You vs. the Alpha Quadrant

Shadow · Post by **Shadow** » 2002-07-10 08:41pm

Mr Bean wrote:You lack of knowledge of Quantum Mechanics is astounding,
Now the normal person knows jack shit about QM but you seem to be under the drugged out impression that you indeed have some knowledge of the subject, To further call things a read herring when its obvious to everyone here you have no #$^#^ clue what your talking about
Quantum singularity-Is yes a minture black hole, But then agian its a black hole at the QUANTUM level IE Atoms and compounds

http://www.eps.org/aps/meet/APR01/baps/ ... 10004.html
Containts a full definition, Its convulted but it fills our needs

Basicly your talking about a Black hole smaller than the size of head of a pin
This is not some awe inspinering massive thing. In fact its barley noticble and somewhat(In theory as we have not run across any in RL yet) very short lived

Lets say these Bio Ships are 100 meters long by 100 Meters Wide(A little on the low end but it makes the point ever so clear) Now our Quantum Signulatry lets say is 1mm by 1 mm(And even then thats rather big of a Quantum Sig)

Even given small ships without any rough callculations we can see the Ships are going to be around 10k bigger(Area wise) then the Quantum Sigularty nothing at all that will discrat the planet

Theres a bit of an education learn from it

They obviously changed the definition to mean a normal black hole that has collapsed from a star.

Realy? And they are watching the Federation how? Oh yes and why would the Empire care about a weak enemy that ran away?

They probably check what is happening in the Milky Way, in case anything important happens. They would notice the Empire fighting several nations at once.

I won't quote the next one but to simply say this, If it can have a cracked event Horizon its not a black hole, The EVENT Horizon is the point at which light can no longer escape the Holes Gravity thus the black part of the Black Hole. You can't have a crack in it any more than you can Melt Gold at 1 ATM and 10 *C

It is possible in Star Trek. Real physics do not apply. This like claiming the Death Star does not work because they could not generate enough power.

Where does this brillant bit of logic come from? Thats as close to cause I said so you come without saying it. Wormholes can do anything we want them to for the simple reason they are for the moment still an Invention of Sci-Fi and we have no idea what laws govern them

All wormholes in Star trek have not connected to another universe.

So has quite a bit of other things have blocked Tractor beams and you can't SHIELD yourself from Gravity no more than you can shield a human from having to breath

It is possible in Star Trek.

Like any old Normal BIO Ship?
Hint to the wise SW does not have any Bio-Ships
You might as well say Well they can just land on the South Lawn of the White House Hop out and go for a stroll
Second you still have not provided any evidance they could even USE the COMPUTRIZED code!
Keep in mind they are not Running Windows 98 on those Bio-Ships they can't just pop a disk into the side of the organic goo and hope to read it, These are not PHISICAL things

That species in NJO has biological ships. Why are they going to complain because of a bio-ship? They just send the message to ship with a subspace communication.

Grand Admiral Thrawn · Post by **Grand Admiral Thrawn** » 2002-07-10 08:45pm

Shadow wrote:They would be concerned they might find out about them when they conquer the Federation.

How? Only Voyager knows about them and they're stuck in the Delta Quadrant.

It is a red herring because it was stated to be a black hole, and quantum singularity is the term for minurature black holes.

It's not a black hole if it doesn't have the same properties as a black hole! As in a physical event horizon.

if it was not the same universe, thw wormhole wouldn't link to it.

Who made you the expert on wormholes?

ST and SW are different universes.

B5 and ST are different universes.

Grand Admiral Thrawn · Post by **Grand Admiral Thrawn** » 2002-07-10 08:46pm

John Clark wrote:Last, they don't attack because they perceive a threat. They perceive ALL life outside of Fluidic Space as a threat, and thus their (PLAINLY STATED) intention is to purge all life from this galaxy. That would INCLUDE any Imperial ships unlucky enough to be here.

Wrong. That changed in the episode where Chacokay infiltrates them.

John Clark · Post by **John Clark** » 2002-07-10 08:47pm

People seem to refuse to see the point of my last post.

8472 doesn't CARE who the Empire is. They don't CARE what the Empire wants. The Empire is an aggressive association. 8472 target aggressive ships.

Empire=aggressive.
8472=beats on aggressive ships.

