S. 8472 vs Empire

[Kamakazie Sith]

No, that's not what I am saying. Lets imagine you are part of a unit...you walking through a city which may have enemy forces in it. A MG emplacement opens up on you kill several of your men

Do you;

A) Continue doing the same thing you were before the MG fired on you.

B) Find another way to bypass the MG, or find a way to take it out?

This is what I am saying....

When Voyager fired on S8472 with these new weapons....S8472 retreated and began planning.

If we are using S8472/Borg as an analogy, use my vastly superior firepower to destroy the encampment. Just because several of your soldiers die is no excuse to order a full retreat and abandon the mission, which is exactly what S8472 did. They had a very easy way to combat the Borg, even with their new weapon. They already control when and where the battle is happening and by virtue of their drives will always have superior numbers, just because things are a little bit messier doesn't nullify these sizeable advantages. If anything, it should have spurred them to step up attacks, to break the Borg industrial base and choke their resources.
The problem is that you are buying into the one shot wonder idea. One shot wonders are hardly undefeatable, especially with the sizable advantages that S8472 had.

Accept that your bullets don't kill in one hit...your enemies do. How would that effect your actions?

[Darth Wong]

That's it, Darkling. Don't even bother trying to answer individual points, or answer for your distortions of evidence (see the magical "growing evidence" trick you employed earlier). Just use the appeal to ridicule.

For you theory to work we must assume the following:-
8472 are weak.
8472 are cowards.

No, you must choose between one or the other.

To futher support this we must also assume the following :-
Members of species 8472 have no unde3rstanding of transit to or from their realm.

Either that, or a wounded, cornered person will try anything out of desperation. Gee, that wouldn't have any precedent in real life, would it?

7 of 9 has no understanding of transit to or from 8472's realm. Janeway and co have no understanding of transit to or from 8472s realm.

Or they have incomplete understanding of transit to and from 8472's realm. You are committing the black/white fallacy now. Do you believe there is no middle ground between having "no understanding" and having complete, perfect understanding?

8472's telepathy works across the dimensional barrier.

Ah, I see. First, they're intelligent tacticians who logically retreat to gather intel. Then, they're suddenly mindless animals who don't even notice a missing man, and who are not even maintaining the most superficial listening activities in our space, so they can't possibly know of telepathic distress calls unless those calls can enter their space. Yet again, you demonstrate that you have no interest in generating a coherent theory; you simply say whatever you think you can use to contradict me on any given point.

8472 magically knew enough about the federation to judge their power - how, well they just did - somehow, justification - the two years they spent monitoring SF command couldnt possibly have give this knowledge so they simply magically obtained it from the ether as soon as they met the Federation.

They spent two years letting the Borg rebuild their strength and took no action against them, even though they should have easily determined that A) the Federation lacks the power and speed to threaten them and B) the Borg cannot hurt them. And they should have easily determined these things long before they had a complete replica of Starfleet Academy.

Face it; "Scorpion" was the last major offensive they ever launched, despite the continuing threat of the Borg. You have no explanation for this, so you try to nitpick my explanation instead.

Not attacking everything in sight makes you either a coward or pacifist.

Strawman. Let me give you the correct version: not attacking someone who is trying to assimilate you when you have the power to do so makes you either a coward or a pacifist. Of course, you are free to deny that they are cowards or pacifists; simply admit that they do not have the power to do what you claim they can do.

Trying to discover information about an enemy is cowardly, charging in without intel is the way all REAL MEN conduct war.

Taking two years to do intel on a third party while your enemy rebuilds his forces and you had your foot on his throat is the way REAL MORONS conduct war. Completely suspending all military operations pending intel on a third party which, as far as you can tell at the moment, has precisely one ship and is evacuating the war zone, is the way REAL COWARDS conduct war. Deal with it.

[Gil Hamilton]

Gil Hamilton: In an offensive war you are correct - even with the new super weapon 8472 could still beat the Borg because they could decide upon the place and time of engagements, apart from the fact that the Borg could go into Fluidic space in droves and attack them there.

