S. 8472 vs Empire

[The Nomad]

Well I stopped reading after page 6 but there are a few points I want to make clear ( in case those arguments had already been used I apologize ) :

1°) Species 8472 are cowards.

*That's a good one. You have to remember the presence of Borg tech on Voyager - and the fact that S 8472 knew about Borg/VGR alliance. What would it have probably meant ? That S 8472 believed that the nanotech had already been shared with the Borg - they were perhaps already modifying nanoprobes even before the Type XIII biotorp was fired ! Now, probably unlike the Empire, the Borg could infiltrate Biospace - imagine the results. You are invulnerable, and one single second later you're on the verge of total obliteration. Personnaly I think it's not a real proof of cowardness to retreat in those conditions.
*And who told they retreated only because they were afraid ? Perhaps they were planning an immediate, massive evacuation of Biospace to another MW quadrant - or another galaxy, or galaxy cluster.
*Nanoprobes might cause some inimaginable pain - they're telepath, imagine they transmitted a fraction of this pain before dying. Imagine the Nazis did not fight with bullets but thrown millions of Aliens Face Huggers - perhaps this very form of death was what they fear above all, and Empire would not be likely to know about S 8472 weakness until they study it in depht.

2°) Species 8472's PK

*The beam was perhaps not entirely visible, and the beam continued after the visible part disappeared - why not ? After all, warsies rationalized effect-before-blaster-bolt-hit by the "invisible bolt part" thing. The PK might as well have been overwhelming a Borg planetary shield - canon mention of Alderaan's shield, besides the frame-per-frame analysis of a cheesy effect ? or charging, only reaching its final power the second it blew the planet up.
*In those conditions, I think that it is likely that S 8472 would need only 20 second to overwhelm the most powerful SW planetary shield.

3°) Species 8472's biotech

*Warsies are strange fellows. They're willing to accept that an "hypermatter" thing would generate more energy than M/AM, but bioship able to outmatch conventional ships, they don't ? In real world, okay. But if there're willing to glorify technologies beyond even our theories, then they must accept that biotech beyond our theories. The fusion which occurs with "heavy materials and radioactive gases" is supposed "not to have been theorized yet" ? Well perhaps these bioships are lifeforms "which hadn't been theorized yet".
*If we assume that they're shieldless
*Tiny "DNA computers" in the next decade will be able to calculate 100 000 times faster than our present fastest silicon supercomputer ( no web references, only a French scientific magazine from december 1999 - a serious one ). Makes you think, doesn't it ?

4°) Species 8472's number of ships.

*Hard to say. But here is an hypothesis : Species 8472's vessels and individuals have to "grow". But what would happen if the immune system of young vessels/individuals wasn't strong enough to resist to assimilation ? A single Borg ship would be the end of S 8472. Therefore it is logical to assume that the security around hatcheries or wathever facilities they have is extremely tight. Given the dispersion capacities of they "multi-kinetic neutron mines" or whatever fancy name ( not considering Tuvok's statement about the few trillion np needed ), then it would need trillions of ships to protect a single facility, destroy Borg cubes, intercept their warheads, destroy contaminated Biospace etc...
*Of course I slightly exagerate, but since the Empire is not likely to be able to go into Biospace, this should free some ships spared for defence purposes - and PK's, or give some Bioships the time to grow into PK's.

5°) Species 8472's FTL capacities.

*They can outrun Borg cubes and Intrepid-class at warp, which is not very impressive given the speed of hyperdrive.
*Since they have equal or greater tech than the Borg, it is likely to assume that they posess at least one type of Transwarp drive, whose performances are slighlty inferior, equal or much greater than hyperdrives' ones ( depends on what serie you base your estimation - TNG or VGR, or even episode ). Of course, equal doesn't mean identical, and for we've never seen them using transporters - perhaps they have known about it for millenia, this tech is not safe given the interferences they generate, but again, just because they don't use it doesn't mean they don't have it.
*if we assume that they're the agressors, then their Biospace must extend up to SW galaxy, which gives them the advantage of using hit-and-run tactics at will and travelling without being bothered by Imperials. Of course some might argue that VGR could have used it to return to the AQ, but 1) this kind of performance might be impossible with primitive Fed tech, barely able to cross dim. rifts with Borg help, 2) even if Biospace allows for space folding or "distances-shortening", you still have to cross it, and with hundreds of S 8472's ships I don't know if even the nanoprobes could save you once you've launched your type XIII biotorp - and see reasons above.


To sum up :
*if Imperials can't enter Biospace then bye the Empire
*if they can, then... how do you want it ? Crunchy or tender ?

[SirNitram]

BWAAAAHAHAHAHAHHAAAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHA

I've never seen more amusing Trekkie whines to attempt to drive apart actual calculations and observations.

