Australian gay bar wins right to ban heterosexuals

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Post by Stark »

Bubble Boy wrote:Maybe straight bars can ban gays, except on certain days. That way they're not "discriminating" against them. :roll:
If straight people were afraid of 'harrassment' or being 'dehumanised' by gay men, surely they could ban them from their ANZAC party? :)

I'm still curious about the actual function. Having a private function with a select clientele is far less objectionable than being given carte blanche to prevent straight people from entering at any time. Frankly, the idea of prevent even straight women from entering is absurd: none of the straight girls I know would have any problem 'demonstrating' their 'homosexuality' to get in.
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Post by Schuyler Colfax »

Considering how doubled standard the world is this doesn't suprise me at all. Actually if you think about it they would let bisexuals in because wouldn't a bisexual go there to meet or just have a good time with men. (Just guessing)
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Post by The Duchess of Zeon »

If they don't want to let in straight people, why can't they just turn it into a members-only club? Then the membership bylaws could limit membership to homosexuals, and only members and their guests would be admitted (also dealing with the asinine problem of preventing a woman from visiting the club with her gay father to relax and drink with him, which makes the Montreal example really repulsive to me).
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Post by Glocksman »

Darth Wong wrote:Does anyone have any details on this ruling, as opposed to a ridiculously short reporter's article about it?
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Affirmative Action (in the Sense of Exemption from Antidiscrimination Law) for Gay Venues?

From Peel Hotel Pty Ltd., Victorian Civil & Administrative Tribunal, VCAT 916 (24 May 2007) (some paragraph breaks added):

8 The Peel is a hotel and social venue. It primarily provides (as well as its hotel services) dancing and music. It is very popular. It has many hundreds of patrons on weekend nights (including Fridays). Over a week, it will have thousands of patrons.

9 The Peel aims to provide its facilities primarily for gay men. While is has marketed itself primarily to the gay male community, it has not hitherto sought exemption from the EO Act because it was believed that it could operate in a way that welcomed all, excluded none, but focused on or was aimed primarily at gay male patrons. It has this focus because it seeks to provide a safe, non-threatening, comfortable and enjoyable social environment for the gay male community.

10 I accept Mr McFeely’s evidence that providing such an environment is important for a number of reasons. Although gay men are now less at risk than they were in the past to various issues and behaviours, there are still instances of sexuality-related violence, insult, ostracism, derision, harassment and hostility. These are directed to gay men by other members of the community. Some of these occur when gay men display towards each other what society would tolerate among heterosexuals behaving as a couple -– kissing, hugging, or expressing love, attraction or affection in a physically intimate way. This venue is designed to provide an environment where gay men can do these things, can socialise, can make friends, can meet and find prospective partners without an atmosphere of derision, hostility or insult or even of violence. It provides an atmosphere where they can express themselves physically or sexually in a way that would be acceptable among men and women in a mixed sex venue.

11 The venue aims to provide gay men with the same opportunities as mixed sexes have in the venues to which I have referred. There are many thousands of these venues across the Melbourne CBD....

13 The venue has operated without difficulty for many years. It is an all-night venue, operating from 9pm until dawn. It has live music and no cover charge. Perhaps because of these factors, increasing numbers of heterosexual men and women and lesbians have particularly over the past year asked to enter the venue. A number of difficulties have arisen. I accept Mr McFeely’s evidence and Sergeant Mercer’s evidence about these.

14 If heterosexual men and women and lesbians come to the venue in large groups, then their numbers may be enough to “swamp” the numbers of gay male patrons. This would undermine or destroy the atmosphere which the company wishes to create. Sometimes, heterosexual groups and lesbian groups insult and deride and are even physically violent towards the gay male patrons. In doing these things, they use sexually-based insults. Sometimes, groups seek to use the venue for parties and it is clear from Mr McFeely’s affidavit that these groups wish to look at the behaviour of the gay male patrons as a kind of spectacle or entertainment for the group’s enjoyment. Entry of these groups would undermine or destroy the unique atmosphere which aims to foster and not frighten or discomfit its gay male patrons.

15 I accept Mr McFeely’s evidence that there are a large number of alternative venues which provide similar kinds of services to that provided at the Peel Hotel. These venues can be attended by people of any sex, any sexual orientation or any gender identity. I also accept his evidence that there are a very significant number of venues which market their services to lesbians. The Glasshouse, which is a venue close to the Peel Hotel, is one of these.

16 The Peel does not wish to have an all-male or all-gay male environment. It simply wishes to preserve its primarily gay male environment and its non-threatening atmosphere in which gay males can feel comfortable to express affection, physical intimacy or sexuality in a way that will not make them a target of derision, hostility or criticism and where that behaviour might, if expressed in a mixed sex venue, lead to that hostility, derision or criticism.

