Michael Vick Agrees to plead guilty

Plekhanov · Post by **Plekhanov** » 2007-08-27 05:08pm

Patrick Degan wrote:
Plekhanov wrote:Why what's so terrible about gambling that it's illegal or gets you banned from the NFL?

It's not as of he was betting that team he was playing for was going to lose or even on American Football at all.
The concern is association with professional gamblers could lead to a compromising relationship, which could potentially queer playoff races. And in the wake of the Tim Donaghy scandal in the NBA, there is zero chance of any sort of tolerance being extended.

That's nothing but a slippery slope argument, British footballers bet on stuff all the time and we don't seem to be plagued with players fixing matches, so long as players don't bet on something that they could conceivably influence I really don't see what the problem is.

FSTargetDrone · Post by **FSTargetDrone** » 2007-08-27 05:29pm

Edi wrote:I don't know why, but it seems to me to be pretty much an American idea that simply saying I'm sorry is supposed to get people off the hook for all kinds of shit. Just say the words, throw in some superficial bit about God and Jesus and faith and everybody's supposed to act as if that makes it all okay and you're looked on like some kind of monster if you don't forgive completely reprehensible scum for their crimes.

We've got some of the same here too, with public figures thinking just saying sorry should get them off the hook, but it's not nearly as widespread and few people fall for it. It doesn't really get them anywhere, fortunately.

Yeah, especially the religious part. "Finding" Jesus definitely scores some points with the religiously-minded, but it means nothing to me. As far as the forgiveness issue, I've had the TV/radio on in the background while working, and several times today, on various programs, it's been said that, "America is a very forgiving society."

I've heard that sort of thing before when other people get in various kinds of trouble. It may even be the case that people in the US is particularly impressed by someone begging forgiveness and saying sorry, but the thing is, Vick just doesn't seem to be sorry about anything other than that he's in trouble right now. He mentioned that he's "immature." Immaturity is throwing eggs at parked cars, soaping windows or other childish behavior. This is a criminal act, yet he never mentioned the word "criminal." He's just "immature."

Apologies like this are not even worthy of the name.

Patrick Degan · Post by **Patrick Degan** » 2007-08-27 08:41pm

Plekhanov wrote:
Patrick Degan wrote:
Plekhanov wrote:Why what's so terrible about gambling that it's illegal or gets you banned from the NFL?

It's not as of he was betting that team he was playing for was going to lose or even on American Football at all.
The concern is association with professional gamblers could lead to a compromising relationship, which could potentially queer playoff races. And in the wake of the Tim Donaghy scandal in the NBA, there is zero chance of any sort of tolerance being extended.
That's nothing but a slippery slope argument, British footballers bet on stuff all the time and we don't seem to be plagued with players fixing matches, so long as players don't bet on something that they could conceivably influence I really don't see what the problem is.

It is not a slippery slope argument considering the history of sports matches being fixed by players and referees in cahoots with gambling interests in the United States —the most infamous incidents being the Black Sox scandal of 1919, the chequered career of Pete Rose, and the aforementioned Tim Donahgy case which has quite possibly corrupted at least one NBA championship in the last three years if not more.

Plekhanov · Post by **Plekhanov** » 2007-08-28 05:05am

Patrick Degan wrote:
Plekhanov wrote:That's nothing but a slippery slope argument, British footballers bet on stuff all the time and we don't seem to be plagued with players fixing matches, so long as players don't bet on something that they could conceivably influence I really don't see what the problem is.
It is not a slippery slope argument considering the history of sports matches being fixed by players and referees in cahoots with gambling interests in the United States —the most infamous incidents being the Black Sox scandal of 1919, the chequered career of Pete Rose, and the aforementioned Tim Donahgy case which has quite possibly corrupted at least one NBA championship in the last three years if not more.

It's a text book slippery slope argument and one that's obviously so to someone not brought up with the puritanical attitude to gambling that seems to pervade the US.

Elfdart · Post by **Elfdart** » 2007-08-28 01:42pm

I think you're missing the point. It doesn't matter what sport a player was betting on if he ends up indebted to a bookie. It's the debt that gives a bookie leverage over the player, and that's something a sport doesn't want to risk since the temptation to fix a game or shave points would be too great.