One more time:
Empire=aggressive
8472=attack the aggressive,
SO
8472 ATTACK The Empire BECAUSE Empire=aggressive

Anyone still able to refuse to understand that?

John Clark · Post by **John Clark** » 2002-07-10 08:49pm

Wrong. That changed in the episode where Chacokay infiltrates them

Wrong yourself. That changed the minds of A FEW members of 8472, and no one can say permanently so.

John Clark · Post by **John Clark** » 2002-07-10 08:50pm

Next, Thrawn, even you should recognize the fact that, if anything, Chakotay's interaction with 8472 would not have changed that species' natural aggressive tendencies -- at most, it would only make them sympathetic to humans. Non-aggressive, non-threatening humans.

Grand Admiral Thrawn · Post by **Grand Admiral Thrawn** » 2002-07-10 08:53pm

John Clark wrote:Next, Thrawn, even you should recognize the fact that, if anything, Chakotay's interaction with 8472 would not have changed that species' natural aggressive tendencies -- at most, it would only make them sympathetic to humans. Non-aggressive, non-threatening humans.

You still haven't shown they'd attack the Empire. And the Empire may be agressive but they're not a threat:

1. The only knowledge of 8472 comes from Voyager.
2. The Empire cannot enter fluidic space.

John Clark · Post by **John Clark** » 2002-07-10 08:58pm

The only knowledge of 8472 comes from Voyager? And that means, what? That 8472 will only INTERACT with Voyager?

And so what if the Imps don't enter Fluidic Space? 8472 came OUT of Fluidic Space to attack the Borg!

Last, you're missing the "threat" thing once again. Imperial ships contain living beings. 8472 are out to DESTROY ALL LIFE IN OUR GALAXY!

So! ARE THE IMPERIALS ALIVE?

Grand Admiral Thrawn · Post by **Grand Admiral Thrawn** » 2002-07-10 09:04pm

John Clark wrote:The only knowledge of 8472 comes from Voyager? And that means, what? That 8472 will only INTERACT with Voyager?

So the Imperials will have no knowledge of 8472. therefore, not a threat.

And so what if the Imps don't enter Fluidic Space? 8472 came OUT of Fluidic Space to attack the Borg!

Liar. The Borg attacked first.

Last, you're missing the "threat" thing once again. Imperial ships contain living beings. 8472 are out to DESTROY ALL LIFE IN OUR GALAXY!

So! ARE THE IMPERIALS ALIVE?

I say again, that attitude changed.

Shadow · Post by **Shadow** » 2002-07-10 09:11pm

Grand Admiral Thrawn wrote:How? Only Voyager knows about them and they're stuck in the Delta Quadrant.

They got back.

It's not a black hole if it doesn't have the same properties as a black hole! As in a physical event horizon.

The event horizon need not be physical.

Who made you the expert on wormholes?

ST and SW are different universes.

B5 and ST are different universes.

Wormholes have always linked to the same universe.

As for all this about how you think S8472 wouldn't attack the Empire, does this mean you believe the Empire would lose?

So the Imperials will have no knowledge of 8472. therefore, not a threat.

Voyager got home.

I say again, that attitude changed.

They are very paraniod and zenophobic. The threat of the Empire discovering their existance would make them attack.

Darth Yoshi · Post by **Darth Yoshi** » 2002-07-10 09:15pm

Shadow wrote:That species in NJO has biological ships.

Red herring. The Yuuzhan Vong are the only existing species in Star Wars with bio-ships, and they're hostile, extra-galactic zealots. If you bring them in, then the Empire whoever's stationed on Tatooine will blast the 8472 ship thinking it's Vong.

Grand Admiral Thrawn · Post by **Grand Admiral Thrawn** » 2002-07-10 09:16pm

Shadow wrote:They got back.

Wrong. This is pre-Dominion was so the Federation and such are not devestated by losses.

The event horizon need not be physical.

It CANNOT BE PHYSICAL!

Wormholes have always linked to the same universe.

Have not. ST vs B5.

As for all this about how you think S8472 wouldn't attack the Empire, does this mean you believe the Empire would lose?

No, mearly no battle is neccary.

Voyager got home.

See above..

They are very paraniod and zenophobic. The threat of the Empire discovering their existance would make them attack.