The PK Beam's output isn't high enough to breach planetary shielding. Hell, using existing calc's, it isn't powerful enough to breach an Acclamator Transport's shielding!

[The Nomad]

Yups I forgot the "If they're shieldless"

*If they're shieldless, then their hull survived a direct Borg shot, which could have torn a Fed ship apart, whose hull of duranium is perhaps at least 20x times stronger than steel, and remained unscathed. Organic molecules are destroyed when temperature is higher than 400°C - even in the vacuum, Borg plasma bolts might be several thousands of degrees. It wasn't even burnt.

And another comment :
*have you ever seen a lifeform which uses antimatter as food ? ( perhaps to trigger ZPF reactions a la quantum torpedoes, and power PKs )

[The Nomad]

BWAAAAHAHAHAHAHHAAAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHA

I've never seen more amusing Trekkie whines to attempt to drive apart actual calculations and observations.

The PK Beam's output isn't high enough to breach planetary shielding. Hell, using existing calc's, it isn't powerful enough to breach an Acclamator Transport's shielding!

The whining "Trekkie" ( trek fan would be a better classification, as well as wars fan ) says : f*ck you, "warsie asshole".

Last time I checked it is able to destroy planets, which is likely to mean psssshhhhht - gone ! Guess what, I just rewatched this scene, there is no more planet, and the debris are sent to several planetary diameters. Doesn't this remind you of something called a Death Star ? It isn't even a Planet Killer, it's a Planet Destroyer, according to Mike Wong's flawed classification.
Guess what, it would take at the very last 10^32 joules ( in fact probably something like 10^36 or 10^38, power reached in a few seconds, meaning that the power generation of S 8472 is several orders of magnitude higher than the Empire's one ) , which is billion times more than needed to breach an Acclamator's shield ( something like 10^22 watts at peak efficiency ).


Conclusion : BWHAHAHAHAHHAHHAAHHAAHA you whining warsie.

[SirNitram]

Poor little Trekkie. Well, as I'm the one who actually did math on the explosion(Which you'd know if you actually read the thread, instead of marching in and starting up your 'TREK RULEZ' tirade), and it didn't work by conventional DET. You probably aren't even aware of what DET means, but I digress. Provide a shred of proof or a calculation placing the PK beam above 1e28J.

[Howedar]

It isn't even a Planet Killer, it's a Planet Destroyer, according to Mike Wong's flawed classification.

Fucking Christ, did you even read that page? The 8472 PK is grouped with the Death Star in the Planet Destroyer bracket, because they destroy planets. They don't just "kill" them - ie kill all life on them.

[Crown]

Well just so that I am clear...

Originally posted by me;
No offence, but haven't we already put this thread to bed when we showed that the Empire was well versed at creating/manipulating nano tech into viruses? Ergo S-8472 just run away like ala la Voyager eps?

Why yes Crown we have.

Doesn't that mean that after they get infected by the Empire that they will just turn tail and run like in Voyager?

Why yes Crown according to Canon that would be S-847283298264's MO....


Always nice to have a conversation with one's self.

[Sothis]

Lets sum up everything known about S8472:

They can destroy Borg ships in a few shots, they can destroy entire planets. Assuming a running battle in ST:FC involving, lets say, 100 Fed ships, lasting the length of time it took the Ent-E to get from the Neutral Zone to Earth (have no idea of this), then a single bio-ship can, with only 2-3 shots, accomplish what it takes 100 Fed ships and a running battle to accomplish- the destruction or disabling of a Borg cube.

In regards to planets, the planet took several seconds to actually blow, but when it did, the matter ejected appeared to be moving not much slower than the Borg cube towing Voyager. It's reasonable to assuming that the Borg cube would be travelling at full-impulse to get away, and that the matter was ejected at a speed not too far below this. If I recall correctly, there were not many large pieces of the planet either- the mass had been thoroughly blasted to bits.

The formation of the planet killer (8 standard ship plus 1 different design) has led to some debate over how much power each ship is contributing to the beam. Some say the 8 standard bio-ships contribute nearly all of the power- in which case why the middle ship? Others argue that the middle ship does most of the work- in which case why link up with several other vessels. Most likely, the 8 bio-ships contribute a high level of energy, but a central ship is required to supply a significant portion of energy as well.

S8472 have limited telepathic abilities. They have warp capability. Conventional weapons can harm them (the 8472 ship in Scorpion P1 was regenerating when Chakotay, Tuvok and Kim boarded the cube it was attached to), but we don't know the firepower limit needed to damage an 8472 vessel. If you know their biological weaknesses, you can harm them with viruses and nano-probes.