You also discount the fact that a new player with seemingly advanced tech suddenly appeared on the field - thats going to give anyone pause.

You mean Voyager? A single ship that even less powerful than a Borg ship? How is that going to give them pause? Just send a few ships to blow her out of space. A single ship is not a major threat, it's just another minor sortie.

[Gil Hamilton]

Accept that your bullets don't kill in one hit...your enemies do. How would that effect your actions?

I'm afraid I don't understand how that changes anything.

[Darth Wong]

The problem is that you are buying into the one shot wonder idea. One shot wonders are hardly undefeatable, especially with the sizable advantages that S8472 had.

Accept that your bullets don't kill in one hit...your enemies do. How would that effect your actions?

I agree with your position if your tactical balance is correct, and S8472 is not capable of one-hit one-kill attacks on both cubes and entire planets.

Darkling, of course, wants to have it both ways; he wants your scenario but he also wants them to be capable of one-hit one-kill attacks on both cubes and entire planets, and he wants to give them the ability to appear anywhere in the galaxy at any time with no warning (with planet-killers, which he presumes to be plentiful), as a bonus. One must choose.

[TheDarkling]

Darth Wong: Dont put words in my mouth the ones in your own arent upto much, they arent capable of one hit kills on cubes I have stated as much.

Yes you can interpret it that he was desperate.
Yes you can interpret it that 7 didnt really nkow how the portal into fluidic space really worked (she was given knowledge on how to open it and im sure any knowledge known on 8472's abilities was given to het when she was their representative but we can stretch it and kinda smudge the facts so they fit your theory.)

Dont notice a missing man - a man who was injured by the enemy and could have been presumed dead?
We dont know the range on their telepathy but their comms range is good, however since his ship was damaged (injured?) its possible that his comms also went down.

Yes they let the Borg rebuild because they were more worried about the Feds and the X factor they pressented - the Borg werent the threat that destroyed their ships remember.
Once they realised that the Borg didnt constitute a threat they no longer needed to attack them.

Someone who is trying to assimilate you - yes however the Borg were beaten back and may not have bothered 8472 again so 8472 decided that it wasnt necessary to wipe the Borg out.

My theory is here.

The borg attack 8472 causing them distress.
8472 starting kicking the Borg all over the delta quadrant.
Suddenly one ship appears and wipe out several vessels and thrfeaten expand operations if 8472 dont withdraw.
8472 withdraw but want to learn about this new threat to them.
They gather Intel and start training spies.
The feds turn up and play nice.
8472 realises' that all other life isnt scum and that the Borg still arent a threat, however since the Borg havent attacked fluidic space again so 8472 decide that instead of starting another war they will let the matter lie (Prehaps an error in tactics).
Something happens in the Beta Quadrant and a small battle happens however it isnt clear exactly who is attacking who or for what reason.

Why pull out - easy to judge the enemy and also prevent a strike against your homeland while you forces are attacking enemy holdings.

The strange case of the lost bioship - he was presummed dead and was out of contact.

Now you theory requires him to try something that wont work whereas mine actual construes it as working which also fits in with 7 and janeways.
It also accounts for why the 8472 wasnt picked up by his friends - in your theory we must assume that 8472 is too afraid to rescue him but they will start the convoys to build the various biodomes and that they will build these biodomes even though they fear appearing in normal space for 30 seconds.

It also explains the 8472 in Beta quadrant and the Biodomes which are well outside Borg space.
Yours asks us to believe that 8472 set up a convoy to create this biodome from borg space (and I believe reference is made to more biodomes existing elsewhere.)

[Kamakazie Sith]

Gil Hamilton: In an offensive war you are correct - even with the new super weapon 8472 could still beat the Borg because they could decide upon the place and time of engagements, apart from the fact that the Borg could go into Fluidic space in droves and attack them there.

You also discount the fact that a new player with seemingly advanced tech suddenly appeared on the field - thats going to give anyone pause.