Should the exemption be granted?

17 In my view, it should.... There is no express exception provision which clearly applies. However, the application is in the spirit of those express exception provisions which seek to allow special measures to be taken to redress disadvantage suffered by those with a particular attribute. An example of these is s82.

18 The exemption promotes that objective of the Act which is to promote the recognition and acceptance of everyone’s right to equality of opportunity. It seeks to give gay men a space in which they may, without inhibition, meet, socialise and express physical attraction to each other in a non-threatening atmosphere, in a way that heterosexual couples have in mixed sex venues.

19 It is also consistent with the scheme of the Act. The Act now includes attributes of sexual orientation and gender identity. It has always included the attribute of lawful sexual activity. The objective concerning the recognition and acceptance of equality of opportunity applies equally to all attributes, including these three. Just as it is consistent with the Act’s objective to provide special measures to redress disadvantage suffered by, for example, women or those with disability, so also is it consistent with that objective to provide this venue for those with a particular sexual orientation.

20 The exemption also seeks to prevent discrimination against gay men, for whom this venue is designed. The anti-social behaviour which would be at the heart of a decision to refuse or restrict entry to groups of heterosexuals or lesbians is sexuality-based behaviour and includes sexuality-based insults and derision. It would be most unfortunate if at this venue, gay men were subjected to the very behaviour that the venue seeks to protect them from.

I would add that I take a similar view of the restriction or refusal of entry to those groups who wish to use the venue for “hens’ nights” and the like, where they wish to use the gay male patrons as a form of entertainment. To regard the gay male patrons of the venue as providing an entertainment or spectacle to be stared at as one would at an animal at a zoo, devalues and dehumanises them. It is, although subtle, another form of sexuality-based humiliation or discrimination. In my view, it is appropriate to grant the exemption.

A few thoughts:

(1) I sympathize with everyone's desire not to be attacked or insulted, and gays certainly have special reason to worry about that. But if the concern is antigay violence or insults, I'm not sure how the "gay men only" policy would address that.

I take it that the bouncers at the nightclub don't have perfect gaydar; I doubt they'd evict a group of would-be harassers (likely an all-male group, I'd expect) because they can tell the harassers aren't gay. They'd evict them because they're being violent or insulting. Why then not just have a policy of evicting the violent.

(2) If the concern is about gays' discomfort with being viewed in a certain way, isn't that close kin to the concern that has long been used to support discrimination against gays? (A) Some straight men don't like feeling that they are being viewed with lust by some gays. (B) Some gay men don't like the feeling that their social activities are being viewed as entertainment by some women.

The premise of bans on sexual orientation discrimination is that attitude (A) is no reason to exclude people from public places based on sexual orientation: If you don't like what you think someone is thinking when he's looking at you, deal with it, don't have him kicked out. Why should attitude (B) be any more persuasive a justification for discrimination?

(3) If the concern is about gays wanting to be in a predominantly gay environment, my sense is that successful gay venues can generally accomplish this just fine without kicking out nongays. Such venues tend to disproportionately attract gays, and while there are occasional outsiders visiting, the repeat business will largely be those people who feel most comfortable in the environment, and most interested in the environment. (Maybe I'm too influenced by having lived near West Hollywood for so long, though; I'd love to hear what others with other experiences have to say about this.) And even if for some reason too many straights show up and the venue stops being seen as having "the atmosphere which the company wishes to create," I don't quite see why maintaining a mostly-gay atmosphere is any stronger a justification for discrimination than maintaining an all-straight atmosphere, an all-male atmosphere, an all-female atmosphere, an all-Armenian atmosphere, or whatever else.

(4) One can debate whether bans on sexual orientation discrimination (or other discrimination) in privately owned public places are sound. But it seems to me that the project of persuading people to treat people equally without regard to sexual orientation will be more retarded than advanced by having the antidiscrimination law itself discriminate. Even if there are exceptions to this, and one accepts "affirmative action" justifications for special treatment for historically disfavored groups, it seems to me that there ought to be at least some powerful and factually supported reason for any particular justification. I don't see much such reason here.
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Post by Flagg »

How the hell can you even enforce this, anyway? Do men have to deepthroat a dildo at the door and women have to show their technique on a rubber pussy, or something?
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Post by Pick »

Flagg wrote:How the hell can you even enforce this, anyway? Do men have to deepthroat a dildo at the door and women have to show their technique on a rubber pussy, or something?
According to the blog post above, they apparently want gay men only. This seems odd to me, since I wouldn't think most of the problems they might hypothetically have with heterosexuals (such as aforementioned hopeful queerdears) would apply to lesbian clients of the bar. Huh.
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Post by The Duchess of Zeon »