Why? They can't reach them. And if it was such a threat, Voyager would have been destroyed.

Shadow · Post by **Shadow** » 2002-07-10 09:37pm

Grand Admiral Thrawn wrote:Wrong. This is pre-Dominion was so the Federation and such are not devestated by losses.

The latest time Star Trek has been seen is the end of "Endgame," which makes it the "current" Star Trek.

Have not. ST vs B5.

Star Trek has never linked to Babylon 5.

Why? They can't reach them. And if it was such a threat, Voyager would have been destroyed.

They already hate humans. If they see a violent new empire of humans that are going to find out about them, they would attack.

IDMR · Post by **IDMR** » 2002-07-10 09:38pm

John Clark wrote:People seem to refuse to see the point of my last post.

8472 doesn't CARE who the Empire is. They don't CARE what the Empire wants. The Empire is an aggressive association. 8472 target aggressive ships.

Empire=aggressive.
8472=beats on aggressive ships.

One more time:
Empire=aggressive
8472=attack the aggressive,
SO
8472 ATTACK The Empire BECAUSE Empire=aggressive

Anyone still able to refuse to understand that?

The part which is difficult to understand is this: How in seven herb and spices would that specie 8472 even know of the existence of the Empire?

I can say that the Empire freely commits genocide and is clearly the enemy of the Culture, too!

Zoink · Post by **Zoink** » 2002-07-10 10:16pm

Quantum Singularity

A quantum singularity is indeed a tiny black hole. Although tiny doesn't really do it justice, subatomic is more accurate. There are also theories that similarly tiny wormholes could exist.

I suspect that the Trek writer's thinking is something like this:

The bioships create a quantum singularity (QS), which should be fairly easy, as it shouldn't be too long before we're making them in particle accelerators. This singularity is used to create a wormhole linking fluidic space and our own dimension.

Normally a QS "evaporates" almost instantaneously, so the bioships must sustain and then enlarge it (large amounts of negative energy would be required). The wormhole would be enlarged to allow ships to pass through, then, it would collapse once the negative energy is turned off.

8472 target aggressive ships

What is this based on? 'Scorpion' implied that they target the weak: "the weak shall perish". And, from my own recollection, the episode with Chakotey, showed us that species 8472 thought the federation was aligned with the borg. Once Janeway proved otherwise (by giving nanite tech), they no longer wanted to fight the federation.

The impression I got was this:

Janeway was completely in error regarding species 8472. She jumped to the conclusion that 8472 was a greater threat than the borg. She based this on a few limited encounters in which she failed to establish contact. Kes got the thoughts "the weak shall perish" and "its an invasion"... from a few (one?) alien pilot. Janeway stereotyped the entire race based on this limited encounter. Species 8472 was currently engaged in a war against the borg, and the aliens she encoutered were soldiers in a battle... the thought that these soldier's thoughts might be a little overly agressive didn't occur to Janeway.

The episode with Chakotey showed the species 8472 was not planning on destroying the entire galaxy, only destroying the borg and its allies. Had Janeway followed first contact procedures, and persisted in attempts to communicate regardless of a few culture misunderstandings (as she did with the Chakotey episode) she might have found a valuable allie to destroy the borg once and for all.

John Clark · Post by **John Clark** » 2002-07-11 12:31am

So the Imperials will have no knowledge of 8472. therefore, not a threat.
All that that means is that the Imperials are not a threat to 8472. You don't get it. 8472 are out to destroy ALL LIFE, whether it threatens them directly or not.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

And so what if the Imps don't enter Fluidic Space? 8472 came OUT of Fluidic Space to attack the Borg!

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Liar. The Borg attacked first. Red herring. Are you denying that 8472 entered normal space?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Last, you're missing the "threat" thing once again. Imperial ships contain living beings. 8472 are out to DESTROY ALL LIFE IN OUR GALAXY!

So! ARE THE IMPERIALS ALIVE?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I say again, that attitude changed.

And I {/i] say again, that attitude changed in the minds of A FEW INDIVIDUALS, NOT THE ENTIRE SPECIES.