You mean Voyager? A single ship that even less powerful than a Borg ship? How is that going to give them pause? Just send a few ships to blow her out of space. A single ship is not a major threat, it's just another minor sortie.

The fact that this single ship was able to go from negative threat to a one shot kill threat.

[ArmorPierce]

It was said in another episode by 7 of 9 that species 8472 destroyed hundreds of planets.

[Kamakazie Sith]

Accept that your bullets don't kill in one hit...your enemies do. How would that effect your actions?

I'm afraid I don't understand how that changes anything.

At first S8472 was able to kill borg cubes with one blast.....but that change later on in the episode.

It now takes mutiple blasts to kill a borg cube, and to kill Voyager.....

Voyager now has a weapon that can kill with one shot, and another weapon that can kill multiple targets with one shot.

In infantry..this might be acceptable but when it comes to ships, it is not. You don't want to needlessly sacrifice your ships just to overpower what may be one of many. You'd want to approach differently.

[Darth Wong]

My theory is here.
The borg attack 8472 causing them distress.
8472 starting kicking the Borg all over the delta quadrant.
Suddenly one ship appears and wipe out several vessels and thrfeaten expand operations if 8472 dont withdraw.

In other words, after causing millions and perhaps billions of casualties, they take 10 casualties of their own (largely due to tactical incompetence) and they run, never to return. This vast disparity in weapon effectiveness is not enough for them to continue.

8472 withdraw but want to learn about this new threat to them.
They gather Intel and start training spies.

For two years, thus giving the Borg plenty of time to rebuild and figure out a way to hurt them, which shouldn't be too hard since they stumbled onto a tactic by ramming one.

The feds turn up and play nice.
8472 realises' that all other life isnt scum and that the Borg still arent a threat, however since the Borg havent attacked fluidic space again so 8472 decide that instead of starting another war they will let the matter lie (Prehaps an error in tactics).

Try "astoundingly, mind-boggliny, indescribably stupid error", and from the same people who supposedly ran from 10 casualties because of a reasoned, logical plan.[/quote]

Something happens in the Beta Quadrant and a small battle happens however it isnt clear exactly who is attacking who or for what reason.

But the point is that hostilities have not completely ceased, which throws a wrench into your theory, doesn't it? If S8472 and the Borg are not longer in conflict, then why the skirmish? If they are in conflict, then why isn't S8472 stomping the Borg again, if they're as powerful as you say?

My theory explains all of the phenomena yours handles, and it handles all of the uncomfortable problems to boot:

• Precondition: S8472 is much less numerous than you claim it is, and its speed and range is also much smaller, thus forcing them to use conventional tactics unless they're completely invulnerable to enemy weapons
• The Borg attacks 8472.
• 8472 counter-attacks, with the objective of exterminating the Borg and restoring "purity". They cause massive damage, depopulating hundreds of planets and hundreds, perhaps thousands of ships. Their own casualties are nonexistent, since the Borg weapons appear to be completely useless.
• Voyager shows up and helps the Borg make effective weapons. Finally, the Borg can do damage to S8472 ships. S8472 suffers 5-10 casualties.
• S8472 is stunned. As a species which completely dominates their own environment (and which may be extremely long-lived, if not immortal, given their regeneration abilities), they are completely unfamiliar with the concept of death in combat. They are the hunters, not the hunted. Like Q once stripped of his immortality, they are more terrified of death than beings who are accustomed to the idea.
• They retreat in fear and confusion, not thinking to search for survivors, not thinking to attack this "Voyager" with massive force before it can distribute this weapon elsewhere, and not thinking to leave a scout behind so that stranded or wounded personnel can request evac ("fuck 'em, we're outta here and we're not even going to bother checking").
• After cowering in their own space for months, they finally, timidly venture out again, but only in secrecy, using camouflaged ships and agents to enter Borg space and then sneak out to safe areas where they can plan a takeover of the Federation using camouflaged operatives.
• They determine that the Federation has no plans to attack them, so they scrap the takeover. However, there is still the matter of the Borg, who do intend to attack them, if not today then tomorrow, or the next year, or the next decade. It is inevitable. They must resume the war, with the sobering knowledge that they are not invulnerable.
• Unfortunately, the Borg have developed tactics for dealing with them by now. This may be primitive kinetic penetrator weapons, or they may have recovered modified nanoprobes from the site where Voyager deployed them against S8472. Either way, S8472 can no longer waltz through Borg territory with impunity.
• At the time of Unimatrix Zero, the Borg and S8472 are locked in a stalemate because they're nowhere near as powerful as you make it seem with your "S8472 blows up Imperial planets left and right" scenarios, and their encounters consist only of occasional skirmishes when one side or the other makes an incursion. Either that, or S8472 simply lacks the courage to send large numbers of its soldiers into enemy territory, so it is content to fight a defensive war.