Pick wrote:
Flagg wrote:How the hell can you even enforce this, anyway? Do men have to deepthroat a dildo at the door and women have to show their technique on a rubber pussy, or something?
According to the blog post above, they apparently want gay men only. This seems odd to me, since I wouldn't think most of the problems they might hypothetically have with heterosexuals (such as aforementioned hopeful queerdears) would apply to lesbian clients of the bar. Huh.
The problem is apparently that the men want an all-male atmosphere, which is very common in male homosexual subculture. Homoerotic overtones permeate all male-only organizations, from bath-houses to the regimental mess (A very extreme example: There was this gay survivor of Nazi Germany who featured in a programme on gays in the holocaust. He'd been beaten up and imprisoned early on in the Nazi regime, but then let out. He survived the harsher years by joining the Waffen SS instead of fleeing the country. The reason? "So I could be around other men"). They don't want female admirers around; they're distracting and they make the gay men feel uncomfortable.

But the solution to this isn't discrimination, it's forming private clubs.
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Post by DPDarkPrimus »

So what to do about bi-sexuals?
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Post by Lost Soal »

DPDarkPrimus wrote:So what to do about bi-sexuals?
From the looks of it, Bi-Sexual males wouldn't have a problem since they would be, presumable, going to the club for a homosexual hook-up, atmosphere or whatever.
Whoever they leave with may get annoyed later when they find out they swing both ways, but for that perticular night it was men they wanted and thats all that apparently matters.
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Post by Darth Wong »

Glocksman's post detailing the ruling gives much more insight into the justification for it. If heterosexuals have been entering the bar in large numbers and openly mocking and laughing at gay patrons for acting gay (leaving aside the incidents of actual violence), it would be understandable that the bar would want to turf out anyone who acts like they "don't belong".

As I've said many times, you can get all idealistic and say that weak minorities discriminating against powerful majorities are just as bad as powerful majorities discriminating against weak minorities, but that's a load of bullshit.

PS. The fact that the bar owner's name is "Mr. McFeely" is the funniest thing I've heard all day.
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Post by His Divine Shadow »

I would have thought existing legislation would have allowed them to keep out anyone who might be there to incite trouble without having to include sexuality as a basis for discrimination, which just opens up this can of worms. A simple "I don't like the look of you, fucker" from the bouncer should be enough.
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His Divine Shadow wrote:I would have thought existing legislation would have allowed them to keep out anyone who might be there to incite trouble without having to include sexuality as a basis for discrimination, which just opens up this can of worms. A simple "I don't like the look of you, fucker" from the bouncer should be enough.
The problem is that making fun of gays and making them feel uncomfortable or nervous is not technically violence, and so simply stating a "no violence" policy would be ineffective in dealing with the problem. And I can almost guarantee that they went to the courts in the first place because some asshole threatened to sue them if they wouldn't let him keep coming to the bar with all of his straight friends and making fun of gays. And if the bouncer just says "I don't like the look of you", they can claim anti-straight discrimination anyway.
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Post by Flagg »

Darth Wong wrote:
His Divine Shadow wrote:I would have thought existing legislation would have allowed them to keep out anyone who might be there to incite trouble without having to include sexuality as a basis for discrimination, which just opens up this can of worms. A simple "I don't like the look of you, fucker" from the bouncer should be enough.
The problem is that making fun of gays and making them feel uncomfortable or nervous is not technically violence, and so simply stating a "no violence" policy would be ineffective in dealing with the problem. And I can almost guarantee that they went to the courts in the first place because some asshole threatened to sue them if they wouldn't let him keep coming to the bar with all of his straight friends and making fun of gays. And if the bouncer just says "I don't like the look of you", they can claim anti-straight discrimination anyway.
Wouldn't that count as disorderly conduct? I imagine the owner could get a restraining order as well. I dunno how I feel about this, though. It seems like they could make this a private club, rather than to leave it public and allowing them to discriminate. Unless there is something in Australian law which forbids private clubs from discrimination.
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Post by Darth Wong »