Typhonis 1 · Post by **Typhonis 1** » 2002-07-11 01:36am

phase one :Intelligence and espionage time allocated 1 year..first set up a false colony somewhere in the Alpha quadrant and make contact.when Ferengio find out about a new market buy or trasde info with them begin to gather intel on the major powers of the are have minor ships guard planet to give flse im[ression of navy strength. Phase two :assign targets and increase espionage activities time alloted 1 year. send out probots to check maps begin training of troops to face the major powers troops most importantly develop techs that may have bneen located like Omega molecule>whioch can be foun when they speak of an area in Federation where warp drive doesnt work, deploy troops for first strike Phase three First strike time alloted one week have naval elements jump in and assault targets on Federation broders with romulansd and Klingons when ships go to aid the colonies immediately strike all major starbases in the area,strike the subspace network destroying it assault Earth,Mars,Starbase 74 to destroy there main abillity to resist phase four consolidation 1 year consolidate gains and integrate them carefully reduce rebellious tartgets with orbital bombardment and beguin research into newe tech that could have been gained,note Genesis device will allow for GREATER use of BDZ since afterwards the target can be terraformed back to a livable planet . By the time the wormhole opens once more the Federation will be Imperial territory though the proicess is a bit slow by some standards its better to be safe than sorry.

Grand Admiral Thrawn · Post by **Grand Admiral Thrawn** » 2002-07-11 08:29am

Quote right!!!!

John Clark wrote: All that that means is that the Imperials are not a threat to 8472. You don't get it. 8472 are out to destroy ALL LIFE, whether it threatens them directly or not.

THEY WHY HAVEN'T THEY?! WHY DO THEY SIT IN FLUIDIC SPACE?!

Red herring. Are you denying that 8472 entered normal space?

That's like saying America will invade Europe because they sent troops their and conquered territory during WWII

And I {/i] say again, that attitude changed in the minds of A FEW INDIVIDUALS, NOT THE ENTIRE SPECIES.

HYPOCRITE! The attitude to kill all life CAME from ONE PERSON!

8472 has done nothing. They sit in fluidic space, safe from everyone.

Grand Admiral Thrawn · Post by **Grand Admiral Thrawn** » 2002-07-11 08:30am

Shadow wrote: The latest time Star Trek has been seen is the end of "Endgame," which makes it the "current" Star Trek.

Debates aren't always the current time are they?

Star Trek has never linked to Babylon 5.

It's never been linked to SW either! THEY ARE TWO DIFFERENT UNIVERSES!

They already hate humans. If they see a violent new empire of humans that are going to find out about them, they would attack.

You STILL HAVEN'T PROVED THEY HATE HUMANS!

Cpt_Frank · Post by **Cpt_Frank** » 2002-07-11 08:42am

GAT, you're totally missing the point of the discussion.
He doesn't need to prove that S8472 hates humans.
Remember the first law of debating:
If someone keeps on saying something over and over again, then of course it becomes an inevitable truth.

Grand Admiral Thrawn · Post by **Grand Admiral Thrawn** » 2002-07-11 08:46am

Cpt_Frank wrote:GAT, you're totally missing the point of the discussion.
He doesn't need to prove that S8472 hates humans.
Remember the first law of debating:
If someone keeps on saying something over and over again, then of course it becomes an inevitable truth.

That or I press the CLOSE THREAD button.

Cpt_Frank · Post by **Cpt_Frank** » 2002-07-11 08:57am

No need to do that.
Not now, where it's finally getting fun.

David · Post by **David** » 2002-07-11 12:54pm

The mod syndrome has finally sunk in. He's gone power mad. Time to put him down.

Antediluvian · Post by **Antediluvian** » 2002-07-11 05:09pm

Shadow and John Clark: Why do you keep insisting that S8472 will attack the Empire? The Empire is no threat to them, doesn't know of their existence, and can't reach them. What's the point?

For that matter, why would they even worry about what happens in the Milky Way anyway? They've got their own universe to think about.

Grand Admiral Thrawn · Post by **Grand Admiral Thrawn** » 2002-07-11 05:11pm

Antediluvian wrote:Shadow and John Clark: Why do you keep insisting that S8472 will attack the Empire? The Empire is no threat to them, doesn't know of their existence, and can't reach them. What's the point?

For that matter, why would they even worry about what happens in the Milky Way anyway? They've got their own universe to think about.

Don't even bother. They won't listen.

StarDestroyer.Net BBS

You vs. the Alpha Quadrant

conquest of the Alpha Quadrant