Which theory makes more sense? Your theory requires that S8472 can effortlessly stomp the Borg but choose not to out of monumental stupidity, despite having tried to before, and having all the motivation in the universe to do so. It also requires that they pulled out and left not even a single scout behind, so that any stranded or wounded personnel are screwed (but oh no, they didn't panic; they did this calmly and rationally). It requires that their best, most logical response to a new weapon was to quietly wait and take no offensive action for two years, which should be more than enough time for the weapon to be widely deployed, or for other weapons to be developed (particularly since they don't know how stupid the Borg are). It requires that a vast tactical disparity in which one side's shots kill whole planets and the other side's shots kill but a single one-man fighter be considered "MAD", as if the two sides have achieved parity. It requires that their "intel gathering" was so incompetent that they couldn't figure out whether the Federation was a threat to their vast planet-destroying war fleet until Janeway said they were peaceful, even though it was simultaneously so good that they had an accurate mockup of Starfleet Academy, complete with visibly accurate characters (another one of those uncomfortable self-contradictions).

My theory works without all of these acrobatics. It explains all of the phenomena easily, without having to rely on silly notions of S8472 backing off despite unremitting Borg hostility (ie- being pacifist), halting a war that is on the brink of victory because of a measly 10 casualties and then crawling into hiding for two years while the enemy rebuilds his strength and works on ways to improve his chances for next time, beating a hasty retreat from Borg territory that shows all of the signs of panic (but not being panicked), having millions of ships despite being stunned at the loss of 10, etc.

Why pull out - easy to judge the enemy and also prevent a strike against your homeland while you forces are attacking enemy holdings.

Nonsense. According to S8472 cult dogma, they need dedicate only 8 ships to attack enemy holdings, and these 8 ships will systematically exterminate planet after planet with impunity. They can retain the rest of their "millions" of ships to defend against the Borg. The risk is limited to 8 ships, and they can continue doing damage to the enemy. The worst-case scenario is that they take 8 more casualties. Compare this to the worst-case scenario for inaction: total restoration of their enemy's strength and widespread deployment of this new weapon. No, the appearance of a new weapon is an indicator that they should step up their assault, to finish them off quickly.

The strange case of the lost bioship - he was presummed dead and was out of contact.

Completely consistent with panicked flight; they could not be bothered to account for missing personnel.

Now you theory requires him to try something that wont work whereas mine actual construes it as working which also fits in with 7 and janeways.

It didn't work. That is an observation, while you are attempting to contradict it with conjecture and speculation based on dialogue and preferred interpretations of motives and knowledge behind said dialogue. You don't see the imbalance here?

It also accounts for why the 8472 wasnt picked up by his friends - in your theory we must assume that 8472 is too afraid to rescue him but they will start the convoys to build the various biodomes and that they will build these biodomes even though they fear appearing in normal space for 30 seconds.

Hardly. They didn't work up the courage to make their timid, camouflaged reappearance in our galaxy until long after he was dead. Is that so difficult to understand? Why must you continue to fight against the obvious conclusion that their retreat was not an orderly one, but rather, one borne of panic?

