2,814,864,500. If the DS2 had a population density of 5,500 persons per square km, (about the same as Hong Kong) then it would have a total population of 44,233,585,000. That's around 7 times the population of Earth, and that's only if everyone lived on the DS2's surface.

On a side note, if the Borg managed to board the DS2 and started assimilating at a rate of 10 people per second, it would take them 140 years to finish the job.

140 years is not a long time to the collective. But remember that The Borg are incapable of adapting to a simple Solar Flare and a Turbolaser's far more powerful than a solar flare. In the time it takes for the Borg to start slicing through the Death Star, the Empire would rip them up. The Empire has the advantage of numbers (both in manpower, ship numbers, and firepower, as well as speed).

The Warp Hubs can only take the Borg to certain locations and they must be at one of their Hubs to use it. They have not tried to use it in combat situations.

The Borg do not have infinite adaptability - this is proven by Species 8742.

The Borg do not have infinite shield capacity - this is proven by the damage destruction of the Borg vessels by ramming, Federation weapons, and Alien weapons. Ramming? Asteroids - if the Borg were going to be spacefaring, they obviously thought about physical hazards, and if they could've adapted to them, they would've. After losing 400 Cubes to the same old, same old energy weapons, they would've adapted to them.

The thing that is stopping them from taking over Wars ships and harnessing Wars tech is again, numerical superiority. Even a broken-down civilian tramp freighter (even a heavily modified one) like the Falcon is capable of flying into locations (Dark Apprentice, again) that Cubes can't, such as into close proximity of stars.

Species 8472 are also not invincible. Voyager is capable of taking them out, and it's a Federation ship. As you've said, borg cubes can stomp Fed ships almost effortlessly.

The Borg have adaptation, yes, but they need to take someone to use it or take the ships. Because they cannot take the ships and cannot teleport through the shields (on which Wars Ships, are left running continuously) and can't go places even broken-down tramp frieghters can, they won't be able to adapt. Wars weapons are much more powerful, and a ship caught in a tractor beam can still fight. Even a merchant ship has weapons, and even a single hit from a lowly bounty hunter's weapon are capable of doing what an entire payload of Torpedoes - the best the Federation have to offer, cannot. And even the Federation's weapons can blow up a cube, if they try hard enough (First Contact). On taking someone when he's on the ground, the average stormtrooper or even commanding officer wouldn't know how the tech works, only how to use it. They simply will not have the opportunity to cannibalize and reverse engineer Wars Tech before being ripped up by Wars weapons, to which they can't adapt, even if we assume that they will be able to successfully reverse-engineer Wars tech once they get their hands (claws? Manipulators? Whirly things?) on it. They also have demonstrated the inability to strategize.

One universe that would curbstomp Star Wars would *probably* be The Culture. If I recall correctly space combat in The Culture occurs at speeds above the speed of light, their civilization is on a greater scale, etc. Numerical disparity, again. That's what it boils down to.

He sent back

Borg win

Rabid trekkie. There’s nothing I can do further. I suppose he’s playing the “If you can’t go for reason, go for repetition and hope you’re the last man standing” game. For a History major specializing in the field of military history and by the sounds of it, going for a doctorate degree, he’s a pretty lousy debater.

Thanks Peptuck and thanks to everyone who pitched in. Big thanks goes to Mr. Wong and Mr. Poe for their pages and information. This wouldn’t have been possible if it weren’t for your help.

[Davey]

Ghetto edit, sorry. I mean I wouldn't have been able to argue the case without your help.