Patrick Degan · Post by **Patrick Degan** » 2007-08-28 02:03pm

Plekhanov wrote:
Patrick Degan wrote:
Plekhanov wrote:That's nothing but a slippery slope argument, British footballers bet on stuff all the time and we don't seem to be plagued with players fixing matches, so long as players don't bet on something that they could conceivably influence I really don't see what the problem is.
It is not a slippery slope argument considering the history of sports matches being fixed by players and referees in cahoots with gambling interests in the United States —the most infamous incidents being the Black Sox scandal of 1919, the chequered career of Pete Rose, and the aforementioned Tim Donahgy case which has quite possibly corrupted at least one NBA championship in the last three years if not more.
It's a text book slippery slope argument and one that's obviously so to someone not brought up with the puritanical attitude to gambling that seems to pervade the US.

So... the fact that there is a documented history in the United States of professional athelets and referees who've been caught red-handed not only consorting with gamblers but influencing the outcomes of matches they participate in and whole playoff races in some cases, over multiple decades, to illegally further gambling interests, makes this a slippery slope argument, eh?

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2007-08-28 02:03pm

Plekhanov wrote:It's a text book slippery slope argument and one that's obviously so to someone not brought up with the puritanical attitude to gambling that seems to pervade the US.

Show me this textbook. There's no way that "A might cause B" is a slippery slope argument. A slippery slope requires a chain of events to be triggered, not just one.

Keevan_Colton · Post by **Keevan_Colton** » 2007-08-28 02:15pm

I think that the structure of bookies in the US makes this possible more than anything else. Over here bookkeepers are strictly regulated and generally take the form of corporations rather than shady individuals with professional thumb-breakers on their staff...the fact is you cant go in debt to Ladbrokes or William Hill because it's always cash up front or no bet...they dont get any "leverage" on people that bet anymore than a supermarket gets leverage on shoppers...

It's basically down to the same shit that gives drug dealers leverage, the illegal nature of the business lends itself to less than sterling business practices...

Elfdart · Post by **Elfdart** » 2007-08-28 02:18pm

I didn't know that about bookmakers in the UK. Over here, bookies are very much like dope dealers. A big difference.

spaceaddict · Post by **spaceaddict** » 2007-08-30 01:23pm

Edi wrote:I don't know why, but it seems to me to be pretty much an American idea that simply saying I'm sorry is supposed to get people off the hook for all kinds of shit. Just say the words, throw in some superficial bit about God and Jesus and faith and everybody's supposed to act as if that makes it all okay and you're looked on like some kind of monster if you don't forgive completely reprehensible scum for their crimes.

We've got some of the same here too, with public figures thinking just saying sorry should get them off the hook, but it's not nearly as widespread and few people fall for it. It doesn't really get them anywhere, fortunately.

I guess the fact that he is going to jail for 12 to 18 months means nothing to you? He most likely won't be in the NFL for 2 years after he gets out is some sort of "superficial" appology?Please explain how that is "getting of the hook".

Keevan_Colton · Post by **Keevan_Colton** » 2007-08-30 01:27pm

Spaceaddict accusing a mod of an abuse of power split.

Post by **Edi** » 2007-08-30 03:37pm

spaceaddict wrote:
Edi wrote:I don't know why, but it seems to me to be pretty much an American idea that simply saying I'm sorry is supposed to get people off the hook for all kinds of shit. Just say the words, throw in some superficial bit about God and Jesus and faith and everybody's supposed to act as if that makes it all okay and you're looked on like some kind of monster if you don't forgive completely reprehensible scum for their crimes.

We've got some of the same here too, with public figures thinking just saying sorry should get them off the hook, but it's not nearly as widespread and few people fall for it. It doesn't really get them anywhere, fortunately.
I guess the fact that he is going to jail for 12 to 18 months means nothing to you? He most likely won't be in the NFL for 2 years after he gets out is some sort of "superficial" appology?Please explain how that is "getting of the hook".

You will please point out to me where I said that Vick was getting off the hook? Just to clarify it for you, that post is talking about the attitude that somehow saying sorry should make it all right and wipe the slate clean and that those who refuse to forgive people who say they're sorry (however insincere or sincere) and that they've found Jesus and God and faith are somehow bad people. For some reason, too many people think that just saying those things actually mean something, when it really means fuckall and merits no automatic forgiveness whatsoever.