It also explains the 8472 in Beta quadrant and the Biodomes which are well outside Borg space. Yours asks us to believe that 8472 set up a convoy to create this biodome from borg space

Of course, using sporadic and carefully camouflaged ships and operatives for this wholly unnecessary circus act, which is why it took two years, despite the enormous strategic penalty caused by this long delay. Or should we hew to your preferred explanation instead, which is that it was actually logical to wait that long and collect intel in the most inefficient conceivable manner: constructing a biodome replica of Starfleet Academy (presumably from telepathic information gleaned from Voyager's crew) instead of simply monitoring troop movements, enemy fleet size, and the communications and/or thoughts of enemy personnel?

Does it occur to you that the biodome was obviously a proving grounds for an infiltration force, and not "intel" as you claim? What kind of brain-damaged dumb-fuck method of intel requires one to make a replica of a Starfleet Academy? When an army needs intel about another army, do they construct a replica of that army's training facilities? Why the fuck would they?

Face it, they did not have what it took to attack Starfleet directly and risk even one casualty (there are lots of possible reasons why, but the point is that they lacked something), so they decided to rely on camouflage and subterfuge instead (until Janeway convinced them that they had nothing to fear from the Federation).

(and I believe reference is made to more biodomes existing elsewhere.)

Frankly, given your past exaggeration of evidence regarding the Borg's "millions of ships", I need more than "I believe reference is made" as evidence. Besides, the existence of a biodome does not invalidate my point about the long delays, strategic penalties, and general uselessness of this activity for your "intel" argument.

[TheDarkling]

My theory explains everything yours explains apart from the second fight which I can easily puut down to the Borg trying to attack again or 8472 investigating our galaxy (it was in he Beta quadant - not in Borg space).

You theory requires everyone in Prey to have not enough info on the Fluidic space to know wether it would work or not.
Then you try and tell us 8472 cant even roam over Borg space which we see them doing.
Where do you get these millions of Bioships from? 1000s is a much more reasonable figure based on evidence yet more evidence you distort.
You also have the Borg comeing up with a new weapon - once again with no evidence.
It isnt for Intel gathering - its for infiltration, why? because they dont the feds to use the nano weapons against them.
Use also requires a secret convoy heading through Borg space without the Borg batting an eyelid - do they have some sort of super stealth, yet something else that you conjure up.

You add alot of unknowns and twist peoples actions to mean something other than what they seem to.

You cant be convnced that 8472 are anything other than cowards by anything sort of ..... actually you cant be convinced.
Your compex and weird theories have yet to convince me why I should alter canon statements into hyperbole and misconstrue peoples actions and limit their knowledge just to fit in with it.

[SirNitram]

Your theory is convulted and contradictory.

"No it's not!"

It is. We've explained why it's contradictory. You haven't yet explained how they can both be weak and powerful at the same time. You'll just complain, but you haven't explained how it isn't a contradiction. Wong's makes more sense, and explains everything in a far superior way.

Oh, of course, you claim everyone in Prey had to be in their calmest, most logical state.. Despte the Fugly being hunted was, you know, being hunted. Not a situation that species is used to.

[TheDarkling]

SirNitram: I dont claim they are both strong and weak.

They feared for their realm which if the borg got the nanoprobes would have been under threat.

No the one in prey was trying something that would never work because in had gone insane.
7 of 9 was also insane because she thought it would work.
Voyagers crew I could excuse but not the other two.

[Vympel]

Darkling I've read this entire debate and you've consistently failed to address many of the points that DW has made; that's extremely poor form. Why bother arguing if you just say the same thing AGAIN and AGAIN and don't even attempt to rebut?

So tedious ...

[AdmiralKanos]

My theory explains everything yours explains apart from the second fight which I can easily puut down to the Borg trying to attack again or 8472 investigating our galaxy (it was in he Beta quadant - not in Borg space).

And it doesn't occur to you that it's probably one of those little scout convoys I was talking about?

You theory requires everyone in Prey to have not enough info on the Fluidic space to know wether it would work or not.