Flagg wrote:
Darth Wong wrote:
His Divine Shadow wrote:I would have thought existing legislation would have allowed them to keep out anyone who might be there to incite trouble without having to include sexuality as a basis for discrimination, which just opens up this can of worms. A simple "I don't like the look of you, fucker" from the bouncer should be enough.
The problem is that making fun of gays and making them feel uncomfortable or nervous is not technically violence, and so simply stating a "no violence" policy would be ineffective in dealing with the problem. And I can almost guarantee that they went to the courts in the first place because some asshole threatened to sue them if they wouldn't let him keep coming to the bar with all of his straight friends and making fun of gays. And if the bouncer just says "I don't like the look of you", they can claim anti-straight discrimination anyway.
Wouldn't that count as disorderly conduct? I imagine the owner could get a restraining order as well.
Oh yeah, like that's practical when you have so many troublemakers coming in that they actually outnumber the gay patrons.
I dunno how I feel about this, though. It seems like they could make this a private club, rather than to leave it public and allowing them to discriminate. Unless there is something in Australian law which forbids private clubs from discrimination.
Making it a private club would also be a big hassle. The fact is that there is legal precedent for affirmative-action, and it is justified by the fact that minorities are not on a level playing field. If you're a victim of discrimination, and some form of "reverse discrimination" is necessary in order to get you some of the same privileges that regular people get anyway, it's just sophistic bullshit that makes people scream "NO FAIR!" as if you're somehow winning the game. These people can't go to regular bars; they can get the shit beat out of them if they come on to some guy and he turns out to be a homophobe.
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Post by Crown »

InnerBrat wrote:Whatever the reason, refusing to serve someone because of their gender or their sexuality is discrimination and it's unlawful (or I thought it was).
There are many precedents in Australia's anti-discrimination laws that allow for this kind of exemption. One that springs to mind is women only gyms. The arguement being that some/most women prefer to work out in an environment where they are not being oggled at by a pack of horny guys.

Is it 'discriminatory'? Absolutely. Is it also justified? I'm leaning to 'yes'.

Strangely though, 'gentlemen' only clubs have been ruled to be discriminatory by a Victorian court (from memory there was a case about it), however the difference being here, these clubs were used as social hotspots for networking by high powered executives and thus discriminated against female exec's trying to get their job done (they could effectively be out played by male rivals).

In this particular case the question of how one enforces this ban is interesting (it just lends more credibility to the whole 'Gay Mafia' mythos - Godfather Elton is watching this thread I'm sure), however given the reasons stated by the articles presented in this thread it is pretty understandable.

By they by, been absolutely swamped at work (yay for me), so I haven't been posting on many threads that have caught my interest, however I saw that no one really answered Inner's question, so I just wanted to pop in and give a clear answer to it. Doesn't help that I don't have internet at home either and I'm doing this on my lunch break.

Anyway, tootles people, until another time when I (hopefully) have internet sorted at home!
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Post by Crown »

Ghetto Edit :: Bah! Gief Edit to me!
I wrote:Strangely though, 'gentlemen' only clubs have been ruled to be discriminatory by a Victorian court (from memory there was a case about it), however the difference being here, these clubs were used as social hotspots for networking by high powered executives and thus discriminated against female exec's trying to get their job done (they could effectively be out played by male rivals).
Rather than 'Stragely ...' it should read 'Interestingly ...' as given the reasons stated it's not 'strange' at all that the ruling went that way!

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Post by Flagg »

Darth Wong wrote:
Flagg wrote:
Darth Wong wrote: The problem is that making fun of gays and making them feel uncomfortable or nervous is not technically violence, and so simply stating a "no violence" policy would be ineffective in dealing with the problem. And I can almost guarantee that they went to the courts in the first place because some asshole threatened to sue them if they wouldn't let him keep coming to the bar with all of his straight friends and making fun of gays. And if the bouncer just says "I don't like the look of you", they can claim anti-straight discrimination anyway.
Wouldn't that count as disorderly conduct? I imagine the owner could get a restraining order as well.
Oh yeah, like that's practical when you have so many troublemakers coming in that they actually outnumber the gay patrons.
I dunno how I feel about this, though. It seems like they could make this a private club, rather than to leave it public and allowing them to discriminate. Unless there is something in Australian law which forbids private clubs from discrimination.
Making it a private club would also be a big hassle. The fact is that there is legal precedent for affirmative-action, and it is justified by the fact that minorities are not on a level playing field. If you're a victim of discrimination, and some form of "reverse discrimination" is necessary in order to get you some of the same privileges that regular people get anyway, it's just sophistic bullshit that makes people scream "NO FAIR!" as if you're somehow winning the game. These people can't go to regular bars; they can get the shit beat out of them if they come on to some guy and he turns out to be a homophobe.
Yeah, plus this sounds like a pretty backwards area, so the cops might not even take it seriousely. The gay bar I've been to had some guys in there that looked like they could easily kick anyones ass who started throwing around epithets.

As far as it not being "fair", yeah, it's totally not. But big fucking deal. If the worst thing that ever happens to you is that you can't go into a gay bar because you're straight, then I'd like to have your life.
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