Your theory requires that they have complete understanding of this phenomenon and that we read all sorts of knowledge and intent into their dialogue. My theory requires that they have incomplete understanding of this phenomenon (far more likely than complete understanding, quite frankly), and it doesn't matter what we read into their dialogue. Yours requires subjective interpretation. Mine does not. It sticks to what we observe.

Then you try and tell us 8472 cant even roam over Borg space which we see them doing.

Sure, they can roam over Borg space. At warp speed. What they can't do is open up holes anywhere they want across the entire galaxy. Stop putting words in my mouth.

Where do you get these millions of Bioships from? 1000s is a much more reasonable figure based on evidence yet more evidence you distort.

Ok, thousands. You're nitpicking a figure I was deliberately trying to ridicule; neat rhetorical trick. The point remains: if your claims about their abilities were valid, they could have crushed the Borg with 8 ships, and left the rest in reserve.

You also have the Borg comeing up with a new weapon - once again with no evidence.

Repetition of your earlier strawman: this is an old weapon, undoubtedly found in every civilization they have ever assimilated. Your refusal to address that point represents tacit admission that you have no answer. Concession accepted.

It isnt for Intel gathering - its for infiltration, why? because they dont the feds to use the nano weapons against them.

Of course, which is precisely what I'm saying. You, on the other hand, are saying that they had to hold up their entire war against the Borg pending intel data on the Federation, which makes no sense at all. This was not an intel operation; it was an infiltration operation. And it had nothing to do with the Borg, so why didn't they turn up the heat on them before the Borg found some way to duplicate what the Feddies did? I reiterate: S8472 has no reason whatsoever to go easy on the Borg. You have utterly failed to provide a reason; your "retreat and gather intel" reasoning is a joke; they have obviously learned well before this time that the Federation is not going to interfere with their war against the Borg and that Voyager is long gone from Borg space. Yet they do nothing ... why? And don't say "they're gathering intel". That's bullshit; you gather intel in war but you don't hold up an entire military campaign against nation A for two years because you want to infiltrate nation B which has no allegiance to nation A. They might not have known this in the first 24 hours after the deployment of the weapon, but you can bet it shouldn't have taken two years to figure it out.

Use also requires a secret convoy heading through Borg space without the Borg batting an eyelid - do they have some sort of super stealth, yet something else that you conjure up.

No, they don't. The Borg attack their convoys, hence the skirmish alluded to in Unimatrix Zero.

You cant be convnced that 8472 are anything other than cowards by anything sort of ..... actually you cant be convinced.

Sure I can. They're not cowards if they're weak. Under my theory, they eventually recovered their nerve and made dangerous incursions into and through Borg space, and eventually reached a stalemate with the Borg. But of course, this doesn't work under your scenario where they could squash the Borg without batting an eyelash but choose not to.

In the end, your theory relies on a lot of bizarre and purely voluntary choices on everyone's behalf. My theory relies on every entity acting naturally, and using what few options are available to them.

Your compex and weird theories have yet to convince me why I should alter canon statements into hyperbole and misconstrue peoples actions and limit their knowledge just to fit in with it.

Bullshit. I take the simple route: if they never do something despite obvious motivation, they probably can't. You take the convoluted route: if they never do something despite obvious motivations, that's probably because they choose not to, and you try to shore that up with preferred interpretations of dialogue. Puh-lease ...

[AdmiralKanos]

Darkling I've read this entire debate and you've consistently failed to address many of the points that DW has made; that's extremely poor form. Why bother arguing if you just say the same thing AGAIN and AGAIN and don't even attempt to rebut?

So tedious ...

Well, he's probably not going to give up, but I have lost the patience for saying the same thing over and over, in the vain hope that he'll finally get around to addressing it on the fifth or sixth repetition.

I can't continue this pace of debate any longer; my contractor is showing up again tomorrow, and all hell is breaking loose. Let him declare victory by default or try to get the last word with some more attempts to contradict individual points with mutually inconsistent arguments. I don't believe that anyone who has the patience to wade through the whole mess will agree with his various inconsistent "they don't do <insert S8472 feat here> despite the obvious motivation because they choose not to do it, not because they can't" arguments.

[Patrick Ogaard]

Patrick, off the top of my head, the best example of warp beam-weapon engagement I can think of is an episode whose name I cannot even recall. When Sisko and co. were on the captured Jem'Hadar ship and en route to the Ketracel White facility, one of Sisko's friends engaged them and forced them out of warp in a Reliant-class vessel. During the engagement, pursuit, and ultimate counter-attack by REAL Jem'Hadar, both sides used beam weapons at warp-speed, though never at targets that were not moving at warp.

I'll have a look at the episode as soon as I have the time to dig it out. If it turns out that everyone was indeed tooling around at warp, then that's more than canon enough for me.

[Kamakazie Sith]

Patrick, off the top of my head, the best example of warp beam-weapon engagement I can think of is an episode whose name I cannot even recall. When Sisko and co. were on the captured Jem'Hadar ship and en route to the Ketracel White facility, one of Sisko's friends engaged them and forced them out of warp in a Reliant-class vessel. During the engagement, pursuit, and ultimate counter-attack by REAL Jem'Hadar, both sides used beam weapons at warp-speed, though never at targets that were not moving at warp.

I'll have a look at the episode as soon as I have the time to dig it out. If it turns out that everyone was indeed tooling around at warp, then that's more than canon enough for me.

The warp engagement from VGR "Message in the Bottle" is pretty decent. I apologize if that has already been brought up.

Master of Ossus, that was not a Miranda class starship it was a Centaur IIRC class starship. It however, was not a Miranda class. Just a FYI

[Gil Hamilton]

At first S8472 was able to kill borg cubes with one blast.....but that change later on in the episode.

It now takes mutiple blasts to kill a borg cube, and to kill Voyager.....

Voyager now has a weapon that can kill with one shot, and another weapon that can kill multiple targets with one shot.

In infantry..this might be acceptable but when it comes to ships, it is not. You don't want to needlessly sacrifice your ships just to overpower what may be one of many. You'd want to approach differently.

And even if this is true, would you give a full retreat? S8472 still has massive strategic superiority on the Borg and Voyager. They can still dictate where every battle happens and arrange to always have vastly superior numbers at the battle. They can still strike and destroy Borg planets, and their for their industrial base, with impunity. If they can destroy a ship in one shot, so what? In a battle that can include hundreds of ships, losing a few is very acceptable. Even with the new weapon, the Borg defeat is inevitiable.
Besides, Voyager wouldn't be that hard a target for S8472. Tail her and when she stops somewhere, a few S8472 pop out of their singularities behind her. The only thing that could save Voyager would be character shielding at that point. I doubt Voyager would even get a shot off. Besides, it would be worth it to destroy a ship that would be distributing weapons to future foes.

[Kamakazie Sith]

At first S8472 was able to kill borg cubes with one blast.....but that change later on in the episode.

It now takes mutiple blasts to kill a borg cube, and to kill Voyager.....

Voyager now has a weapon that can kill with one shot, and another weapon that can kill multiple targets with one shot.

In infantry..this might be acceptable but when it comes to ships, it is not. You don't want to needlessly sacrifice your ships just to overpower what may be one of many. You'd want to approach differently.

And even if this is true, would you give a full retreat? S8472 still has massive strategic superiority on the Borg and Voyager. They can still dictate where every battle happens and arrange to always have vastly superior numbers at the battle. They can still strike and destroy Borg planets, and their for their industrial base, with impunity. If they can destroy a ship in one shot, so what? In a battle that can include hundreds of ships, losing a few is very acceptable. Even with the new weapon, the Borg defeat is inevitiable.
Besides, Voyager wouldn't be that hard a target for S8472. Tail her and when she stops somewhere, a few S8472 pop out of their singularities behind her. The only thing that could save Voyager would be character shielding at that point. I doubt Voyager would even get a shot off. Besides, it would be worth it to destroy a ship that would be distributing weapons to future foes.

I dunno Gil.....it's really hard to say. I guess it would depend on the strategic situation.

We really have no idea of the extend of their losses and industrial capacity and what the borgs status was.

I simply feel they were shocked by the speed at which the crew of Voyager adapted to their technology...which before this they obviously knew was vastly superior.

[Gil Hamilton]

I dunno Gil.....it's really hard to say. I guess it would depend on the strategic situation.

We really have no idea of the extend of their losses and industrial capacity and what the borgs status was.

I simply feel they were shocked by the speed at which the crew of Voyager adapted to their technology...which before this they obviously knew was vastly superior.

The strategic situation for the Borg was grim and stated to be grim. Remember what Guinan said in "Q Who?" regarding the Borg? She said that there was no negotiating with them, there was no peace with them. Yet, after S8472 destroying a handful of planets and a few hundred cubes, the Borg were willing to cut a deal with Voyager. Given what Guinan said, the Borg much have been in pretty horrible shape if they were willing to do what Guinan claimed they never do.

Secondly, they retreated immediately after Voyager tried out the new weapons on those few ships. Since they hadn't distributed the weapon yet, the Borg were still at the point they they couldn't do jack and squat to S8472 in a straight fight, so S8472s losses couldn't have been that severe. As for their industry, all of that was in fluidic space, where the Borg couldn't touch it. After all, the Borg incursion into that space was stated to be annhiliated. This reeks of their lack of wang. Someone deals out a few causalities to them and they suspended their missions entirely. That's why they were cowards. They could have easily diverted a few ships to destroy Voyager and continued to destroy the Borg, but they tucked their tentacles between their legs and ran back to their home pond, abandoning even their own comrades in their rush.

Finally, their technology was still superior. Voyager developed a magic bullet, but that still doesn't change the fact that S8472 could have sent a few ships to sally out of their singularites when Voyager is unprepared and blow it to pieces before Voyager can return fire.

[Patrick Ogaard]

Patrick, off the top of my head, the best example of warp beam-weapon engagement I can think of is an episode whose name I cannot even recall. When Sisko and co. were on the captured Jem'Hadar ship and en route to the Ketracel White facility, one of Sisko's friends engaged them and forced them out of warp in a Reliant-class vessel. During the engagement, pursuit, and ultimate counter-attack by REAL Jem'Hadar, both sides used beam weapons at warp-speed, though never at targets that were not moving at warp.

I'll have a look at the episode as soon as I have the time to dig it out. If it turns out that everyone was indeed tooling around at warp, then that's more than canon enough for me.

Found it!

"A Time to Stand"

The three Jem'Hadar fighters that pursued the Centaur at warp did not fire any shots in visuals. The only visual of a shot being fired at warp was a single torpedo launched by the Centaur at Sisko's ship. After the torpedo shot both ships drop out of warp and duke it out with beam weapons.

There was plenty of shaking of the bridge of the Jem'Hadar ship under Sisko's command, showing that the Centaur was scoring hits at warp, but without a beam visual it seems that the Centaur was simply lobbing torpedoes at a fleeing enemy.

"Message in a Bottle" from Voyager I don't have, as far as I know, but I'm still looking. Maybe I did not get rid of it when I disposed of the majority of my Voyager tapes.

[TheDarkling]

I just took at look at Message in a bottle and a phaser battle does take place at warp.

[Typhonis 1]

S8472 Has no reason to fear the Enpire or attack it.from the voyager episodes they were fighting the Borg because the Borg invaded there space.and as stated by some in this board The Empire cannot enter Fluidic Space Ego S8472 has no reaason to fight them ,why would they bother,heck does the Empire even know they exists???

[Crown]

No offence, but haven't we already put this thread to bed when we showed that the Empire was well versed at creating/manipulating nano tech into viruses? Ergo S-8472 just run away like ala la Voyager eps?